Drinkwater great work rate, great quality
I think much of the problem with Jermaine Beckford is that he's good, but is not good /enough/ to get away with the lack of effort he puts in at times. When he tries hard, he's among the best strikers in the division. When he doesn't, you're better of playing someone average who tries hard.
I do think we have a problem with Beckford now, caused by keeping him in limbo on deadline day. Showing him that his future is elsewhere does not provide any motivation for him to try hard for the club, as suggested by his woeful outing against Blackpool. If he's not going to try hard, he's not worth playing.
If he had gone to Huddersfield, I'm sure there would have been a debate about the merits of the move and I'm sure many wouldn't have liked it. (It may still happen of course.) I don't buy the idea that the DJ Campbell loan to Blackpool was a disaster - it didn't affect our season one jot in the end and never really looked likely to. The main problem I would see with it was that it left our squad a quality striker light - Schlupp's a tryer but hasn't stepped up to the division yet, Waghorn is... well we all know what Waghorn is by now, and in Futacs' one outing so far he looked like a donkey. So we could really do with a fit and motivated Beckford to create genuine competition for places up front. However, the very fact that the deal was on the cards means that he's mentally gone if not physically, so we've managed to shoot ourselves in both feet.
Personally, I think the question of whether Beckford would ever be appropriately motivated here is a matter for a different debate. I like the idea that he'd stay and be verging on twenty goals a season for us - and if he tried hard and had the right attitude he'd stand a chance. However, I'm struggling to see how that's possible any longer.
“The main problem I would see with it was that it left our squad a quality striker light.”
------------------------------------------------------------
I would agree with this. Whatever the debate on Beckford I’d still be worried about being reliant on Waggy, Schlupp and Futacs as back up. I’m hoping that the reason the deal fell through was that we couldn’t secure a replacement as at least that would demonstrate that we are looking for one.
I don't think Beckford is "quality" at all. He shows moments of quality, but on that basis you could suggest that Gallagher is better than Messi!
I don't buy any argument of quality vs graft. I Jude a player purely on what he brings to the team. "quality" for me is the positive impact a player has on a game.
I'm not sure I've seen Beckford bring anything!
I'm happy to take the argument that we don't play to his strengths - I don't think we do. It just shows he's not very adaptable also!!
So to summarise my post above Joby..
... I agree with what you've said.
It's all about the package.
“It's all about the package.”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that’s it Mersey.
What prompted me to write the article was that I’ve seen it said or written in so many places that Beckford has quality and that people who can’t see it are not sufficiently schooled in the subtleties of the game to notice; that they can only see the more obvious attributes of someone with a high work rate. Yet the majority of players that we universally agree are good tend to have a bit of both quality and effort.
Certainly I’ve seen a few players who’ve been overrated in the past for their high endeavour, but I really don’t see this as the case with Beckford. In summarising a few other players you can quickly demonstrate that there are players that have high work rate, but low quality, that are not fans favourites – and there are many more examples you could use.
Currently all the evidence that Beckford is a quality player comes from his performances with other teams (mostly Leeds in League 1). I tend to want him to stay and I tend to really want him to put in the performances that will prove the doubters (including me) wrong.
There is speculation that NP can’t manage him or that the fans are on his back (which is a debate for another article on another day). Whatever the reasons for it I would contend that, purely based on his performances for us, JB hasn’t been quite good enough.
I'm one of those that believed JB had the qualities to be a good striker for us, yet the more I see of him I'm wondering if maybe i was wrong.
He has a great first touch-when he wants to.
Shooting is excellent-just not very often.
Heading(this season) has been good-why does he not do it more often?
Passing-hit and miss
One thing he does have is movement-this is excellent
The point I'm trying to make is that he has the quality there, but for some reason he just doesn't show it for us.
Is this because he never wanted to be here from day one? We can't say for sure but I think it's best for both parties to call it a day- however, his agent has come out today and said he is not going out on loan anymore.
I wouldn't want him to go unless we brought in a replacement though, I'm afraid waghorn just isn't up to the standard we need ATM, Fuctas can be useful but not Reliable enough as first choice. Schlupp- well I thought he looked better as a left back ha!
I do see a few rumours linking us with kenweyne jones-he has not been included in stokes 25 man squad- good loan signing imo
Great News Becky stays and the haters get to wathc his silky skills.
He can hardly prove the doubters wrong if Nige doesn't pick him.
Give Beckford and Nugent a run in the side and let Vardy build up his experience coming on from the bench. That way you will get the best out of all three.
Can't see the Kenwyne-Jones story holding any water. Sound like his agent trying to get him out there.
Kenwyne Jones has been named in their 25 man squad:
http://www.stokecityfc.com/news/article/25-man-squad-announced-355031.aspx
Copy and pasted from their website -
Not included in Premier League 25-man squad
Diego Arismendi, Danny Higginbotham, Matthew Lund, Michael Tonge, Mamady Sidibe
Ive tried googling "Players not named in 25 man squad 2012/13" but I dont think anybody has devised such a list yet - I would be interested to see whos left.
“Great News Becky stays and the haters get to wathc his silky skills.”
------------------
This is the kind of emotive language I’m talking about. Just because you question JB’s ability doesn’t make you a “hater”. I question his ability, but I’m actually a Beckford supporter and desperate for him to do well.
I’m all for differences of opinion as long as it is backed up with reasoned argument. It’s like the people who say that you can’t appreciate the nuances of football if you cannot see that Beckford is a quality player. Your opinion differs from mine so; therefore, you must be wrong.
Beckford has neither at the moment! so he should not get a look in on the starting eleven! When you have a tricky start to a season you can not afford 'luxury' players on the pitch. every single player has to work their hardest!
Iv seen it so many times Beckford getting the ball in our half of the pitch and giving it away cheaply and putting us under so much pressure! He did it against Blackpool and he did it numerous times last season. I thought he was supposed to be an experienced if he has so much quality he wouldn't give the ball away with dreadful passes! He is a player who had a good season in League 1 and has since lived off that!
He got found out at Everton and I bet they laughed all the way to bank when we payed what we did for him and took on his wages!
If he left would I be botherd
No
Was Sven foolish for getting him
Yes
Will we be able to get rid of him easily
No
Have I given him a fair chance
Yes I am one of the first to applaud him onto the pitch as with every player in a Leicester shirt but when a player shows disregard with the effort they put in he might aswell just run around with two fingers up!
If you had a job and showed a lack of quality and effort and you were on his salary you certainly wouldn't last long in that job!
But if he can somehow show any sign of improvement that will benefit Leicester thats great if not he should be moved on quickly, No one player is bigger than the club.
Joby i was being provocative he your Marmite man but why would we want to get rid of a proven goalscorer.
I dont care what anyone one thinks about him i want his goals.
"I dont care what anyone one thinks about him i want his goals."
Amen. Time for him to start scoring some then.
"I dont care what anyone one thinks about him i want his goals"
If we had his goals I don't think we would be havin this debate
We got 15 goals out of him last season whats wrong with that.
9 in 39 league games is only average for an out and out goalscorer!
Nev - what's wrong with it is that it isn't enough given that he wasn't bringing much else to the team. If he puts away 20 league goals, then his other weaknesses can be easier ignored.
As I say, he's good - but not good enough to get away with a more general lack of contribution.
Beckford was an amazingly frustrating player for us, but he gave Leeds supporters the two best moments of the current decade - scoring the winner at Old Trafford and the goal that got us into the Championship on the last day of the 2009-10 season. You could love him and hate him, often in the same game, but there is no doubt he can play on the big occasions. There's just not enough of them in League 1 or the Championship.
True thats not a surprise coming from you but Dung.
how may goals is Waghorn or Schlupp going to get in a season? We have moaned that we don't get goals from our sticker and he gives a number of assists. His partnership with Nug was great.
But i feel he does not fit the stereo type that fans have for that position and is bolshy.
Striker not a Sticker judging by stringy piece true will get his wish and he will be on his way when NP finds someone to have him. After Danns it will be Schmichel and Nugent fter all they where Svens signings to?
"But i feel he does not fit the stereo type that fans have for that position ....... "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's because there is no stereotype. Most fans want a striker to score goals or at least look like he's going to score goals. The level of overall contribution of what a player brings to a team is more pertinent for players who don't score goals.
It would be nice if you could categorically state that Beckford fell into one category or the other!
"judging by stringy piece true will get his wish"
----------------------------------------------------------------
I think that quote by NP couldnt be more obvious that beckford is leaving - I'm sure he said the exact same thing in that Hull City interview the night before he returned to us.
Nev - I'm not saying that Waghorn, Schlupp or Futacs are better because they aren't. A big issue with the potential Beckford transfer is that we don't have the necessary quality up front to replace him. But he certainly shouldn't be the first name on the team sheet either at present because we need more from him than he's currently delivering. (Or delivered for too many games last season.)
It's interesting King had a poor season last season for many reasons i wonder as a fans favorite if he had started poorly this season would he be criticized as both Beckford and Danns?
No IMO but i am interested to see how many of the former successful europrean and international manager are playing for the club next year.......Cue True.....
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Quality or Graft? and the Beckford dilemma
Page 1 of 2
posted on 11/9/12
Drinkwater great work rate, great quality
posted on 11/9/12
I think much of the problem with Jermaine Beckford is that he's good, but is not good /enough/ to get away with the lack of effort he puts in at times. When he tries hard, he's among the best strikers in the division. When he doesn't, you're better of playing someone average who tries hard.
I do think we have a problem with Beckford now, caused by keeping him in limbo on deadline day. Showing him that his future is elsewhere does not provide any motivation for him to try hard for the club, as suggested by his woeful outing against Blackpool. If he's not going to try hard, he's not worth playing.
If he had gone to Huddersfield, I'm sure there would have been a debate about the merits of the move and I'm sure many wouldn't have liked it. (It may still happen of course.) I don't buy the idea that the DJ Campbell loan to Blackpool was a disaster - it didn't affect our season one jot in the end and never really looked likely to. The main problem I would see with it was that it left our squad a quality striker light - Schlupp's a tryer but hasn't stepped up to the division yet, Waghorn is... well we all know what Waghorn is by now, and in Futacs' one outing so far he looked like a donkey. So we could really do with a fit and motivated Beckford to create genuine competition for places up front. However, the very fact that the deal was on the cards means that he's mentally gone if not physically, so we've managed to shoot ourselves in both feet.
Personally, I think the question of whether Beckford would ever be appropriately motivated here is a matter for a different debate. I like the idea that he'd stay and be verging on twenty goals a season for us - and if he tried hard and had the right attitude he'd stand a chance. However, I'm struggling to see how that's possible any longer.
posted on 11/9/12
“The main problem I would see with it was that it left our squad a quality striker light.”
------------------------------------------------------------
I would agree with this. Whatever the debate on Beckford I’d still be worried about being reliant on Waggy, Schlupp and Futacs as back up. I’m hoping that the reason the deal fell through was that we couldn’t secure a replacement as at least that would demonstrate that we are looking for one.
posted on 11/9/12
I don't think Beckford is "quality" at all. He shows moments of quality, but on that basis you could suggest that Gallagher is better than Messi!
I don't buy any argument of quality vs graft. I Jude a player purely on what he brings to the team. "quality" for me is the positive impact a player has on a game.
I'm not sure I've seen Beckford bring anything!
I'm happy to take the argument that we don't play to his strengths - I don't think we do. It just shows he's not very adaptable also!!
posted on 11/9/12
So to summarise my post above Joby..
... I agree with what you've said.
It's all about the package.
posted on 11/9/12
“It's all about the package.”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that’s it Mersey.
What prompted me to write the article was that I’ve seen it said or written in so many places that Beckford has quality and that people who can’t see it are not sufficiently schooled in the subtleties of the game to notice; that they can only see the more obvious attributes of someone with a high work rate. Yet the majority of players that we universally agree are good tend to have a bit of both quality and effort.
Certainly I’ve seen a few players who’ve been overrated in the past for their high endeavour, but I really don’t see this as the case with Beckford. In summarising a few other players you can quickly demonstrate that there are players that have high work rate, but low quality, that are not fans favourites – and there are many more examples you could use.
Currently all the evidence that Beckford is a quality player comes from his performances with other teams (mostly Leeds in League 1). I tend to want him to stay and I tend to really want him to put in the performances that will prove the doubters (including me) wrong.
There is speculation that NP can’t manage him or that the fans are on his back (which is a debate for another article on another day). Whatever the reasons for it I would contend that, purely based on his performances for us, JB hasn’t been quite good enough.
posted on 11/9/12
I'm one of those that believed JB had the qualities to be a good striker for us, yet the more I see of him I'm wondering if maybe i was wrong.
He has a great first touch-when he wants to.
Shooting is excellent-just not very often.
Heading(this season) has been good-why does he not do it more often?
Passing-hit and miss
One thing he does have is movement-this is excellent
The point I'm trying to make is that he has the quality there, but for some reason he just doesn't show it for us.
Is this because he never wanted to be here from day one? We can't say for sure but I think it's best for both parties to call it a day- however, his agent has come out today and said he is not going out on loan anymore.
I wouldn't want him to go unless we brought in a replacement though, I'm afraid waghorn just isn't up to the standard we need ATM, Fuctas can be useful but not Reliable enough as first choice. Schlupp- well I thought he looked better as a left back ha!
I do see a few rumours linking us with kenweyne jones-he has not been included in stokes 25 man squad- good loan signing imo
posted on 11/9/12
Great News Becky stays and the haters get to wathc his silky skills.
posted on 11/9/12
He can hardly prove the doubters wrong if Nige doesn't pick him.
Give Beckford and Nugent a run in the side and let Vardy build up his experience coming on from the bench. That way you will get the best out of all three.
Can't see the Kenwyne-Jones story holding any water. Sound like his agent trying to get him out there.
posted on 12/9/12
Kenwyne Jones has been named in their 25 man squad:
http://www.stokecityfc.com/news/article/25-man-squad-announced-355031.aspx
Copy and pasted from their website -
Not included in Premier League 25-man squad
Diego Arismendi, Danny Higginbotham, Matthew Lund, Michael Tonge, Mamady Sidibe
Ive tried googling "Players not named in 25 man squad 2012/13" but I dont think anybody has devised such a list yet - I would be interested to see whos left.
posted on 12/9/12
“Great News Becky stays and the haters get to wathc his silky skills.”
------------------
This is the kind of emotive language I’m talking about. Just because you question JB’s ability doesn’t make you a “hater”. I question his ability, but I’m actually a Beckford supporter and desperate for him to do well.
I’m all for differences of opinion as long as it is backed up with reasoned argument. It’s like the people who say that you can’t appreciate the nuances of football if you cannot see that Beckford is a quality player. Your opinion differs from mine so; therefore, you must be wrong.
posted on 12/9/12
Beckford has neither at the moment! so he should not get a look in on the starting eleven! When you have a tricky start to a season you can not afford 'luxury' players on the pitch. every single player has to work their hardest!
Iv seen it so many times Beckford getting the ball in our half of the pitch and giving it away cheaply and putting us under so much pressure! He did it against Blackpool and he did it numerous times last season. I thought he was supposed to be an experienced if he has so much quality he wouldn't give the ball away with dreadful passes! He is a player who had a good season in League 1 and has since lived off that!
He got found out at Everton and I bet they laughed all the way to bank when we payed what we did for him and took on his wages!
If he left would I be botherd
No
Was Sven foolish for getting him
Yes
Will we be able to get rid of him easily
No
Have I given him a fair chance
Yes I am one of the first to applaud him onto the pitch as with every player in a Leicester shirt but when a player shows disregard with the effort they put in he might aswell just run around with two fingers up!
If you had a job and showed a lack of quality and effort and you were on his salary you certainly wouldn't last long in that job!
But if he can somehow show any sign of improvement that will benefit Leicester thats great if not he should be moved on quickly, No one player is bigger than the club.
posted on 12/9/12
Joby i was being provocative he your Marmite man but why would we want to get rid of a proven goalscorer.
I dont care what anyone one thinks about him i want his goals.
posted on 12/9/12
"I dont care what anyone one thinks about him i want his goals."
Amen. Time for him to start scoring some then.
posted on 12/9/12
"I dont care what anyone one thinks about him i want his goals"
If we had his goals I don't think we would be havin this debate
posted on 13/9/12
We got 15 goals out of him last season whats wrong with that.
posted on 13/9/12
9 in 39 league games is only average for an out and out goalscorer!
posted on 13/9/12
Nev - what's wrong with it is that it isn't enough given that he wasn't bringing much else to the team. If he puts away 20 league goals, then his other weaknesses can be easier ignored.
As I say, he's good - but not good enough to get away with a more general lack of contribution.
posted on 13/9/12
Beckford was an amazingly frustrating player for us, but he gave Leeds supporters the two best moments of the current decade - scoring the winner at Old Trafford and the goal that got us into the Championship on the last day of the 2009-10 season. You could love him and hate him, often in the same game, but there is no doubt he can play on the big occasions. There's just not enough of them in League 1 or the Championship.
posted on 13/9/12
True thats not a surprise coming from you but Dung.
how may goals is Waghorn or Schlupp going to get in a season? We have moaned that we don't get goals from our sticker and he gives a number of assists. His partnership with Nug was great.
But i feel he does not fit the stereo type that fans have for that position and is bolshy.
posted on 13/9/12
Striker not a Sticker judging by stringy piece true will get his wish and he will be on his way when NP finds someone to have him. After Danns it will be Schmichel and Nugent fter all they where Svens signings to?
posted on 13/9/12
"But i feel he does not fit the stereo type that fans have for that position ....... "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's because there is no stereotype. Most fans want a striker to score goals or at least look like he's going to score goals. The level of overall contribution of what a player brings to a team is more pertinent for players who don't score goals.
It would be nice if you could categorically state that Beckford fell into one category or the other!
posted on 13/9/12
"judging by stringy piece true will get his wish"
----------------------------------------------------------------
I think that quote by NP couldnt be more obvious that beckford is leaving - I'm sure he said the exact same thing in that Hull City interview the night before he returned to us.
posted on 13/9/12
Nev - I'm not saying that Waghorn, Schlupp or Futacs are better because they aren't. A big issue with the potential Beckford transfer is that we don't have the necessary quality up front to replace him. But he certainly shouldn't be the first name on the team sheet either at present because we need more from him than he's currently delivering. (Or delivered for too many games last season.)
posted on 13/9/12
It's interesting King had a poor season last season for many reasons i wonder as a fans favorite if he had started poorly this season would he be criticized as both Beckford and Danns?
No IMO but i am interested to see how many of the former successful europrean and international manager are playing for the club next year.......Cue True.....
Page 1 of 2