he did
he founded the bootroom with Shanks and was an integral part of the success that followed
....................................
Yes Shankly lead and he followed, then took over after Shankly had done the hard work and took all the glory.
Shankly is the one who did the hard job, something only men like him and SAF are capable off...
Paisley may have been capable... but maybe hundreds of other managers could have as well, he never proved himself in this regard.
........................................
we're discussing proper league titles and proper European cups, not victories in a footballing backwater and also ran euro-pots
....................................
Breaking the old firm domination and winning the league up North much harder than strolling in and just continuing Shankly's work which set you on your way...
The CWC and Uefa cup actually contained good teams back in those days, it is why the EC was easier as these days all the good teams just go into the CL with at best the occasional exception.
Could Paisley have built a team up in the same way... possibly but he never needed to and never did. Will always be a mark against him.
------------------------------------------------------------
Paisley's legacy is that the team he built dominated the scene for a further decade after he departed as manager. Dalgish, Neal, Hansen, Lawrenson, Nicol, Whelan, Johnston, Rush, Grobbelaar, Beglin.
No one that I am aware of has left behind a group of players of that stature - and all bar Dalglish and Neal before their prime. Unbelievable.
There is no mark on his card here I am sorry. He left behind one of the finest squads that European football has ever witnessed.
14+4 > 13+1
real trophies, real leagues, real success
I missed out Souness in that list
There is no mark on his card here I am sorry. He left behind one of the finest squads that European football has ever witnessed.
......................................
You misunderstood my point wasn't leaving behind a team for others it was building one up from a relatively unsuccessful place... something Shankly did for him because he simply couldn't have come into the Liverpool job and achieved that success without him..
SAF didn't need a Shankly though, he was Shankly and Paisley all rolled into one...
They are two of the favourites for the runners up spot to him though, not bad
7_The_Arab 20 times #SupportMoyes (U5768
So what you're saying is that Paisley's success was actually because of Shankly? Fair enough - have it your way:
Shankly > Fergie
TKT, Seriously re: Quieroz??? Yes everyone plays their part in success but come on! If that was the case we'd have Quieroz as manager now not Moyes.
It's a pointless debate this. Both did things that the other didn't acheive, and it's pretty pointless using Paisley time as assistant to debate who was the MANAGER. 3 European cups, 6 league titles, 3 league cups UEFA cup and super cup is a remarkable feat by any stretch of the imagination. Any United fan will tell you the same. But there is such a dissmissive nature by a lot of Liverpool fans (mostly the younger generation I might add) about SAFs acheivement that simply because it took him longer to win one less EC it's a matter of fact that Paisley was better (not putting yourself in that bracket I btw). Fergie's acheivments are at the very least were on par with Paisley's, 27 years in charge adapting to changing styles of football and adapting to a new type of footballer, and consistantly winning major hounors throughout those two decades. 13 titles, 2 ECs, 5 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 1 Cup Winners Cup, 1 Super Cup, 1 Intercontinental Cup, 1 Club World Cup.
I would add that a lot of Liverpool fans Don't even rate Paisley as the greatest Liverpool manager of all time, My aunt who lived through the 50's 60's 70's and 80's onwards will always say Shankley was the greatest of all time yet when arguing weather Fergie was the best ever, it's Bob Paisley who most tend argue was the greatest. Why is that?
Greatest managers in English Football history: Top 4
1. Sir Alex Ferguson
2. Bill Shankly
3.Bob Paisley
4. Sir Matt Busby
The only one that comes close to those 4 is Brian Clough
Mumbai we're just playing banter games now
everyone agreed ages ago that it's subjective and you can't definitively qualify who is 'best'
There are the Busby=Shanks > Fergie=Paisley types
The title counters regardless of longevity types (Fergie fanboys)
The major trophies over equivalent time types (paisley fanboys)
The European Cup counters (Bob's clan again)
The won every club medal worth winning (Jose fanboys)
And they're all correct
We're just sniping for a laugh at this point
You misunderstood my point wasn't leaving behind a team for others it was building one up from a relatively unsuccessful place... something Shankly did for him because he simply couldn't have come into the Liverpool job and achieved that success without him..
------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree. Whilst one cannot discount what Shankly had done prior to Paisley. The continued and rapid success of Liverpool from the mid 70s onwards was due to Paisley's purchases. It was he that signed Neal, Dalglish, Terry McDermott, Joey Jones, Alan Kennedy, Alan Hansen and Graeme Souness. The players that formed the teams that dominated europe late 70s early 80s.
Alan Hansen, Kenny Dalglish and Graeme Souness inparticular represented the kind of quality acquisitions that, by rights, should be spread out across a lifetime in the game — if a manager is both incredibly wise and especially lucky. And yet they were all procured within seven months of one another. It’s doubtful that any club in the history of English football has made three such crucial signings in such a short space of time.
Shankly created the dream, Paisley turned it into reality.
When Ferguson took over Manchester United - they were doing badly in the league. But this was not a poor Manchester United team. They had won 2 FA Cups in the past 3 seasons. They had finished 4th in the league in 1985 and had such players as Mark Hughes, Norman Whiteside, Bryan Robson, Gordon Strachan, Paul McGrath, Gary Bailey, Jesper Olsen, Frank Stapleton on the books. They had a very bad start to the 1986 season but was Ferguson starting from a shocking general position? Nope.
We're just sniping for a laugh at this point
.................................
yeah pretty much...
Most of the arguments each way have their merits.
Welshy the club was infected with a drinking culture he had to change from the bottom up, correct me if I am wrong but when he actually took over we were something like 14th in the table.
He didn't just switch around the team a bit he starting completely rebuilding it...
Im gonna call it..
This is the best wum article ever :D 163 comments, its like a giant fishing net!!
i was even laughing while making that excel sheet in anticipation of the response.
S.A.F a great manager, certainly the best of the PL era, but highly arrogant, and factually wrong to call him the best manager EVER its too big a word, covering too long a time frame.
Just being around long enough at one of the wealthiest clubs in the world, inheriting the core of a more than decent, under-achieving team in league terms inc. Englands 'Captain Marvel', having the 2 best Welsh players of their generation, a smattering of established Scottish and Irish internationals, add a dash of the most talented group of youngsters to emerge at one club since the 50s and the ability to splash the cash with impunity in order to plunder the best players from under the noses of his domestic rivals...
The Fergmeister was truly a fantastic operator.
Greatest ever? No, I don't think so.
All opinion will depend on your particular loyalties but I am putting this aside in my assessment and being completely objective.
In summary then:
Ferguson is not the greatest manager ever.
Others have stronger claims for what they did and, crucially, where and how they did it .
if what you say is true Planete then we should be happy that Moyes is guaranteed to carry on with the domination seeing as it wasnt down to the previous manager.
Siempre - Moyes won't get 3 years to win his 1st trophy and certainly won't be given over 6 years to win his first title.
He'll have to hit the ground running for sure!
this is Manchester United you are talking about, the team that just won the league in mid april.
they could win it with no manager
Moyes' challenge will be in the long term, i fully expect this current squad to win the league again. its how he keeps it together and maintains it in the years to come
comment by Siempre Rojo aka tenemos VEINTE (U1560)
posted 29 minutes ago
this is Manchester United you are talking about, the team that just won the league in mid april.
they could win it with no manager
Moyes' challenge will be in the long term, i fully expect this current squad to win the league again. its how he keeps it together and maintains it in the years to come
-------------
wow, there's arrogance for you, unlikely that the team could win it on their own, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered paying ferguson all these years. Have you been smoking the same crack as roman, siempre?
Very different characters too.
Ferguson actually lifted the European cup - something only a captain would do
I could never ever imagine Bob doing that
he will be lifting the Premier League trophy tomorrow too.
Something Paisley didn't do either, nor any Liverpool manager, nor any Liverpool player for that matter
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2322935/Sir-Alex-Ferguson-encouraged-lift-Premier-League-trophy-Manchester-United-players.html
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Trust a mucs fan to post a childish comment like that.
.......................................
Childish?
Factual. Like Leeds being in the championship.
comment by Siempre Rojo aka tenemos VEINTE (U1560)
posted 3 days, 14 hours ago
this is Manchester United you are talking about, the team that just won the league in mid april.
they could win it with no manager
Moyes' challenge will be in the long term, i fully expect this current squad to win the league again. its how he keeps it together and maintains it in the years to come
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well Siempre - it seems that in your mind Fergster wasn't that great after all!!!!!
Fergie changed us from a club going nowhere, to a club that has completely dominated the league for 21 years ( 13 v 3,3,1,1). So for doing that he is great. But once you have reached the summit there is no more climbing to do. Fergie hasn't done much great in the last three seasons and many reds are unhappy with his team selection and lack of a good CM player. But we battered the league with ease. So long term he has been great, short term he really hasn't had to do that much and neither will Moyes.
Fergie loves the spotlight
Imagine all the great managers gone by picking up the trophies before the captain
Sign in if you want to comment
Ferguson best manager ever?
Page 7 of 8
6 | 7 | 8
posted on 10/5/13
he did
he founded the bootroom with Shanks and was an integral part of the success that followed
....................................
Yes Shankly lead and he followed, then took over after Shankly had done the hard work and took all the glory.
Shankly is the one who did the hard job, something only men like him and SAF are capable off...
Paisley may have been capable... but maybe hundreds of other managers could have as well, he never proved himself in this regard.
........................................
we're discussing proper league titles and proper European cups, not victories in a footballing backwater and also ran euro-pots
....................................
Breaking the old firm domination and winning the league up North much harder than strolling in and just continuing Shankly's work which set you on your way...
The CWC and Uefa cup actually contained good teams back in those days, it is why the EC was easier as these days all the good teams just go into the CL with at best the occasional exception.
posted on 10/5/13
Could Paisley have built a team up in the same way... possibly but he never needed to and never did. Will always be a mark against him.
------------------------------------------------------------
Paisley's legacy is that the team he built dominated the scene for a further decade after he departed as manager. Dalgish, Neal, Hansen, Lawrenson, Nicol, Whelan, Johnston, Rush, Grobbelaar, Beglin.
No one that I am aware of has left behind a group of players of that stature - and all bar Dalglish and Neal before their prime. Unbelievable.
There is no mark on his card here I am sorry. He left behind one of the finest squads that European football has ever witnessed.
posted on 10/5/13
14+4 > 13+1
real trophies, real leagues, real success
posted on 10/5/13
I missed out Souness in that list
posted on 10/5/13
There is no mark on his card here I am sorry. He left behind one of the finest squads that European football has ever witnessed.
......................................
You misunderstood my point wasn't leaving behind a team for others it was building one up from a relatively unsuccessful place... something Shankly did for him because he simply couldn't have come into the Liverpool job and achieved that success without him..
SAF didn't need a Shankly though, he was Shankly and Paisley all rolled into one...
They are two of the favourites for the runners up spot to him though, not bad
posted on 10/5/13
7_The_Arab 20 times #SupportMoyes (U5768
So what you're saying is that Paisley's success was actually because of Shankly? Fair enough - have it your way:
Shankly > Fergie
posted on 10/5/13
TKT, Seriously re: Quieroz??? Yes everyone plays their part in success but come on! If that was the case we'd have Quieroz as manager now not Moyes.
It's a pointless debate this. Both did things that the other didn't acheive, and it's pretty pointless using Paisley time as assistant to debate who was the MANAGER. 3 European cups, 6 league titles, 3 league cups UEFA cup and super cup is a remarkable feat by any stretch of the imagination. Any United fan will tell you the same. But there is such a dissmissive nature by a lot of Liverpool fans (mostly the younger generation I might add) about SAFs acheivement that simply because it took him longer to win one less EC it's a matter of fact that Paisley was better (not putting yourself in that bracket I btw). Fergie's acheivments are at the very least were on par with Paisley's, 27 years in charge adapting to changing styles of football and adapting to a new type of footballer, and consistantly winning major hounors throughout those two decades. 13 titles, 2 ECs, 5 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 1 Cup Winners Cup, 1 Super Cup, 1 Intercontinental Cup, 1 Club World Cup.
I would add that a lot of Liverpool fans Don't even rate Paisley as the greatest Liverpool manager of all time, My aunt who lived through the 50's 60's 70's and 80's onwards will always say Shankley was the greatest of all time yet when arguing weather Fergie was the best ever, it's Bob Paisley who most tend argue was the greatest. Why is that?
posted on 10/5/13
Greatest managers in English Football history: Top 4
1. Sir Alex Ferguson
2. Bill Shankly
3.Bob Paisley
4. Sir Matt Busby
The only one that comes close to those 4 is Brian Clough
posted on 10/5/13
Mumbai we're just playing banter games now
everyone agreed ages ago that it's subjective and you can't definitively qualify who is 'best'
There are the Busby=Shanks > Fergie=Paisley types
The title counters regardless of longevity types (Fergie fanboys)
The major trophies over equivalent time types (paisley fanboys)
The European Cup counters (Bob's clan again)
The won every club medal worth winning (Jose fanboys)
And they're all correct
We're just sniping for a laugh at this point
posted on 10/5/13
You misunderstood my point wasn't leaving behind a team for others it was building one up from a relatively unsuccessful place... something Shankly did for him because he simply couldn't have come into the Liverpool job and achieved that success without him..
------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree. Whilst one cannot discount what Shankly had done prior to Paisley. The continued and rapid success of Liverpool from the mid 70s onwards was due to Paisley's purchases. It was he that signed Neal, Dalglish, Terry McDermott, Joey Jones, Alan Kennedy, Alan Hansen and Graeme Souness. The players that formed the teams that dominated europe late 70s early 80s.
Alan Hansen, Kenny Dalglish and Graeme Souness inparticular represented the kind of quality acquisitions that, by rights, should be spread out across a lifetime in the game — if a manager is both incredibly wise and especially lucky. And yet they were all procured within seven months of one another. It’s doubtful that any club in the history of English football has made three such crucial signings in such a short space of time.
posted on 10/5/13
Shankly created the dream, Paisley turned it into reality.
When Ferguson took over Manchester United - they were doing badly in the league. But this was not a poor Manchester United team. They had won 2 FA Cups in the past 3 seasons. They had finished 4th in the league in 1985 and had such players as Mark Hughes, Norman Whiteside, Bryan Robson, Gordon Strachan, Paul McGrath, Gary Bailey, Jesper Olsen, Frank Stapleton on the books. They had a very bad start to the 1986 season but was Ferguson starting from a shocking general position? Nope.
posted on 10/5/13
We're just sniping for a laugh at this point
.................................
yeah pretty much...
Most of the arguments each way have their merits.
Welshy the club was infected with a drinking culture he had to change from the bottom up, correct me if I am wrong but when he actually took over we were something like 14th in the table.
He didn't just switch around the team a bit he starting completely rebuilding it...
posted on 10/5/13
Im gonna call it..
This is the best wum article ever :D 163 comments, its like a giant fishing net!!
i was even laughing while making that excel sheet in anticipation of the response.
S.A.F a great manager, certainly the best of the PL era, but highly arrogant, and factually wrong to call him the best manager EVER its too big a word, covering too long a time frame.
posted on 10/5/13
Just being around long enough at one of the wealthiest clubs in the world, inheriting the core of a more than decent, under-achieving team in league terms inc. Englands 'Captain Marvel', having the 2 best Welsh players of their generation, a smattering of established Scottish and Irish internationals, add a dash of the most talented group of youngsters to emerge at one club since the 50s and the ability to splash the cash with impunity in order to plunder the best players from under the noses of his domestic rivals...
The Fergmeister was truly a fantastic operator.
Greatest ever? No, I don't think so.
All opinion will depend on your particular loyalties but I am putting this aside in my assessment and being completely objective.
In summary then:
Ferguson is not the greatest manager ever.
Others have stronger claims for what they did and, crucially, where and how they did it .
posted on 10/5/13
if what you say is true Planete then we should be happy that Moyes is guaranteed to carry on with the domination seeing as it wasnt down to the previous manager.
posted on 10/5/13
Siempre - Moyes won't get 3 years to win his 1st trophy and certainly won't be given over 6 years to win his first title.
He'll have to hit the ground running for sure!
posted on 10/5/13
this is Manchester United you are talking about, the team that just won the league in mid april.
they could win it with no manager
Moyes' challenge will be in the long term, i fully expect this current squad to win the league again. its how he keeps it together and maintains it in the years to come
posted on 10/5/13
comment by Siempre Rojo aka tenemos VEINTE (U1560)
posted 29 minutes ago
this is Manchester United you are talking about, the team that just won the league in mid april.
they could win it with no manager
Moyes' challenge will be in the long term, i fully expect this current squad to win the league again. its how he keeps it together and maintains it in the years to come
-------------
wow, there's arrogance for you, unlikely that the team could win it on their own, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered paying ferguson all these years. Have you been smoking the same crack as roman, siempre?
posted on 11/5/13
Very different characters too.
Ferguson actually lifted the European cup - something only a captain would do
I could never ever imagine Bob doing that
posted on 11/5/13
he will be lifting the Premier League trophy tomorrow too.
Something Paisley didn't do either, nor any Liverpool manager, nor any Liverpool player for that matter
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2322935/Sir-Alex-Ferguson-encouraged-lift-Premier-League-trophy-Manchester-United-players.html
posted on 11/5/13
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/5/13
Trust a mucs fan to post a childish comment like that.
.......................................
Childish?
Factual. Like Leeds being in the championship.
posted on 14/5/13
comment by Siempre Rojo aka tenemos VEINTE (U1560)
posted 3 days, 14 hours ago
this is Manchester United you are talking about, the team that just won the league in mid april.
they could win it with no manager
Moyes' challenge will be in the long term, i fully expect this current squad to win the league again. its how he keeps it together and maintains it in the years to come
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well Siempre - it seems that in your mind Fergster wasn't that great after all!!!!!
posted on 14/5/13
Fergie changed us from a club going nowhere, to a club that has completely dominated the league for 21 years ( 13 v 3,3,1,1). So for doing that he is great. But once you have reached the summit there is no more climbing to do. Fergie hasn't done much great in the last three seasons and many reds are unhappy with his team selection and lack of a good CM player. But we battered the league with ease. So long term he has been great, short term he really hasn't had to do that much and neither will Moyes.
posted on 14/5/13
Fergie loves the spotlight
Imagine all the great managers gone by picking up the trophies before the captain
Page 7 of 8
6 | 7 | 8