Excellent points, Daredevil.

There is no denying that Red Bull have got a fantastic team put together and the setup they've put together has been paying off big time.

I don't think for one second that other teams are "making fun of the fizzy drinks cars" as you put it. It can be seen in the body language of other teams that they want nothing more than to take down the team that has been making them all look so stupid for the last 3 (going on 4) years.

Although they are a fantastic team, they are by no means perfect.

The Number1/Number2 driver setup looks on paper to be an ideal way of running the show but Red Bull, to me, go about it completely the wrong way.

At Red Bull, the Number 2 driver is alienated and bullied by the team constantly, as if they have to be constantly reminded both on and off the track that the team would rather die than see him finish ahead of their golden boy. Because of this constant harassment, the end of 2013 will see Formula 1 lose one of the greatest drivers never to win a World title.

Not to mention Christian Horner grates on me to no end. In every other team on the grid, when their driver wins a race, it's their engineer on the radio congratulating him. At Red Bull, it's always Horner. He just seems so desperate to make himself heard. He's like a dance or choir teacher who always goes up to collect the trophy himself instead of letting one of the kids go for it.

And finally, how many times have they entered an illegal car and got away with it? I won't say anything here as you've mentioned it several times yourself.

I know I've kind of rambled on here but as good as Red Bull are they just don't sit right with me.

Could just be sour grapes though. :/

You haven't rambled my good man, I share your thoughts about the treatment of Webber. That's why RedBull will not be obtaining the services of Kimi.

As far as I'm concerned, Horner is a troll and a hypocrite. Constantly bending the rules and once someone else tries something similar he's off to the stewards.

They will go down as a great team statistically and probably the most successful F1 team to not have a gifted driver.

I've got someone in my family who works for them who told me ages ago about the almighty strop after Malaysia and I said it then that Webber was leaving.

I was of course called a liar.

Redbull are fantastic team.

i am a big fan of Webber, however to say he is number 2 driver because the just love there goldenboy is absolute tripe. He is number 2, because he isnt as good as Vettel. Like it or lump it, Vettel is a very very good driver, and better than Mark Webber. If Webber was better, he would get the preferential treatment. The fact remains, he just isn't. i really like Mark Webber, but he isn't as good, get over it, and stop being conspiracy theorists!

Is there any evidence to suggest there is no conspiracy

Just when I thought daredevil has had some sense put into him I saw the above 2 comments from him.
I don't understand what problem he has against RBR? I am no RBR fan (force india fan myself) but his incessant digs at anything RBR are embarrassing.

What is wrong with my comments? Their treatment of Webber has been disgraceful and Horner is a hypocrite.

What's wrong with saying that?

Vettel is every bit as good as Hamilton. Like to see Hamilton win in a toro rosso. Cant even win in a Mercedes that his teammate has 2 wins in.

man devil

maybe somebody should tell webber that he has the best car underneath him , that way he might not look so average alot of the time -
maybe somebody should also tell him he is a no 2 as no 2s are not allowed to beat there team mates as webber sometimes has -

come to think off it red bull only started to win when vettel joined the team in 09 -
---------- before that they won a big fat nothing ------------------------------------------------------- i wonder why that was

Winning in a Torro Rosso in changeable conditions is something good but not unique. A lot of drivers have done similar things in the past.

Hamilton will win races for Mercedes, of that there is no doubt. His team mates wins are impressive, especially Monaco but Silverstone wouldn't have happened without the tyres failing or Vettel's car breaking.

Vettel isn't every bit as good as Hamilton, as much as you want to propagate that myth, it's just not true. Something Alonso himself agrees with.

JPB, why haven't you picked a username yet?

man unt devil

just who are all these drivers who have won in changeable conditions in the past in a dog as vettel did -- certainly not hamilton -

you are only winding yourself up more and more by comparing hamilton to vettel because like it or not vettel is doing all the winning and all the time that is happening you will always be on a loser mate -

just make your peace with it manx and accept that vettel will dominate for the next few yrs and save yourself years and years of pain and misery

There used to be a team called Jordan martial, look up their wins.

Why didn't Vettel win more in the Torro Rosso?

man devil

so hill had a very lucky win at spa 98 when the rest of the field decimated itself at the start and HHF won in a jordan in 99 -

as i said manx you are only going to wind yourself up more and more because like it or not vettel is going to do alot and i do mean alot more winning --

just get over it and accept it mate and save yourself years of misery and pain every time he wins

"Winning in a Torro Rosso in changeable conditions is something good but not unique. A lot of drivers have done similar things in the past."

Beltoise, BRM, Monaco 1972, (wet throughout, IIRC, I did watch it, but it was 41 years ago!)
Panis Ligier, Monaco 1996,
Herbert Nurburgring, Stewart 1999,
Peterson, March, Monza 1976,
Jones, Shadow, Austria, 1977,
Hunt Hesketh, Zandvoort, 1975, although that was dry throughout, IIRC, as was, (IIRC, this is a long time ago..)
Watson, Penske, Austria, 1976.
Rosberg, Williams, Monaco, 1983.
to name a few, there are probably many more who slip the memory.

And there have been classic championship finales too, where the World Champion Driver didn't win the race but did win the Championship after brilliant drives in cars losing their competitive edge, funnily enough, they are both McLarens .

Hunt, McLaren, Fuji, 1976.

And of course, another fabulous championship win by an all-time great driver......
Hamilton, McLaren, Interlagos, 2008.