or to join or start a new Discussion

Articles/all comments
These 175227 comments are related to an article called:

Live Election Day Thread

Page 6704 of 7010

posted on 13/1/20

comment by rosso is done with this (U17054)
posted 16 minutes ago
“You can clutch your political pearls about how well individual policies polled in focus groups or YouGov polls as much as you want.”

I’m not talking about individual policies; I’m talking about polling and research on the manifestos.

With respect, again *focussing explicitly on the manifestos in isolation*, there is pretty solid empirical evidence supporting my assertion, and little that I am aware of against.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Which suggests how relevant a manifesto is to how people make choices, and instead its key policies combined with leadership and perception of the party. Labour was soundly rejected on these counts.

posted on 13/1/20

* how irrelevant

posted on 13/1/20

You seem to have totally misread my argument as being about manifestos and arguing we should see Labour embrace dated 90s Blairism.

What I have said is that Labour needs to become a more patriotic party that isn't ashamed of the people it is supposed to be representing, and that if it is to maintain its usual coalition of voters (which is its only way to power) it needs to stop alienating anyone outside of cities or north of the M25.

posted on 13/1/20

comment by rosso is done with this (U17054)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Blue in the face (U22288)
posted 1 hour, 11 minutes ago
comment by rosso is done with this (U17054)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Blue in the face (U22288)
posted 32 seconds ago
Do you actually believe that Corbyn and/or any of the new leadership contenders actually hates the UK?

^ Honestly, I think Corbyn hates Britain. I think he considers the Union to have been a mistake, and that our legacy as a nation is more negative than positive.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow.

So you think he wanted to become PM to destroy the nation from the inside, by breaking it up or otherwise?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I think he wanted to destroy the nation state, and irreversibly change our country - yes. Like Blair did.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Irreversibly change our country how, exactly?

Does Boris want to destroy the nation state in driving a wedge between NI and the mainland, and in implementing policies clearly and stringently opposed by a comfortable majority of Scots strengthening the clamour first independence?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope the Labour response to these questions is more than "Wot aboot Boris?".

posted on 13/1/20

comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 4 minutes ago
I see that the rate at which our oceans are warming INCREASED in 2019.

Far from seeing a slowdown on the amount of heat added each year it seems the issue is getting worse and worse.

With the fires in AUS i expect the next year to be even worse, Perhaps this year the majority of the population will wake up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been reading some interesting stuff about Australia failing to cut its brush territory properly, and aboriginal (if that's the wrong word, I apologise) techniques for managing territories. Not minimising climate change - just curious if there is anything in this...

posted on 13/1/20

Read an interesting piece from US pollster Frank Luntz. Basically argues that 9 out of the last 10 US elections have been resolved by the simple question of "Are you better off now than four years ago?". Nine times out of the last 10 a majority of people say "Yes", the incumbent wins. Every time they say no the opposition leader/party does.

Only exception is Obama in 2012.

Probably simplistic, but interesting nevertheless.

posted on 13/1/20

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

posted on 13/1/20

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/the-us-isnt-as-important-as-the-left-thinks/604642/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

I don't agree with all of this, but Shadi Hamid remains a brilliant, and intellectually credible thinker.

posted on 13/1/20

comment by 4Tsar (U22296)
posted 9 seconds ago
comment by Blue in the face (U22288)
posted 2 minutes ago
Read an interesting piece from US pollster Frank Luntz. Basically argues that 9 out of the last 10 US elections have been resolved by the simple question of "Are you better off now than four years ago?". Nine times out of the last 10 a majority of people say "Yes", the incumbent wins. Every time they say no the opposition leader/party does.

Only exception is Obama in 2012.

Probably simplistic, but interesting nevertheless.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"its the economy, stupid"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah basically, but the key is "perception" of being better off. I am looking for the piece as I read it this morning, but there were one or two occasions were people were worse off but felt better, and one occasion (I think 2000) were they felt worse off, but were actually better.

posted on 13/1/20

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

posted on 13/1/20

I don't criticise Obama's domestic record that much, especially in the first term. I know a lot of progressives and liberals think he should have done more in the two years the Democrats had control of congress and the senate (2008-2010), but I think those two years were the hardest any president has had to face since 1945. Bush gave him a terrible economic inheritance that could have crippled the country and led to another crash.

It's his foreign policy I disagree with.

posted on 13/1/20

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

posted on 13/1/20

comment by Blue in the face (U22288)
posted 28 minutes ago
You seem to have totally misread my argument as being about manifestos and arguing we should see Labour embrace dated 90s Blairism.

What I have said is that Labour needs to become a more patriotic party that isn't ashamed of the people it is supposed to be representing, and that if it is to maintain its usual coalition of voters (which is its only way to power) it needs to stop alienating anyone outside of cities or north of the M25.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t see how Labour is unpatriotic, or how it has unpatriotic policies. Maybe it’s a matter of perception, once again. Can you give me some examples?

I agree that it has to go out and win the argument in the midlands, Wales and the north. It has clearly failed miserably to do that insofar as people’s crosses at the ballot box are concerned.

posted on 13/1/20

comment by Blue in the face (U22288)
posted 32 minutes ago
comment by rosso is done with this (U17054)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Blue in the face (U22288)
posted 1 hour, 11 minutes ago
comment by rosso is done with this (U17054)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Blue in the face (U22288)
posted 32 seconds ago
Do you actually believe that Corbyn and/or any of the new leadership contenders actually hates the UK?

^ Honestly, I think Corbyn hates Britain. I think he considers the Union to have been a mistake, and that our legacy as a nation is more negative than positive.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow.

So you think he wanted to become PM to destroy the nation from the inside, by breaking it up or otherwise?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I think he wanted to destroy the nation state, and irreversibly change our country - yes. Like Blair did.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Irreversibly change our country how, exactly?

Does Boris want to destroy the nation state in driving a wedge between NI and the mainland, and in implementing policies clearly and stringently opposed by a comfortable majority of Scots strengthening the clamour first independence?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope the Labour response to these questions is more than "Wot aboot Boris?".
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Still hoping you can help me understand how Blair irreversibly changed the UK.

posted on 13/1/20

"I don’t see how Labour is unpatriotic, or how it has unpatriotic policies. Maybe it’s a matter of perception, once again. Can you give me some examples?"

The fundamental failing was he had no story to tell about our country, about its achievements, nor about how his policies were in line with making ourselves more proud of where we lived, and of the country we are part of. Despite the best efforts of post-Cold War liberalism, the majority of people in this country still maintain a sense of place and want policies to be rooted in a sense of national pride. Typically, we wear patriotism very lightly, in a way that America does not, but don't mistake that for it not being there.

As for Corbyn, when it comes to how he is unpatriotic: he would not sing the national anthem, he has historically supported terrorists who have killed UK soldiers and citizens, and has supported mass-immigration.

You might scoff at this, but I spoke to three ex-Labour voters this weekend from my family when I was down in Sussex/Brighton last weekend, and they all remembered him not singing in 2015 more than any manifesto commitment.

You might point that out as an example of media demonisation, or its triviality, but the point is people care about this stuff. If they think you hate the country you are representing, they do not trust you to commit to the biggest overhaul of social, economic and political policy since Margaret Thatcher.

I would also say, that from a policy perspective, not listening to concerns about immigration and integration, and trying to force schools to 'de-colonise' their curriculums and teach pupils that Britain is an evil imperialist country is also likely to scare people as well as seeming like you hate the country.

It didn't help either that Corbyn has been routinely critical of the armed forces, is a republican, and took about four years to commit to killing terrorists when they pose immediate public threat to UK citizens.

This is an interesting piece:
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/12/win-again-labour-must-embrace-radical-patriotism

posted on 13/1/20

comment by Blue in the face (U22288)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by 4Tsar (U22296)
posted 9 seconds ago
comment by Blue in the face (U22288)
posted 2 minutes ago
Read an interesting piece from US pollster Frank Luntz. Basically argues that 9 out of the last 10 US elections have been resolved by the simple question of "Are you better off now than four years ago?". Nine times out of the last 10 a majority of people say "Yes", the incumbent wins. Every time they say no the opposition leader/party does.

Only exception is Obama in 2012.

Probably simplistic, but interesting nevertheless.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"its the economy, stupid"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah basically, but the key is "perception" of being better off. I am looking for the piece as I read it this morning, but there were one or two occasions were people were worse off but felt better, and one occasion (I think 2000) were they felt worse off, but were actually better.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not disimilar to what I was talking about the other day. with my "What has Trump actually achieved?" query.

posted on 13/1/20

comment by rosso is done with this (U17054)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Blue in the face (U22288)
posted 32 minutes ago
comment by rosso is done with this (U17054)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Blue in the face (U22288)
posted 1 hour, 11 minutes ago
comment by rosso is done with this (U17054)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Blue in the face (U22288)
posted 32 seconds ago
Do you actually believe that Corbyn and/or any of the new leadership contenders actually hates the UK?

^ Honestly, I think Corbyn hates Britain. I think he considers the Union to have been a mistake, and that our legacy as a nation is more negative than positive.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow.

So you think he wanted to become PM to destroy the nation from the inside, by breaking it up or otherwise?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I think he wanted to destroy the nation state, and irreversibly change our country - yes. Like Blair did.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Irreversibly change our country how, exactly?

Does Boris want to destroy the nation state in driving a wedge between NI and the mainland, and in implementing policies clearly and stringently opposed by a comfortable majority of Scots strengthening the clamour first independence?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope the Labour response to these questions is more than "Wot aboot Boris?".
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Still hoping you can help me understand how Blair irreversibly changed the UK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you really just trying to wind me up?

In education policy, in social policy, in housing, in how we approach crime, in the civil service, in the way we approach terrorism offences, foreign policy, the EU, immigration...

I am not going down this rabbit hole with you again for the 5955959595956682384th time.

posted on 13/1/20

comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Blue in the face (U22288)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by 4Tsar (U22296)
posted 9 seconds ago
comment by Blue in the face (U22288)
posted 2 minutes ago
Read an interesting piece from US pollster Frank Luntz. Basically argues that 9 out of the last 10 US elections have been resolved by the simple question of "Are you better off now than four years ago?". Nine times out of the last 10 a majority of people say "Yes", the incumbent wins. Every time they say no the opposition leader/party does.

Only exception is Obama in 2012.

Probably simplistic, but interesting nevertheless.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"its the economy, stupid"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah basically, but the key is "perception" of being better off. I am looking for the piece as I read it this morning, but there were one or two occasions were people were worse off but felt better, and one occasion (I think 2000) were they felt worse off, but were actually better.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not disimilar to what I was talking about the other day. with my "What has Trump actually achieved?" query.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

People feel better off, and technically are, although the picture could be a lot better and actually he owes a lot to Obama's late-term policies.

I say all this as "apparently", as I am not expert on the US. it was in the article. Which i have lost

posted on 13/1/20

Exactly, make people 'feel' better off and it doesn't matter whether they actually are or not and they'll vote for you again. It's a con really.

And then "the left" get accused of disrepesecting the electorate and treating them like they're stupid. It's genius really.

posted on 13/1/20

Can you feel better off when you are not?

And I thought Labour said they lost the trust of the voters.

The term "left" is too vague...Corbynism and Corbynista lost respect for the working class, who lost faith in that section of Labour movement, imo.

posted on 13/1/20

Katie Hopkin Vs Piers Morgan, which on of these is the most vile human being?

posted on 13/1/20

"Can you feel better off when you are not?"

Yes. That was literally what BITF wrote. And I'm agreeing with it: "there were one or two occasions were people were worse off but felt better"

posted on 13/1/20

comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 2 minutes ago
Katie Hopkin Vs Piers Morgan, which on of these is the most vile human being?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm gonna go with Hopkins, as Morgan is at least a gooner.

I realise you may have the opposite answer for the exact same reason.

posted on 13/1/20

comment by rosso is done with this (U17054)
posted 32 minutes ago
comment by Blue in the face (U22288)
posted 28 minutes ago
You seem to have totally misread my argument as being about manifestos and arguing we should see Labour embrace dated 90s Blairism.

What I have said is that Labour needs to become a more patriotic party that isn't ashamed of the people it is supposed to be representing, and that if it is to maintain its usual coalition of voters (which is its only way to power) it needs to stop alienating anyone outside of cities or north of the M25.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t see how Labour is unpatriotic, or how it has unpatriotic policies. Maybe it’s a matter of perception, once again. Can you give me some examples?

I agree that it has to go out and win the argument in the midlands, Wales and the north. It has clearly failed miserably to do that insofar as people’s crosses at the ballot box are concerned.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Very basic.

Palestinian flags at Labour conference and not British flags.

Thornberry mocking England fans and white van man.

Jezza being friends with the enemies of the UK.

Labour leader's voting against anti terror legislation.

Jezza lying about watching the Queens speech and England at sport....

McDonnell having pira pics on his office in Hillingdon -Hayes.

Inviting pira to Westminster as pira bomb London and Brighton.

Bring soft on Putin over Salisbury or Crimea and Assad.

Wanting to increase immigration against voters wishes.

Hostility to leave voters, calling them thick racists.

Hostility to unionists in NI.

Allowing antisemitism to grow grew against British Jews....part of our nation.

Being soft on Islamist terror and hate preachers.

Hating our allies in America and opposing NATO.

Off the top of my head, rosso

posted on 13/1/20

Would you genuinely stick all that on Labour? I can't tsee them winning your vote over any time soon then.

Page 6704 of 7010

Sign in if you want to comment