The Ukrainian revolution in 2014 was seen by Russia as a Coup D'etat and Russia didn't recognised the new government. The pro Russian unrest in regions like Crimea was inevitable. It is complicated as often it is and Putin is an aggressor but Ukraine are nowhere near the good guys in all of this. And as usual the Americans have no clue about it !

Was he slaying us? I really don't think his bizarre support or Russia actually made any sense whatsoever.
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I never supported Russia. Merely pointing out the glaring hypocrisy in your thinking that is coloured by preconceptions and prejudice while fooling yourself that there is unbiased altruism behind it.

I also like how you're trying to twist your criticism of Russian aggression as a security issue when your original criticism of their aggression in Ukraine was a moral one. Only when your hypocrisy was exposed after drawing parallels with Western aggression did you start stressing the security risk rather than the morality of their war in Ukraine.

Sheriff, Robb simply had no clue what he was talking about. When the thread started he was trying to push an agenda that could get Russia lose their hosting simply based on any negative spin from the media. When he Realised most people were not against Russia he had to stick with the same argument but find different ways of defending himself. He does that with football discussions, when he is right he is right but when he is out of his depth he won't back down and will go down tying himself into knots with some highly imaginative piffle.

I think people forget that England finished last behind Spain/Portugal and Holland. England bid was pretty dire with no long lasting legacy. They were quite up themselves thinking having won the Olympics bid that the world cup was a formality.

What are you jabbering on about b10. You're inventing things as usual.

You seem to think most people aren't against Russia. Well, I count about 3 or 4 deluded people on a football thread who aren't against Russia. I can only assume they don't understand what is going on in the world and think that the current situation in the Ukraine is in any way comparable to England hosting the world cup had they done so at the same time as invading Iraq.

The region is a very dangerous place and if Russian aggression keeps on at the rate it is the world cup will be stripped from Russia and placed somewhere a lot safer than that part of the world.

Away from the issues from a potential conflict in the balkans the Russian world cup has many issues at home including a very real danger for black fans going to the country as well as gay fans. If you really think there aren't problems with fan safety then I'm afraid you're deluded.

I can't wait to see you treat a debate as something where you invent fake victories by yourself and the other ostriches with their heads in the sand regarding Russia and the very good reasons why they don't deserve to host a world cup.

comment by Sheriff John Brown - bring back David Dein (U7482)
posted 48 minutes ago
Was he slaying us? I really don't think his bizarre support or Russia actually made any sense whatsoever.
----------------------------------------

I never supported Russia. Merely pointing out the glaring hypocrisy in your thinking that is coloured by preconceptions and prejudice while fooling yourself that there is unbiased altruism behind it.

I also like how you're trying to twist your criticism of Russian aggression as a security issue when your original criticism of their aggression in Ukraine was a moral one. Only when your hypocrisy was exposed after drawing parallels with Western aggression did you start stressing the security risk rather than the morality of their war in Ukraine.
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You're quite a funny guy. Jumping to huge conclusions. Guess what. It's a moral issue and a security issue. Just because I brought up both doesn't mean I'm changing my argument.

1) it is a morality issue. If it really was just about Russia wanting Crimea back then why are Russian special forces in eastern Ukraine now? The Russians really aren't stopping at Crimea and you know that. So yes, with what they're doing to Ukraine now it really is a moral issue. They're violating the Minsk agreement. Hence they should be punished.

2) it is also a security issue. This is all happening on the doorstep of the world cup. We've already seen this conflict take hundreds of innocent lives. I wonder how many people might be deterred from going to a Russian world cup if this conflict escalates as many are saying will happen.

So there you go, I haven't changed my argument at all. Just offered up some very compelling arguments as to why this world cup has some pretty big no-no's attached to it

Russia won't be stripped of anything son. You are naive when it comes to politics. The issue is in Ukraine not Russia. It has its share of problems with fascists and right wing groups (Neo na(zis.) as does most of Eastern Europe and parts of Germany, Hungary.
There is a dangerous growing tide of nationalism sweeping Europe anyhow. Look at UKIP here, 4 million votes !
But the WC will go ahead there unless there is a war in Europe whereby other nations are involved.
The timing of this FIFA corruption arrests is politics. The US with their anti-Putin stance and the fact that the 'dirty' money is all in US dollars.

Fook the world cup, Germany are the winners. That is the end of it now, no more. It's not worth the bother.

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

Yeah took it. Club football rules !

It's like the Eurovision song contest. Everyone knows i's political with a kind of fixed voting but it still goes ahead anyhow every year.

A bird sanctuary.

They all will have to bow down to Titanic, no option.

Forget it Robb because at the end of the day Russia will host the blòòdy thing and England won't. The 4 deluded guys are way more than those that are naive to think that Russia are an incapable host.

Like 4za has said, nobody deserves to host a World Cup, you host it by winning bids.

Away from the issues from a potential conflict in the balkans the Russian world cup has many issues at home including a very real danger for black fans going to the country as well as gay fans. If you really think there aren't problems with fan safety then I'm afraid you're deluded.
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oh dear just read this.

I can't honestly can't believe you think this is true. How brain washed are you Robb.

Like 4za has said, nobody deserves to host a World Cup, you host it by winning bids.

What is the tried and trusted way of gaining votes when you're dealing with FIFA these days?

2018 Adidas
2022 McDonald's
2026 BP
etc

comment by b10 (U18580)
posted 2 hours, 54 minutes ago
Away from the issues from a potential conflict in the balkans the Russian world cup has many issues at home including a very real danger for black fans going to the country as well as gay fans. If you really think there aren't problems with fan safety then I'm afraid you're deluded.
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oh dear just read this.

I can't honestly can't believe you think this is true. How brain washed are you Robb.
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Okay, you've convinced me. There isn't a problem with racism there and black people aren't targeted because of their skin colour.

And forget my naive misgivings about gay rights in Russia. It's a wonderful country where gay and straight people frolic in the streets.

Russia 2018 is gonna be the best world cup ever. Why would anyone doubt that at all? Must be because i'm a western devil who can't bear to see the World Cup being hosted in a country where I don't speak the language.

@Sheriff John Brown

I've come to this thread late so you may not see this but anyway...

I'm no supporter of US/Western world hegemony or apologist for 'our' institutions and geopolitical games. Therefore, I have no time for hypocritical grandstanding. At the same time, your variety of kneejerk defence of Putin's Russia betrays a tribalistic, rather than principled, ethically consistent worldview. I place myself on the left of the political spectrum but I don't see any merit in those who are only against plutocracy and colonialism as long as it is Western plutocracy and colonialism. That implies you don't fundamentally give a shít about the victims of injustice per se - not the victims of your enemy's enemy. Who cares about Russians who face social injustice and restricted liberties due to an oligarchy that can more than hold its own against the tilted power structures of liberal democracies? Who cares about the Russians who are being demonised and marginalised in the context of an increasingly chauvinist legislative and media climate? (I have a gay friend in St Petersburg who wouldn't endorse your view that her community is 'thriving'. She and many of her friends are looking at the possibility of emigrating.)

If you want to be ethically consistent, you need to search out the facts and accept the complexity of a world in which there are many bogeymen, or rather look at the analogies between the way elites in different systems seek to influence and control information, power and resources. Looking at things that way, you can see a common purpose behind wrenching Western democracies from the grip of corporate power and transferring power and wealth from Russia's oligarchy/security state to the Russian people. Apologism for Putin on the basis of the West's shortcomings is certainly not a stance I'd regard as championing the poor and oppressed. It's simply cheerleading exploitation carried out somewhere else.

As you can already tell, I happen to care a lot about Russia. I lived there for a while, speak Russian, have many friends there still. I'm no lover of the UK's system and I want many things to change in this country (for a start electoral reform, foreign policy, stronger business regulation, green economic policies) but it's facile to say 'everything is the same'. Russia and the UK are both flawed but they're not flawed in the same ways or degrees. They are similarly flawed in terms of economic inequality and social injustice. They are both cynical and amoral in foreign policy, though specifically in the Ukraine crisis I can't see a Western counterpart to Russia's Crimean annexation and covert operations (still, there are plenty of dirty examples from our history). Russia is much worse in terms of human rights, personal liberties, rule of law and corruption. Russia is also worse in terms of access to information. Yes, our mainstream media is warped by the agendas of the Western elites but there is a far greater plurality of points of view even in mainstream media and a much more active sphere of serious critical discourse. If you haven't watched Russia TV channels, you simply won't understand the degree to which they have become crude propaganda tools of the Kremlin - pumping out emotive content as categorical fact. Meanwhile, the noose is ever tightening around the freer space of the internet.

I love Russia but I wouldn't take my children there. And I feel a hell of a lot safer being against the system here in the UK than I would do back in Petersburg.

As for the World Cup, my feeling is that the only way Russia would (and possibly should) be stripped of it is if fraud in the bidding process is discovered as Fifageddon unfolds.

Fair points Red Russian

The most annoying thing in debates like this is how some people truly believe the other person are brainwashed by the media and can't possibly have the same access to the worlds truth as the other guy.

I do understand how the world works but it takes people like Red Russian to express exactly how I feel about the situation. My wordplay is fairly limited compared to a master typist like him.

Jesus Christ, where on earth have I defended Russia? Do you see me justifying their trouble-making in Ukraine? Do you see me supporting the suppression of gay rights? Do you see me defending racism - especially being that I'm black? My point all along was saying they shouldn't host a world Cup because of that, when you wouldn't hold Western nations to account for their own evils to the same standard is hypocritical. Robb, who keeps peddling his hypocritical rubbish laced with many red herrings would not say America or the UK shouldn't host a World Cup despite their invasion of sovereign nations. I know it; he knows it. That's the glaring hypocrisy. I also played down glaring distortions about their danger to homosexuals, their sponsoring of terrorism and other nonsense propaganda. You don't have to exaggerate to highlight problems everybody can see. The UK is a better country than Russia. That's not in doubt. It still doesn't make Russia an unworthy host. Infact, a lot of the social problems in Russia has plenty to do with their relative historical isolation and lack of exposure compared to their Western counterparts while we sit moralizing. If Russia had spent centuries conquering and plundering much of the world across all continents like moral Britain, it might have turned out differently and they'll be the ones preaching and belittling unworthy countries who can't host a world cup.

"I don't see any merit in those who are only against plutocracy and
colonialism as long as it is
Western plutocracy and
colonialism."

I ramble more about Western hypocrisy. Russia are rogues and they know who they are - despite their propaganda. But you get the feeling the West actually believes a lot of the hypocritical bul.lsh.it it spouts with no self-awareness or shame. It baffles me, personally.

Sheriff, I don't think you actually read a single word of what Red Russian wrote. Well, maybe you skimmed over the bits that you could get angry about.

If you think what Russia are currently (key word being currently) doing can be compared to something that the UK aren't currently doing means that the UK is just as unsuitable as Russia to host a world cup then you're deluded and just seem to be defending Russia because they're your current cause. You as a black person should see just how bad it is in Russia for black people. Would you feel safe going there? And if not why would you want to send other black people there to face the same discrimination and violence on unacceptable scales that people there face? And gay people too. Putin warned gay people to keep their heads down (no pun intended). How scary is that when the leader of a country tells people of a minority to stay in the shadows?