Personally,I believe we in NI should take in persecuted refugees,running from extremist islamists,as should England,Scotland,Wales and Eire.

In fact,the world needs to join in,as happened in the world wars,as this is global,and not British or European.

One word of caution,is we may encourage more vulnerable people to risk lives,to escape,so we have to take on or talk to islamists.

Rather than blaming Islamists, who have been a part of the issue, why don't you look at the bigger picture?

Why don't you blame the regime of Assad for persecuting and killing his own people? Why don't you place more blame on the gulf countries for not taking in any refugees because they won't think that they benefit from it?

Why don't you blame western governments for intervening in these countries and turning them into absolute mayhem by colonising their lands and resources and destroying people's livelihoods?

It's only because of public and international pressure that Cameron has been willing to take in more refugees.

You keep trying to blame 'Islamists' and Middle Eastern countries for this mess, and although they are to blame, why are you so quick to exonerate any western countries for wrongdoing? They have been complicit in this.

I blame the yanks, its usually always their fault

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This forum isn't the best place for this discussion, but it's worth discussing. I think the starting point is to go back to the end of WWII and look at some decisions made then as the 'starting point'.

Most of these regimes have been propped up or outrightly supported by certain Western countries when it's suited them and then attacked when these countries felt like it was time for a change.

You get politicians in south america targeted for criticising or going against the US of A. wtf is all that about?

But go back to the end of WWII and educate people as to what happened back then. FFS, two atomic bombs were dropped on Japan - aren't they the biggest single acts of genocide the world has ever seen? Innocent civilians killed. We should still be condemning this cowardly action, yet we hardly hear about it except for anniversaries.

The world is a bolloxed up place where most people are polarised with their views and only want to see one side of the arguement.

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It's all well and good saying we (UK) should do our bit and take in our quota of refugees and I agree BUT only AFTER we have addressed the problem of homeless British families.

Why do we need to prioritise one over the other? Why can't we do both?

Perhaps if Mr Cameron had actually bothered to make more of an effort to ensure that he met the housing targets (rather than reduce the target each year), there wouldn't be so many homeless British families anyway.

Problem is that it's a huge catch 22, helping people in need is good but as soon as you start more and more will come seeking aid

That boy who died on the beach, his parents were refugees from Syria but had lived in Turkey for two years. They chose to go to Germany/Europe for economic reason and made the dangerous crossing. Europe can't be blamed for that, the parents certainly can though no matter how tragic the circumstance.

Ideally a safe zone by the Turkish border should be created to house the refugees and a new state set up. From there a slow orchestrated expansion into Isis and Assad held terroritory should be made.

It won't happen though as that would Involve military action and no one wants to do it. So instead people will keep streaming out and risking their lives because Europe is offering to house them.

as soon as you start more and more will come seeking aid
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Absolute rubbish.

These people want to make a living, live their lives in peace and spend time with their families. They were happy with where they were before all the violence kicked off.

Why are they going to risk their lives coming over here for our 'benefits' which are actually extremely difficult to qualify for anyway?

They chose to go to Germany/Europe for economic reason and made the dangerous crossing. Europe can't be blamed for that, the parents certainly can though no matter how tragic the circumstance.
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Just seen this .

Firstly, they had lived in Turkey for two years because of the escalating violence and unsafe scenes in Syria. But they had no citizenship in Syria because they were Kurds. Hence why they went to Turkey who said they would take them in. But they still had no passports or visas through no fault of their own essentially. They had also tried to leave Istanbul on three occasions but kept getting rejected because there was no proof of them having refugee status allegedly (which was farcical).

They came over to Europe because they wanted to be free from persecution and to protect their family. What other choice did they have? How can you blame the parents for trying to leave a horrible political situation?

Samir

Read my OP where I lay part blame at the west and the wars we create,as yet again,people think they know what I am thinking and saying,without actually reading it.

Of course Assad is also to blame,but the Taliban,AQ,isis,boko haram and al shabab are guilty of driving refugees out,and into dangerous situations.

Islamists are beheading,attacking shia,christians,yazidis and kurds,and making life hell,and people are coming from Pakistan and Africa where the big bad west are not the bogeymen.
Weird that refugees and migrants want to come here,if we are so evil,eh?

We stayed out of Syria as it was messy,and war weariness has set in after Iraq and Libya etc,plus isis would have been fighting Assad too,with us on their side?>

Gadaffi,Saddam and the Taliban were and are evil and when no one else does anything,in the UN to protect innocents,the west decides to be global cop.
Rightly or wrongly,the west sticks it's nose in as the world sits and watches Saddam gas kurds.

No doubt weapons dealers and warmongers in the west also want to a piece of the action,and oil is vital,but islamists are now driving millions of folk from their homes,so rather than blame Cameron,islamists are more at fault,right now,Samir.

You said Assad is to blame,well Cameron wanted us to attack his regime,so would you have backed that intervention,and are you not having it both ways,in relation to Assad?

Many refugees are coming from Africa too,and how is any of that our problem or fault.

The fact that many ME states lock their borders,even to fellow muslims speaks volumes about that region,who now rely on the infidel imperialists to help them.

It is complex,and blame lies at several doors,but islamsists are guilty,and just because they are muslim does not mean they are not responsible.

My OP was in reaction to listening to clowns having a go at Europe and Cameron,when isis and the Taliban,were sitting back laughing,as we argue among ourselves,and Bob Geldoff and facebook idiots want to sponsor a refugee family,after seeing one picture................even though vast numbers have been dying worldwide for years.

Isis slaughtering yazidis women and kids or boko haram kidnapping and raping Christian girls somehow missed the attention span of the people now suddenly full of concern,and of course it was awful for the family concerned,buy why oh why do we operate moral bandwagon's,in this sick world?

We should care about all victim's and all human life,and not cherrypick causes,and use this cause to attack political rivals.

Weird that refugees and migrants want to come here,if we are so evil,eh?
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86% of refugees are in developing countries, which is up from 70% the previous year.

Brazil have 10x more Syrian refugees than we do and prior to the international outcry, we had a measly 187 Syrian refugees agreed to be coming over here.

They want to go to any area where there is safety from being slaughtered and killed in their region. They're certainly not coming here to sponge off the state, as some would have you believe reading some of the comments, not just on this thread, but on other threads too.

My problem with you, and in previous discussions we have on here, bluebells, is that you disproportionately shift your focus on parts of the problem whilst being fairly dismissive of the root cause.

The fact that you cite Islamists as a bigger problem than state terrorism is testament to this. Why are people allured by the narrative ISIS and co. create? Because it's all in relation to foreign policy, cultural isolation and being subjected to brutal oppressive regimes.

If Cameron wanted to attack Syria, he would have done it by now. There were calls for Assad to be adopted as an ally most recently.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/syria-air-strikes-bashar-alassad-is-not-the-lesser-evil-but-a-major-part-of-the-problem-9758264.html

Given that he is inviting Sisi and Netanyahu, both criminals and murderers, to the UK, I wouldn't be trusting his track record or anything that he says.

" they are muslim does not mean they are not responsible."

Please, do not give these people the satisfaction of calling them Muslims. They are what we call Kharijites.

"We should care about all victim's and all human life,and not cherrypick causes,and use this cause to attack political rivals."

At least we agree on that

Right now Samir,people are fleeing islamsit terror,in many regions,and Assad is part of the problem,just as the Taliban,Saddam and Gadaffi were a problem,killing their own.

The arab spring could have seen more liberal muslim voices winning out,but extremist muslim's,and they will claim to be muslim,even if you deny them that right,are taking hold.

You make it sound like muslim's could not be as bad as what you call state terrorism,but look at Turkey,wiping out Armenian's.
In the past muslim crusades sought to gain land,and now a new facist form of Islamism is taking hold.

AQ was attacking western forces in the early 90's,way before the wars in Iraq etc,so there exists a separate islamsit agenda,just as certain western interests have an agenda.

The UK and USA are not driving people into boats,and people smugglers are not from the west.
Saudi Arabi,and Qatar are rich,yet they close their doors to the people,so frankly,islamists and the ME itself is to blame,along with other factors,such as bad foreign policies from Bush n Blair,and the like of Assad and Saddam and Gadaffi regimes.

Some muslims in the UK and globally are drawn to isis as they want to fight for islam and defend muslim intersts,and others want to belong,or to get a thrill from violence.................I doubt if it is all ethical anti-imperialist civil rights ideology.

The root cause is their,but do not use that as an excuse to let isis ot AQ or the Taliban or boko haram off the moral hook.

They are evil,and need to be stopped,preferrably by arab and muslim states.

I do not want us to be involved in the hell hole of a region ever again.

I also support the right of Israel to exist and when muslim fanatics want to kill all Jews,did you ever wonder why Israel acts as it does,to throw your analogy back?

Isis are coming to kick hamas in the ass,so how does that fit the liberation analysis?

Cameron used our democracy on the Assad issue,and was voted down,so we did not attack Assad,Samir,and we do not need to get into that boots on ground stuff there with Assad,as we would be helping isis,and that place is a shambles,with muslim civil war making it messier.

Are we to blame for the sunni v shia hatred too,btw?

Perhaps the moderate muslim's of the world should face the likes of isis,if they are such a blight on islam,and stop this evil,that is creating refugees,and despair.
If we do it we are interfering,and the British and Americans are then state terrorists.

Are you suggesting we all as a world sit back and let isis do what they want,as the west were part of the root cause for instability?

On war criminals from Israel,I admit the IDF are brutal,but faced with hamas firing rockets,or sneaking in tunnels to pop out and kill civilians,leads to a sense of alienation,fear and then Israel strikes out.
Hamas are a nasty islamist mob,who kill Palestinians they dislike,in Fatah or locals they cross,and label spies.

Do you agree that hamas are also war criminals,if you say Israeli leaders are?

Or,do you simply follow the anti-Jewish line of extreme muslim's?..........pretending to be anti-Zionist,of course,but weirdly,only innocent Jews are targeted,in the main,from Europe to Israel itself.

I don't even know where to begin with all of that...

Let me reply post by post.

I've already agreed with you that Muslims are also to blame and the Gulf countries are doing nothing to help this issue.

Your post about Islamism being the root cause is absolute poppycock. These people only get radicalised after they're in the camps of the extremists and far-right fundamentalist groups. Again I ask. Why aren't you looking at the root cause? It has very little to do with being enticed by an Islamist narrative.

Where have I let anyone off the hook? The reasons are multi-faceted. Of course the terrorist groups are to blame and I haven't excused their behaviour.

I've said this to you on previous threads.

I don't support Israel's right to exist because they are an illegal state. They receive on average $12bn every day from the USA, they have broken 77 UN resolutions, they use white phosphorus on innocent civilians and they shoot children on beaches for fun, whilst forcing people out of their lands and are restricting Arabs in certain areas. They also have blockades by land, sea and air which is unacceptable.

People have a right to exist, but states do not. Not when they've been built on persecution and violence.

The Jews in Israel are settling there because of a European problem. So what right did the Europeans have in placing European Jews in the Middle East where people were already living and not trying to find them homes in other regions in Europe and trying to disperse them there? The whole concept of Zionism is about giving one group of people exclusive rights over the others and that is something I do not support.

No, the west aren't to blame for the Sunni-Shia issue. They are to blame for the current problems in Libya and Iraq though.

No worries Samir,we will chat soon.

Just saw the news and among the crowds going to Germany today,were men from Pakistan,as well at the Syrian and Afghan and Iraqi numbers,not forgetting huge numbers from all over Africa.

Why are people from Pakistan among Syrian refugees,and what sort of numbers are coming into Europe?

This is going to be expensive and complicated,if Europe is taking in everyone from Pakistan,through the ME and into Africa?

Perhaps economic migrants need to stay put,and allow real refugees fleeing for their lives in.

British and Americans were state terrorists for exacerbating the Middle East conflicts which is why fundamentalist groups have been receiving more support from disenfranchised people ! I don't get how you're not understanding this. If they have caused the issue, in theory, they should be trying to sort it out. Besides I'm sure if they truly wanted to stop Daesh, they could. Their resources and military intelligence far exceeds ISIS's.

Hamas are not war criminals. A leading European court took them off their terrorist list a year ago and most HR organisations say that they have the right to defend themselves and their civilians. These "rockets" you talk about are encompassing the idea of give me liberty or give me death. They want to be free from Netanyahu's brutal regime. 66 Israeli soldiers were killed in the Gaza strip and 7 civilians from these rockets, compared to over 2000 Palestinians. There is clearly disproportionate force being used which you're selectively ignoring.

You appear to be saying Europeans and Jews should not be in the middle east,which is kinda racist,and counter to what we see on TV right now,with Europe welcoming in people from the middle east.

I think Israel was there slightly before the world war,Samir,if you read a history book or the bible,even.
The holocaust could be the root cause of the Israel we see today,however.
The Christians and Jews were around before islam,too,if we want to talk about who was where first,in your anti-European Jew in muslim land scenario.

I did not say Islamism was the only or root cause of the problem,and how are the far right to blame for isis or the Taliban?

People are being radicalized on social media,and in areas outside any camp,Samir,but if that is what you think,fair enough.
Fools have converted and left Europe after 6 months being a muslim,for goodness sake,and never saw a Koran or camp before Christmas.

In past muslim crusades,who was the cause of this expansionist power drive,when America was not around?

Why did Turkish muslims wipe out Armenian's in the 1940's?

Could it be that some muslim's,like other faiths,can be evil,and not forgetting non faith nutters such as Stalin or Hitler.

Hamas used dead kids as they knew what would happen if rockets were fired into Israel and if they used rat like tunnels to sneak into Israel and buther Jewish civilians.
I also admit that the IDF showed a lack of humanity bombing civilian areas,but hamas hide their weapons there.
If you think hamas are good and Israel bad,that says more about you than anything I canpost,Samir.

Saddam and Gadaffi were evil man and killed their people,but this appears to be accepted by you and others,who are content to sit back and let tyrants murder and start wars,with neighbouring states in the ME.
When Saddam gassed the kurds,it was a war crime,and Gadaffi was insane,funding and arming the Provo's to kill people I know in Belfast.

Personally,I would not have gone in,but Libya and Iraq had a chance to have a positive arab spring,such as Tunisia,but isis want an extremist form of islam in a crazed caliphate,and some muslims like that set up,so join.

"You appear to be saying Europeans and Jews should not be in the middle east,which is kinda racist"

I can categorically and unequivocally say to you that I did not imply or insinuate this.

Israel did always exist, but it has been given different names over the years. it was previously called the Land of Canaan. In any case, I have no problem with indigenous Jews that were living there originally because Jews and Muslims have historically lived peacefully side by side. But the whole Balfour Declaration is what made things much worse for the region as people started settling and then slowly began to take over other people's homes and land.

"People are being radicalized on social media,and in areas outside any camp,Samir,but if that is what you think,fair enough.
Fools have converted and left Europe after 6 months being a muslim,for goodness sake,and never saw a Koran or camp before Christmas."

Absolutely. So how can you call them Muslims if they go against the basic rules of Islam?

"Why did Turkish muslims wipe out Armenian's in the 1940's?"

Where have I defended this? It was one of the worst crimes in human history.

Just because some muslims decide to go extreme,it does not follow that we are to blame,just as when a white racist targets black people,it is the fault of the racist.


Sometimes,it is just the fault of the muslim fanatic,or the white racist,or the old Christian crusades or Spanish Inquisition,but we cannot accept responsibility and blame others for our bigotry.
As an Ulster Protestant,I have seen this from my community,and against my community,and we can blame the other side all day,but then,we look in the mirror,and wise up.

Time for us all to wise up,including muslim extremists,and the rest of humanity.