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Arguing w/strangers cause I'm lonely thread

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posted on 22/1/22

If it turns out she is telling the truth, obviously I will retract, but her claims seem very unlikely to me and only evidence will change my mind.

posted on 22/1/22

whut is she claiming?

posted on 22/1/22

comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 23 minutes ago
https://twitter.com/JoshFG/status/1485017544247365633?t=rs9Q16rBuitTN_ZPlbsYZg&s=19

So Mark Spencer (Tory whip) did these tweets then deleted them 🤔

I think a lot is going to depend on whether she formally complained and what was done afterwards if she did
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He’s deleted but then republished amended tweets as the first series of tweets had an easily identified lie in them. Doesn’t say much for the reliability of his recollections…

posted on 22/1/22

You should also bear in mind that Mr Spencer is referring to the Tories own investigation in to their own racism.

An investigation that was largely mocked for the fact that it sidelined Muslim views and experiences.

But I don't blame them for that. Corbyns labour was mature enough to invite an outside Investigator in to audit their complaints handling procedures, and look how that was reported in the media. Look at how the three instances of antisemitism they managed to find were handled. It would have been suicide for the Tories to emulate the same process

posted on 22/1/22

comment by 4zA - little boxes on the hillside, little boxes made of ticky-tacky, little boxes on the hillside n they all look just the same (U22472)
posted 5 minutes ago
whut is she claiming?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From the article;

“A Muslim Conservative MP has accused a party whip of telling her she was fired from her ministerial job because of her faith.

Nusrat Ghani, 49, was sacked as a transport minister in a mini reshuffle early in 2020. She claimed she was told by a whip that her “Muslimness was raised as an issue” at a meeting in Downing Street and that her “Muslim woman minister status was making colleagues feel uncomfortable””

posted on 22/1/22

comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 29 seconds ago
comment by 4zA - little boxes on the hillside, little boxes made of ticky-tacky, little boxes on the hillside n they all look just the same (U22472)
posted 5 minutes ago
whut is she claiming?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From the article;

“A Muslim Conservative MP has accused a party whip of telling her she was fired from her ministerial job because of her faith.

Nusrat Ghani, 49, was sacked as a transport minister in a mini reshuffle early in 2020. She claimed she was told by a whip that her “Muslimness was raised as an issue” at a meeting in Downing Street and that her “Muslim woman minister status was making colleagues feel uncomfortable””
----------------------------------------------------------------------
wow (if correct)

posted on 22/1/22

comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 1 minute ago
You should also bear in mind that Mr Spencer is referring to the Tories own investigation in to their own racism.

An investigation that was largely mocked for the fact that it sidelined Muslim views and experiences.

But I don't blame them for that. Corbyns labour was mature enough to invite an outside Investigator in to audit their complaints handling procedures, and look how that was reported in the media. Look at how the three instances of antisemitism they managed to find were handled. It would have been suicide for the Tories to emulate the same process
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Labour was criticised for multiple issues regarding anti-semitism - some was fair, some was not.

Some of it was motivated by legitimate concern, some of the criticism was political - either for Westminster pointscoring or Israel-Palestine pointscoring.

It was not just the anti-semitism process though, it was what Corbyn said and did throughout his political career.

Again - some criticism was fair, some was not.

On the issue of the Tory party and anti-Muslim bigotry - I am pretty open minded to the idea that people have subconcious biases and it is also possible people some MPs are racist.

Do I consider it institutional in the party? I have my doubts. Especially when the last complainant Warsi was a known liar, and in this case the claims being made by Ghani seem extraordinary.

Extraordinary to the point I need to so evidence.

posted on 22/1/22

comment by 4zA - little boxes on the hillside, little boxes made of ticky-tacky, little boxes on the hillside n they all look just the same (U22472)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 29 seconds ago
comment by 4zA - little boxes on the hillside, little boxes made of ticky-tacky, little boxes on the hillside n they all look just the same (U22472)
posted 5 minutes ago
whut is she claiming?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From the article;

“A Muslim Conservative MP has accused a party whip of telling her she was fired from her ministerial job because of her faith.

Nusrat Ghani, 49, was sacked as a transport minister in a mini reshuffle early in 2020. She claimed she was told by a whip that her “Muslimness was raised as an issue” at a meeting in Downing Street and that her “Muslim woman minister status was making colleagues feel uncomfortable””
----------------------------------------------------------------------
wow (if correct)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Aye. Unfortunately not the first accusation of instances of islamophobia in the Conservative party.

posted on 22/1/22

Islamophobia is a duff term, perfectly reasonable to criticise Islam - it is a set of ideas making huge claims about the world.

Same way one can criticise Christianity or Judaism.

From my reading, Islamophobia is often used as an accusation to silence liberal Muslims, apostates and feminists by theocrats, which makes its popularisation as a term among left-wing think tanks, quangos and publications pretty sickening.

Anti-Muslim bigotry, a legitimate thing to be concerned and worried about - should be squashed out. Bigotry against people is always something that should be unambiguously opposed.

Although I need more than accusations before I will join the chorus I am afraid.

posted on 22/1/22

I'd like to see some evidence too.

But I think your thoughts on "islamaphobia" probably conflict to your responses towards people who have criticised Zionism in the past.

There's bizarrely people a timely cheering on Starmers labour as the eject Jewish members who were fighting against what they believed was a biased ECHR report that conflated Zionism and anti-Semitism.

See for example the tweet Ken Livingstone shared that resulted in him being kicked out of Labour, anti Semitic? Not really, anti Zionist? Absolutely.

Either way, to avoid conflating this latest Tory drama with labour any further; I'd love to see some evidence, and I won't be at all surprised if it surfaces.

It's exactly why I posted the other day I don't see Javid or Rishi as leadership contenders, they might get past the MPs selection, but I'd bet the membership won't choose them readily.

posted on 22/1/22

Zionism is difficult to discuss partly because there is both a 'modern' understanding of it popularised by Theodore Herzl (might have misspelled that) but also a tradition that predates him over many centuries.

I do think some people use anti-Zionism as cover, in same way some anti-Muslim bigots probably use criticism of Islam as a pretence/smoke-screen for something much uglier.

I also think some people are guilty of double-standards, ie. criticising Israel with a level of disproprotionate vigour without the same scrutiny either for neighbouring countries and their actions in the region, or for much greater abusers such as China - where much of the Left and Right remains far too muted for my liking.

Thank you for the insight on Starmer situation - I have not been following that so will look into it when I have spare time.

We both agree on evidence.

If I see some I will retract everything I have said today about Ms Ghazi's claims

posted on 22/1/22

* Oh, missed out a paragraph.

But I also think people can criticise Zionism and criticise Israel and differ to my own views on how to make a sustainably peaceful country.

posted on 22/1/22

https://twitter.com/ZaidJilani/status/1484655245099782145

New Pew polling: Most Latinos say immigrants are treated around the same or better in the US than in their place of origin. Vast majority say more opportunity, better treatment of poor in US. Although outlier is strength of family ties.

^ Hmm....interesting. I would like to do some reading at some stage on Latino American populations and view points in America. It is an increasingly interesting part of their integration puzzle.

posted on 22/1/22

"Islamophobia is a duff term, perfectly reasonable to criticise Islam - it is a set of ideas making huge claims about the world"

I don't think it's a duff term particularly. Though it has been used to silence particular criticisms. And obviously it is not a 'phobia' to be critical of something.

However, Islamophobia does have its uses when it comes to an irrational fear or hatred to the religion.

posted on 22/1/22

My worry Black Hawk is it gets used to conflate bigoted statements with objective arguments.

For instance - if someone was to propose a ban on arrivals from say, Iran, because we disliked their stance on apostasy and freedom of expression, and therefore conflated that will all Shia muslims who lived there - I would say that was bigoted.

However, if I were to say, personally criticise religious structures used to silent dissent and prevent freedom of expression, and note there are few examples of countries with an Islamic foundation that seem to currently cherish those values - that would be a legitimate discussion point.

But Islamophobia as a term allows a conflation between both to exist

posted on 22/1/22

comment by Black Hawk (U16342)
posted 3 minutes ago
"Islamophobia is a duff term, perfectly reasonable to criticise Islam - it is a set of ideas making huge claims about the world"

I don't think it's a duff term particularly. Though it has been used to silence particular criticisms. And obviously it is not a 'phobia' to be critical of something.

However, Islamophobia does have its uses when it comes to an irrational fear or hatred to the religion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Didn’t see the quote but agree BH, the term does have its uses. I’d extend to not just hatred or fear of the religion, but to fear or hatred of its practitioners.

If I was to suggest how I think this plays out. The tweets from Spencer make it seem as though there was at least another person that was aware of the discussion and in a relatively contemporaneous way.

With conversations between 2 people I appreciate what insert has mentioned re evidence, and for me if another person (possibly as SpAd or another MP) comes out to say that they were informed at the time or soon after of the discussion by Ghani, that would go a long way to corroborate that it did happen.

So if another person comes out and confirms they were made aware, then Spencer is in a fair bit of trouble. If not, they’ll get into “he said she said” and he’ll get off.

I note Zahawi has already come out and called for an investigation.

posted on 22/1/22

Good points

Though I would say that this is somewhat true of all criticisms aimed at spiritual, or metaphysical belief systems. The key point is whether it is irrational.

Thats not to say that antisemitism works the same as islamophobia - it doesn't. There are very different contexts logically and historically.

For example, antisemitism is less about spiritual or moral belief systems, but more about either the supposed loyalty to the nation state, or the supposed 'advantages' within the economic/political system.

Islamophobia is probably more 'modern' to a certain extent. And also tied to other discourses such as national security and immigration.

posted on 23/1/22

Agree with BCML re; Others being made aware at the time, are where this rumour will live/die.

comment by Admin1 (U1)

posted on 23/1/22

https://www.glamour.com/story/katalin-kariko-biontech-women-of-year-2021


Excellent article

posted on 23/1/22

comment by Admin1 (U1)
posted 1 hour, 10 minutes ago
https://www.glamour.com/story/katalin-kariko-biontech-women-of-year-2021


Excellent article
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👍👍 thank you for sharing.

posted on 23/1/22

The lefty bias in the news strikes again.

Whereas I accept the government will always be more newsworthy than the opposition Starmer has a situation on his hands with many of his mp's angry that Wakeford has been warmly brought into the party (despite calling them a bunch of cants) yet Corbyn remains out in the cold.

Anybody seen this on BBC/Sky today?

posted on 23/1/22

comment by Admin1 (U1)
posted 2 hours, 59 minutes ago
https://www.glamour.com/story/katalin-kariko-biontech-women-of-year-2021


Excellent article
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What a wonderful read

posted on 23/1/22

Pakistani court sentences woman to death for WhatsApp ‘blasphemy’

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/1/20/pakistan-rawalpindi-court-sentences-woman-death-whatsapp-blasphemy

posted on 24/1/22

comment by NPEEEEEEEEEEEEEE (U22712)
posted 9 hours, 48 minutes ago
Pakistani court sentences woman to death for WhatsApp ‘blasphemy’

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/1/20/pakistan-rawalpindi-court-sentences-woman-death-whatsapp-blasphemy
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ffs

posted on 24/1/22

comment by NPEEEEEEEEEEEEEE (U22712)
posted 13 hours, 15 minutes ago
Pakistani court sentences woman to death for WhatsApp ‘blasphemy’

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/1/20/pakistan-rawalpindi-court-sentences-woman-death-whatsapp-blasphemy
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Madness 😔

Page 2187 of 2741

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