What I actually mean is I think we'll still play a relatively narrow game with narrow forwards.
Barring those exceptions when we go three at the back with Dalot on the right, the widest player we have is Martial on the left, and he only hugs the touchline when he's receiving the ball on the halfway line. The further up the pitch he receives the ball, the narrower you'll find him.
I don't think that kind of approach is going to change. I think next season we'll see the attacking players continuing to hone in on the space immediately in front of the penalty area.
It's the natural game of Rashford, Martial, Chong, Greenwood and Lingard. None of them are burst past the fullback and hit the byline type players, and we aren't that kind of team.
More often than not when we do (infrequently) see players at the byline pulling the ball back, it's because we've worked a close-quarters overloading situation in one of the opposition's defensive corners.
Yeah I think we’ll see a change from that once we can get in some wingers, though. We won’t get him this summer, but I’ve no doubt Jadon Sancho will end up at Manchester United and that will completely change the dynamic of our attack down the right. And I don’t think a replacement for Martial is too far away either, to be honest with you.
If I’m wrong, and Ole persists with this narrow attack for the remainder of his tenure, we are going to continually struggle in attack, and he’ll get sackef as a result.
If I’m wrong, and Ole persists with this narrow attack for the remainder of his tenure, we are going to continually struggle in attack, and he’ll get sackef as a result.
---------------------
Almost as if Mourinho realised this and was trying to fix this with the signings of Willian and Perisic. Almost as if huh?
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 3 hours, 50 minutes ago
VOF
You should take up limbo dancing mate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Been there done that (never sober).
I'm more of a belly dancer ............
Aye, but signed Sanchez instead.
comment by Ed The King Woodward (U10026)
posted 7 minutes ago
Yeah I think we’ll see a change from that once we can get in some wingers, though. We won’t get him this summer, but I’ve no doubt Jadon Sancho will end up at Manchester United and that will completely change the dynamic of our attack down the right. And I don’t think a replacement for Martial is too far away either, to be honest with you.
If I’m wrong, and Ole persists with this narrow attack for the remainder of his tenure, we are going to continually struggle in attack, and he’ll get sackef as a result.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am starting to think the same about Martial. I'm not sure he'll be at the club in, say, three seasons' time.
The frustrating thing is that'll be on him and him alone - I have not a shadow of a doubt that that lad very comfortably has the ability to make it. If he had the work rate of someone like Heung-min Son, we'd already be talking about a world-beater.
More generally, it'll be interesting to see how Chong and, if he's deemed ready, Greenwood are deployed by Ole. I'd like to see a real three-pronged attack with three out-and-out forwards running at back lines. And either of those two would be able to perform the right-sided role in such an approach.
If I saw something like that in just one game preseason, I'd happily miss the rest of the campaign
---------------------New DM/Garner
------Herrera/McT
--------------------------------------Pogba/Gomes
Greenwood--------Rashy-------MartialChong
Gomes would have an absolute field day releasing Greenwood, Chong and Rashford.
rosso, I’ve had that feeling over Martial for a while now. I think he lacks intelligence but effort and determination to really become a top, top player. I’ve said before I think he’ll have done well to reach the level Anelka did for a while, who he shares a lot of similarities with in terms of attitude and application.
Yeah interested to see how those guys are used nezt season. I do think we’ll see someone brought in to play on the right, though. I’ve a feeling Chong will go out on loan unless he really impresses in pre season.
My own feeling with Martial - and I've said this for a long, long time now - is that he'll only likely achieve a good portion of his potential if he is moved upfront. I don't think he has anywhere near the movement and desire to do the donkey work required of the modern wide forward, and he isn't as good as the very very top players in those positions (Ronaldo, Neymar, Bale etc) to simply not allow him to put in the leg work.
Up front his off the ball pressing is less important - it's the support cast that need to press most critically - and getting him closer to goal where his finishing can be better utilised may see a more consistent and even spread of goals. His movement is quite poor too, but the movement of a CF can often be more subtle and still effective so it might cover that deficiency better than when he plays wide.
I’m not sure, I still think he’s better getting the ball out wide and facing up defenders. He seems to struggle more often than not through the middle, and his lack of movement and pressing is obviously an issue, as it is with Lukaku, hence why Rashford has been preferred there.
Lukaku does get by being massively limited as a striker, however, so I suppose he could compensate for a lot just by being more central to put away chances.
He’s got so much to work on whatever position he plays to be one of the very best. He lacks the intensity, variety and intelligence in his game than many of the top forwards have.
The worrying thing for me is the lack of work he’s put in to change this, even it he is still quite young. Mourinho hasn’t helped him, but I don’t think he’s solely to blame for the lack of work on his game that Martial has displayed at United.
I hope Ole can get the penny to drop with him, and if not then maybe he’ll need a change of scenery for it to, if it ever will.
I can't say I can see a drastic enough shift in Martial's mentality and behaviour to really see him kicking on to the level his talent could get him to either, frankly.
One of the things that frustrates me isn't even his lack of off the ball running (in or out of possession), but that he doesn't run his FB ragged all game even when he gets the ball. In his first season he would consistently get the ball and start running at people.
I have speculated a few occasions this season that his physical conditioning isn't where it was or needs to be. It might explain why he picks his moments and manages himself through games. But it's also one reason I'd like to see him through the middle more, because it would allow us to play a wider play that will take his man on more often.
Martial has actually done pretty well on the occasions he's played centrally, and I believe it's his preferred position.
Fair comments, BK. Hopefully we’ll see all the squad in far better physical shape come next season, will be a big indicator of some issues that lie within certain players. I think Pogba is another that suffers in this regard, despite his physique. Similar to your point about Martial picking and choosing his moments, we doing see enough of the driving runs Pogba is capable of on and off the ball.
I think the physical conditioning throughout the squad is quite poor for what we want and expect.
No surprise that after a few games of a higher intensity than usual pretty much all the players that played in front 6 positions picked up muscle injuries.
We performed far more sprints under the first handful of games under OGS than we did all season under Mourinho. Led to muscle fatigue quite quickly.
They've all been conditioned to sit off and hold position when not in possession. OGS changed this and we saw great results initially, but obviously this couldn't be sustained.
comment by Steve Beaglehole (U15867)
posted 31 minutes ago
I think the physical conditioning throughout the squad is quite poor for what we want and expect.
No surprise that after a few games of a higher intensity than usual pretty much all the players that played in front 6 positions picked up muscle injuries.
We performed far more sprints under the first handful of games under OGS than we did all season under Mourinho. Led to muscle fatigue quite quickly.
They've all been conditioned to sit off and hold position when not in possession. OGS changed this and we saw great results initially, but obviously this couldn't be sustained.
=================
Indeed. The fitness, injuries and incredibly tough run of fixtures all combined to result in a poor run of form, as predicted by many. Also that a number of players know they won't be at the club next season - surely it has some impact.
It's been amusing to see the overreaction to our form, as when measured against the performance of the more sought-after managers like Pochettino, we've kept pace with them despite all of the above and having not made any signings.
I really like this signing but a little surprised at the price tag. Then again the market has simply shifted. Ibe and Burke are just some of the unheralded wingers to have moved for similar money lately.
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 2 hours, 20 minutes ago
I can't say I can see a drastic enough shift in Martial's mentality and behaviour to really see him kicking on to the level his talent could get him to either, frankly.
One of the things that frustrates me isn't even his lack of off the ball running (in or out of possession), but that he doesn't run his FB ragged all game even when he gets the ball. In his first season he would consistently get the ball and start running at people.
I have speculated a few occasions this season that his physical conditioning isn't where it was or needs to be. It might explain why he picks his moments and manages himself through games. But it's also one reason I'd like to see him through the middle more, because it would allow us to play a wider play that will take his man on more often.
Martial has actually done pretty well on the occasions he's played centrally, and I believe it's his preferred position.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Martial's best season for us remains his first when he played as a CF. He is ice cold in finishing and can hold the ball up and as you say his work rate isn't high but he could get away with it there. The weakest aspect of his CF play is positioning, sometimes found outside of the box when he should be in it.
He played just as many games out wide as he did up front in his first season. He’s always looked at his best out wide.
I’m excited by this signing, love seeing us sign Young exciting wingers.
I look forward to seeing him captain the side as first choice right back in 2034.
comment by Mike (U1170)
posted 24 minutes ago
I’m excited by this signing, love seeing us sign Young exciting wingers.
I look forward to seeing him captain the side as first choice right back in 2034.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
After just being given a new 2 year deal.
comment by Ed The King Woodward (U10026)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
He played just as many games out wide as he did up front in his first season. He’s always looked at his best out wide.
----------------
He did look better wide in his first season, but to be fair, the way we played didn't exactly help any of our strikers. The ball was moved far too slowly to actually get the striker in behind.
Out wide Martial was easier to find but some of his best performances since his first season have been down the middle. It might simply be that he does a little more because he prefers playing there. We know he's a pretty moody sort of character so it wouldn't surprise me if he tried harder at CF.
He doesn’t do more down the middle, though. He’s more ineffective because he struggles with the lack of space and his back to goal.
I can't agree with that Darren.
I'm struggling to think of many times he's scored a goal like the one against, (I think), Wolfsburg in the CL when he ran onto a through ball, or the one against West Ham where he's held it up on the halfway line, turned and ran with it, popped it off and then carried on running to get on the end of it and finish.
He had another excellent game when he came on at Everton last year I think to replace Lukaku who got injured. He linked well with midfield and got a nice goal.
He needs to do a hell of a lot more wherever he plays though - I think we can agree on that!
But these are moments rather than overall performances, which is why Martial has always looked superior outwide due to how he receives the ball. I’m really not seeing it with him as a cf, he’s arguably got more weaknesses to perform it than Lukaku. Though in his defence he’s not had anywhere near the opportunities to develop or find any rhythm there. But then I suppose maybe we should question exactly why all his coaches rarely play him there also. None of our strikers are actually good enough for where we want to be. They need so much fine tuning of their games. And yet you could argue it’s not even our biggest worry.
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Page 5 of 5
posted on 10/5/19
What I actually mean is I think we'll still play a relatively narrow game with narrow forwards.
Barring those exceptions when we go three at the back with Dalot on the right, the widest player we have is Martial on the left, and he only hugs the touchline when he's receiving the ball on the halfway line. The further up the pitch he receives the ball, the narrower you'll find him.
I don't think that kind of approach is going to change. I think next season we'll see the attacking players continuing to hone in on the space immediately in front of the penalty area.
posted on 10/5/19
It's the natural game of Rashford, Martial, Chong, Greenwood and Lingard. None of them are burst past the fullback and hit the byline type players, and we aren't that kind of team.
More often than not when we do (infrequently) see players at the byline pulling the ball back, it's because we've worked a close-quarters overloading situation in one of the opposition's defensive corners.
posted on 10/5/19
Yeah I think we’ll see a change from that once we can get in some wingers, though. We won’t get him this summer, but I’ve no doubt Jadon Sancho will end up at Manchester United and that will completely change the dynamic of our attack down the right. And I don’t think a replacement for Martial is too far away either, to be honest with you.
If I’m wrong, and Ole persists with this narrow attack for the remainder of his tenure, we are going to continually struggle in attack, and he’ll get sackef as a result.
posted on 10/5/19
If I’m wrong, and Ole persists with this narrow attack for the remainder of his tenure, we are going to continually struggle in attack, and he’ll get sackef as a result.
---------------------
Almost as if Mourinho realised this and was trying to fix this with the signings of Willian and Perisic. Almost as if huh?
posted on 10/5/19
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 3 hours, 50 minutes ago
VOF
You should take up limbo dancing mate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Been there done that (never sober).
I'm more of a belly dancer ............
posted on 10/5/19
Aye, but signed Sanchez instead.
posted on 10/5/19
comment by Ed The King Woodward (U10026)
posted 7 minutes ago
Yeah I think we’ll see a change from that once we can get in some wingers, though. We won’t get him this summer, but I’ve no doubt Jadon Sancho will end up at Manchester United and that will completely change the dynamic of our attack down the right. And I don’t think a replacement for Martial is too far away either, to be honest with you.
If I’m wrong, and Ole persists with this narrow attack for the remainder of his tenure, we are going to continually struggle in attack, and he’ll get sackef as a result.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am starting to think the same about Martial. I'm not sure he'll be at the club in, say, three seasons' time.
The frustrating thing is that'll be on him and him alone - I have not a shadow of a doubt that that lad very comfortably has the ability to make it. If he had the work rate of someone like Heung-min Son, we'd already be talking about a world-beater.
More generally, it'll be interesting to see how Chong and, if he's deemed ready, Greenwood are deployed by Ole. I'd like to see a real three-pronged attack with three out-and-out forwards running at back lines. And either of those two would be able to perform the right-sided role in such an approach.
If I saw something like that in just one game preseason, I'd happily miss the rest of the campaign
---------------------New DM/Garner
------Herrera/McT
--------------------------------------Pogba/Gomes
Greenwood--------Rashy-------MartialChong
Gomes would have an absolute field day releasing Greenwood, Chong and Rashford.
posted on 10/5/19
rosso, I’ve had that feeling over Martial for a while now. I think he lacks intelligence but effort and determination to really become a top, top player. I’ve said before I think he’ll have done well to reach the level Anelka did for a while, who he shares a lot of similarities with in terms of attitude and application.
Yeah interested to see how those guys are used nezt season. I do think we’ll see someone brought in to play on the right, though. I’ve a feeling Chong will go out on loan unless he really impresses in pre season.
posted on 10/5/19
My own feeling with Martial - and I've said this for a long, long time now - is that he'll only likely achieve a good portion of his potential if he is moved upfront. I don't think he has anywhere near the movement and desire to do the donkey work required of the modern wide forward, and he isn't as good as the very very top players in those positions (Ronaldo, Neymar, Bale etc) to simply not allow him to put in the leg work.
Up front his off the ball pressing is less important - it's the support cast that need to press most critically - and getting him closer to goal where his finishing can be better utilised may see a more consistent and even spread of goals. His movement is quite poor too, but the movement of a CF can often be more subtle and still effective so it might cover that deficiency better than when he plays wide.
posted on 10/5/19
I’m not sure, I still think he’s better getting the ball out wide and facing up defenders. He seems to struggle more often than not through the middle, and his lack of movement and pressing is obviously an issue, as it is with Lukaku, hence why Rashford has been preferred there.
Lukaku does get by being massively limited as a striker, however, so I suppose he could compensate for a lot just by being more central to put away chances.
He’s got so much to work on whatever position he plays to be one of the very best. He lacks the intensity, variety and intelligence in his game than many of the top forwards have.
The worrying thing for me is the lack of work he’s put in to change this, even it he is still quite young. Mourinho hasn’t helped him, but I don’t think he’s solely to blame for the lack of work on his game that Martial has displayed at United.
I hope Ole can get the penny to drop with him, and if not then maybe he’ll need a change of scenery for it to, if it ever will.
posted on 10/5/19
I can't say I can see a drastic enough shift in Martial's mentality and behaviour to really see him kicking on to the level his talent could get him to either, frankly.
One of the things that frustrates me isn't even his lack of off the ball running (in or out of possession), but that he doesn't run his FB ragged all game even when he gets the ball. In his first season he would consistently get the ball and start running at people.
I have speculated a few occasions this season that his physical conditioning isn't where it was or needs to be. It might explain why he picks his moments and manages himself through games. But it's also one reason I'd like to see him through the middle more, because it would allow us to play a wider play that will take his man on more often.
Martial has actually done pretty well on the occasions he's played centrally, and I believe it's his preferred position.
posted on 10/5/19
Fair comments, BK. Hopefully we’ll see all the squad in far better physical shape come next season, will be a big indicator of some issues that lie within certain players. I think Pogba is another that suffers in this regard, despite his physique. Similar to your point about Martial picking and choosing his moments, we doing see enough of the driving runs Pogba is capable of on and off the ball.
posted on 10/5/19
I think the physical conditioning throughout the squad is quite poor for what we want and expect.
No surprise that after a few games of a higher intensity than usual pretty much all the players that played in front 6 positions picked up muscle injuries.
We performed far more sprints under the first handful of games under OGS than we did all season under Mourinho. Led to muscle fatigue quite quickly.
They've all been conditioned to sit off and hold position when not in possession. OGS changed this and we saw great results initially, but obviously this couldn't be sustained.
posted on 10/5/19
comment by Steve Beaglehole (U15867)
posted 31 minutes ago
I think the physical conditioning throughout the squad is quite poor for what we want and expect.
No surprise that after a few games of a higher intensity than usual pretty much all the players that played in front 6 positions picked up muscle injuries.
We performed far more sprints under the first handful of games under OGS than we did all season under Mourinho. Led to muscle fatigue quite quickly.
They've all been conditioned to sit off and hold position when not in possession. OGS changed this and we saw great results initially, but obviously this couldn't be sustained.
=================
Indeed. The fitness, injuries and incredibly tough run of fixtures all combined to result in a poor run of form, as predicted by many. Also that a number of players know they won't be at the club next season - surely it has some impact.
It's been amusing to see the overreaction to our form, as when measured against the performance of the more sought-after managers like Pochettino, we've kept pace with them despite all of the above and having not made any signings.
posted on 10/5/19
I really like this signing but a little surprised at the price tag. Then again the market has simply shifted. Ibe and Burke are just some of the unheralded wingers to have moved for similar money lately.
posted on 10/5/19
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 2 hours, 20 minutes ago
I can't say I can see a drastic enough shift in Martial's mentality and behaviour to really see him kicking on to the level his talent could get him to either, frankly.
One of the things that frustrates me isn't even his lack of off the ball running (in or out of possession), but that he doesn't run his FB ragged all game even when he gets the ball. In his first season he would consistently get the ball and start running at people.
I have speculated a few occasions this season that his physical conditioning isn't where it was or needs to be. It might explain why he picks his moments and manages himself through games. But it's also one reason I'd like to see him through the middle more, because it would allow us to play a wider play that will take his man on more often.
Martial has actually done pretty well on the occasions he's played centrally, and I believe it's his preferred position.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Martial's best season for us remains his first when he played as a CF. He is ice cold in finishing and can hold the ball up and as you say his work rate isn't high but he could get away with it there. The weakest aspect of his CF play is positioning, sometimes found outside of the box when he should be in it.
posted on 10/5/19
He played just as many games out wide as he did up front in his first season. He’s always looked at his best out wide.
posted on 10/5/19
I’m excited by this signing, love seeing us sign Young exciting wingers.
I look forward to seeing him captain the side as first choice right back in 2034.
posted on 10/5/19
comment by Mike (U1170)
posted 24 minutes ago
I’m excited by this signing, love seeing us sign Young exciting wingers.
I look forward to seeing him captain the side as first choice right back in 2034.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
After just being given a new 2 year deal.
posted on 10/5/19
comment by Ed The King Woodward (U10026)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
He played just as many games out wide as he did up front in his first season. He’s always looked at his best out wide.
----------------
He did look better wide in his first season, but to be fair, the way we played didn't exactly help any of our strikers. The ball was moved far too slowly to actually get the striker in behind.
Out wide Martial was easier to find but some of his best performances since his first season have been down the middle. It might simply be that he does a little more because he prefers playing there. We know he's a pretty moody sort of character so it wouldn't surprise me if he tried harder at CF.
posted on 10/5/19
He doesn’t do more down the middle, though. He’s more ineffective because he struggles with the lack of space and his back to goal.
posted on 10/5/19
I can't agree with that Darren.
I'm struggling to think of many times he's scored a goal like the one against, (I think), Wolfsburg in the CL when he ran onto a through ball, or the one against West Ham where he's held it up on the halfway line, turned and ran with it, popped it off and then carried on running to get on the end of it and finish.
He had another excellent game when he came on at Everton last year I think to replace Lukaku who got injured. He linked well with midfield and got a nice goal.
He needs to do a hell of a lot more wherever he plays though - I think we can agree on that!
posted on 10/5/19
But these are moments rather than overall performances, which is why Martial has always looked superior outwide due to how he receives the ball. I’m really not seeing it with him as a cf, he’s arguably got more weaknesses to perform it than Lukaku. Though in his defence he’s not had anywhere near the opportunities to develop or find any rhythm there. But then I suppose maybe we should question exactly why all his coaches rarely play him there also. None of our strikers are actually good enough for where we want to be. They need so much fine tuning of their games. And yet you could argue it’s not even our biggest worry.
Page 5 of 5