comment by Klopptimus Prime - Die Unerträglichen (U1282)
posted 2 hours, 53 minutes ago
Given that he’s a level above anyone on the league, and has had no difficulty scoring against England’s best teams, the likes of Burnley would be easy for him.
======
The Champions League isn't the same as the league though. For instance, CL are one off games where teams go for it. In the league Burnley would have 11 men behind the ball, which they don't really do in Spain, and two players on Messi's ar5e. Burnley would hope for a point.
Messi has scored 13 goals in 14 games at the Nou Camp against English teams, but just seven goals in 14 away games on English turf - eight in 15 if you include the 2011 final at Wembley.
This suggests his goal return would reduce significantly in England but he'd still be the man.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lol you backed up his point. Messi at the camp nou deals with teams playing 11 behind the ball, even in the champions league, all the time. Why would he struggle to score against Burnley it he doesn’t struggle to score against Atlético
You see sides in Spain all the time go away to Barca, Real, Atletico etc and just keep 11 men behind the ball, it's just a different country.
The argument that he couldn't score the same in the PL due to his record in the CL in England is also daft. Playing away from home in Europe is always difficult and going off last season when Barca came to Liverpool, they came with a 3-0 lead. The way it was set out before the game, he didn't need to score.
Just say the Champions League isn't the same as domestic football which is very much true, but then try to summarise by saying his goal tally in England would reduce based off CL football alone.
You stick him in Man City's side as they are at the moment, I'd say there is a very real chance he'd hit 50 goals for City in one season.
David silva, aguero, salah some of the best players in the league who are small technical players. They have thrived in the pl. messi is better than all of them.
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 49 seconds ago
David silva, aguero, salah some of the best players in the league who are small technical players. They have thrived in the pl. messi is better than all of them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But wait... Saint Hazard is better than Messi and he never scored more than 20 PL goals in a season.
Hazard isn’t better than Messi. And goodbye wahl
It’s a strange question. Messi has hit 50 goals in law liga once. The rest has been about 30 odd. Suarez hit 31 in 33 one year and Messi is a better player than him. If u asked would Messi score 35 in the prem I’d say yes if salah could
====
Agreed.
Lol you backed up his point. Messi at the camp nou deals with teams playing 11 behind the ball, even in the champions league, all the time. Why would he struggle to score against Burnley it he doesn’t struggle to score against Atlético
=====
They don't really pack the defence in Spain the way they do in England. Also, the style in Spain allows more space to play.
I didn't say he'd struggle to score against Burnley.
lol learn to read.
The argument that he couldn't score the same in the PL due to his record in the CL in England is also daft.
----------
Agreed. I replied to a post arguing that he would score the same in the PL due to his record in the CL in England.
If the argument that he couldn't score the same in the PL due to his record in the CL in England is daft then so is the argument that he would score the same in the PL due to his record in the CL against English teams.
Just say the Champions League isn't the same as domestic football which is very much true, but then try to summarise by saying his goal tally in England would reduce based off CL football alone.
=====
Ever heard of context?
The post I was replying referred to the CL alone to make its point and I was using that logic to show that it still indicates a reduction in goal tallies.
I agree its not a good measuring stick. I think you read my comment in isolation and jumped to criticise.
vvd for ballon dor easy.he had the better season than messi culminating with the cl.
the criteria for best player has to be more than just goals all the time.
comment by montleeds (U18330)
posted 1 hour, 35 minutes ago
vvd for ballon dor easy.he had the better season than messi culminating with the cl.
the criteria for best player has to be more than just goals all the time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
like assists? Importance to team? skill? amount of trophies won?
Not reading all the comments but the only player last season who can hold a candle to Messi was VVD.
The CL semi-final tie should play a big role in the votes.
Van Dijk also scored 6 goals and got 4 assists last season. Double figures goal contributions for a defender. Only 4 yellow cards as well in one of the best defensive performing teams last season. With him being the catalyst.
He's been the best player in the world over the last year or so. Rival fans just hate to admit it.
He's been the best player in the world over the last year or so. Rival fans just hate to admit it.
----------------------------------------------------------
Why would anyone hate to admit it? It's just what people are debating above. Don't be so ridiculous.
And if the CL semi final plays a big role, didnt messi score two and then put a couple chances on a plate in the second leg also which would have seen barca go through.
Anyone that watched the first leg will tell you that the 3-0 scoreline flattered Barca on the night.
Are you really suggesting that possibilities of what could've happened, had the stars aligned for Barca, play a role in how people should vote on who was the best player in the world for the past year?
Van Dijk does it for his national side too.
3-0 did flatter them, but messi was unreal that night, and single handedly won them the game. You just backed up my point
You said the CL semi final should play a role, messi was arguably the only barca player that stepped up for his team, the rest of them were abysmal.
comment by Michael Edwards FC {Proud owner of the 5 000 000th comment} (U2720)
posted 28 seconds ago
Van Dijk does it for his national side too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As does messi...well compared to anyone else bar ronaldo, probably the most important player for their natiaonal team.
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 1 day, 18 hours ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 3 hours, 21 minutes ago
I’ve never known a defender to player 50 odd games and never be taken on.
It’s a miraculous stat - especially when you consider the calibre of his opponents .. Hazard, Aguero, Mbappe, Neymar, Lewandoski, Messi, Suarez etc.
To top off a season with that statistic with a European Cup is extraordinary - and should see him pick up the Ballon D’orr.
Lastly, Messi came out second best in the two encounters with each other.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Myth stat apparently he did but it doesn’t take into account fouls and other differentials.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The stat is basically he hasn't been dribbled past while attempting a tackle.
Which is hugely impressive in itself but when it's misleading to say he hasn't been dribbled past full stop, for example didn't Sane walse past him at Anfield last season leading to him bringing him down and conceding a penalty?
Yeah its a myth stat, can't remember who but someone online has pointed out that he has had the ball taken past him several times.
But there are people online saying it's true.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1171332483142639617
The girl represents all those pocketed elite strikers.
comment by Willian Dollar Baby (U22238)
posted 1 hour, 15 minutes ago
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 1 day, 18 hours ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 3 hours, 21 minutes ago
I’ve never known a defender to player 50 odd games and never be taken on.
It’s a miraculous stat - especially when you consider the calibre of his opponents .. Hazard, Aguero, Mbappe, Neymar, Lewandoski, Messi, Suarez etc.
To top off a season with that statistic with a European Cup is extraordinary - and should see him pick up the Ballon D’orr.
Lastly, Messi came out second best in the two encounters with each other.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Myth stat apparently he did but it doesn’t take into account fouls and other differentials.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The stat is basically he hasn't been dribbled past while attempting a tackle.
Which is hugely impressive in itself but when it's misleading to say he hasn't been dribbled past full stop, for example didn't Sane walse past him at Anfield last season leading to him bringing him down and conceding a penalty?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That counts as a foul, not a dribble past. The 'dribble past' metric applies to everyone. If you feel that it's faulty then it's opta stats you should aim your questions at.
For the last time, and do try to remember it, 'dribbled past' means that the defender needs to put in a failed tackle in order to count, but is considered only a foul when the attacker is brought down.
was just a stat that ended up happening and someone noticed it was absurd amount of games, not sure why some people got butthurt about it
And to end this useless debate: Yes van dijk deserves the award based on his influence and his individual performances for his club and national team.
Influence.
While people tend to believe that his teammates fail Messi when the Argentine doesn't deliver they also are of the 'understanding' that it's all Messi who's the one-man-army when he delivers. Of course this is a silly argument since he can underperform just like anyone else. Van Dijk has been more consistent (club and country) while he also makes his teammates better and grants an aura of invincibility that is not easily shattered.
Barca has houdehold names, Liverpool has a mix of young talent, experienced players of lower skill tier and a few worldclass players. the Dutchman doesn't need an embarrassment of riches to perform. The best example for this is the national team. We saw how both Liverpool and the Netherlands were playing on a higher level when van dijk started to pull the strings. It was through his influence. Messi is still struggling with Argentina and in the Champions League to perform like the monster that he is in la Liga - a league that had little competition for Barcelona last season with the decline of Madrid. The Spanish competition is one of the strongest, but I feel the EPL is more competitive.
I'd say van dijk has been a better player as a defender than Messi has been as a striker, despite his impressive goal tally. You have to remember that scoring a lot of goals is less important than scoring enough goals at the right times to win the important games. By the same token, keeping the clean sheets and being able to soak the opponents pressure when the forwards had a not so stellar spell was key to the succes. (Would VAR have played a role last season it would be possibility that City wouldn't finish 1st.)
Performance
As mentioned, the goals scored by Messi stands on itself. We all acknowledge this great feat. There is no matrix of comparison to compare goals scored vs goals stopped. But we can all agree that scoring goals takes more talent than stopping them. For van dijk to make a claim on best footballer he'd need an astounding season of defensive performances to even be considered as a potential winner. We can put the boring dribbled past debate aside. So what do we know? Statswise both Messi and van dijk set the bar. If anyone need more confirmation:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3VMNeuWAAAeIbN.png
People could argue that van dijk has the best back pairing in the league. What they forget is that Robertson and TAA's strength lies in their attacking prowess, not their defensive power (although Andrew did make a few very good defending actions). However both are prone to being caught out. This has happened on numerous occasions. This puts pressure on both cb's positional awareness, anticipation, speed and call to action. The three midfielders are engaged in pressing with one midfielder slotting in between the two cb's (although this season Klopp plays more in a 2-5-3) This accentuates the importance of being individually apt in an unforgiving formation deployed by Klopp.
Van Dijk has been important at both ends of the pitch. The goal and assist against Bayern in the Champions League, the run he made (that also clocked the highest speed in the competition) to prevent Barca getting a 4th goal (Andrew blocked the pass, but if van dijk didn't run with the other Barca player it would have been an easy pass and likely a goal), the block against Son's run towards the keeper in the final, the crucial goal he scored against Germany to put his country in the final and the individual performances against the top top sides deems him one of the most consistent performers at the highest stage.
Messi is Messi but is not a complete attacking player. (Not saying that he has to be) For instance, he's not good in the air while van dijk virtually has no weaknesses and plays a clean game where he doesn't need to make a foul (or a sliding tackle) to win the ball. Add his fear factor, leadership, organizing skills and football IQ and nobody can deny that he's as complete as it gets. Not just as a defender, but as a footballer. Obviously he'll never be a prolific goalscorer, but it shows that he can be effective at both ends of the pitch. Everything considered this increases his value as A player. I also feel like he makes the game look easy. So basically he's not performing at peak performance to look worldclass. Perhaps this is where his 'arrogance' stems from. His coolness and yes, even some laziness at times. I reckon Messi doesn't have many, if any, defensive duties and has to work hard(er) to achieve what he does.
Forget the EPL legends. If van dijk keeps this form untill the end of his career he will be named in the same sentence as the all time greats like Maldini and Beckenbauwer.
Whose gonna read all that!
I did.
Im not sure Messi does struggle in the CL, he knocked in 12 goals last season I think and were it not for him Barca wouldnt have got near us in that tie really.
He's also good in the air for his height.
But at the same time is will be and shouldnt be any surprise to see VVD win it.
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VVD for Ballon d'or?
Page 7 of 13
8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12
posted on 8/9/19
comment by Klopptimus Prime - Die Unerträglichen (U1282)
posted 2 hours, 53 minutes ago
Given that he’s a level above anyone on the league, and has had no difficulty scoring against England’s best teams, the likes of Burnley would be easy for him.
======
The Champions League isn't the same as the league though. For instance, CL are one off games where teams go for it. In the league Burnley would have 11 men behind the ball, which they don't really do in Spain, and two players on Messi's ar5e. Burnley would hope for a point.
Messi has scored 13 goals in 14 games at the Nou Camp against English teams, but just seven goals in 14 away games on English turf - eight in 15 if you include the 2011 final at Wembley.
This suggests his goal return would reduce significantly in England but he'd still be the man.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lol you backed up his point. Messi at the camp nou deals with teams playing 11 behind the ball, even in the champions league, all the time. Why would he struggle to score against Burnley it he doesn’t struggle to score against Atlético
posted on 8/9/19
You see sides in Spain all the time go away to Barca, Real, Atletico etc and just keep 11 men behind the ball, it's just a different country.
The argument that he couldn't score the same in the PL due to his record in the CL in England is also daft. Playing away from home in Europe is always difficult and going off last season when Barca came to Liverpool, they came with a 3-0 lead. The way it was set out before the game, he didn't need to score.
Just say the Champions League isn't the same as domestic football which is very much true, but then try to summarise by saying his goal tally in England would reduce based off CL football alone.
You stick him in Man City's side as they are at the moment, I'd say there is a very real chance he'd hit 50 goals for City in one season.
posted on 8/9/19
David silva, aguero, salah some of the best players in the league who are small technical players. They have thrived in the pl. messi is better than all of them.
posted on 8/9/19
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 49 seconds ago
David silva, aguero, salah some of the best players in the league who are small technical players. They have thrived in the pl. messi is better than all of them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But wait... Saint Hazard is better than Messi and he never scored more than 20 PL goals in a season.
posted on 8/9/19
Hazard isn’t better than Messi. And goodbye wahl
posted on 8/9/19
It’s a strange question. Messi has hit 50 goals in law liga once. The rest has been about 30 odd. Suarez hit 31 in 33 one year and Messi is a better player than him. If u asked would Messi score 35 in the prem I’d say yes if salah could
====
Agreed.
posted on 8/9/19
Lol you backed up his point. Messi at the camp nou deals with teams playing 11 behind the ball, even in the champions league, all the time. Why would he struggle to score against Burnley it he doesn’t struggle to score against Atlético
=====
They don't really pack the defence in Spain the way they do in England. Also, the style in Spain allows more space to play.
I didn't say he'd struggle to score against Burnley.
lol learn to read.
posted on 8/9/19
The argument that he couldn't score the same in the PL due to his record in the CL in England is also daft.
----------
Agreed. I replied to a post arguing that he would score the same in the PL due to his record in the CL in England.
If the argument that he couldn't score the same in the PL due to his record in the CL in England is daft then so is the argument that he would score the same in the PL due to his record in the CL against English teams.
Just say the Champions League isn't the same as domestic football which is very much true, but then try to summarise by saying his goal tally in England would reduce based off CL football alone.
=====
Ever heard of context?
The post I was replying referred to the CL alone to make its point and I was using that logic to show that it still indicates a reduction in goal tallies.
I agree its not a good measuring stick. I think you read my comment in isolation and jumped to criticise.
posted on 8/9/19
vvd for ballon dor easy.he had the better season than messi culminating with the cl.
the criteria for best player has to be more than just goals all the time.
posted on 8/9/19
comment by montleeds (U18330)
posted 1 hour, 35 minutes ago
vvd for ballon dor easy.he had the better season than messi culminating with the cl.
the criteria for best player has to be more than just goals all the time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
like assists? Importance to team? skill? amount of trophies won?
posted on 9/9/19
Not reading all the comments but the only player last season who can hold a candle to Messi was VVD.
The CL semi-final tie should play a big role in the votes.
Van Dijk also scored 6 goals and got 4 assists last season. Double figures goal contributions for a defender. Only 4 yellow cards as well in one of the best defensive performing teams last season. With him being the catalyst.
He's been the best player in the world over the last year or so. Rival fans just hate to admit it.
posted on 9/9/19
He's been the best player in the world over the last year or so. Rival fans just hate to admit it.
----------------------------------------------------------
Why would anyone hate to admit it? It's just what people are debating above. Don't be so ridiculous.
And if the CL semi final plays a big role, didnt messi score two and then put a couple chances on a plate in the second leg also which would have seen barca go through.
posted on 9/9/19
Anyone that watched the first leg will tell you that the 3-0 scoreline flattered Barca on the night.
Are you really suggesting that possibilities of what could've happened, had the stars aligned for Barca, play a role in how people should vote on who was the best player in the world for the past year?
posted on 9/9/19
Van Dijk does it for his national side too.
posted on 9/9/19
3-0 did flatter them, but messi was unreal that night, and single handedly won them the game. You just backed up my point
You said the CL semi final should play a role, messi was arguably the only barca player that stepped up for his team, the rest of them were abysmal.
posted on 9/9/19
comment by Michael Edwards FC {Proud owner of the 5 000 000th comment} (U2720)
posted 28 seconds ago
Van Dijk does it for his national side too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As does messi...well compared to anyone else bar ronaldo, probably the most important player for their natiaonal team.
posted on 10/9/19
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 1 day, 18 hours ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 3 hours, 21 minutes ago
I’ve never known a defender to player 50 odd games and never be taken on.
It’s a miraculous stat - especially when you consider the calibre of his opponents .. Hazard, Aguero, Mbappe, Neymar, Lewandoski, Messi, Suarez etc.
To top off a season with that statistic with a European Cup is extraordinary - and should see him pick up the Ballon D’orr.
Lastly, Messi came out second best in the two encounters with each other.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Myth stat apparently he did but it doesn’t take into account fouls and other differentials.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The stat is basically he hasn't been dribbled past while attempting a tackle.
Which is hugely impressive in itself but when it's misleading to say he hasn't been dribbled past full stop, for example didn't Sane walse past him at Anfield last season leading to him bringing him down and conceding a penalty?
posted on 10/9/19
Yeah its a myth stat, can't remember who but someone online has pointed out that he has had the ball taken past him several times.
posted on 10/9/19
But there are people online saying it's true.
posted on 10/9/19
https://twitter.com/i/status/1171332483142639617
The girl represents all those pocketed elite strikers.
posted on 10/9/19
comment by Willian Dollar Baby (U22238)
posted 1 hour, 15 minutes ago
comment by Nickasaurus (U9257)
posted 1 day, 18 hours ago
comment by Metro.⚽️ (U6770)
posted 3 hours, 21 minutes ago
I’ve never known a defender to player 50 odd games and never be taken on.
It’s a miraculous stat - especially when you consider the calibre of his opponents .. Hazard, Aguero, Mbappe, Neymar, Lewandoski, Messi, Suarez etc.
To top off a season with that statistic with a European Cup is extraordinary - and should see him pick up the Ballon D’orr.
Lastly, Messi came out second best in the two encounters with each other.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Myth stat apparently he did but it doesn’t take into account fouls and other differentials.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The stat is basically he hasn't been dribbled past while attempting a tackle.
Which is hugely impressive in itself but when it's misleading to say he hasn't been dribbled past full stop, for example didn't Sane walse past him at Anfield last season leading to him bringing him down and conceding a penalty?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That counts as a foul, not a dribble past. The 'dribble past' metric applies to everyone. If you feel that it's faulty then it's opta stats you should aim your questions at.
For the last time, and do try to remember it, 'dribbled past' means that the defender needs to put in a failed tackle in order to count, but is considered only a foul when the attacker is brought down.
posted on 10/9/19
was just a stat that ended up happening and someone noticed it was absurd amount of games, not sure why some people got butthurt about it
posted on 10/9/19
And to end this useless debate: Yes van dijk deserves the award based on his influence and his individual performances for his club and national team.
Influence.
While people tend to believe that his teammates fail Messi when the Argentine doesn't deliver they also are of the 'understanding' that it's all Messi who's the one-man-army when he delivers. Of course this is a silly argument since he can underperform just like anyone else. Van Dijk has been more consistent (club and country) while he also makes his teammates better and grants an aura of invincibility that is not easily shattered.
Barca has houdehold names, Liverpool has a mix of young talent, experienced players of lower skill tier and a few worldclass players. the Dutchman doesn't need an embarrassment of riches to perform. The best example for this is the national team. We saw how both Liverpool and the Netherlands were playing on a higher level when van dijk started to pull the strings. It was through his influence. Messi is still struggling with Argentina and in the Champions League to perform like the monster that he is in la Liga - a league that had little competition for Barcelona last season with the decline of Madrid. The Spanish competition is one of the strongest, but I feel the EPL is more competitive.
I'd say van dijk has been a better player as a defender than Messi has been as a striker, despite his impressive goal tally. You have to remember that scoring a lot of goals is less important than scoring enough goals at the right times to win the important games. By the same token, keeping the clean sheets and being able to soak the opponents pressure when the forwards had a not so stellar spell was key to the succes. (Would VAR have played a role last season it would be possibility that City wouldn't finish 1st.)
Performance
As mentioned, the goals scored by Messi stands on itself. We all acknowledge this great feat. There is no matrix of comparison to compare goals scored vs goals stopped. But we can all agree that scoring goals takes more talent than stopping them. For van dijk to make a claim on best footballer he'd need an astounding season of defensive performances to even be considered as a potential winner. We can put the boring dribbled past debate aside. So what do we know? Statswise both Messi and van dijk set the bar. If anyone need more confirmation:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3VMNeuWAAAeIbN.png
People could argue that van dijk has the best back pairing in the league. What they forget is that Robertson and TAA's strength lies in their attacking prowess, not their defensive power (although Andrew did make a few very good defending actions). However both are prone to being caught out. This has happened on numerous occasions. This puts pressure on both cb's positional awareness, anticipation, speed and call to action. The three midfielders are engaged in pressing with one midfielder slotting in between the two cb's (although this season Klopp plays more in a 2-5-3) This accentuates the importance of being individually apt in an unforgiving formation deployed by Klopp.
Van Dijk has been important at both ends of the pitch. The goal and assist against Bayern in the Champions League, the run he made (that also clocked the highest speed in the competition) to prevent Barca getting a 4th goal (Andrew blocked the pass, but if van dijk didn't run with the other Barca player it would have been an easy pass and likely a goal), the block against Son's run towards the keeper in the final, the crucial goal he scored against Germany to put his country in the final and the individual performances against the top top sides deems him one of the most consistent performers at the highest stage.
Messi is Messi but is not a complete attacking player. (Not saying that he has to be) For instance, he's not good in the air while van dijk virtually has no weaknesses and plays a clean game where he doesn't need to make a foul (or a sliding tackle) to win the ball. Add his fear factor, leadership, organizing skills and football IQ and nobody can deny that he's as complete as it gets. Not just as a defender, but as a footballer. Obviously he'll never be a prolific goalscorer, but it shows that he can be effective at both ends of the pitch. Everything considered this increases his value as A player. I also feel like he makes the game look easy. So basically he's not performing at peak performance to look worldclass. Perhaps this is where his 'arrogance' stems from. His coolness and yes, even some laziness at times. I reckon Messi doesn't have many, if any, defensive duties and has to work hard(er) to achieve what he does.
Forget the EPL legends. If van dijk keeps this form untill the end of his career he will be named in the same sentence as the all time greats like Maldini and Beckenbauwer.
posted on 10/9/19
Whose gonna read all that!
posted on 10/9/19
I did.
Im not sure Messi does struggle in the CL, he knocked in 12 goals last season I think and were it not for him Barca wouldnt have got near us in that tie really.
He's also good in the air for his height.
But at the same time is will be and shouldnt be any surprise to see VVD win it.
Page 7 of 13
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