Would you rather have 20 half chances and maybe score 1 goal, or 8 better quality chances and score 2?
One wonders if trying to accommodate both strikers would actually ensure we realised that we had to focus more defensively and then maybe those gilt edged chances for the opposition are minimised.
At very least I would like to see Eddie given more of a chance and I'd also like to see Eddie and Bamford combination tried at some point.
I believe the issues that Bielsa has to solve (and this is his job as coach) are:
How to get Bamford scoring
How to best use Eddie
How to best use Costa
How to get more goals from midfielders
How to make more from corners
Addressing the gilt edged chances we give the opposition
Don't have to address all those fully, BUT, if he gets a couple more goals fro Bamford, a couple more from Eddie, gets Costa producing a couple more decent efforts, gets Klich scoring a couple more (he scored 10 last season), gets just 2/3 goals from corners, and gives away 2/3 goals less from opposition chances, that is major cumulative impact, just some marginal gains in each of those areas could make the difference between going up or not.
I'm sure he's considering all those things, I'm sure he could make a difference in all those things, but he needs to choose to address them. The last thing I want is that we see the same issues all season long and we hear the same 'we made more chances, we were better team, but we're inefficient' as we just miss out, that would be unacceptable to have not learnt any lessons from what we've seen.
I still vividly remember Wigan game last season, they went down to 10 men and I was thinking you're in for a very long afternoon, but Wigan made a mockery of that as they knew the Bielsa style would offer them those gilt edged chances. That result was stunning and we never properly recovered, we cannot allow that Achilles heel to haunt us again this season.
comment by VOF - are we there yet? (U17124)
posted 11 hours, 18 minutes ago
I think it’s a really good thread Jonty.
My take on things, for what it’s worth, is that we’ve a bright intelligent striker who’s perhaps overthinking things (because he’s bright), & he’s carrying the role of sole striker too much. The more he misses, the more he thinks, so on and so on. We’ve got Eddie in the wings & perhaps it’s time to try him. A Saiz like player who draws defenders would help too I’m sure.
We create, we play well mostly - though corners need a rethink as we’re useless for the most part, but all in all, if we tucked a few more of the chances away I think real confidence would flow. We seem a bit like arsenal of a few years ago, we seem to want to pass it into the net instead of kicking the lining out of the ball from time to time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting theory...so now you're suggesting he's too
intelligent to score...I had the same problem once
upon a time, turned out to be erectile dysfunction...
I wonder if Bamford is suffering the same problem,
judging by his body language?!
Think we’re actually really good defensively.
The problem is creating better chances.
If we going more defensive, I think results will get worse. We will create less and less.
Got to keep doing what we are doing, but the attacking players need improve final ball and striker needs to score more.
On costa, I’d swap him to the left. I doesn’t like using his right foot
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by VOF - are we there yet? (U17124)
posted 11 hours, 18 minutes ago
I think it’s a really good thread Jonty.
My take on things, for what it’s worth, is that we’ve a bright intelligent striker who’s perhaps overthinking things (because he’s bright), & he’s carrying the role of sole striker too much. The more he misses, the more he thinks, so on and so on. We’ve got Eddie in the wings & perhaps it’s time to try him. A Saiz like player who draws defenders would help too I’m sure.
We create, we play well mostly - though corners need a rethink as we’re useless for the most part, but all in all, if we tucked a few more of the chances away I think real confidence would flow. We seem a bit like arsenal of a few years ago, we seem to want to pass it into the net instead of kicking the lining out of the ball from time to time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting theory...so now you're suggesting he's too
intelligent to score...I had the same problem once
upon a time, turned out to be erectile dysfunction...
I wonder if Bamford is suffering the same problem,
judging by his body language?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Only once upon a time?
comment by LIW Radchancer (U8453)
posted 2 minutes ago
Think we’re actually really good defensively.
The problem is creating better chances.
If we going more defensive, I think results will get worse. We will create less and less.
Got to keep doing what we are doing, but the attacking players need improve final ball and striker needs to score more.
On costa, I’d swap him to the left. I doesn’t like using his right foot
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think we're better too, its trying to cut out these gilt edged chances we keep offering, don't want us to become more defensive, but maybe one less man committed quite so far forward when we know we're probably not going to score anyway won't hurt.
comment by VOF - are we there yet? (U17124)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by VOF - are we there yet? (U17124)
posted 11 hours, 18 minutes ago
I think it’s a really good thread Jonty.
My take on things, for what it’s worth, is that we’ve a bright intelligent striker who’s perhaps overthinking things (because he’s bright), & he’s carrying the role of sole striker too much. The more he misses, the more he thinks, so on and so on. We’ve got Eddie in the wings & perhaps it’s time to try him. A Saiz like player who draws defenders would help too I’m sure.
We create, we play well mostly - though corners need a rethink as we’re useless for the most part, but all in all, if we tucked a few more of the chances away I think real confidence would flow. We seem a bit like arsenal of a few years ago, we seem to want to pass it into the net instead of kicking the lining out of the ball from time to time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting theory...so now you're suggesting he's too
intelligent to score...I had the same problem once
upon a time, turned out to be erectile dysfunction...
I wonder if Bamford is suffering the same problem,
judging by his body language?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Only once upon a time?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I bought some cream!
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
comment by VOF - are we there yet? (U17124)
posted 11 hours, 18 minutes ago
I think it’s a really good thread Jonty.
My take on things, for what it’s worth, is that we’ve a bright intelligent striker who’s perhaps overthinking things (because he’s bright), & he’s carrying the role of sole striker too much. The more he misses, the more he thinks, so on and so on. We’ve got Eddie in the wings & perhaps it’s time to try him. A Saiz like player who draws defenders would help too I’m sure.
We create, we play well mostly - though corners need a rethink as we’re useless for the most part, but all in all, if we tucked a few more of the chances away I think real confidence would flow. We seem a bit like arsenal of a few years ago, we seem to want to pass it into the net instead of kicking the lining out of the ball from time to time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting theory...so now you're suggesting he's too
intelligent to score...I had the same problem once
upon a time, turned out to be erectile dysfunction...
I wonder if Bamford is suffering the same problem,
judging by his body language?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think he means he’s over thinking? Maybe his intelligence puts him on a different wavelength?
However that’s for the coach and players to address. No way should we be 13 games in and the players not knowing where each and everyone of them is going to make a run - especially Bamford.
This might sound mad or stupid or both but against the weaker opposition, especially at home, do we really need Phillips sat in front of the back four as an extra defender? I’m not saying replace him But why not let him be a little more further forward. He proved last weekend that he can score when the opportunity presents itself. Something other midfielders have failed to do so far this season. Even Pablo is struggling to get in the score sheet regularly.
Basically we cannot afford to rely on just the forwards to get the goals needed. Midfield/defence have to chip in at least 25 goals and at this stage that looks a tall order.
Even Pablo is struggling to get in the score sheet regularly.
------
Maybe he'd struggle less if he was in the team
Pablo's good. But even he needs to be on the pitch to score.
With your list of problems I think had we fixed the first, most of the rest would sort themselves out.
Bamford takes chances in the game earlier....
Creates more space for midfielders to score.
Can bring Eddie on to a game with space in behind.
Negates the need for us to pile so many man forward leaving us open at the back.
Just leaves Costa & Corners, which are not nearly as much of a concern because of the above.
It could only happen at Leeds....
A manager who can't speak English, a neurotic
Spanish goalkeeper and a striker who is too
intelligent to score goals...not to mention players
with pony tails...
When the transfer window opens let's try our luck
with a striker who is as thick as a plank, what have
we got to lose?!
This is a really interesting discussion, providing plenty of food for thought. The one saving grace for us is that every team is dropping points at the moment. Forest losing at home to Hull, West Brom drawing at home to Barnsley, are just the latest surprises. Not one team is stamping its authority in the league.
Our football is in a different class, and opposition managers are in agreement about this. That doesn't mean we are unbeatable though. So we are left with the feeling that once we crack this scoring conundrum, our prayers will be answered and we will be promoted.
The focus has been on Bamford and Nketiah, but if Klich, Costa, Harrison and Dallas had been chipping in, would we be making such a big deal of Bamford's slump in form?
Once we start to look beyond the obvious, we begin to see imbalances of responsibility and capacity in the team. These imbalances are hard to pin down, because they shift in and out of focus, according to who is playing, and what form they are in, but we are beginning to see patterns repeating themselves, and these have been picked up by opposing teams. Each team has their issues in this division, which is why Barnsley and Reading and Huddersfield can get results at any time against supposedly better placed teams.
We are one of the better teams in this league because of Bielsa's vision, but we are hindered because he cannot vary his style to match the opponents we are playing.
We have also been hit by injuries to key players and, as usual, we did not plan for this in building our squad in the pre-season. It would be nice to think there will be funds available in January to buy a proven striker, but it would have been a lot nicer to have done that piece of business in August.
So what can we do as supporters? For one, we have to take the pressure off Bamford. He is committed to the cause and he needs our support, not our condemnation.
Secondly, we have to acknowledge that Bielsa places huge expectations on players in terms of positional awareness, exertion, exercise and regimen - it can't be fun to train with LUFC. We have asked the question if this is causing our players to break down on the pitch, especially last season with the number of injuries we had. I am beginning to wonder whether playing for LUFC is an enjoyable experience for our players.
Finally, and a number of posters have said this, we need to be patient. This is a marathon, not a sprint. The margins between success and failure are miniscule in this league and every team experiences both. The winners are the ones with resilience and ferocity of spirit. We are so close to making it happen and as one poster put it earlier, we have not been out of the top six under Bielsa. As ever, keep the faith and enjoy the ride.
Secondly, we have to acknowledge that Bielsa places huge expectations on players in terms of positional awareness, exertion, exercise and regimen - it can't be fun to train with LUFC. We have asked the question if this is causing our players to break down on the pitch, especially last season with the number of injuries we had. I am beginning to wonder whether playing for LUFC is an enjoyable experience for our players.
---------
Really interesting point. I understand players were message in pre-season asking if they wanted to return or leave and a number of them chose the latter.....I'm not sure its that easy behind the scenes.
This also might sound crazy, but I don't think I've seen a single video of Bielsa training patterns whilst having opponents on the field. All the videos at Leeds I have seen is with player mannequins, remember Bamford training comeback goal etc.
I can't believe that all training is like this, but if there is a bias to training like this it could explain a lot, it simply does not take into account any possible movement from opponents.
Players deserve a lot of praise for how hard they work. Kinnear's interview with Talking Shutt recently, he mentioned how surprised they were that the players last season really bought into working hard and a big increase in training hours. Bielsa has big expectations but I think this squad are prepared to run through brick walls for him and really take on board what he says, which explains his loyalty to the starting 11. If you don't do that like Saiz or Pontus, you're out.
I think Stoopo's idea about Phillips is an interesting one.His core role is doing what he does sat in front of that defence or dropping into defence.However Bielsa's teams and tactics are all about versatility and people dropping in to cover.
It might be if we are getting no joy in a game to mix it up, let someone else drop in e.g Forshaw once fit and Phillips can join the attacks and he does have goals in his game.
A different calibre of player but I remember Yaya Toure in his pomp for City playing c65-70 minutes in the deeper role and then he would get further up the pitch and play a more attacking role.
It's an option and not saying he moves out of his main position but identifying times in a game when it is worth changing it up and giving opposition something else to think about.
Sign in if you want to comment
The root of the problem
Page 3 of 3
posted on 24/10/19
Would you rather have 20 half chances and maybe score 1 goal, or 8 better quality chances and score 2?
One wonders if trying to accommodate both strikers would actually ensure we realised that we had to focus more defensively and then maybe those gilt edged chances for the opposition are minimised.
At very least I would like to see Eddie given more of a chance and I'd also like to see Eddie and Bamford combination tried at some point.
I believe the issues that Bielsa has to solve (and this is his job as coach) are:
How to get Bamford scoring
How to best use Eddie
How to best use Costa
How to get more goals from midfielders
How to make more from corners
Addressing the gilt edged chances we give the opposition
Don't have to address all those fully, BUT, if he gets a couple more goals fro Bamford, a couple more from Eddie, gets Costa producing a couple more decent efforts, gets Klich scoring a couple more (he scored 10 last season), gets just 2/3 goals from corners, and gives away 2/3 goals less from opposition chances, that is major cumulative impact, just some marginal gains in each of those areas could make the difference between going up or not.
I'm sure he's considering all those things, I'm sure he could make a difference in all those things, but he needs to choose to address them. The last thing I want is that we see the same issues all season long and we hear the same 'we made more chances, we were better team, but we're inefficient' as we just miss out, that would be unacceptable to have not learnt any lessons from what we've seen.
I still vividly remember Wigan game last season, they went down to 10 men and I was thinking you're in for a very long afternoon, but Wigan made a mockery of that as they knew the Bielsa style would offer them those gilt edged chances. That result was stunning and we never properly recovered, we cannot allow that Achilles heel to haunt us again this season.
posted on 24/10/19
comment by VOF - are we there yet? (U17124)
posted 11 hours, 18 minutes ago
I think it’s a really good thread Jonty.
My take on things, for what it’s worth, is that we’ve a bright intelligent striker who’s perhaps overthinking things (because he’s bright), & he’s carrying the role of sole striker too much. The more he misses, the more he thinks, so on and so on. We’ve got Eddie in the wings & perhaps it’s time to try him. A Saiz like player who draws defenders would help too I’m sure.
We create, we play well mostly - though corners need a rethink as we’re useless for the most part, but all in all, if we tucked a few more of the chances away I think real confidence would flow. We seem a bit like arsenal of a few years ago, we seem to want to pass it into the net instead of kicking the lining out of the ball from time to time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting theory...so now you're suggesting he's too
intelligent to score...I had the same problem once
upon a time, turned out to be erectile dysfunction...
I wonder if Bamford is suffering the same problem,
judging by his body language?!
posted on 24/10/19
Think we’re actually really good defensively.
The problem is creating better chances.
If we going more defensive, I think results will get worse. We will create less and less.
Got to keep doing what we are doing, but the attacking players need improve final ball and striker needs to score more.
On costa, I’d swap him to the left. I doesn’t like using his right foot
posted on 24/10/19
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by VOF - are we there yet? (U17124)
posted 11 hours, 18 minutes ago
I think it’s a really good thread Jonty.
My take on things, for what it’s worth, is that we’ve a bright intelligent striker who’s perhaps overthinking things (because he’s bright), & he’s carrying the role of sole striker too much. The more he misses, the more he thinks, so on and so on. We’ve got Eddie in the wings & perhaps it’s time to try him. A Saiz like player who draws defenders would help too I’m sure.
We create, we play well mostly - though corners need a rethink as we’re useless for the most part, but all in all, if we tucked a few more of the chances away I think real confidence would flow. We seem a bit like arsenal of a few years ago, we seem to want to pass it into the net instead of kicking the lining out of the ball from time to time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting theory...so now you're suggesting he's too
intelligent to score...I had the same problem once
upon a time, turned out to be erectile dysfunction...
I wonder if Bamford is suffering the same problem,
judging by his body language?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Only once upon a time?
posted on 24/10/19
comment by LIW Radchancer (U8453)
posted 2 minutes ago
Think we’re actually really good defensively.
The problem is creating better chances.
If we going more defensive, I think results will get worse. We will create less and less.
Got to keep doing what we are doing, but the attacking players need improve final ball and striker needs to score more.
On costa, I’d swap him to the left. I doesn’t like using his right foot
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think we're better too, its trying to cut out these gilt edged chances we keep offering, don't want us to become more defensive, but maybe one less man committed quite so far forward when we know we're probably not going to score anyway won't hurt.
posted on 24/10/19
comment by VOF - are we there yet? (U17124)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by VOF - are we there yet? (U17124)
posted 11 hours, 18 minutes ago
I think it’s a really good thread Jonty.
My take on things, for what it’s worth, is that we’ve a bright intelligent striker who’s perhaps overthinking things (because he’s bright), & he’s carrying the role of sole striker too much. The more he misses, the more he thinks, so on and so on. We’ve got Eddie in the wings & perhaps it’s time to try him. A Saiz like player who draws defenders would help too I’m sure.
We create, we play well mostly - though corners need a rethink as we’re useless for the most part, but all in all, if we tucked a few more of the chances away I think real confidence would flow. We seem a bit like arsenal of a few years ago, we seem to want to pass it into the net instead of kicking the lining out of the ball from time to time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting theory...so now you're suggesting he's too
intelligent to score...I had the same problem once
upon a time, turned out to be erectile dysfunction...
I wonder if Bamford is suffering the same problem,
judging by his body language?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Only once upon a time?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I bought some cream!
posted on 24/10/19
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
comment by VOF - are we there yet? (U17124)
posted 11 hours, 18 minutes ago
I think it’s a really good thread Jonty.
My take on things, for what it’s worth, is that we’ve a bright intelligent striker who’s perhaps overthinking things (because he’s bright), & he’s carrying the role of sole striker too much. The more he misses, the more he thinks, so on and so on. We’ve got Eddie in the wings & perhaps it’s time to try him. A Saiz like player who draws defenders would help too I’m sure.
We create, we play well mostly - though corners need a rethink as we’re useless for the most part, but all in all, if we tucked a few more of the chances away I think real confidence would flow. We seem a bit like arsenal of a few years ago, we seem to want to pass it into the net instead of kicking the lining out of the ball from time to time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting theory...so now you're suggesting he's too
intelligent to score...I had the same problem once
upon a time, turned out to be erectile dysfunction...
I wonder if Bamford is suffering the same problem,
judging by his body language?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think he means he’s over thinking? Maybe his intelligence puts him on a different wavelength?
However that’s for the coach and players to address. No way should we be 13 games in and the players not knowing where each and everyone of them is going to make a run - especially Bamford.
This might sound mad or stupid or both but against the weaker opposition, especially at home, do we really need Phillips sat in front of the back four as an extra defender? I’m not saying replace him But why not let him be a little more further forward. He proved last weekend that he can score when the opportunity presents itself. Something other midfielders have failed to do so far this season. Even Pablo is struggling to get in the score sheet regularly.
posted on 24/10/19
Basically we cannot afford to rely on just the forwards to get the goals needed. Midfield/defence have to chip in at least 25 goals and at this stage that looks a tall order.
posted on 24/10/19
Even Pablo is struggling to get in the score sheet regularly.
------
Maybe he'd struggle less if he was in the team
posted on 24/10/19
Pablo's good. But even he needs to be on the pitch to score.
With your list of problems I think had we fixed the first, most of the rest would sort themselves out.
Bamford takes chances in the game earlier....
Creates more space for midfielders to score.
Can bring Eddie on to a game with space in behind.
Negates the need for us to pile so many man forward leaving us open at the back.
Just leaves Costa & Corners, which are not nearly as much of a concern because of the above.
posted on 24/10/19
It could only happen at Leeds....
A manager who can't speak English, a neurotic
Spanish goalkeeper and a striker who is too
intelligent to score goals...not to mention players
with pony tails...
When the transfer window opens let's try our luck
with a striker who is as thick as a plank, what have
we got to lose?!
posted on 24/10/19
This is a really interesting discussion, providing plenty of food for thought. The one saving grace for us is that every team is dropping points at the moment. Forest losing at home to Hull, West Brom drawing at home to Barnsley, are just the latest surprises. Not one team is stamping its authority in the league.
Our football is in a different class, and opposition managers are in agreement about this. That doesn't mean we are unbeatable though. So we are left with the feeling that once we crack this scoring conundrum, our prayers will be answered and we will be promoted.
The focus has been on Bamford and Nketiah, but if Klich, Costa, Harrison and Dallas had been chipping in, would we be making such a big deal of Bamford's slump in form?
Once we start to look beyond the obvious, we begin to see imbalances of responsibility and capacity in the team. These imbalances are hard to pin down, because they shift in and out of focus, according to who is playing, and what form they are in, but we are beginning to see patterns repeating themselves, and these have been picked up by opposing teams. Each team has their issues in this division, which is why Barnsley and Reading and Huddersfield can get results at any time against supposedly better placed teams.
We are one of the better teams in this league because of Bielsa's vision, but we are hindered because he cannot vary his style to match the opponents we are playing.
We have also been hit by injuries to key players and, as usual, we did not plan for this in building our squad in the pre-season. It would be nice to think there will be funds available in January to buy a proven striker, but it would have been a lot nicer to have done that piece of business in August.
So what can we do as supporters? For one, we have to take the pressure off Bamford. He is committed to the cause and he needs our support, not our condemnation.
Secondly, we have to acknowledge that Bielsa places huge expectations on players in terms of positional awareness, exertion, exercise and regimen - it can't be fun to train with LUFC. We have asked the question if this is causing our players to break down on the pitch, especially last season with the number of injuries we had. I am beginning to wonder whether playing for LUFC is an enjoyable experience for our players.
Finally, and a number of posters have said this, we need to be patient. This is a marathon, not a sprint. The margins between success and failure are miniscule in this league and every team experiences both. The winners are the ones with resilience and ferocity of spirit. We are so close to making it happen and as one poster put it earlier, we have not been out of the top six under Bielsa. As ever, keep the faith and enjoy the ride.
posted on 24/10/19
Secondly, we have to acknowledge that Bielsa places huge expectations on players in terms of positional awareness, exertion, exercise and regimen - it can't be fun to train with LUFC. We have asked the question if this is causing our players to break down on the pitch, especially last season with the number of injuries we had. I am beginning to wonder whether playing for LUFC is an enjoyable experience for our players.
---------
Really interesting point. I understand players were message in pre-season asking if they wanted to return or leave and a number of them chose the latter.....I'm not sure its that easy behind the scenes.
This also might sound crazy, but I don't think I've seen a single video of Bielsa training patterns whilst having opponents on the field. All the videos at Leeds I have seen is with player mannequins, remember Bamford training comeback goal etc.
I can't believe that all training is like this, but if there is a bias to training like this it could explain a lot, it simply does not take into account any possible movement from opponents.
posted on 24/10/19
Players deserve a lot of praise for how hard they work. Kinnear's interview with Talking Shutt recently, he mentioned how surprised they were that the players last season really bought into working hard and a big increase in training hours. Bielsa has big expectations but I think this squad are prepared to run through brick walls for him and really take on board what he says, which explains his loyalty to the starting 11. If you don't do that like Saiz or Pontus, you're out.
posted on 24/10/19
I think Stoopo's idea about Phillips is an interesting one.His core role is doing what he does sat in front of that defence or dropping into defence.However Bielsa's teams and tactics are all about versatility and people dropping in to cover.
It might be if we are getting no joy in a game to mix it up, let someone else drop in e.g Forshaw once fit and Phillips can join the attacks and he does have goals in his game.
A different calibre of player but I remember Yaya Toure in his pomp for City playing c65-70 minutes in the deeper role and then he would get further up the pitch and play a more attacking role.
It's an option and not saying he moves out of his main position but identifying times in a game when it is worth changing it up and giving opposition something else to think about.
Page 3 of 3