From my union days I remember one of the things you can be sacked for is frustration of contract. As the injury Keogh sustained will prevent him playing until his contract ends then that is obviously the case. Had Keogh suffered the same injury playing then I doubt that frustration of contract would have been invoked. Look at the way Shaun Barker was treated after his nightmare knee injury.
Again tho, it's the statement that is infuriating.
The club are trying to appear like they care, like it's being done to set a positive example, when the actual actions speak otherwise. Trying to take the moral higher ground while actually lying in a ditch.
Had they simple said that Keogh's off the field activities and poor decision making had almost certainly ended his chances of playing for the club again, and therefore was sacked because he had no value, but the others were being kept on because they are still 'fit' and have value then it would be seen as immoral, but at least honest.
All this about not tolerating those putting the public and teammates in danger tho reads like a prewritten statement for the other two. Keogh being drunk is not putting the public in danger any more than the ball taking a wild deflection off him and hitting a member of the crowd instead of the back of our net. The club are treating the public like they're stupid.
comment by Backo (U1486)
posted 18 minutes ago
So every player done for drink driving have been sacked have they??
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, but they crashed!
comment by Wetherby White - (Formally Harrogate) (U6810)
posted 22 minutes ago
If I was working for a company and went out on a works do, smashed into someone whilst off my face injuring another employee and bring the company name into disrepute, I would expect to be instantly sacked.
Derby could have saved some face by sacking all involved and if it was Leeds players, I would be urging us to do the same.
These guys are not role models, but they are supported by paying customers week in week out.
Should be sacked.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you were manager at company and you were tasked with keeping eye on younger employees in night out, ensuring they stuck to company rules on drinking and representing club and ensuring they took company taxis home but instead you encouraged them to break rules, drink, mess about and then drive themselves home you would surely expect some action from your company.
Not trying to excuse the drink drivers but do feel that Keogh probably should have been more in control not least in showing utter lack of leadership by not taking company car home himself instead choosing to go in back of drunk drivers car. This alone would suggest that he himself was utterly incapable of rational judgement due to his own level of intoxication.
The club has actually punished the two as far as it is allowed to do by the terms of their contract. 6 weeks' wage is the maximum permissible fine. Sacking them is only a punishment if another club does not employ them. It might make us feel better as fans but it would harm the club financially, leave the squad weaker, and benefit whichever rival club helped itself to a free out of contract player.
which is why I think the FA need to step in and start handing down 4-5 year bans.
players would be forced to go and play their trade elsewhere, probably on considerably lower wages.
we don't need that kind of rolemodel playing his trade in our leagues.
such behavior would likely stop overnight.
comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 6 minutes ago
The club has actually punished the two as far as it is allowed to do by the terms of their contract. 6 weeks' wage is the maximum permissible fine. Sacking them is only a punishment if another club does not employ them. It might make us feel better as fans but it would harm the club financially, leave the squad weaker, and benefit whichever rival club helped itself to a free out of contract player.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Should we be thinking about punishment or should we be thinking about the standards of the club and what we want the identity and culture of our club to be?
It’s not easy in these days of money and competitiveness and I don’t think my own club has covered itself in glory in the past, but I believe if clubs want a culture and identity then these are issues the clubs need to stand firm on AND the football governing bodies need to stand firm on as well.
comment by Wetherby White - (Formally Harrogate) (U6810)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by Backo (U1486)
posted 18 minutes ago
So every player done for drink driving have been sacked have they??
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, but they crashed!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People crash sober. Crashing is not the issue. Bennett didn't crash by the way.
And for all saying its because Keogh is injured and Derby are disgusting...blah blah blah....Keogh is in breach of contract by his own doing. Derby County looked after Shaun Barker when he was virtually crippled by 3 to 4 more years of a contract. He never played for Derby again but they still looked after him.
There was an issue with Barker that the club messed up his insurance so then they felt morally obliged to look after him.
Jonty
How would what you suggest work in practice? Should all clubs sign up to a code that says no player can work ever gain for any club if they are ever convicted of any crime? Obviously that would be ridiculous as well as illegal. Would all clubs sign up to a drink-driving code? No, as has been proven by incidents with players like Firmino and our own players. At the end of the day clubs need to make their own decisions about such things, and where crimes have been committed then the courts will do what they need to do. For a player with little value then it's a simple enough thing to sack them but if you have a player like Firmino worth 100 million pounds or more then it's naive to expect Liverpool to chuck him out of the door. Naturally all Leeds players are whiter than white but let's pretend that, say, Kalvin Phillips did something similar. I doubt there would be unanimity amongst Leeds fans to allow a prized asset to go to another club of his choice for nothing.
I don't think Derby have handled this at all well but the punishment given to the players is in fact much greater than that dished out to the likes of Firmino, Yaya Toure, Hugo Lloris and other higher-profile stars. Possibly the community service is a bigger punishment than the crime, if it involves genuine grubby work which of course it might not do.
comment by Backo (U1486)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by Wetherby White - (Formally Harrogate) (U6810)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by Backo (U1486)
posted 18 minutes ago
So every player done for drink driving have been sacked have they??
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, but they crashed!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People crash sober. Crashing is not the issue. Bennett didn't crash by the way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So if you kill someone because you were drunk behind the wheel, it doesn't matter because people crash when sober as well?
Simple question Backo, just answer it.
comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 20 minutes ago
Jonty
How would what you suggest work in practice? Should all clubs sign up to a code that says no player can work ever gain for any club if they are ever convicted of any crime? Obviously that would be ridiculous as well as illegal. Would all clubs sign up to a drink-driving code? No, as has been proven by incidents with players like Firmino and our own players. At the end of the day clubs need to make their own decisions about such things, and where crimes have been committed then the courts will do what they need to do. For a player with little value then it's a simple enough thing to sack them but if you have a player like Firmino worth 100 million pounds or more then it's naive to expect Liverpool to chuck him out of the door. Naturally all Leeds players are whiter than white but let's pretend that, say, Kalvin Phillips did something similar. I doubt there would be unanimity amongst Leeds fans to allow a prized asset to go to another club of his choice for nothing.
I don't think Derby have handled this at all well but the punishment given to the players is in fact much greater than that dished out to the likes of Firmino, Yaya Toure, Hugo Lloris and other higher-profile stars. Possibly the community service is a bigger punishment than the crime, if it involves genuine grubby work which of course it might not do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Let’s not start by putting words into my mouth in this.
I would suggest that there might be a code of conduct that clubs and players agree to regarding certain crimes.
For example, if player commits crime A and is convicted by court of law if crime A then that player would be released from contract from club, barred from football did say 12 months and if wanting to return to football would have to be purchased by a club at the prevailing rate at time of offence.
So let’s say player convicted of crime A is worth 59 mill at the time is out of football for a year then new club would have to pay old club 50 mill or old club could re instate them.
It’s just an idea to try and ensure consistent standards and some sort of moral compass whilst also protecting the players club.
Football has to decide if it wants to see itself as a role model in sport.
The silence by the FA and idiots like Jim White is sickening.
This is far worse than Spygate or some kid betting on some games.
When you kill someone when drink driving it then becomes a different offence. I think you are being deliberately obtuse Wetherby. As they say in court, stick to the facts, not what might have happened. Every time you drive a car you could potentially kill someone. Fortunately that is rare even if over the limit for alcohol.
A short drive home late at night, very little risk to the public even when drunk. Poor decision making on their part and fortunately no fatalities other than Keogh's career.
comment by Wetherby White - (Formally Harrogate) (U6810)
posted 15 minutes ago
Simple question Backo, just answer it.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Are you for real??
If somebody was killed its obviously a whole new ball game. People have been killed by sober drivers.
You are trying to add something that didn't happen. Oli McBurnie was done for drink driving 2 weeks ago. Sheff Utd have done nothing. Keogh is in breach of contract. Simple as that. By his own actions.
Bielsa should have been sacked.
I'm not being obtuse, but by backo's standards something as serious as crashing a car when drunk isn't that bad because it can happen when sober too.
There is huge difference I'm afraid.
comment by Backo (U1486)
posted 1 minute ago
Bielsa should have been sacked.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sacked for what
In some Country's if you're found Guilty of speeding they look at what you earn and the more you earn the higher the penalty!..
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2981363/Finnish-man-given-40-000-speeding-ticket-going-14mph-limit.html
If that law was for speeding or drink driving in all countries it'd make these so called,(and other!)roll models think about their actions!..
As for Keogh, he was injured in a car accident while under the influence, he is now out for 15 months, what should Derby do to support him, pay for his treatment and wages until he is fit to play again?..
Big possibility after all the treatment he receives and wages paid he won't be able to play again!..
His own fault so he should live with it!..
Jonty, I agree with your general idea but it would be unworkable. There is no chance of clubs agreeing to it. They have too much to lose. Also how would you decide what a player is worth?
comment by Wetherby White - (Formally Harrogate) (U6810)
posted 18 minutes ago
I'm not being obtuse, but by backo's standards something as serious as crashing a car when drunk isn't that bad because it can happen when sober too.
There is huge difference I'm afraid.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah. And they have been dealt with by the club and the courts. You are trying to add "the killing" bit which didn't happen. People can be killed by a sober driver. Did they go to court because they killed someone or because of a drink driving offence? There is the huge difference.
Also they didn't just crash when drunk.
They crashed, injured the captain of team, and according to the court reports, fled (why?) only to return later.
How did they get away? how did they return?
As I said, at the very least Cocu should go for bringing them back in the team, if we're to keep them, they should not be playing, they've brought shame and disrepute to the club, and a _terrible_ example has been set for all.
Sign in if you want to comment
Richard Keogh sacked by Derby
Page 4 of 7
6 | 7
posted on 31/10/19
From my union days I remember one of the things you can be sacked for is frustration of contract. As the injury Keogh sustained will prevent him playing until his contract ends then that is obviously the case. Had Keogh suffered the same injury playing then I doubt that frustration of contract would have been invoked. Look at the way Shaun Barker was treated after his nightmare knee injury.
posted on 31/10/19
Again tho, it's the statement that is infuriating.
The club are trying to appear like they care, like it's being done to set a positive example, when the actual actions speak otherwise. Trying to take the moral higher ground while actually lying in a ditch.
Had they simple said that Keogh's off the field activities and poor decision making had almost certainly ended his chances of playing for the club again, and therefore was sacked because he had no value, but the others were being kept on because they are still 'fit' and have value then it would be seen as immoral, but at least honest.
All this about not tolerating those putting the public and teammates in danger tho reads like a prewritten statement for the other two. Keogh being drunk is not putting the public in danger any more than the ball taking a wild deflection off him and hitting a member of the crowd instead of the back of our net. The club are treating the public like they're stupid.
posted on 31/10/19
comment by Backo (U1486)
posted 18 minutes ago
So every player done for drink driving have been sacked have they??
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, but they crashed!
posted on 31/10/19
comment by Wetherby White - (Formally Harrogate) (U6810)
posted 22 minutes ago
If I was working for a company and went out on a works do, smashed into someone whilst off my face injuring another employee and bring the company name into disrepute, I would expect to be instantly sacked.
Derby could have saved some face by sacking all involved and if it was Leeds players, I would be urging us to do the same.
These guys are not role models, but they are supported by paying customers week in week out.
Should be sacked.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you were manager at company and you were tasked with keeping eye on younger employees in night out, ensuring they stuck to company rules on drinking and representing club and ensuring they took company taxis home but instead you encouraged them to break rules, drink, mess about and then drive themselves home you would surely expect some action from your company.
Not trying to excuse the drink drivers but do feel that Keogh probably should have been more in control not least in showing utter lack of leadership by not taking company car home himself instead choosing to go in back of drunk drivers car. This alone would suggest that he himself was utterly incapable of rational judgement due to his own level of intoxication.
posted on 31/10/19
The club has actually punished the two as far as it is allowed to do by the terms of their contract. 6 weeks' wage is the maximum permissible fine. Sacking them is only a punishment if another club does not employ them. It might make us feel better as fans but it would harm the club financially, leave the squad weaker, and benefit whichever rival club helped itself to a free out of contract player.
posted on 31/10/19
which is why I think the FA need to step in and start handing down 4-5 year bans.
players would be forced to go and play their trade elsewhere, probably on considerably lower wages.
we don't need that kind of rolemodel playing his trade in our leagues.
such behavior would likely stop overnight.
posted on 31/10/19
comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 6 minutes ago
The club has actually punished the two as far as it is allowed to do by the terms of their contract. 6 weeks' wage is the maximum permissible fine. Sacking them is only a punishment if another club does not employ them. It might make us feel better as fans but it would harm the club financially, leave the squad weaker, and benefit whichever rival club helped itself to a free out of contract player.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Should we be thinking about punishment or should we be thinking about the standards of the club and what we want the identity and culture of our club to be?
It’s not easy in these days of money and competitiveness and I don’t think my own club has covered itself in glory in the past, but I believe if clubs want a culture and identity then these are issues the clubs need to stand firm on AND the football governing bodies need to stand firm on as well.
posted on 31/10/19
comment by Wetherby White - (Formally Harrogate) (U6810)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by Backo (U1486)
posted 18 minutes ago
So every player done for drink driving have been sacked have they??
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, but they crashed!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People crash sober. Crashing is not the issue. Bennett didn't crash by the way.
posted on 31/10/19
And for all saying its because Keogh is injured and Derby are disgusting...blah blah blah....Keogh is in breach of contract by his own doing. Derby County looked after Shaun Barker when he was virtually crippled by 3 to 4 more years of a contract. He never played for Derby again but they still looked after him.
posted on 31/10/19
There was an issue with Barker that the club messed up his insurance so then they felt morally obliged to look after him.
posted on 31/10/19
Jonty
How would what you suggest work in practice? Should all clubs sign up to a code that says no player can work ever gain for any club if they are ever convicted of any crime? Obviously that would be ridiculous as well as illegal. Would all clubs sign up to a drink-driving code? No, as has been proven by incidents with players like Firmino and our own players. At the end of the day clubs need to make their own decisions about such things, and where crimes have been committed then the courts will do what they need to do. For a player with little value then it's a simple enough thing to sack them but if you have a player like Firmino worth 100 million pounds or more then it's naive to expect Liverpool to chuck him out of the door. Naturally all Leeds players are whiter than white but let's pretend that, say, Kalvin Phillips did something similar. I doubt there would be unanimity amongst Leeds fans to allow a prized asset to go to another club of his choice for nothing.
I don't think Derby have handled this at all well but the punishment given to the players is in fact much greater than that dished out to the likes of Firmino, Yaya Toure, Hugo Lloris and other higher-profile stars. Possibly the community service is a bigger punishment than the crime, if it involves genuine grubby work which of course it might not do.
posted on 31/10/19
comment by Backo (U1486)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by Wetherby White - (Formally Harrogate) (U6810)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by Backo (U1486)
posted 18 minutes ago
So every player done for drink driving have been sacked have they??
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, but they crashed!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People crash sober. Crashing is not the issue. Bennett didn't crash by the way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So if you kill someone because you were drunk behind the wheel, it doesn't matter because people crash when sober as well?
posted on 31/10/19
Who was Killed?
posted on 31/10/19
Simple question Backo, just answer it.
posted on 31/10/19
comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 20 minutes ago
Jonty
How would what you suggest work in practice? Should all clubs sign up to a code that says no player can work ever gain for any club if they are ever convicted of any crime? Obviously that would be ridiculous as well as illegal. Would all clubs sign up to a drink-driving code? No, as has been proven by incidents with players like Firmino and our own players. At the end of the day clubs need to make their own decisions about such things, and where crimes have been committed then the courts will do what they need to do. For a player with little value then it's a simple enough thing to sack them but if you have a player like Firmino worth 100 million pounds or more then it's naive to expect Liverpool to chuck him out of the door. Naturally all Leeds players are whiter than white but let's pretend that, say, Kalvin Phillips did something similar. I doubt there would be unanimity amongst Leeds fans to allow a prized asset to go to another club of his choice for nothing.
I don't think Derby have handled this at all well but the punishment given to the players is in fact much greater than that dished out to the likes of Firmino, Yaya Toure, Hugo Lloris and other higher-profile stars. Possibly the community service is a bigger punishment than the crime, if it involves genuine grubby work which of course it might not do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Let’s not start by putting words into my mouth in this.
I would suggest that there might be a code of conduct that clubs and players agree to regarding certain crimes.
For example, if player commits crime A and is convicted by court of law if crime A then that player would be released from contract from club, barred from football did say 12 months and if wanting to return to football would have to be purchased by a club at the prevailing rate at time of offence.
So let’s say player convicted of crime A is worth 59 mill at the time is out of football for a year then new club would have to pay old club 50 mill or old club could re instate them.
It’s just an idea to try and ensure consistent standards and some sort of moral compass whilst also protecting the players club.
Football has to decide if it wants to see itself as a role model in sport.
posted on 31/10/19
The silence by the FA and idiots like Jim White is sickening.
This is far worse than Spygate or some kid betting on some games.
posted on 31/10/19
When you kill someone when drink driving it then becomes a different offence. I think you are being deliberately obtuse Wetherby. As they say in court, stick to the facts, not what might have happened. Every time you drive a car you could potentially kill someone. Fortunately that is rare even if over the limit for alcohol.
A short drive home late at night, very little risk to the public even when drunk. Poor decision making on their part and fortunately no fatalities other than Keogh's career.
posted on 31/10/19
comment by Wetherby White - (Formally Harrogate) (U6810)
posted 15 minutes ago
Simple question Backo, just answer it.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Are you for real??
If somebody was killed its obviously a whole new ball game. People have been killed by sober drivers.
You are trying to add something that didn't happen. Oli McBurnie was done for drink driving 2 weeks ago. Sheff Utd have done nothing. Keogh is in breach of contract. Simple as that. By his own actions.
posted on 31/10/19
Bielsa should have been sacked.
posted on 31/10/19
I'm not being obtuse, but by backo's standards something as serious as crashing a car when drunk isn't that bad because it can happen when sober too.
There is huge difference I'm afraid.
posted on 31/10/19
comment by Backo (U1486)
posted 1 minute ago
Bielsa should have been sacked.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sacked for what
posted on 31/10/19
In some Country's if you're found Guilty of speeding they look at what you earn and the more you earn the higher the penalty!..
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2981363/Finnish-man-given-40-000-speeding-ticket-going-14mph-limit.html
If that law was for speeding or drink driving in all countries it'd make these so called,(and other!)roll models think about their actions!..
As for Keogh, he was injured in a car accident while under the influence, he is now out for 15 months, what should Derby do to support him, pay for his treatment and wages until he is fit to play again?..
Big possibility after all the treatment he receives and wages paid he won't be able to play again!..
His own fault so he should live with it!..
posted on 31/10/19
Jonty, I agree with your general idea but it would be unworkable. There is no chance of clubs agreeing to it. They have too much to lose. Also how would you decide what a player is worth?
posted on 31/10/19
comment by Wetherby White - (Formally Harrogate) (U6810)
posted 18 minutes ago
I'm not being obtuse, but by backo's standards something as serious as crashing a car when drunk isn't that bad because it can happen when sober too.
There is huge difference I'm afraid.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah. And they have been dealt with by the club and the courts. You are trying to add "the killing" bit which didn't happen. People can be killed by a sober driver. Did they go to court because they killed someone or because of a drink driving offence? There is the huge difference.
posted on 31/10/19
Also they didn't just crash when drunk.
They crashed, injured the captain of team, and according to the court reports, fled (why?) only to return later.
How did they get away? how did they return?
As I said, at the very least Cocu should go for bringing them back in the team, if we're to keep them, they should not be playing, they've brought shame and disrepute to the club, and a _terrible_ example has been set for all.
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