If he's done it and is guilty (and they have allegedly used lip readers - remember Corbyn in Parliament with "stupid woman"?), the appropriate response is an absolute 100% proper personal apology to the player and to football in Britain, undertaking education, a long ban and fine by the FA, and a fine of the maximum amount allowed under the club's rules. I would also want to see him contributing to a charity against racism, and working with them for the next year
He could be sacked, but that does not turn around the culture within him.
comment by Klopptimus Prime - Die Unerträglichen (U1282)
posted 50 minutes ago
Depends on the evidence. If proven they should throw him under the bus, metaphorically speaking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Or we could get the squad to wear silly T-shirts showing their support to a racist on our next televised game.
Sounds like he's in deep sh 1T. Agree with Jonty, if true, he should be appropriately punished.
Lots of good debate here, great to see serious subject discussed with different views and respect.
On the topic of people taking offence too easily we do live in a world where people want to take offence and be outraged at slightest thing.
However, unless you’re black im not you you can truly realise what it feels like to always feel you’re discriminated against in some way and how ingrained stereotypes can be. Seeing abuse at English clubs as we’ve seen against black players here in prem shows how mainstream it really is and it’s great that football says it’s going to kick it out.
Players are of a generation now where they really should know the boundaries, older folk you can understand being a product of their generation but footballers are young enough to know.
Kiki is from a different culture, perhaps societally things are different there, perhaps there is a difference to here but ultimately the rules in place where you are take precedence and no footballer can say they didn’t realise how important and topical racism is right now.
As with any leeds player I’d hope we don’t fall foul of such rules but as with any player, Leeds or not, if we want to have zero tolerance that means the offender should not be playing.
Should there be an alternative to sacking/not playing, maybe the best people to come up with ideas are the victims in cases like this, what would the victims feel is the appropriate way to address the offending, rather than some other group of people deciding what’s right?
Have to say my take on the whole thing is to many snowflakes in the world so easily offended by everything and anything. Dont know what Kiko said and from what i make of it it was only charlton players word against him, cant believe people would use lip readers to try and work out what was said when you consider nationality of player himself those around him and then throw a yorkshire accent into the mix. If this was a court case wouldnt get through the door as no evidence but like i said world is full of snowflakes and because its leeds hes guilty already. Political correctness really has gone to far and paints innocent people as bigots or racists for totally innocuous things and the real racists get away with murder. Is there anyone more racist than trump or BJ and they are two world leaders.
No place for racism anywhere but some things need to be put into perspective and a heat of the moment spat in a heavily contested football match doesnt really show who a person is or reasons for using racist language or whether someone misheard what was actually said.
And no snowflake is not a racist term unless you remember love thy neighbour from early seventies lol
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 5 hours, 37 minutes ago
comment by Stevie "Oso Loco" Dee (U10061)
posted 8 minutes ago
Punishment handed out by the authorities always seems to be that much harsher when Leeds United is involved.
Not trying to detract from the seriousness of the alleged offence, racism has no place in football or society. However, we've been here before haven't we?
And, as the article says, the FA would be inclined to make an example if KC is found to be guilty. Shame they weren't inclined to step in with Derby County's players for setting poor examples, breaking the law and putting lives at risk.
Our season would be derailed considerably and raises questions over cover within the squad.
If found guilty isn't education the key to change? Sacking him does what exactly? I would suggest his wages for the period of suspension be donated to a cause that tackles issues such as this, that KC undergoes some serious education and community work.
From adversity comes strength. Let's hope whatever the outcome that this club pulls together and comes out stronger.
MOT
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You can’t equate the derby offences and racism.
The whole campaign against racism is branded as kick it out, you can’t be giving that message then not kicking the racist out (assuming of course he is proven as this which we have yet to see).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes you can. If you are suggesting that driving under the influence is a lesser offence than racism then I’m slightly shocked. Both are abhorrent and both need stamping out.
They could have killed someone....
Maybe just my outlook but drink driving is a far worse offence than racism, for the reasons above.
Obnoxious, dull & offensive as racism is, as a rule it’s generally words.
Totally agree with the kick it out ethos - if found guilty he has to go.
Racism got Stephen Lawrence killed it’s a conscious hateful act.
Drink driving is not a conscious hateful act.
You can’t compare the two acts.
You can compare relevant sentences but not the acts.
Not sure how anyone could defend an act of racism by saying but look that person there was drink driving...
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 1 hour, 18 minutes ago
Not sure how anyone could defend an act of racism by saying but look that person there was drink driving...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure it's wise to put words in my mouth....
I said both were equally unacceptable. You could, using the same approach, say that being racially abused is worse than be killed by a drink driver.
Nonsense argument. Both are considered to be criminal acts and there rests the argument.
FA as judge, jury and executioner? You lot are dreaming if you think Kiko will get a fair hearing.
But were we’re talking about Kiko and racism and you brought up completely unrelated Derby issue, clear case of whataboutery...
How utterly sickening to read about this.
For me, using racist slurs in a game at this (or any) level is beyond stupid. I mean, if you're being paid stupid money - did someone say 40k A WEEK for Casilla? - and you can't keep your trap shut then you're certainly too stupid and certainly not professional enough to wear the shirt, full stop. Surely Casilla has broken his own contract if he is guilty as charged? If it's true then he needs to be sacked and it needs to be high-profile - because we are Leeds. Yes, it will be interesting to see how Bielsa handles this.
And surely, we should have been bringing Meslier into the side? If he's nowhere near first team fitness, then we must look for an experienced loanee keeper now.
It's all the more sickening as I read on here how Casilla has been putting in some good performances recently. Impact on the club? More negativity. Damage to promotion challenge. Uncertainty and stress. Nothing good.
If it's true, he's a stupid khant - row him out!
And the Derby incident shows the world exactly how cynical a club's management can be. I can understand why they sacked Keogh - as club captain he should be leading by example on and off the pitch. I don't understand how the other two can be "rehabilitated" - and so quickly without concluding that the club are operating without principle, in which case Keogh's sacking is even more unjust. It seems like a really nasty thing to have done to him because he will not benefit from the specialist physio rehab available at the club. All in all, Derby have shown us how not to manage a crisis.
If Casilla is found guilty then he should be sacked, end of.
In the week that we see a village after 150 years change its name to avoid upsetting the PC brigade we need to be careful about being judge and jury over incidents like this, we probably will never know what was said but for me if Kiko does get banned if the team are happy for him to come back after the ban and dont think hes racist then that's good enough for me,
Somebody has already suggested that in his language what he's said could be a normal thing to say, I've said things here thinking I'm saying one thing only to find what I've said is insulting, mates have said a few times wtf!..
Did it a lot at first when my German was crap, still is crap but the mistakes ain't as bad as they were!..
He might have meant one thing but here its taken a different way to how he meant it!..
But then, its so easy these days for people to say he said, even when he's said nothing!..
Especially with the Racism card!..
If proven guilty than hang him, but hope he isn't guilty for something miss interpreted or he didn't say!..
People here have mentioned about him, MB and the Language barrier and how it makes things difficult, this might be a case off him saying one and meaning another!..
The only way to counter cultural biases is through education and pitting people to work together with those he has demeaned, to improve him and set him as an example of how people can change. See the positivity options for all, don't just react negatively to send the perpetrator down the road of having the chance to justify his actions grumpily.
Sacking him is not the right thing to do - suspending and fining and reducing pay for a long period, maybe even the rest of the season, and putting in place the way to re-educate and for him to pay something back, is the right thing to do
comment by Long Short Tall 666 (U19233)
posted 21 hours, 11 minutes ago
The only way to counter cultural biases is through education and pitting people to work together with those he has demeaned, to improve him and set him as an example of how people can change. See the positivity options for all, don't just react negatively to send the perpetrator down the road of having the chance to justify his actions grumpily.
Sacking him is not the right thing to do - suspending and fining and reducing pay for a long period, maybe even the rest of the season, and putting in place the way to re-educate and for him to pay something back, is the right thing to do
----------------------------------------------------------------------
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 1 day, 21 hours ago
Racism got Stephen Lawrence killed it’s a conscious hateful act.
Drink driving is not a conscious hateful act.
You can’t compare the two acts.
You can compare relevant sentences but not the acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just seen your reply Jonty.
I work in the NHS, I look at A&E stats everyday, along with mortality rates for those killed as a result of drink driving (amongst other checks). It's an horrific number each year (200+) and that doesn't include the 1000s of others suffering serious injury as a result.
In many cases drink driving is a conscious act. Maybe not hateful, but certainly selfish. 4rses who do it regularly will go out in the car and know they'll be driving home after a skinfull, they consciously know what they're doing before heading out (not all, but certainly a good number). May not be hateful per se, but the net result is often someone injured or killed, often not the driver but the innocents caught up in it.
I stand by my original thought, that's my personal viewpoint - I fully respect you see it differently and you may well be right. For the avoidance of any doubt, i'm not trying to advocate or lessen the effects of racism. I've no time or tolerance for anyone committing it.
Vof, clearly emotive subjects, good that we can have civilised discussion about it.
https://twitter.com/bigjimmy_v/status/1191391751250104323?s=21
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 12 minutes ago
https://twitter.com/bigjimmy_v/status/1191391751250104323?s=21
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The minimum ban for racist abuse is 6 games.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49178952
Sign in if you want to comment
Kiko
Page 2 of 2
posted on 2/11/19
If he's done it and is guilty (and they have allegedly used lip readers - remember Corbyn in Parliament with "stupid woman"?), the appropriate response is an absolute 100% proper personal apology to the player and to football in Britain, undertaking education, a long ban and fine by the FA, and a fine of the maximum amount allowed under the club's rules. I would also want to see him contributing to a charity against racism, and working with them for the next year
He could be sacked, but that does not turn around the culture within him.
posted on 2/11/19
comment by Klopptimus Prime - Die Unerträglichen (U1282)
posted 50 minutes ago
Depends on the evidence. If proven they should throw him under the bus, metaphorically speaking.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Or we could get the squad to wear silly T-shirts showing their support to a racist on our next televised game.
posted on 2/11/19
Sounds like he's in deep sh 1T. Agree with Jonty, if true, he should be appropriately punished.
posted on 2/11/19
Lots of good debate here, great to see serious subject discussed with different views and respect.
On the topic of people taking offence too easily we do live in a world where people want to take offence and be outraged at slightest thing.
However, unless you’re black im not you you can truly realise what it feels like to always feel you’re discriminated against in some way and how ingrained stereotypes can be. Seeing abuse at English clubs as we’ve seen against black players here in prem shows how mainstream it really is and it’s great that football says it’s going to kick it out.
Players are of a generation now where they really should know the boundaries, older folk you can understand being a product of their generation but footballers are young enough to know.
Kiki is from a different culture, perhaps societally things are different there, perhaps there is a difference to here but ultimately the rules in place where you are take precedence and no footballer can say they didn’t realise how important and topical racism is right now.
As with any leeds player I’d hope we don’t fall foul of such rules but as with any player, Leeds or not, if we want to have zero tolerance that means the offender should not be playing.
Should there be an alternative to sacking/not playing, maybe the best people to come up with ideas are the victims in cases like this, what would the victims feel is the appropriate way to address the offending, rather than some other group of people deciding what’s right?
posted on 2/11/19
Have to say my take on the whole thing is to many snowflakes in the world so easily offended by everything and anything. Dont know what Kiko said and from what i make of it it was only charlton players word against him, cant believe people would use lip readers to try and work out what was said when you consider nationality of player himself those around him and then throw a yorkshire accent into the mix. If this was a court case wouldnt get through the door as no evidence but like i said world is full of snowflakes and because its leeds hes guilty already. Political correctness really has gone to far and paints innocent people as bigots or racists for totally innocuous things and the real racists get away with murder. Is there anyone more racist than trump or BJ and they are two world leaders.
No place for racism anywhere but some things need to be put into perspective and a heat of the moment spat in a heavily contested football match doesnt really show who a person is or reasons for using racist language or whether someone misheard what was actually said.
And no snowflake is not a racist term unless you remember love thy neighbour from early seventies lol
posted on 2/11/19
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 5 hours, 37 minutes ago
comment by Stevie "Oso Loco" Dee (U10061)
posted 8 minutes ago
Punishment handed out by the authorities always seems to be that much harsher when Leeds United is involved.
Not trying to detract from the seriousness of the alleged offence, racism has no place in football or society. However, we've been here before haven't we?
And, as the article says, the FA would be inclined to make an example if KC is found to be guilty. Shame they weren't inclined to step in with Derby County's players for setting poor examples, breaking the law and putting lives at risk.
Our season would be derailed considerably and raises questions over cover within the squad.
If found guilty isn't education the key to change? Sacking him does what exactly? I would suggest his wages for the period of suspension be donated to a cause that tackles issues such as this, that KC undergoes some serious education and community work.
From adversity comes strength. Let's hope whatever the outcome that this club pulls together and comes out stronger.
MOT
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You can’t equate the derby offences and racism.
The whole campaign against racism is branded as kick it out, you can’t be giving that message then not kicking the racist out (assuming of course he is proven as this which we have yet to see).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes you can. If you are suggesting that driving under the influence is a lesser offence than racism then I’m slightly shocked. Both are abhorrent and both need stamping out.
They could have killed someone....
posted on 2/11/19
Maybe just my outlook but drink driving is a far worse offence than racism, for the reasons above.
Obnoxious, dull & offensive as racism is, as a rule it’s generally words.
Totally agree with the kick it out ethos - if found guilty he has to go.
posted on 2/11/19
Racism got Stephen Lawrence killed it’s a conscious hateful act.
Drink driving is not a conscious hateful act.
You can’t compare the two acts.
You can compare relevant sentences but not the acts.
posted on 2/11/19
Not sure how anyone could defend an act of racism by saying but look that person there was drink driving...
posted on 2/11/19
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 1 hour, 18 minutes ago
Not sure how anyone could defend an act of racism by saying but look that person there was drink driving...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure it's wise to put words in my mouth....
I said both were equally unacceptable. You could, using the same approach, say that being racially abused is worse than be killed by a drink driver.
Nonsense argument. Both are considered to be criminal acts and there rests the argument.
posted on 2/11/19
FA as judge, jury and executioner? You lot are dreaming if you think Kiko will get a fair hearing.
posted on 2/11/19
But were we’re talking about Kiko and racism and you brought up completely unrelated Derby issue, clear case of whataboutery...
posted on 3/11/19
How utterly sickening to read about this.
For me, using racist slurs in a game at this (or any) level is beyond stupid. I mean, if you're being paid stupid money - did someone say 40k A WEEK for Casilla? - and you can't keep your trap shut then you're certainly too stupid and certainly not professional enough to wear the shirt, full stop. Surely Casilla has broken his own contract if he is guilty as charged? If it's true then he needs to be sacked and it needs to be high-profile - because we are Leeds. Yes, it will be interesting to see how Bielsa handles this.
And surely, we should have been bringing Meslier into the side? If he's nowhere near first team fitness, then we must look for an experienced loanee keeper now.
It's all the more sickening as I read on here how Casilla has been putting in some good performances recently. Impact on the club? More negativity. Damage to promotion challenge. Uncertainty and stress. Nothing good.
If it's true, he's a stupid khant - row him out!
posted on 3/11/19
And the Derby incident shows the world exactly how cynical a club's management can be. I can understand why they sacked Keogh - as club captain he should be leading by example on and off the pitch. I don't understand how the other two can be "rehabilitated" - and so quickly without concluding that the club are operating without principle, in which case Keogh's sacking is even more unjust. It seems like a really nasty thing to have done to him because he will not benefit from the specialist physio rehab available at the club. All in all, Derby have shown us how not to manage a crisis.
If Casilla is found guilty then he should be sacked, end of.
posted on 3/11/19
In the week that we see a village after 150 years change its name to avoid upsetting the PC brigade we need to be careful about being judge and jury over incidents like this, we probably will never know what was said but for me if Kiko does get banned if the team are happy for him to come back after the ban and dont think hes racist then that's good enough for me,
posted on 3/11/19
Somebody has already suggested that in his language what he's said could be a normal thing to say, I've said things here thinking I'm saying one thing only to find what I've said is insulting, mates have said a few times wtf!..
Did it a lot at first when my German was crap, still is crap but the mistakes ain't as bad as they were!..
He might have meant one thing but here its taken a different way to how he meant it!..
But then, its so easy these days for people to say he said, even when he's said nothing!..
Especially with the Racism card!..
If proven guilty than hang him, but hope he isn't guilty for something miss interpreted or he didn't say!..
People here have mentioned about him, MB and the Language barrier and how it makes things difficult, this might be a case off him saying one and meaning another!..
posted on 3/11/19
The only way to counter cultural biases is through education and pitting people to work together with those he has demeaned, to improve him and set him as an example of how people can change. See the positivity options for all, don't just react negatively to send the perpetrator down the road of having the chance to justify his actions grumpily.
Sacking him is not the right thing to do - suspending and fining and reducing pay for a long period, maybe even the rest of the season, and putting in place the way to re-educate and for him to pay something back, is the right thing to do
posted on 4/11/19
comment by Long Short Tall 666 (U19233)
posted 21 hours, 11 minutes ago
The only way to counter cultural biases is through education and pitting people to work together with those he has demeaned, to improve him and set him as an example of how people can change. See the positivity options for all, don't just react negatively to send the perpetrator down the road of having the chance to justify his actions grumpily.
Sacking him is not the right thing to do - suspending and fining and reducing pay for a long period, maybe even the rest of the season, and putting in place the way to re-educate and for him to pay something back, is the right thing to do
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 4/11/19
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 1 day, 21 hours ago
Racism got Stephen Lawrence killed it’s a conscious hateful act.
Drink driving is not a conscious hateful act.
You can’t compare the two acts.
You can compare relevant sentences but not the acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just seen your reply Jonty.
I work in the NHS, I look at A&E stats everyday, along with mortality rates for those killed as a result of drink driving (amongst other checks). It's an horrific number each year (200+) and that doesn't include the 1000s of others suffering serious injury as a result.
In many cases drink driving is a conscious act. Maybe not hateful, but certainly selfish. 4rses who do it regularly will go out in the car and know they'll be driving home after a skinfull, they consciously know what they're doing before heading out (not all, but certainly a good number). May not be hateful per se, but the net result is often someone injured or killed, often not the driver but the innocents caught up in it.
I stand by my original thought, that's my personal viewpoint - I fully respect you see it differently and you may well be right. For the avoidance of any doubt, i'm not trying to advocate or lessen the effects of racism. I've no time or tolerance for anyone committing it.
posted on 4/11/19
Vof, clearly emotive subjects, good that we can have civilised discussion about it.
posted on 4/11/19
Absolutely ..... 👍👍
posted on 5/11/19
https://twitter.com/bigjimmy_v/status/1191391751250104323?s=21
posted on 5/11/19
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 12 minutes ago
https://twitter.com/bigjimmy_v/status/1191391751250104323?s=21
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The minimum ban for racist abuse is 6 games.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49178952
Page 2 of 2