Some of you are going way over the top. Talking about lynching and inferring that people who voted Brexit are racists is nearly as bad as what Ramage said. FFs he made a slip of the tongue like many of us do.
What was it that Dianne Abbott said about black mothers? She is still an MP and then there's Boris!
comment by Spart-Derby really are the best says red dog. (U4603)
posted 3 hours, 21 minutes ago
comment by Scouse (U9675)
posted 10 hours, 52 minutes ago
comment by Spart-Derby really are the best says red dog. (U4603)
posted 1 hour, 36 minutes ago
Needs pulling down a peg or two, or lynching as it was known in Mississippi.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Feck all to do with lynching Spart, you do talk some 5hite at times.
------------------------------------------------
Do you make these comments because you lack imagination? Have you read what Lowe said about them, and he was thinking along the same lines. I know English isn't your strong point and you find metaphor difficult. I am not saying that Ramage wants to lynch black people but the sort of language Ramage used was reminiscent of the language used by racists in the deep south of the USA, and the way they pulled black people down a peg or two was by lynching them to keep the others in their place.
In the 1950s, the period which Trump thought was when the US was "great", a black man could be lynched for looking at a white woman. It was the "way they acted" and "their body language and their stance" which would mark them out as needing to be brought down a peg or two.
Now I suggest you go and read a bit of history and see what I mean.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The term "pulling down a peg or two" has nothing to do with lynching, which is what you were implying.
You obviously don't know that in the deep south of the USA and in apartheid South Africa pulling down a peg or two when referring to black people meant exactly that. Any black people who would not give way to white people, would look white people in the eye or even worse look at white women were considered "uppity". i.e. acting above their rightful position so risked death. Lowe would have understood that from the language used. You having white privilege obviously have no conception of how offensive that language was.
Spart you remember when we first went to games many years ago, young lads used to come into teams and earn more money than they ever imagined. Often it went to their heads and some went off the rails drinking, wenching and gambling. I think this is what Ramage was trying to say about Bogle. While we were stuck in the road where we park for 40 minutes,Steam> I heard Ramage say that Bogle needed to get his head in order, he didn't say they would have to widen the doors so his head would fit, but that was the drift. Then in a podcast, whatever that is, he mentioned the bacl word, which was a very big mistake.
He has apologised but I don't think it will be enough. I bet Derby County are pleased to see the end of him, because he said it like it was. I got to like him as I got used to the way he spoke, he was passionate about Derby and I think he was cross that we lost to Bristol and were poor against Huddersfield.
He made a mistake, it's not like he dressed in a white sheet and got on a white sheeted horse and rode through Derby is it?
comment by VC10Ram (U18980)
posted 2 minutes ago
Spart you remember when we first went to games many years ago, young lads used to come into teams and earn more money than they ever imagined. Often it went to their heads and some went off the rails drinking, wenching and gambling. I think this is what Ramage was trying to say about Bogle. While we were stuck in the road where we park for 40 minutes,Steam> I heard Ramage say that Bogle needed to get his head in order, he didn't say they would have to widen the doors so his head would fit, but that was the drift. Then in a podcast, whatever that is, he mentioned the bacl word, which was a very big mistake.
He has apologised but I don't think it will be enough. I bet Derby County are pleased to see the end of him, because he said it like it was. I got to like him as I got used to the way he spoke, he was passionate about Derby and I think he was cross that we lost to Bristol and were poor against Huddersfield.
He made a mistake, it's not like he dressed in a white sheet and got on a white sheeted horse and rode through Derby is it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why do some posters feel the need to lessen the impact and mistake by saying " well, at least he didn't .............................." - as if this makes it less of an offensive thing to say.
It's like a man beating a woman, then saying " well at least he didn't kill her" - as if that gives it some kind of legitimacy.
You are right, I got carried away while I was telling others not to. Sorry.
View is bang on.
Just because it isn't perceived as racist is one of the biggest problems.
VC10, I remember Alan Buckley when he played for Nottingham Forest going in our local pubs and flaunting his wealth but no one mentioned the colour of his skin. Ramage specifically mentioned young black players. He didn't need to, could have just said some young players. Then he made it worse with his statement about taking them down a peg or two with all its connotations with colonialism and slavery. Small wonder that Lowe was offended.
Spart.
What I don't agree with is you automatically connecting the term "lynching" with Ramage saying "pulling down a peg or two".
if the term "pulling down a peg or two" was directly connected to lynching someone, then yes, but it isn't.
If Ramage had said the young lads need pulling down a peg or two there would have been nothing said as that term is NOT racist.
Give your head a wobble now and again.
comment by Scouse (U9675)
posted 13 minutes ago
Spart.
What I don't agree with is you automatically connecting the term "lynching" with Ramage saying "pulling down a peg or two".
if the term "pulling down a peg or two" was directly connected to lynching someone, then yes, but it isn't.
-----------------------------------------------
You wouldn't think so but then you don't share the same history as black people. It is not about me automatically connecting that phrase but that black people generally would do.
It was the same when Sarah Palin used the term blood libel when on about connecting her campaign to the shooting of Democrat politician. Blood libel was not offensive to her but the Jewish community in the US were horrified that someone used it.
The term regarding pegs clearly relates to meaning to humble someone who appears arrogant. Possible origins:
The British navy frequently used this expression in the 18th century. In those days, the importance of a ship was determined by how high its colors or flags were flying. These flags or colors were raised or lowered by a system of pegs: the higher the peg to which the flag was attached, the greater the ship's honor. So if the flag was tied to the highest peg, it implied that it was a very important ship. When the flag was placed on a lower peg, it implied that the honor given to it was not great
It was a naval term for boarding ships where every naval officer had a small flag denoting his rank so everyone could see the ranks on board and knew the chain of command. When a higher ranking officer would arrive he would move the lower ranking flags down a peg or two and install his own flag in the peg noting he was a higher rank.
An alternative explanation comes from as far back as the year 975. King Egbert was so annoyed about the amount of drunkenness in his Kingdom that he ordered pegs to be put into the sides of ale kegs and said that no man should be allowed to drink below the level of the previous peg at a single sitting. No sooner did this edict come into force than people began to drink from others' kegs in order to take them down a peg and thus reduce their drinking status
Fin
Thank you for putting up the correct historical meaning of pulling/putting down a peg.
So far as I can see, it has no racial inference at all per se and, had he not referred specifically to the young "black"players, it would have been perfectly acceptable.
However, using that word makes it discriminatory and is unacceptable.
Correct Peeder.
Including it in the narrative with the word "black" may not help the situation, but the phrase in itself is not racist in any way shape or form.
Owd Spart, stoking the fire again.
Seems some (at least one person) on here lack the capacity to empathise or understand that words can have different meanings in other cultures. For example George W Bush calling his war on terror a crusade. That was bound to get the middle eastern nations on your side George.
Why don't you write to Max Lowe then and explain to him that what Ramage said wasn't really offensive.
Spart, what Ramage said was offensive and racist, no argument.
What I'm attempting to point out (and failing in your case), is that if Ramage had said;
"the young lads need taking down a peg or two"
it would NOT have been anything of the sort, no story, move along.
Now, if Ramage had said;
"the young players need lynching"
then you may have had an argument? You seem to want to make out what he's said is somehow worse than it it already?
You’re right Scouse, but so is Spart. Once the phrase “all the young black lads” has been used, then suddenly “need to be taken down a peg or two” takes on a whole new meaning, whether intentionally or not. It resonates with the notion that it is possible for a racial group to get uppity and above their station. I very much doubt any of it was meant by Ramage but if I was black I expect I would be furious.
comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 13 minutes ago
You’re right Scouse, but so is Spart. Once the phrase “all the young black lads” has been used, then suddenly “need to be taken down a peg or two” takes on a whole new meaning, whether intentionally or not. It resonates with the notion that it is possible for a racial group to get uppity and above their station. I very much doubt any of it was meant by Ramage but if I was black I expect I would be furious.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Boom - Vidal covers it.
Spart / Scouse - end of the day you're both arguing on the same point that racist connotations WERE used in his conversation.
Spart, I've just Googled "pillock" and remarkably it suggested that the term could have been derived from 21st century culture, specifically to describe someone on a 'tinterweb forum, fan of Derby County, born in the 50's and now living in South Yorkshire?
Remakable.
Out of curiosity as I didn't hear the show (I've read what's been said) what were the comments of the other two presenters upon Forsyth making his faux pas?
FFS Desi, it wasn't Fozzie, it was Ramage.
Don't think the others said anything in mitigation or otherwise.
comment by Rameses, Kom op jij Rams (U7190)
posted 5 hours, 56 minutes ago
Eric Steele stood in Ramdini.
He did a good job too and some prefer him to Ramage.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes it was Eric and I thought he did a great job. for me at least the punditry was more interesting. Auntie! Get Eric Steele signed up. Please.
comment by Scouse (U9675)
posted 6 minutes ago
FFS Desi, it wasn't Fozzie, it was Ramage.
Don't think the others said anything in mitigation or otherwise.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sh *t the bed this morning Scouse? It was a typo as I was dealing with something associated with 'Forsyth'.
To take offence at the peg comment you need to be aware that it has a historical racist connotation.
I certainly didn’t. I’d be stunned if Craig Ramage did. Clearly Scouse has never heard of it used as a racist barb and Fin has dug up some history referring to it meaning something that has no racist roots (can I say that) at all.
Sign in if you want to comment
Cheerio Craig Ramage
Page 2 of 5
posted on 17/2/20
Some of you are going way over the top. Talking about lynching and inferring that people who voted Brexit are racists is nearly as bad as what Ramage said. FFs he made a slip of the tongue like many of us do.
What was it that Dianne Abbott said about black mothers? She is still an MP and then there's Boris!
posted on 17/2/20
comment by Spart-Derby really are the best says red dog. (U4603)
posted 3 hours, 21 minutes ago
comment by Scouse (U9675)
posted 10 hours, 52 minutes ago
comment by Spart-Derby really are the best says red dog. (U4603)
posted 1 hour, 36 minutes ago
Needs pulling down a peg or two, or lynching as it was known in Mississippi.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Feck all to do with lynching Spart, you do talk some 5hite at times.
------------------------------------------------
Do you make these comments because you lack imagination? Have you read what Lowe said about them, and he was thinking along the same lines. I know English isn't your strong point and you find metaphor difficult. I am not saying that Ramage wants to lynch black people but the sort of language Ramage used was reminiscent of the language used by racists in the deep south of the USA, and the way they pulled black people down a peg or two was by lynching them to keep the others in their place.
In the 1950s, the period which Trump thought was when the US was "great", a black man could be lynched for looking at a white woman. It was the "way they acted" and "their body language and their stance" which would mark them out as needing to be brought down a peg or two.
Now I suggest you go and read a bit of history and see what I mean.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The term "pulling down a peg or two" has nothing to do with lynching, which is what you were implying.
posted on 17/2/20
You obviously don't know that in the deep south of the USA and in apartheid South Africa pulling down a peg or two when referring to black people meant exactly that. Any black people who would not give way to white people, would look white people in the eye or even worse look at white women were considered "uppity". i.e. acting above their rightful position so risked death. Lowe would have understood that from the language used. You having white privilege obviously have no conception of how offensive that language was.
posted on 17/2/20
Spart you remember when we first went to games many years ago, young lads used to come into teams and earn more money than they ever imagined. Often it went to their heads and some went off the rails drinking, wenching and gambling. I think this is what Ramage was trying to say about Bogle. While we were stuck in the road where we park for 40 minutes,Steam> I heard Ramage say that Bogle needed to get his head in order, he didn't say they would have to widen the doors so his head would fit, but that was the drift. Then in a podcast, whatever that is, he mentioned the bacl word, which was a very big mistake.
He has apologised but I don't think it will be enough. I bet Derby County are pleased to see the end of him, because he said it like it was. I got to like him as I got used to the way he spoke, he was passionate about Derby and I think he was cross that we lost to Bristol and were poor against Huddersfield.
He made a mistake, it's not like he dressed in a white sheet and got on a white sheeted horse and rode through Derby is it?
posted on 17/2/20
comment by VC10Ram (U18980)
posted 2 minutes ago
Spart you remember when we first went to games many years ago, young lads used to come into teams and earn more money than they ever imagined. Often it went to their heads and some went off the rails drinking, wenching and gambling. I think this is what Ramage was trying to say about Bogle. While we were stuck in the road where we park for 40 minutes,Steam> I heard Ramage say that Bogle needed to get his head in order, he didn't say they would have to widen the doors so his head would fit, but that was the drift. Then in a podcast, whatever that is, he mentioned the bacl word, which was a very big mistake.
He has apologised but I don't think it will be enough. I bet Derby County are pleased to see the end of him, because he said it like it was. I got to like him as I got used to the way he spoke, he was passionate about Derby and I think he was cross that we lost to Bristol and were poor against Huddersfield.
He made a mistake, it's not like he dressed in a white sheet and got on a white sheeted horse and rode through Derby is it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why do some posters feel the need to lessen the impact and mistake by saying " well, at least he didn't .............................." - as if this makes it less of an offensive thing to say.
It's like a man beating a woman, then saying " well at least he didn't kill her" - as if that gives it some kind of legitimacy.
posted on 17/2/20
You are right, I got carried away while I was telling others not to. Sorry.
posted on 17/2/20
View is bang on.
Just because it isn't perceived as racist is one of the biggest problems.
posted on 17/2/20
VC10, I remember Alan Buckley when he played for Nottingham Forest going in our local pubs and flaunting his wealth but no one mentioned the colour of his skin. Ramage specifically mentioned young black players. He didn't need to, could have just said some young players. Then he made it worse with his statement about taking them down a peg or two with all its connotations with colonialism and slavery. Small wonder that Lowe was offended.
posted on 17/2/20
Spart.
What I don't agree with is you automatically connecting the term "lynching" with Ramage saying "pulling down a peg or two".
if the term "pulling down a peg or two" was directly connected to lynching someone, then yes, but it isn't.
posted on 17/2/20
If Ramage had said the young lads need pulling down a peg or two there would have been nothing said as that term is NOT racist.
Give your head a wobble now and again.
posted on 17/2/20
comment by Scouse (U9675)
posted 13 minutes ago
Spart.
What I don't agree with is you automatically connecting the term "lynching" with Ramage saying "pulling down a peg or two".
if the term "pulling down a peg or two" was directly connected to lynching someone, then yes, but it isn't.
-----------------------------------------------
You wouldn't think so but then you don't share the same history as black people. It is not about me automatically connecting that phrase but that black people generally would do.
It was the same when Sarah Palin used the term blood libel when on about connecting her campaign to the shooting of Democrat politician. Blood libel was not offensive to her but the Jewish community in the US were horrified that someone used it.
posted on 17/2/20
The term regarding pegs clearly relates to meaning to humble someone who appears arrogant. Possible origins:
The British navy frequently used this expression in the 18th century. In those days, the importance of a ship was determined by how high its colors or flags were flying. These flags or colors were raised or lowered by a system of pegs: the higher the peg to which the flag was attached, the greater the ship's honor. So if the flag was tied to the highest peg, it implied that it was a very important ship. When the flag was placed on a lower peg, it implied that the honor given to it was not great
It was a naval term for boarding ships where every naval officer had a small flag denoting his rank so everyone could see the ranks on board and knew the chain of command. When a higher ranking officer would arrive he would move the lower ranking flags down a peg or two and install his own flag in the peg noting he was a higher rank.
An alternative explanation comes from as far back as the year 975. King Egbert was so annoyed about the amount of drunkenness in his Kingdom that he ordered pegs to be put into the sides of ale kegs and said that no man should be allowed to drink below the level of the previous peg at a single sitting. No sooner did this edict come into force than people began to drink from others' kegs in order to take them down a peg and thus reduce their drinking status
posted on 17/2/20
Fin
Thank you for putting up the correct historical meaning of pulling/putting down a peg.
So far as I can see, it has no racial inference at all per se and, had he not referred specifically to the young "black"players, it would have been perfectly acceptable.
However, using that word makes it discriminatory and is unacceptable.
posted on 17/2/20
Correct Peeder.
Including it in the narrative with the word "black" may not help the situation, but the phrase in itself is not racist in any way shape or form.
Owd Spart, stoking the fire again.
posted on 17/2/20
Seems some (at least one person) on here lack the capacity to empathise or understand that words can have different meanings in other cultures. For example George W Bush calling his war on terror a crusade. That was bound to get the middle eastern nations on your side George.
Why don't you write to Max Lowe then and explain to him that what Ramage said wasn't really offensive.
posted on 17/2/20
Spart, what Ramage said was offensive and racist, no argument.
What I'm attempting to point out (and failing in your case), is that if Ramage had said;
"the young lads need taking down a peg or two"
it would NOT have been anything of the sort, no story, move along.
Now, if Ramage had said;
"the young players need lynching"
then you may have had an argument? You seem to want to make out what he's said is somehow worse than it it already?
posted on 17/2/20
You’re right Scouse, but so is Spart. Once the phrase “all the young black lads” has been used, then suddenly “need to be taken down a peg or two” takes on a whole new meaning, whether intentionally or not. It resonates with the notion that it is possible for a racial group to get uppity and above their station. I very much doubt any of it was meant by Ramage but if I was black I expect I would be furious.
posted on 17/2/20
comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 13 minutes ago
You’re right Scouse, but so is Spart. Once the phrase “all the young black lads” has been used, then suddenly “need to be taken down a peg or two” takes on a whole new meaning, whether intentionally or not. It resonates with the notion that it is possible for a racial group to get uppity and above their station. I very much doubt any of it was meant by Ramage but if I was black I expect I would be furious.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Boom - Vidal covers it.
Spart / Scouse - end of the day you're both arguing on the same point that racist connotations WERE used in his conversation.
posted on 17/2/20
Spart, I've just Googled "pillock" and remarkably it suggested that the term could have been derived from 21st century culture, specifically to describe someone on a 'tinterweb forum, fan of Derby County, born in the 50's and now living in South Yorkshire?
Remakable.
posted on 17/2/20
Out of curiosity as I didn't hear the show (I've read what's been said) what were the comments of the other two presenters upon Forsyth making his faux pas?
posted on 17/2/20
FFS Desi, it wasn't Fozzie, it was Ramage.
Don't think the others said anything in mitigation or otherwise.
posted on 17/2/20
comment by Rameses, Kom op jij Rams (U7190)
posted 5 hours, 56 minutes ago
Eric Steele stood in Ramdini.
He did a good job too and some prefer him to Ramage.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes it was Eric and I thought he did a great job. for me at least the punditry was more interesting. Auntie! Get Eric Steele signed up. Please.
posted on 17/2/20
comment by Scouse (U9675)
posted 6 minutes ago
FFS Desi, it wasn't Fozzie, it was Ramage.
Don't think the others said anything in mitigation or otherwise.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sh *t the bed this morning Scouse? It was a typo as I was dealing with something associated with 'Forsyth'.
posted on 17/2/20
To take offence at the peg comment you need to be aware that it has a historical racist connotation.
I certainly didn’t. I’d be stunned if Craig Ramage did. Clearly Scouse has never heard of it used as a racist barb and Fin has dug up some history referring to it meaning something that has no racist roots (can I say that) at all.
posted on 17/2/20
Well, no moan-in tonight
Page 2 of 5