Well, reading his statement on YEP suggests to me that what was actually said during the Leko incident has been misconstrued or narrowly interpreted; nobody protests like a wrongly convicted man and here he is categorically stating the guilty verdict does not reflect the reality of what happened.
On the other hand, 8 games and 60k fine is pretty hefty, bearing in mind the club's position in the Championship and the stage we're at in the season. The players get paid so well that I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to be professionally aware at all times that they are representing the club, particularly when actually playing.
I was about to write that professional football players need to be "whiter than white" these days, when I realised that this is exactly how easy it can be to stray over the line, and is perhaps what has happened in Casilla's case. Does this phrase have racist connotations? To me, not at all, but somebody else, maybe...
Anyway, good luck Illan Meslier tomorrow. Probably just as well that Casilla has a break, given his recent calamities; this case must have been doing his head in. Bielsa has been incredibly loyal to him.
comment by Afridi14... ( ليدز_يونايتد )You gotta love it!! (U2805)
posted 3 minutes ago
There is no place for racism in football or in any walk of life. Can only comment further when FA publish written statement on reasons why. If racist then 8 games is not enough for me.
But to tarnish someone’s name and reputation, and to jeopardise their career, on the balance of probability, is just wrong.
It’s about time the FA had a serious overhaul of disciplinary procedures.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This, this and this.
Convicting someone of such a heinous allegation "on the balance of probability" is simply disgusting.
comment by Highlandwhite... Come Onnnnnnnn Leeeeeeeeeeds!!! (U2867)
posted 17 seconds ago
AND a £60,000 Fine, Didn't FIFA fine one of their member clubs just £20,000 for serious Fan trouble involving true racism
The EA and EFL certainly know how to get money out of Leeds
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Serious fan trouble. Are we the only fans that have given McClean some stick. He got the same at Huddersfield week after and nothing. He turned his back on Remembrance Day and stood in corner screaming at fans.
And I agree fully with Afridi, even if that seems contradictory...
comment by Afridi14... ( ليدز_يونايتد )You gotta love it!! (U2805)
posted 3 minutes ago
There is no place for racism in football or in any walk of life. Can only comment further when FA publish written statement on reasons why. If racist then 8 games is not enough for me.
But to tarnish someone’s name and reputation, and to jeopardise their career, on the balance of probability, is just wrong.
It’s about time the FA had a serious overhaul of disciplinary procedures.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a difficult one. Proving beyond reasonable doubt will always be incredibly difficult. And you don’t want players to think they can get away with it and more importantly you don’t want players to be racially abused and feel there is no point reporting it.
I do not think that Leko has reported this maliciously. It wouldn’t make sense to. So he must have felt like he was abused.
The difficulty is that the FA now don’t have much choice other than to find Casilla guilty.
It sounds to me like something was said. It must have included a word that could be deemed rascist eg. Black. Casilla is saying he didn’t say it like that which is completely plausible.
I think that’s very a difficult position for any governing body.
If the attitude is they risk sacrificing fairness to stamp out rascism as it’s the lesser evil of the 2 would that be reasonable?
Better to find a guilty man innocent than to find an innocent man guilty?
Isn't it?
This is why the bar is so high in the true legal sense.
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Afridi14... ( ليدز_يونايتد )You gotta love it!! (U2805)
posted 3 minutes ago
There is no place for racism in football or in any walk of life. Can only comment further when FA publish written statement on reasons why. If racist then 8 games is not enough for me.
But to tarnish someone’s name and reputation, and to jeopardise their career, on the balance of probability, is just wrong.
It’s about time the FA had a serious overhaul of disciplinary procedures.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a difficult one. Proving beyond reasonable doubt will always be incredibly difficult. And you don’t want players to think they can get away with it and more importantly you don’t want players to be racially abused and feel there is no point reporting it.
I do not think that Leko has reported this maliciously. It wouldn’t make sense to. So he must have felt like he was abused.
The difficulty is that the FA now don’t have much choice other than to find Casilla guilty.
It sounds to me like something was said. It must have included a word that could be deemed rascist eg. Black. Casilla is saying he didn’t say it like that which is completely plausible.
I think that’s very a difficult position for any governing body.
If the attitude is they risk sacrificing fairness to stamp out rascism as it’s the lesser evil of the 2 would that be reasonable?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What if in a situation a player mis heard an opposition player and believed he made a racist comment, when in actual fact he didnt. The "victim" isnt necessarily lying but the accused didnt actually say anything racist. Do you then think it's fair that the FA ban the accused because they dont have much choice?
I'm not saying this is what I believe happened with Kiko, this is simply a hypothetical situation.
comment by Jaz63 (U8369)
posted 7 minutes ago
And I agree fully with Afridi, even if that seems contradictory...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it makes sense to have contradictory opinions on this. It’s impossible to square and have a perfect solution to resolve these allegations
Hampshire White - you post above reminds me of the a Rudiger allegation. He’s convinced he heard sections chanting racist abuse at him. No evidence found though. He’s not a happy bunny
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Afridi14... ( ليدز_يونايتد )You gotta love it!! (U2805)
posted 3 minutes ago
There is no place for racism in football or in any walk of life. Can only comment further when FA publish written statement on reasons why. If racist then 8 games is not enough for me.
But to tarnish someone’s name and reputation, and to jeopardise their career, on the balance of probability, is just wrong.
It’s about time the FA had a serious overhaul of disciplinary procedures.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a difficult one. Proving beyond reasonable doubt will always be incredibly difficult. And you don’t want players to think they can get away with it and more importantly you don’t want players to be racially abused and feel there is no point reporting it.
I do not think that Leko has reported this maliciously. It wouldn’t make sense to. So he must have felt like he was abused.
The difficulty is that the FA now don’t have much choice other than to find Casilla guilty.
It sounds to me like something was said. It must have included a word that could be deemed rascist eg. Black. Casilla is saying he didn’t say it like that which is completely plausible.
I think that’s very a difficult position for any governing body.
If the attitude is they risk sacrificing fairness to stamp out rascism as it’s the lesser evil of the 2 would that be reasonable?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What if in a situation a player mis heard an opposition player and believed he made a racist comment, when in actual fact he didnt. The "victim" isnt necessarily lying but the accused didnt actually say anything racist. Do you then think it's fair that the FA ban the accused because they dont have much choice?
I'm not saying this is what I believe happened with Kiko, this is simply a hypothetical situation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No it’s not fair. Definitely not fair.
I also think that the situation you describe is a summary of this case.
The thing is no one can prove whether what was said was rascist or not. And 99% of the time this will be the case.
So what do you do?
Do you trust the accuser?
Do you trust the accused who will always defend themselves?
You would have to be consistent you would think. Unless you decide on the toss of a coin.
So you do accept it’s not fair on the accused or accept it’s not fair on the accuser. It’s always going to be unfair one way or the other.
And I get the feeling they have decided it’s safer to be unfair on the accused and justify it by saying we need to stamp racism out of football.
It is complicated.
I’m talking about every case too, not just this one in isolation
Afridi - So based on the balance of probability (the fact that there was no corroborating evidence either from his team mates or people in the ground) then the right decision was made.
I am in no way defending racism btw. If Kiko has made any comments of a racist nature towards anyone then he deserves action taken against him. However, I find it scary that people believe convicting someone, based on the balance of probability, is okay.
Personally, I have been on the receiving end of false allegations being made against me. I was suspended from work, subject to a police investigation, people (not my close friends or family) thought less of me, I could have been branded something I'm not. I was scared s*itless. I couldn't sleep. It effected my relationship. I even had to go to the doctors and was prescribed sleeping pills and anti depressants. However, the truth eventually came out and I was cleared of everything. It was a massive weight off but it still has lasting effects (trust etc). I have no idea to this day why the person accused me of what they did, or if anything ever happened to them as I ended up being moved back up to north Yorkshire to work (I was working in Aldershot at the time hence the username). Now based on "balance of probability" I could have lost everything and faced prison time cos why would the other person go through all that effort to lie???
I rarely post on here but I thought I'd share this because this subject hits home with me. Sorry for the essay.
Now I'm not saying Leko's allegations were false - I'm just saying we can't just say someone "probably" did something because why would the other person lie.
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Afridi14... ( ليدز_يونايتد )You gotta love it!! (U2805)
posted 3 minutes ago
There is no place for racism in football or in any walk of life. Can only comment further when FA publish written statement on reasons why. If racist then 8 games is not enough for me.
But to tarnish someone’s name and reputation, and to jeopardise their career, on the balance of probability, is just wrong.
It’s about time the FA had a serious overhaul of disciplinary procedures.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a difficult one. Proving beyond reasonable doubt will always be incredibly difficult. And you don’t want players to think they can get away with it and more importantly you don’t want players to be racially abused and feel there is no point reporting it.
I do not think that Leko has reported this maliciously. It wouldn’t make sense to. So he must have felt like he was abused.
The difficulty is that the FA now don’t have much choice other than to find Casilla guilty.
It sounds to me like something was said. It must have included a word that could be deemed rascist eg. Black. Casilla is saying he didn’t say it like that which is completely plausible.
I think that’s very a difficult position for any governing body.
If the attitude is they risk sacrificing fairness to stamp out rascism as it’s the lesser evil of the 2 would that be reasonable?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What if in a situation a player mis heard an opposition player and believed he made a racist comment, when in actual fact he didnt. The "victim" isnt necessarily lying but the accused didnt actually say anything racist. Do you then think it's fair that the FA ban the accused because they dont have much choice?
I'm not saying this is what I believe happened with Kiko, this is simply a hypothetical situation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No it’s not fair. Definitely not fair.
I also think that the situation you describe is a summary of this case.
The thing is no one can prove whether what was said was rascist or not. And 99% of the time this will be the case.
So what do you do?
Do you trust the accuser?
Do you trust the accused who will always defend themselves?
You would have to be consistent you would think. Unless you decide on the toss of a coin.
So you do accept it’s not fair on the accused or accept it’s not fair on the accuser. It’s always going to be unfair one way or the other.
And I get the feeling they have decided it’s safer to be unfair on the accused and justify it by saying we need to stamp racism out of football.
It is complicated.
I’m talking about every case too, not just this one in isolation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You convict if there is evidence proving his guilt beyond all reasonable doubt. Witnesses, cameras etc. If its not there then its unfortunate (if racist comments were actually made) but that's the way the system works.
There is a question above of what is Leko's motivation for reporting this incident - so the reverse is what is Kiko's motivation for making a racist comment?
If Kiko actually said something to Leko (motivation being to put him off his game), then it could very well be construed as racist but if he was speaking to one of his own players (i.e. assuming he did say mark the black player), then where is the racist abuse?
One expects that the independent commission would have taken that into consideration. Let us see what their rationale was for coming to that decision.
Hampshire, sorry to hear what you went through.
And very relevant to this.
I’m not able to say what I think the right Policy is for the FA to take in these types of cases. Because I don’t know.
I can see the reasons for using both balance of probability and for using beyond reasonable doubt.
I can see huge negatives that are linked to using either option too. You have quite clearly given an example of why balance of probability shouldn’t be used.
You would also agree that the problem with using beyond reasonable doubt means most rascists will get away with it. This also is a problem.
I dont think there is a good solution.
comment by middlesexwhite (U4520)
posted 1 minute ago
There is a question above of what is Leko's motivation for reporting this incident - so the reverse is what is Kiko's motivation for making a racist comment?
If Kiko actually said something to Leko (motivation being to put him off his game), then it could very well be construed as racist but if he was speaking to one of his own players (i.e. assuming he did say mark the black player), then where is the racist abuse?
One expects that the independent commission would have taken that into consideration. Let us see what their rationale was for coming to that decision.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Casilla should and hopefully had no motivation to say anything racist to Leko.
The problem is that there will be incidents where the motivation was simply that the player is a rascist and doesn’t lack black people.
I’m not arguing that the FA are doing things right by the way. Im just considering both sides.
"made reference to race and/or colour and/or ethnic origin", constituting an aggravated breach
Maybe he shoulda said "mark the IC3 unit"
you can't say "mark the big guy" cos big might be taken as derogatory and guy assumes someone's gender
The BBC called him "the Spaniard": what if he was a Catalan or Galician or Basque and really really really felt abused by being called a Spaniard?
Using a descriptor is not racist. Using a term in a derogatory manner is racist, or using the descriptor to indicate malign intent is bigoted and possibly racist.
Will be interesting to see what the actual report does say. Maybe all the media comments so far have been wrong and he is guilty of actual racism.
Quick question. Can anyone tell me that Kiko definitely didn’t say racist abuse to Leko?
No of course not.
So what happens if he did do it? Is the FA still in the wrong?
Saying 'mark the black guy' is an observation, not racial abuse.
Shaun. That quote has not come from anyone relevant to the situation. It was a speculative comment made by a fan.
We as fans have zero evidence at the moment to suggest one way or the other.
Hopefully we will get some when findings are released.
It’s a disgrace that this was not done at once
Quick question. Can anyone tell me that Kiko definitely didn’t say racist abuse to Leko?
No of course not.
So what happens if he did do it? Is the FA still in the wrong?
Even the FA can't "definitely" say he did or didn't , but they labelled him racist anyway .
Sorry but making a decision on probability is just wrong.
It is worth noting that not only have they found him guilty, they have also found additional aggravating circumstances - hence the 8 game ban rather than the 6 under the FA rules.
So the written decision next week will be an interesting read.
As regards probability versus beyond reasonable doubt, only criminal cases have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.All civil cases are decided on the balance of probability - this fits into that category. If there is evidence which allowed this to be proved at the higher bar (beyond reasonable doubt), then Kiko could potentially face criminal sanction as well.
Yes balance of probability is not a ridiculous concept.
I do wonder what the opinions would be if Lucas Radebe had accused Roy Keane of calling him a black ****. That Nigel Martyn said he heard it. And the FA decided to take no action due to lack of evidence.
Hull City have tweeted "timely reminder that tomorrow's game is dedicated to Kick It Out".
Absolutely classless. Truly is.
The Mirror is now headlining with this.
Banned Leeds goalkeeper Kiko Casilla allegedly called Jonathan Leko "n*****"
So no news from the FA regarding the comment, but the Mirror sensationalises the ban by alleging he used the "N" word.
All the numpties will now believe it's true.
comment by AlgarveWhite (U5640)
posted 8 minutes ago
The Mirror is now headlining with this.
Banned Leeds goalkeeper Kiko Casilla allegedly called Jonathan Leko "n*****"
So no news from the FA regarding the comment, but the Mirror sensationalises the ban by alleging he used the "N" word.
All the numpties will now believe it's true.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Numpties?" Why bring Moan U fans into this one?
Sign in if you want to comment
Casilla gets 8 game ban
Page 2 of 3
posted on 28/2/20
Well, reading his statement on YEP suggests to me that what was actually said during the Leko incident has been misconstrued or narrowly interpreted; nobody protests like a wrongly convicted man and here he is categorically stating the guilty verdict does not reflect the reality of what happened.
On the other hand, 8 games and 60k fine is pretty hefty, bearing in mind the club's position in the Championship and the stage we're at in the season. The players get paid so well that I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to be professionally aware at all times that they are representing the club, particularly when actually playing.
I was about to write that professional football players need to be "whiter than white" these days, when I realised that this is exactly how easy it can be to stray over the line, and is perhaps what has happened in Casilla's case. Does this phrase have racist connotations? To me, not at all, but somebody else, maybe...
Anyway, good luck Illan Meslier tomorrow. Probably just as well that Casilla has a break, given his recent calamities; this case must have been doing his head in. Bielsa has been incredibly loyal to him.
posted on 28/2/20
comment by Afridi14... ( ليدز_يونايتد )You gotta love it!! (U2805)
posted 3 minutes ago
There is no place for racism in football or in any walk of life. Can only comment further when FA publish written statement on reasons why. If racist then 8 games is not enough for me.
But to tarnish someone’s name and reputation, and to jeopardise their career, on the balance of probability, is just wrong.
It’s about time the FA had a serious overhaul of disciplinary procedures.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This, this and this.
Convicting someone of such a heinous allegation "on the balance of probability" is simply disgusting.
posted on 28/2/20
comment by Highlandwhite... Come Onnnnnnnn Leeeeeeeeeeds!!! (U2867)
posted 17 seconds ago
AND a £60,000 Fine, Didn't FIFA fine one of their member clubs just £20,000 for serious Fan trouble involving true racism
The EA and EFL certainly know how to get money out of Leeds
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Serious fan trouble. Are we the only fans that have given McClean some stick. He got the same at Huddersfield week after and nothing. He turned his back on Remembrance Day and stood in corner screaming at fans.
posted on 28/2/20
And I agree fully with Afridi, even if that seems contradictory...
posted on 28/2/20
comment by Afridi14... ( ليدز_يونايتد )You gotta love it!! (U2805)
posted 3 minutes ago
There is no place for racism in football or in any walk of life. Can only comment further when FA publish written statement on reasons why. If racist then 8 games is not enough for me.
But to tarnish someone’s name and reputation, and to jeopardise their career, on the balance of probability, is just wrong.
It’s about time the FA had a serious overhaul of disciplinary procedures.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a difficult one. Proving beyond reasonable doubt will always be incredibly difficult. And you don’t want players to think they can get away with it and more importantly you don’t want players to be racially abused and feel there is no point reporting it.
I do not think that Leko has reported this maliciously. It wouldn’t make sense to. So he must have felt like he was abused.
The difficulty is that the FA now don’t have much choice other than to find Casilla guilty.
It sounds to me like something was said. It must have included a word that could be deemed rascist eg. Black. Casilla is saying he didn’t say it like that which is completely plausible.
I think that’s very a difficult position for any governing body.
If the attitude is they risk sacrificing fairness to stamp out rascism as it’s the lesser evil of the 2 would that be reasonable?
posted on 28/2/20
Better to find a guilty man innocent than to find an innocent man guilty?
Isn't it?
This is why the bar is so high in the true legal sense.
posted on 28/2/20
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Afridi14... ( ليدز_يونايتد )You gotta love it!! (U2805)
posted 3 minutes ago
There is no place for racism in football or in any walk of life. Can only comment further when FA publish written statement on reasons why. If racist then 8 games is not enough for me.
But to tarnish someone’s name and reputation, and to jeopardise their career, on the balance of probability, is just wrong.
It’s about time the FA had a serious overhaul of disciplinary procedures.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a difficult one. Proving beyond reasonable doubt will always be incredibly difficult. And you don’t want players to think they can get away with it and more importantly you don’t want players to be racially abused and feel there is no point reporting it.
I do not think that Leko has reported this maliciously. It wouldn’t make sense to. So he must have felt like he was abused.
The difficulty is that the FA now don’t have much choice other than to find Casilla guilty.
It sounds to me like something was said. It must have included a word that could be deemed rascist eg. Black. Casilla is saying he didn’t say it like that which is completely plausible.
I think that’s very a difficult position for any governing body.
If the attitude is they risk sacrificing fairness to stamp out rascism as it’s the lesser evil of the 2 would that be reasonable?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What if in a situation a player mis heard an opposition player and believed he made a racist comment, when in actual fact he didnt. The "victim" isnt necessarily lying but the accused didnt actually say anything racist. Do you then think it's fair that the FA ban the accused because they dont have much choice?
I'm not saying this is what I believe happened with Kiko, this is simply a hypothetical situation.
posted on 28/2/20
comment by Jaz63 (U8369)
posted 7 minutes ago
And I agree fully with Afridi, even if that seems contradictory...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it makes sense to have contradictory opinions on this. It’s impossible to square and have a perfect solution to resolve these allegations
posted on 28/2/20
Hampshire White - you post above reminds me of the a Rudiger allegation. He’s convinced he heard sections chanting racist abuse at him. No evidence found though. He’s not a happy bunny
posted on 28/2/20
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Afridi14... ( ليدز_يونايتد )You gotta love it!! (U2805)
posted 3 minutes ago
There is no place for racism in football or in any walk of life. Can only comment further when FA publish written statement on reasons why. If racist then 8 games is not enough for me.
But to tarnish someone’s name and reputation, and to jeopardise their career, on the balance of probability, is just wrong.
It’s about time the FA had a serious overhaul of disciplinary procedures.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a difficult one. Proving beyond reasonable doubt will always be incredibly difficult. And you don’t want players to think they can get away with it and more importantly you don’t want players to be racially abused and feel there is no point reporting it.
I do not think that Leko has reported this maliciously. It wouldn’t make sense to. So he must have felt like he was abused.
The difficulty is that the FA now don’t have much choice other than to find Casilla guilty.
It sounds to me like something was said. It must have included a word that could be deemed rascist eg. Black. Casilla is saying he didn’t say it like that which is completely plausible.
I think that’s very a difficult position for any governing body.
If the attitude is they risk sacrificing fairness to stamp out rascism as it’s the lesser evil of the 2 would that be reasonable?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What if in a situation a player mis heard an opposition player and believed he made a racist comment, when in actual fact he didnt. The "victim" isnt necessarily lying but the accused didnt actually say anything racist. Do you then think it's fair that the FA ban the accused because they dont have much choice?
I'm not saying this is what I believe happened with Kiko, this is simply a hypothetical situation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No it’s not fair. Definitely not fair.
I also think that the situation you describe is a summary of this case.
The thing is no one can prove whether what was said was rascist or not. And 99% of the time this will be the case.
So what do you do?
Do you trust the accuser?
Do you trust the accused who will always defend themselves?
You would have to be consistent you would think. Unless you decide on the toss of a coin.
So you do accept it’s not fair on the accused or accept it’s not fair on the accuser. It’s always going to be unfair one way or the other.
And I get the feeling they have decided it’s safer to be unfair on the accused and justify it by saying we need to stamp racism out of football.
It is complicated.
I’m talking about every case too, not just this one in isolation
posted on 28/2/20
Afridi - So based on the balance of probability (the fact that there was no corroborating evidence either from his team mates or people in the ground) then the right decision was made.
I am in no way defending racism btw. If Kiko has made any comments of a racist nature towards anyone then he deserves action taken against him. However, I find it scary that people believe convicting someone, based on the balance of probability, is okay.
Personally, I have been on the receiving end of false allegations being made against me. I was suspended from work, subject to a police investigation, people (not my close friends or family) thought less of me, I could have been branded something I'm not. I was scared s*itless. I couldn't sleep. It effected my relationship. I even had to go to the doctors and was prescribed sleeping pills and anti depressants. However, the truth eventually came out and I was cleared of everything. It was a massive weight off but it still has lasting effects (trust etc). I have no idea to this day why the person accused me of what they did, or if anything ever happened to them as I ended up being moved back up to north Yorkshire to work (I was working in Aldershot at the time hence the username). Now based on "balance of probability" I could have lost everything and faced prison time cos why would the other person go through all that effort to lie???
I rarely post on here but I thought I'd share this because this subject hits home with me. Sorry for the essay.
Now I'm not saying Leko's allegations were false - I'm just saying we can't just say someone "probably" did something because why would the other person lie.
posted on 28/2/20
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by HampshireWhite (U9986)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by HaveFaithInLeeds (U8688)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Afridi14... ( ليدز_يونايتد )You gotta love it!! (U2805)
posted 3 minutes ago
There is no place for racism in football or in any walk of life. Can only comment further when FA publish written statement on reasons why. If racist then 8 games is not enough for me.
But to tarnish someone’s name and reputation, and to jeopardise their career, on the balance of probability, is just wrong.
It’s about time the FA had a serious overhaul of disciplinary procedures.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a difficult one. Proving beyond reasonable doubt will always be incredibly difficult. And you don’t want players to think they can get away with it and more importantly you don’t want players to be racially abused and feel there is no point reporting it.
I do not think that Leko has reported this maliciously. It wouldn’t make sense to. So he must have felt like he was abused.
The difficulty is that the FA now don’t have much choice other than to find Casilla guilty.
It sounds to me like something was said. It must have included a word that could be deemed rascist eg. Black. Casilla is saying he didn’t say it like that which is completely plausible.
I think that’s very a difficult position for any governing body.
If the attitude is they risk sacrificing fairness to stamp out rascism as it’s the lesser evil of the 2 would that be reasonable?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What if in a situation a player mis heard an opposition player and believed he made a racist comment, when in actual fact he didnt. The "victim" isnt necessarily lying but the accused didnt actually say anything racist. Do you then think it's fair that the FA ban the accused because they dont have much choice?
I'm not saying this is what I believe happened with Kiko, this is simply a hypothetical situation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No it’s not fair. Definitely not fair.
I also think that the situation you describe is a summary of this case.
The thing is no one can prove whether what was said was rascist or not. And 99% of the time this will be the case.
So what do you do?
Do you trust the accuser?
Do you trust the accused who will always defend themselves?
You would have to be consistent you would think. Unless you decide on the toss of a coin.
So you do accept it’s not fair on the accused or accept it’s not fair on the accuser. It’s always going to be unfair one way or the other.
And I get the feeling they have decided it’s safer to be unfair on the accused and justify it by saying we need to stamp racism out of football.
It is complicated.
I’m talking about every case too, not just this one in isolation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You convict if there is evidence proving his guilt beyond all reasonable doubt. Witnesses, cameras etc. If its not there then its unfortunate (if racist comments were actually made) but that's the way the system works.
posted on 28/2/20
There is a question above of what is Leko's motivation for reporting this incident - so the reverse is what is Kiko's motivation for making a racist comment?
If Kiko actually said something to Leko (motivation being to put him off his game), then it could very well be construed as racist but if he was speaking to one of his own players (i.e. assuming he did say mark the black player), then where is the racist abuse?
One expects that the independent commission would have taken that into consideration. Let us see what their rationale was for coming to that decision.
posted on 28/2/20
Hampshire, sorry to hear what you went through.
And very relevant to this.
I’m not able to say what I think the right Policy is for the FA to take in these types of cases. Because I don’t know.
I can see the reasons for using both balance of probability and for using beyond reasonable doubt.
I can see huge negatives that are linked to using either option too. You have quite clearly given an example of why balance of probability shouldn’t be used.
You would also agree that the problem with using beyond reasonable doubt means most rascists will get away with it. This also is a problem.
I dont think there is a good solution.
posted on 28/2/20
comment by middlesexwhite (U4520)
posted 1 minute ago
There is a question above of what is Leko's motivation for reporting this incident - so the reverse is what is Kiko's motivation for making a racist comment?
If Kiko actually said something to Leko (motivation being to put him off his game), then it could very well be construed as racist but if he was speaking to one of his own players (i.e. assuming he did say mark the black player), then where is the racist abuse?
One expects that the independent commission would have taken that into consideration. Let us see what their rationale was for coming to that decision.
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Casilla should and hopefully had no motivation to say anything racist to Leko.
The problem is that there will be incidents where the motivation was simply that the player is a rascist and doesn’t lack black people.
I’m not arguing that the FA are doing things right by the way. Im just considering both sides.
posted on 28/2/20
"made reference to race and/or colour and/or ethnic origin", constituting an aggravated breach
Maybe he shoulda said "mark the IC3 unit"
you can't say "mark the big guy" cos big might be taken as derogatory and guy assumes someone's gender
The BBC called him "the Spaniard": what if he was a Catalan or Galician or Basque and really really really felt abused by being called a Spaniard?
Using a descriptor is not racist. Using a term in a derogatory manner is racist, or using the descriptor to indicate malign intent is bigoted and possibly racist.
Will be interesting to see what the actual report does say. Maybe all the media comments so far have been wrong and he is guilty of actual racism.
posted on 28/2/20
Quick question. Can anyone tell me that Kiko definitely didn’t say racist abuse to Leko?
No of course not.
So what happens if he did do it? Is the FA still in the wrong?
posted on 28/2/20
Saying 'mark the black guy' is an observation, not racial abuse.
posted on 28/2/20
Shaun. That quote has not come from anyone relevant to the situation. It was a speculative comment made by a fan.
We as fans have zero evidence at the moment to suggest one way or the other.
Hopefully we will get some when findings are released.
It’s a disgrace that this was not done at once
posted on 28/2/20
Quick question. Can anyone tell me that Kiko definitely didn’t say racist abuse to Leko?
No of course not.
So what happens if he did do it? Is the FA still in the wrong?
Even the FA can't "definitely" say he did or didn't , but they labelled him racist anyway .
Sorry but making a decision on probability is just wrong.
posted on 28/2/20
It is worth noting that not only have they found him guilty, they have also found additional aggravating circumstances - hence the 8 game ban rather than the 6 under the FA rules.
So the written decision next week will be an interesting read.
As regards probability versus beyond reasonable doubt, only criminal cases have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.All civil cases are decided on the balance of probability - this fits into that category. If there is evidence which allowed this to be proved at the higher bar (beyond reasonable doubt), then Kiko could potentially face criminal sanction as well.
posted on 28/2/20
Yes balance of probability is not a ridiculous concept.
I do wonder what the opinions would be if Lucas Radebe had accused Roy Keane of calling him a black ****. That Nigel Martyn said he heard it. And the FA decided to take no action due to lack of evidence.
posted on 28/2/20
Hull City have tweeted "timely reminder that tomorrow's game is dedicated to Kick It Out".
Absolutely classless. Truly is.
posted on 28/2/20
The Mirror is now headlining with this.
Banned Leeds goalkeeper Kiko Casilla allegedly called Jonathan Leko "n*****"
So no news from the FA regarding the comment, but the Mirror sensationalises the ban by alleging he used the "N" word.
All the numpties will now believe it's true.
posted on 28/2/20
comment by AlgarveWhite (U5640)
posted 8 minutes ago
The Mirror is now headlining with this.
Banned Leeds goalkeeper Kiko Casilla allegedly called Jonathan Leko "n*****"
So no news from the FA regarding the comment, but the Mirror sensationalises the ban by alleging he used the "N" word.
All the numpties will now believe it's true.
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"Numpties?" Why bring Moan U fans into this one?
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