After reading the link I have to agree. In fact better than anyone.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
The article touches on good point, that also baffled me.
"why Western countries did not follow Taiwan's lead in January and February when they still had a chance remains unclear."
At the time of the outbreak in China, the Dutch National Institute for Public Health and the
Environment kept repeating that it was most unlikely that the virus would come to the Netherlands as there were no direct flights from Wuhan.
At the time I found that a very strange confidence as surely that means fack all if you can fly from Wuhan to Europe and then take the next flight to Holland.
Its so naive that I cannot fathom why the experts said this and therefore the measures to stop the virus were delayed until patient ##.
I hope next time this shiiit happens we close our borders and immediately test everyone that came into the country.
And why the UK waited even two weeks longer to close down the gaff is even more questionable.
comment by Stay Safe (U1250)
posted 13 minutes ago
And why the UK waited even two weeks longer to close down the gaff is even more questionable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not an easy decision to decimate the economy on purpose
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by Stay Safe (U1250)
posted 13 minutes ago
And why the UK waited even two weeks longer to close down the gaff is even more questionable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not an easy decision to decimate the economy on purpose
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think this was the biggest issue. Economic consequence vs health consequence
I watched a documentary about 1918 flu and while covid is terrible I am still thankful the fatality rate is no where as bad. I know this is no consolation for those directly affected. All we can hope is that the western govt learn from this like the eastern govts (and people) have learnt from SARS2003
On that note, I have read Obama actually setup some sort of response group during Ebola outbreak. The idea was that the lessons learnt in west africa will be used if USA ever faced that sort of crisis in the future. Guess who decimated this group?
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 hour, 11 minutes ago
comment by Stay Safe (U1250)
posted 13 minutes ago
And why the UK waited even two weeks longer to close down the gaff is even more questionable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not an easy decision to decimate the economy on purpose
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yet by doing things way too late they have ironically decimated the economy "on purpose"
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 hour, 11 minutes ago
comment by Stay Safe (U1250)
posted 13 minutes ago
And why the UK waited even two weeks longer to close down the gaff is even more questionable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not an easy decision to decimate the economy on purpose
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yet by doing things way too late they have ironically decimated the economy "on purpose"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Way too late? I love the hindsight experts everywhere....
Lots of countries have had different approaches as to how to deal with this. Some worked ok some started well and backfired; there was no manual as to what to do in these circumstances. Look at Sweden & Singapore for example. Economic downturn causes deaths too not to mention severe financial consequences for the general populous
Western governments won't learn. It takes a certain type of regime to implement such measures, and quickly. Can't see a liberal capitalist country doing that.
Btw Robb, have you made your own DIY mask yet?
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 hour, 11 minutes ago
comment by Stay Safe (U1250)
posted 13 minutes ago
And why the UK waited even two weeks longer to close down the gaff is even more questionable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not an easy decision to decimate the economy on purpose
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yet by doing things way too late they have ironically decimated the economy "on purpose"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Way too late? I love the hindsight experts everywhere....
Lots of countries have had different approaches as to how to deal with this. Some worked ok some started well and backfired; there was no manual as to what to do in these circumstances. Look at Sweden & Singapore for example. Economic downturn causes deaths too not to mention severe financial consequences for the general populous
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately you don't have a leg to stand on. Overall the data is clearly in favour of those who took this seriously. If you think what I and others on here are saying is merely post outcome hindsight then please go back and read the polictics thread from a few month or so ago. Even then it was clear things had to be done far far sooner to anyone who bothered looking at the death rate and R0 of the virus
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 38 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 hour, 11 minutes ago
comment by Stay Safe (U1250)
posted 13 minutes ago
And why the UK waited even two weeks longer to close down the gaff is even more questionable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not an easy decision to decimate the economy on purpose
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yet by doing things way too late they have ironically decimated the economy "on purpose"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Way too late? I love the hindsight experts everywhere....
Lots of countries have had different approaches as to how to deal with this. Some worked ok some started well and backfired; there was no manual as to what to do in these circumstances. Look at Sweden & Singapore for example. Economic downturn causes deaths too not to mention severe financial consequences for the general populous
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately you don't have a leg to stand on. Overall the data is clearly in favour of those who took this seriously. If you think what I and others on here are saying is merely post outcome hindsight then please go back and read the polictics thread from a few month or so ago. Even then it was clear things had to be done far far sooner to anyone who bothered looking at the death rate and R0 of the virus
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Economic disaster causes a lot of deaths also, you know? I’m not interested if people on an Internet forum were calling for an earlier lockdown or not. The people making these decisions are being advised by experts in all fields & are making those decisions based on factors that you are not privy to. If an earlier lockdown had taken place and that caused even more severe economic impact then there would have been a similar group of people saying that they were calling for a later lockdown and that it was done too early; neither option is a win really is it?
As per the OP, hopefully most countries prepare for such events masks, ventilators et cetera so that things can be controlled better. Apart from Taiwan I cannot think of a country that has so far handled this perfectly. My point is that it’s all too easy to play the blame game.
Economic disaster causes a lot of deaths also, you know? I’m not interested if people on an Internet forum were calling for an earlier lockdown or not. The people making these decisions are being advised by experts in all fields & are making those decisions based on factors that you are not privy to. If an earlier lockdown had taken place and that caused even more severe economic impact then there would have been a similar group of people saying that they were calling for a later lockdown and that it was done too early; neither option is a win really is it?
As per the OP, hopefully most countries prepare for such events masks, ventilators et cetera so that things can be controlled better. Apart from Taiwan I cannot think of a country that has so far handled this perfectly. My point is that it’s all too easy to play the blame game.
..........
This.
But you'll get an economic disaster anyway?
One comes with guaranteed deaths from a currently untreatable virus the other only comes from keeping a broken economic model afloat (in the second scenario those deaths are actually preventable, if they weren't everyone would already be dying from starvation).
Robb you talk about Taiwan as if all is positive, yes it is mostly positive
I am a british/Taiwanese duo national so I’ll shed some light on the other side
The forced quarantine measures aren’t mentioned in he article. To me it isn’t all about what governments at willing or unwilling to do, it’s alway about what the citizens are willing to accept. In Taiwan:
Foreign nationals are barred from entry
Nationals are forced into quarantine for 14 days at home, tracked by your SIM card signal (a bit big brother imo)
If you’re out and caught during your time of quarantine you’ll be fined up to £25000
Try any of the above in this country and you’ll have riots
People in the uk care about privacy above all else
comment by Love Quinn (U8966)
posted 5 minutes ago
Robb you talk about Taiwan as if all is positive, yes it is mostly positive
I am a british/Taiwanese duo national so I’ll shed some light on the other side
The forced quarantine measures aren’t mentioned in he article. To me it isn’t all about what governments at willing or unwilling to do, it’s alway about what the citizens are willing to accept. In Taiwan:
Foreign nationals are barred from entry
Nationals are forced into quarantine for 14 days at home, tracked by your SIM card signal (a bit big brother imo)
If you’re out and caught during your time of quarantine you’ll be fined up to £25000
Try any of the above in this country and you’ll have riots
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's exactly what's happening here in Australia, a very similar country to the UK in terms of public attitude.
No entry for foreign residents
Nationals must self isolate upon return
Caught flouting your isolation there are big fines
*The fine for generally flouting the lockdown is different and there's no high tech tracking though
how are people responding there?
I want to add that not being allowed out your door for any reason, not to get food not to exercise or get meds, nothing, (not like the soft measures here) is a completely different animal
comment by Love Quinn (U8966)
posted 1 minute ago
how are people responding there?
I want to add that not being allowed out your door for any reason, not to get food not to exercise or get meds, nothing, (not like the soft measures here) is a completely different animal
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The lock down isn't as strict at all but they were very proactive in closing the borders which I think has really helped them.
At the moment people are doing some things well but also there's been a lot of issues with keeping people off beaches (major ones now closed).
You can still go out and exercise and work is still open for those who can't work from home/have public facing jobs (bars, gyms etc all closed).
I don't think they've been strict enough with it but Australia is at a major advantage vs the UK and Taiwan due to it's low population density anyway.
I know people say Sydney is nearly as busy as London but even that wasn't remotely true my experience when I lived there (I live in another Oz city now). Even at rush hour I used to get a seat on the train to work.
People are now copping fines for non essential travel, even if they don't get out of their car it's $1000+.
The other thing they've done is shut the state borders although that's just this week. Essentially trying to create islands within the country.
Outside of major cities Australia is incredibly sparsely populated, it just doesn't compare to any other country I been to.
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 24 minutes ago
But you'll get an economic disaster anyway?
One comes with guaranteed deaths from a currently untreatable virus the other only comes from keeping a broken economic model afloat (in the second scenario those deaths are actually preventable, if they weren't everyone would already be dying from starvation).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As I said I think it’s a balancing act between those two horrendous an inevitable outcomes - economic meltdown & deaths.
Extra lockdown would mean / would have meant less deaths but worse economic effects and vice versa.
Also as I’ve said, you’ll never hear the government come out and say that they’re determining the value of human life but that’s what they have to do
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 46 seconds ago
comment by Love Quinn (U8966)
posted 1 minute ago
how are people responding there?
I want to add that not being allowed out your door for any reason, not to get food not to exercise or get meds, nothing, (not like the soft measures here) is a completely different animal
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The lock down isn't as strict at all but they were very proactive in closing the borders which I think has really helped them.
At the moment people are doing some things well but also there's been a lot of issues with keeping people off beaches (major ones now closed).
You can still go out and exercise and work is still open for those who can't work from home/have public facing jobs (bars, gyms etc all closed).
I don't think they've been strict enough with it but Australia is at a major advantage vs the UK and Taiwan due to it's low population density anyway.
I know people say Sydney is nearly as busy as London but even that wasn't remotely true my experience when I lived there (I live in another Oz city now). Even at rush hour I used to get a seat on the train to work.
People are now copping fines for non essential travel, even if they don't get out of their car it's $1000+.
The other thing they've done is shut the state borders although that's just this week. Essentially trying to create islands within the country.
Outside of major cities Australia is incredibly sparsely populated, it just doesn't compare to any other country I been to.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Damn 1000 dollar fine for driving, that’s pretty serious. I guess it’s an effective deterrent as anyone not adhering to social distancing could just say they’re bored and going for a drive but still...1000 dollars....
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 45 seconds ago
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 24 minutes ago
But you'll get an economic disaster anyway?
One comes with guaranteed deaths from a currently untreatable virus the other only comes from keeping a broken economic model afloat (in the second scenario those deaths are actually preventable, if they weren't everyone would already be dying from starvation).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As I said I think it’s a balancing act between those two horrendous an inevitable outcomes - economic meltdown & deaths.
Extra lockdown would mean / would have meant less deaths but worse economic effects and vice versa.
Also as I’ve said, you’ll never hear the government come out and say that they’re determining the value of human life but that’s what they have to do
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I honestly don't think that's true anyway.
An earlier lock down would've almost certainly had less of an economic impact. It's like investing in prisoner rehabilitation, spend your money early on helping that person to brake the cycle and they'll likely cost you less in future. We had a similar oppotunity but didn't take it, now things are different. There will be a greater economic impact because of the poor choices already made, this gets worse the longer you continue to let it spread.
If and when we conquer the virus - it costs lives if you carry on as normal afterwards but this economic model has to end at some point anyway so it might as well be after this crisis. You can't sustain a growth model forever in a planet with finite resources.
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 46 seconds ago
comment by Love Quinn (U8966)
posted 1 minute ago
how are people responding there?
I want to add that not being allowed out your door for any reason, not to get food not to exercise or get meds, nothing, (not like the soft measures here) is a completely different animal
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The lock down isn't as strict at all but they were very proactive in closing the borders which I think has really helped them.
At the moment people are doing some things well but also there's been a lot of issues with keeping people off beaches (major ones now closed).
You can still go out and exercise and work is still open for those who can't work from home/have public facing jobs (bars, gyms etc all closed).
I don't think they've been strict enough with it but Australia is at a major advantage vs the UK and Taiwan due to it's low population density anyway.
I know people say Sydney is nearly as busy as London but even that wasn't remotely true my experience when I lived there (I live in another Oz city now). Even at rush hour I used to get a seat on the train to work.
People are now copping fines for non essential travel, even if they don't get out of their car it's $1000+.
The other thing they've done is shut the state borders although that's just this week. Essentially trying to create islands within the country.
Outside of major cities Australia is incredibly sparsely populated, it just doesn't compare to any other country I been to.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Damn 1000 dollar fine for driving, that’s pretty serious. I guess it’s an effective deterrent as anyone not adhering to social distancing could just say they’re bored and going for a drive but still...1000 dollars....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually $1000 is on the low end
A girl got fined $1600 yesterday for doing a driving lesson with her mum
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 46 seconds ago
comment by Love Quinn (U8966)
posted 1 minute ago
how are people responding there?
I want to add that not being allowed out your door for any reason, not to get food not to exercise or get meds, nothing, (not like the soft measures here) is a completely different animal
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The lock down isn't as strict at all but they were very proactive in closing the borders which I think has really helped them.
At the moment people are doing some things well but also there's been a lot of issues with keeping people off beaches (major ones now closed).
You can still go out and exercise and work is still open for those who can't work from home/have public facing jobs (bars, gyms etc all closed).
I don't think they've been strict enough with it but Australia is at a major advantage vs the UK and Taiwan due to it's low population density anyway.
I know people say Sydney is nearly as busy as London but even that wasn't remotely true my experience when I lived there (I live in another Oz city now). Even at rush hour I used to get a seat on the train to work.
People are now copping fines for non essential travel, even if they don't get out of their car it's $1000+.
The other thing they've done is shut the state borders although that's just this week. Essentially trying to create islands within the country.
Outside of major cities Australia is incredibly sparsely populated, it just doesn't compare to any other country I been to.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Damn 1000 dollar fine for driving, that’s pretty serious. I guess it’s an effective deterrent as anyone not adhering to social distancing could just say they’re bored and going for a drive but still...1000 dollars....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually $1000 is on the low end
A girl got fined $1600 yesterday for doing a driving lesson with her mum
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry but that’s pathetic but if you know the rules and break them I guess there are consequences....
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 45 seconds ago
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 24 minutes ago
But you'll get an economic disaster anyway?
One comes with guaranteed deaths from a currently untreatable virus the other only comes from keeping a broken economic model afloat (in the second scenario those deaths are actually preventable, if they weren't everyone would already be dying from starvation).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As I said I think it’s a balancing act between those two horrendous an inevitable outcomes - economic meltdown & deaths.
Extra lockdown would mean / would have meant less deaths but worse economic effects and vice versa.
Also as I’ve said, you’ll never hear the government come out and say that they’re determining the value of human life but that’s what they have to do
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I honestly don't think that's true anyway.
An earlier lock down would've almost certainly had less of an economic impact. It's like investing in prisoner rehabilitation, spend your money early on helping that person to brake the cycle and they'll likely cost you less in future. We had a similar oppotunity but didn't take it, now things are different. There will be a greater economic impact because of the poor choices already made, this gets worse the longer you continue to let it spread.
If and when we conquer the virus - it costs lives if you carry on as normal afterwards but this economic model has to end at some point anyway so it might as well be after this crisis. You can't sustain a growth model forever in a planet with finite resources.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We’re heading into a very large and complex topic now; one that is probably way above either of us 😂
Sign in if you want to comment
Taiwan
Page 1 of 2
posted on 6/4/20
After reading the link I have to agree. In fact better than anyone.
posted on 6/4/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 6/4/20
The article touches on good point, that also baffled me.
"why Western countries did not follow Taiwan's lead in January and February when they still had a chance remains unclear."
At the time of the outbreak in China, the Dutch National Institute for Public Health and the
Environment kept repeating that it was most unlikely that the virus would come to the Netherlands as there were no direct flights from Wuhan.
At the time I found that a very strange confidence as surely that means fack all if you can fly from Wuhan to Europe and then take the next flight to Holland.
Its so naive that I cannot fathom why the experts said this and therefore the measures to stop the virus were delayed until patient ##.
I hope next time this shiiit happens we close our borders and immediately test everyone that came into the country.
posted on 6/4/20
And why the UK waited even two weeks longer to close down the gaff is even more questionable.
posted on 6/4/20
comment by Stay Safe (U1250)
posted 13 minutes ago
And why the UK waited even two weeks longer to close down the gaff is even more questionable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not an easy decision to decimate the economy on purpose
posted on 6/4/20
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by Stay Safe (U1250)
posted 13 minutes ago
And why the UK waited even two weeks longer to close down the gaff is even more questionable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not an easy decision to decimate the economy on purpose
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think this was the biggest issue. Economic consequence vs health consequence
I watched a documentary about 1918 flu and while covid is terrible I am still thankful the fatality rate is no where as bad. I know this is no consolation for those directly affected. All we can hope is that the western govt learn from this like the eastern govts (and people) have learnt from SARS2003
On that note, I have read Obama actually setup some sort of response group during Ebola outbreak. The idea was that the lessons learnt in west africa will be used if USA ever faced that sort of crisis in the future. Guess who decimated this group?
posted on 6/4/20
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 hour, 11 minutes ago
comment by Stay Safe (U1250)
posted 13 minutes ago
And why the UK waited even two weeks longer to close down the gaff is even more questionable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not an easy decision to decimate the economy on purpose
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yet by doing things way too late they have ironically decimated the economy "on purpose"
posted on 6/4/20
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 hour, 11 minutes ago
comment by Stay Safe (U1250)
posted 13 minutes ago
And why the UK waited even two weeks longer to close down the gaff is even more questionable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not an easy decision to decimate the economy on purpose
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yet by doing things way too late they have ironically decimated the economy "on purpose"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Way too late? I love the hindsight experts everywhere....
Lots of countries have had different approaches as to how to deal with this. Some worked ok some started well and backfired; there was no manual as to what to do in these circumstances. Look at Sweden & Singapore for example. Economic downturn causes deaths too not to mention severe financial consequences for the general populous
posted on 6/4/20
Western governments won't learn. It takes a certain type of regime to implement such measures, and quickly. Can't see a liberal capitalist country doing that.
posted on 6/4/20
Btw Robb, have you made your own DIY mask yet?
posted on 6/4/20
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 hour, 11 minutes ago
comment by Stay Safe (U1250)
posted 13 minutes ago
And why the UK waited even two weeks longer to close down the gaff is even more questionable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not an easy decision to decimate the economy on purpose
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yet by doing things way too late they have ironically decimated the economy "on purpose"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Way too late? I love the hindsight experts everywhere....
Lots of countries have had different approaches as to how to deal with this. Some worked ok some started well and backfired; there was no manual as to what to do in these circumstances. Look at Sweden & Singapore for example. Economic downturn causes deaths too not to mention severe financial consequences for the general populous
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately you don't have a leg to stand on. Overall the data is clearly in favour of those who took this seriously. If you think what I and others on here are saying is merely post outcome hindsight then please go back and read the polictics thread from a few month or so ago. Even then it was clear things had to be done far far sooner to anyone who bothered looking at the death rate and R0 of the virus
posted on 6/4/20
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 38 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 hour, 11 minutes ago
comment by Stay Safe (U1250)
posted 13 minutes ago
And why the UK waited even two weeks longer to close down the gaff is even more questionable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not an easy decision to decimate the economy on purpose
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yet by doing things way too late they have ironically decimated the economy "on purpose"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Way too late? I love the hindsight experts everywhere....
Lots of countries have had different approaches as to how to deal with this. Some worked ok some started well and backfired; there was no manual as to what to do in these circumstances. Look at Sweden & Singapore for example. Economic downturn causes deaths too not to mention severe financial consequences for the general populous
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately you don't have a leg to stand on. Overall the data is clearly in favour of those who took this seriously. If you think what I and others on here are saying is merely post outcome hindsight then please go back and read the polictics thread from a few month or so ago. Even then it was clear things had to be done far far sooner to anyone who bothered looking at the death rate and R0 of the virus
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Economic disaster causes a lot of deaths also, you know? I’m not interested if people on an Internet forum were calling for an earlier lockdown or not. The people making these decisions are being advised by experts in all fields & are making those decisions based on factors that you are not privy to. If an earlier lockdown had taken place and that caused even more severe economic impact then there would have been a similar group of people saying that they were calling for a later lockdown and that it was done too early; neither option is a win really is it?
As per the OP, hopefully most countries prepare for such events masks, ventilators et cetera so that things can be controlled better. Apart from Taiwan I cannot think of a country that has so far handled this perfectly. My point is that it’s all too easy to play the blame game.
posted on 6/4/20
Economic disaster causes a lot of deaths also, you know? I’m not interested if people on an Internet forum were calling for an earlier lockdown or not. The people making these decisions are being advised by experts in all fields & are making those decisions based on factors that you are not privy to. If an earlier lockdown had taken place and that caused even more severe economic impact then there would have been a similar group of people saying that they were calling for a later lockdown and that it was done too early; neither option is a win really is it?
As per the OP, hopefully most countries prepare for such events masks, ventilators et cetera so that things can be controlled better. Apart from Taiwan I cannot think of a country that has so far handled this perfectly. My point is that it’s all too easy to play the blame game.
..........
This.
posted on 6/4/20
But you'll get an economic disaster anyway?
One comes with guaranteed deaths from a currently untreatable virus the other only comes from keeping a broken economic model afloat (in the second scenario those deaths are actually preventable, if they weren't everyone would already be dying from starvation).
posted on 6/4/20
Robb you talk about Taiwan as if all is positive, yes it is mostly positive
I am a british/Taiwanese duo national so I’ll shed some light on the other side
The forced quarantine measures aren’t mentioned in he article. To me it isn’t all about what governments at willing or unwilling to do, it’s alway about what the citizens are willing to accept. In Taiwan:
Foreign nationals are barred from entry
Nationals are forced into quarantine for 14 days at home, tracked by your SIM card signal (a bit big brother imo)
If you’re out and caught during your time of quarantine you’ll be fined up to £25000
Try any of the above in this country and you’ll have riots
posted on 6/4/20
People in the uk care about privacy above all else
posted on 6/4/20
comment by Love Quinn (U8966)
posted 5 minutes ago
Robb you talk about Taiwan as if all is positive, yes it is mostly positive
I am a british/Taiwanese duo national so I’ll shed some light on the other side
The forced quarantine measures aren’t mentioned in he article. To me it isn’t all about what governments at willing or unwilling to do, it’s alway about what the citizens are willing to accept. In Taiwan:
Foreign nationals are barred from entry
Nationals are forced into quarantine for 14 days at home, tracked by your SIM card signal (a bit big brother imo)
If you’re out and caught during your time of quarantine you’ll be fined up to £25000
Try any of the above in this country and you’ll have riots
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's exactly what's happening here in Australia, a very similar country to the UK in terms of public attitude.
No entry for foreign residents
Nationals must self isolate upon return
Caught flouting your isolation there are big fines
*The fine for generally flouting the lockdown is different and there's no high tech tracking though
posted on 6/4/20
how are people responding there?
I want to add that not being allowed out your door for any reason, not to get food not to exercise or get meds, nothing, (not like the soft measures here) is a completely different animal
posted on 6/4/20
comment by Love Quinn (U8966)
posted 1 minute ago
how are people responding there?
I want to add that not being allowed out your door for any reason, not to get food not to exercise or get meds, nothing, (not like the soft measures here) is a completely different animal
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The lock down isn't as strict at all but they were very proactive in closing the borders which I think has really helped them.
At the moment people are doing some things well but also there's been a lot of issues with keeping people off beaches (major ones now closed).
You can still go out and exercise and work is still open for those who can't work from home/have public facing jobs (bars, gyms etc all closed).
I don't think they've been strict enough with it but Australia is at a major advantage vs the UK and Taiwan due to it's low population density anyway.
I know people say Sydney is nearly as busy as London but even that wasn't remotely true my experience when I lived there (I live in another Oz city now). Even at rush hour I used to get a seat on the train to work.
People are now copping fines for non essential travel, even if they don't get out of their car it's $1000+.
The other thing they've done is shut the state borders although that's just this week. Essentially trying to create islands within the country.
Outside of major cities Australia is incredibly sparsely populated, it just doesn't compare to any other country I been to.
posted on 6/4/20
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 24 minutes ago
But you'll get an economic disaster anyway?
One comes with guaranteed deaths from a currently untreatable virus the other only comes from keeping a broken economic model afloat (in the second scenario those deaths are actually preventable, if they weren't everyone would already be dying from starvation).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As I said I think it’s a balancing act between those two horrendous an inevitable outcomes - economic meltdown & deaths.
Extra lockdown would mean / would have meant less deaths but worse economic effects and vice versa.
Also as I’ve said, you’ll never hear the government come out and say that they’re determining the value of human life but that’s what they have to do
posted on 6/4/20
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 46 seconds ago
comment by Love Quinn (U8966)
posted 1 minute ago
how are people responding there?
I want to add that not being allowed out your door for any reason, not to get food not to exercise or get meds, nothing, (not like the soft measures here) is a completely different animal
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The lock down isn't as strict at all but they were very proactive in closing the borders which I think has really helped them.
At the moment people are doing some things well but also there's been a lot of issues with keeping people off beaches (major ones now closed).
You can still go out and exercise and work is still open for those who can't work from home/have public facing jobs (bars, gyms etc all closed).
I don't think they've been strict enough with it but Australia is at a major advantage vs the UK and Taiwan due to it's low population density anyway.
I know people say Sydney is nearly as busy as London but even that wasn't remotely true my experience when I lived there (I live in another Oz city now). Even at rush hour I used to get a seat on the train to work.
People are now copping fines for non essential travel, even if they don't get out of their car it's $1000+.
The other thing they've done is shut the state borders although that's just this week. Essentially trying to create islands within the country.
Outside of major cities Australia is incredibly sparsely populated, it just doesn't compare to any other country I been to.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Damn 1000 dollar fine for driving, that’s pretty serious. I guess it’s an effective deterrent as anyone not adhering to social distancing could just say they’re bored and going for a drive but still...1000 dollars....
posted on 6/4/20
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 45 seconds ago
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 24 minutes ago
But you'll get an economic disaster anyway?
One comes with guaranteed deaths from a currently untreatable virus the other only comes from keeping a broken economic model afloat (in the second scenario those deaths are actually preventable, if they weren't everyone would already be dying from starvation).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As I said I think it’s a balancing act between those two horrendous an inevitable outcomes - economic meltdown & deaths.
Extra lockdown would mean / would have meant less deaths but worse economic effects and vice versa.
Also as I’ve said, you’ll never hear the government come out and say that they’re determining the value of human life but that’s what they have to do
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I honestly don't think that's true anyway.
An earlier lock down would've almost certainly had less of an economic impact. It's like investing in prisoner rehabilitation, spend your money early on helping that person to brake the cycle and they'll likely cost you less in future. We had a similar oppotunity but didn't take it, now things are different. There will be a greater economic impact because of the poor choices already made, this gets worse the longer you continue to let it spread.
If and when we conquer the virus - it costs lives if you carry on as normal afterwards but this economic model has to end at some point anyway so it might as well be after this crisis. You can't sustain a growth model forever in a planet with finite resources.
posted on 6/4/20
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 46 seconds ago
comment by Love Quinn (U8966)
posted 1 minute ago
how are people responding there?
I want to add that not being allowed out your door for any reason, not to get food not to exercise or get meds, nothing, (not like the soft measures here) is a completely different animal
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The lock down isn't as strict at all but they were very proactive in closing the borders which I think has really helped them.
At the moment people are doing some things well but also there's been a lot of issues with keeping people off beaches (major ones now closed).
You can still go out and exercise and work is still open for those who can't work from home/have public facing jobs (bars, gyms etc all closed).
I don't think they've been strict enough with it but Australia is at a major advantage vs the UK and Taiwan due to it's low population density anyway.
I know people say Sydney is nearly as busy as London but even that wasn't remotely true my experience when I lived there (I live in another Oz city now). Even at rush hour I used to get a seat on the train to work.
People are now copping fines for non essential travel, even if they don't get out of their car it's $1000+.
The other thing they've done is shut the state borders although that's just this week. Essentially trying to create islands within the country.
Outside of major cities Australia is incredibly sparsely populated, it just doesn't compare to any other country I been to.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Damn 1000 dollar fine for driving, that’s pretty serious. I guess it’s an effective deterrent as anyone not adhering to social distancing could just say they’re bored and going for a drive but still...1000 dollars....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually $1000 is on the low end
A girl got fined $1600 yesterday for doing a driving lesson with her mum
posted on 6/4/20
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 46 seconds ago
comment by Love Quinn (U8966)
posted 1 minute ago
how are people responding there?
I want to add that not being allowed out your door for any reason, not to get food not to exercise or get meds, nothing, (not like the soft measures here) is a completely different animal
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The lock down isn't as strict at all but they were very proactive in closing the borders which I think has really helped them.
At the moment people are doing some things well but also there's been a lot of issues with keeping people off beaches (major ones now closed).
You can still go out and exercise and work is still open for those who can't work from home/have public facing jobs (bars, gyms etc all closed).
I don't think they've been strict enough with it but Australia is at a major advantage vs the UK and Taiwan due to it's low population density anyway.
I know people say Sydney is nearly as busy as London but even that wasn't remotely true my experience when I lived there (I live in another Oz city now). Even at rush hour I used to get a seat on the train to work.
People are now copping fines for non essential travel, even if they don't get out of their car it's $1000+.
The other thing they've done is shut the state borders although that's just this week. Essentially trying to create islands within the country.
Outside of major cities Australia is incredibly sparsely populated, it just doesn't compare to any other country I been to.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Damn 1000 dollar fine for driving, that’s pretty serious. I guess it’s an effective deterrent as anyone not adhering to social distancing could just say they’re bored and going for a drive but still...1000 dollars....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually $1000 is on the low end
A girl got fined $1600 yesterday for doing a driving lesson with her mum
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry but that’s pathetic but if you know the rules and break them I guess there are consequences....
posted on 6/4/20
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 45 seconds ago
comment by Scruttocks (U19684)
posted 24 minutes ago
But you'll get an economic disaster anyway?
One comes with guaranteed deaths from a currently untreatable virus the other only comes from keeping a broken economic model afloat (in the second scenario those deaths are actually preventable, if they weren't everyone would already be dying from starvation).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As I said I think it’s a balancing act between those two horrendous an inevitable outcomes - economic meltdown & deaths.
Extra lockdown would mean / would have meant less deaths but worse economic effects and vice versa.
Also as I’ve said, you’ll never hear the government come out and say that they’re determining the value of human life but that’s what they have to do
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I honestly don't think that's true anyway.
An earlier lock down would've almost certainly had less of an economic impact. It's like investing in prisoner rehabilitation, spend your money early on helping that person to brake the cycle and they'll likely cost you less in future. We had a similar oppotunity but didn't take it, now things are different. There will be a greater economic impact because of the poor choices already made, this gets worse the longer you continue to let it spread.
If and when we conquer the virus - it costs lives if you carry on as normal afterwards but this economic model has to end at some point anyway so it might as well be after this crisis. You can't sustain a growth model forever in a planet with finite resources.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We’re heading into a very large and complex topic now; one that is probably way above either of us 😂
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