comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 hours, 17 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 8 minutes ago
Not saying he couldn’t be upgraded, VC, but CB shouldn’t (and won’t) be the focus right now.
.......
Yes it should. If it isn’t next season will be exactly the same as this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We’ll only get so far playing the “we’ll score more than you” game. This was also a part of Liverpool’s evolution, it was VVD and Allison that transformed them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True, but Liverpool's front 6 was both deadlier in attack and better at defending as a team than ours is when they made those defensive acquisitions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Disagree, like our defense it was individual errors costing them. I believe with a deeper squad, keeping the front 6 fresher (able to press for longer periods) and better individuals, we'd defend just fine.
The stats speak for themselves, we look at our defense and think it's poor, but the stats say otherwise.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with that, which is why I was disputing the idea that upgrading our central defence would be as transformational to our team as bringing in VVD was to Liverpool's. Obviously, it would be a massive boost to have a player of his quality next to Maguire but for me if we can only spend big on one position this summer, a world class right sided forwarded would be the priority. Sancho would improve the first XI and at the same time expand the variety and quality of options we have on the bench.
"There are very few games where I can say we have looked defensively sound."
Think we can all agree here. But with a better DM and CB, I do believe we'd look more sound.
Most of our issues stem from individual errors in my opinion.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 48 seconds ago
I think our defensive stats look better than they are because of the quality of striker we mostly come up against.
It would be interesting to see where we are in the stats of chances misses against us. There are very few games where I can say we have looked defensively sound. Even in games we have walked.
Don’t get me wrong, we are not bad but the stats say we are better than we really look. Take the recent Southampton game. They looked like they would score in every attack for the last half an hour. I bet there wasn’t a single person on the match thread that didn’t see the equalizer coming.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know where you're coming from but over a season it's unlikely we've faced worse attacks / strikers on average in worse form than anyone else. Relative to other teams, we haven't done at all badly in terms of goals conceded.
i was just idly looking at the two halves of last season's premier league.
in the first 19 games of the season we took 28 points, in the second 19 38 points. and with bruno coming in, pogba/rashford returning from injury, the rise of greenwood, a PL record for consecutive 3-goal victories, you would assume our improvement in the 2nd half of the season was entirely driven by scoring more goals.
yet in the first half we scored 30 and conceded 23; in the second half we scored 36 and conceded just 13 (second to city, who shipped 12).
so i think my conclusion was that, even with the big guns fit, scoring goals is still more of a concern than conceding them. and given that we spent £130mish on the defence last year (over 60% of our total spending), i doubt we'll be committing much to it this summer.
We concede fewer goals than Liverpool were in their ‘we’ll score more than you’ game. We score fewer as well. We aren’t playing that same game they were.
I think it’s pointless comparing ourselves with what Liverpool did anyway. They’re a bit of an anomaly.
Although one comparison could be made in saying that waiting for the right player, and opportunity, to raise the level of the defence might be a sensible approach for us to take.
There isn’t a VVD and Allison available for us to sign right now. So it’s pointless bringing it up. There are, however, some good attackers and midfielders that can help raise the quality of this team.
It’s a shame shaw isn’t a bit taller, reckon he’d make a better centre back than a fullback. Pace, decent tackler.
comment by Don Draper's dandruff (U20155)
posted 9 minutes ago
i was just idly looking at the two halves of last season's premier league.
in the first 19 games of the season we took 28 points, in the second 19 38 points. and with bruno coming in, pogba/rashford returning from injury, the rise of greenwood, a PL record for consecutive 3-goal victories, you would assume our improvement in the 2nd half of the season was entirely driven by scoring more goals.
yet in the first half we scored 30 and conceded 23; in the second half we scored 36 and conceded just 13 (second to city, who shipped 12).
so i think my conclusion was that, even with the big guns fit, scoring goals is still more of a concern than conceding them. and given that we spent £130mish on the defence last year (over 60% of our total spending), i doubt we'll be committing much to it this summer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really interesting stats. I suspect that our greater attacking potency in the second half of the season can take some credit for our improved defensive stats. We've been dominating games more, pressing better and of course teams are less likely to commit players forward the more frightened they are that we can hurt them on the counter.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 19 minutes ago
I think our defensive stats look better than they are because of the quality of striker we mostly come up against.
It would be interesting to see where we are in the stats of chances misses against us. There are very few games where I can say we have looked defensively sound. Even in games we have walked.
Don’t get me wrong, we are not bad but the stats say we are better than we really look. Take the recent Southampton game. They looked like they would score in every attack for the last half an hour. I bet there wasn’t a single person on the match thread that didn’t see the equalizer coming.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Expected goals against (which considers the context of all chances racked up against the side, both taken and otherwise) would see us still with the third meanest defence in the league over the season, and actually a better one than Liverpool’s.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Don Draper's dandruff (U20155)
posted 9 minutes ago
i was just idly looking at the two halves of last season's premier league.
in the first 19 games of the season we took 28 points, in the second 19 38 points. and with bruno coming in, pogba/rashford returning from injury, the rise of greenwood, a PL record for consecutive 3-goal victories, you would assume our improvement in the 2nd half of the season was entirely driven by scoring more goals.
yet in the first half we scored 30 and conceded 23; in the second half we scored 36 and conceded just 13 (second to city, who shipped 12).
so i think my conclusion was that, even with the big guns fit, scoring goals is still more of a concern than conceding them. and given that we spent £130mish on the defence last year (over 60% of our total spending), i doubt we'll be committing much to it this summer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really interesting stats. I suspect that our greater attacking potency in the second half of the season can take some credit for our improved defensive stats. We've been dominating games more, pressing better and of course teams are less likely to commit players forward the more frightened they are that we can hurt them on the counter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, also this.
I don’t see the need to focus on the defence when it is already more or less as successful as any other in the league, unlike our attack.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really interesting stats. I suspect that our greater attacking potency in the second half of the season can take some credit for our improved defensive stats. We've been dominating games more, pressing better and of course teams are less likely to commit players forward the more frightened they are that we can hurt them on the counter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was surprised in all honesty.
But yes, sorting the midfield out, being able to field 3-4-5 potent attackers, rather than the 1-2 we struggled with in the first half of the year, keeping the ball better and being more aggressive off it, have all helped the defence out (the back 4 obviously became more familiar with each other too, i seem to remember maguire missing all of our pre-season training because he joined so late).
And as Darren says, if there are no obvious defenders out there for us to buy, but there are obvious attackers out there, let's go for the latter, and we can always make the former as and when they become available.
Personally I think that our defenders are just about good enough to win the league, as is our front five, but I have serious doubts about Matic - over 38 games at least - and zero doubt that our squad players are simply not good enough.
It’s actually quite a positive sign that people are arguing about where it’s most important for us to be making incremental improvements.
In previous years we could see that we had massive and critical issues in the centre of the park, then at CB, then up top, etc.
Until recently the obvious gaping hole was at RW. Now Greenwood’s emergence has even calmed that, at the very least.
It’s nice to be talking about improving the squad rather than obvious issues with the preferred XI
Coming from behind and killing games off has been an issue due to our lack of quality in attack. This has been evident every season since Fergie retired.
Bar last season, the amount of goals we concede hasn’t been a huge problem compared to most of our rivals - even compared to many of our title winning teams. The amount we score, however, has generally been a problem.
Bearing in mind we have general agreement that scoring more goals is a bigger priority than conceding fewer, and bearing in mind that the improvements in Rashford and Martial, the emergence of Greenwood, the depth provided by Ighalo make striking options look much less of a concern than this time last summer... when thinking about incremental improvements and potential weaknesses, are we one ankle breaking lunge on Fernandes away from losing the ability to get the ball quickly to our front three?
I'd still prioritise Sancho, because greater dynamism on the right wing can balance out a more workmanlike midfield (see LFC). But the huge difference Bruno has made makes you anxious about how reliant we are on him.
That’s why I think we’ll be after Grealish. Issue may be Villa pricing him unreasonably high. But then there’s been interest in VDB as well. Could be a cheaper alternative and can cover Pogba’s role in central midfield as well.
Yes, but think VDS or VDV more than RVN or RVP.
Not sure if it was mentioned in the Lindelöf debate yesterday but turns out he's the least dribbled past player among all defenders and midfielders in the PL (averaging 0.1 times per game).
https://www.football365.com/news/premier-league-numbers-and-stats-best-worst-lindelof-alexander-arnold-kepa
I saw that. There’d be loads of articles on here about it if we were Liverpool fans.
comment by Imran The King Khan (U10026)
posted 48 minutes ago
I saw that. There’d be loads of articles on here about it if we were Liverpool fans.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
VVD (or is that DVD) averaged 0.2 per game. That's scientific proof of what we all suspected all along: Lindelöf is twice as good as Van Dijk.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Imran The King Khan (U10026)
posted 48 minutes ago
I saw that. There’d be loads of articles on here about it if we were Liverpool fans.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
VVD (or is that DVD) averaged 0.2 per game. That's scientific proof of what we all suspected all along: Lindelöf is twice as good as Van Dijk.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why are you making stuff up to make VVD look bad? We all know that he has never ever been dribbled past in the whole history of the universe.
Yeah I’m with Elvis on this.
Another name in the rumours this morning: Monaco's Benoît Badiashile.
I don't know him but, given the kind of consensus that we could upgrade but it's not top priority, buying a young player with a potentially very high ceiling while clearing out the older back-up players with lower ceilings looks a decent strategy to me.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 6 minutes ago
Another name in the rumours this morning: Monaco's Benoît Badiashile.
I don't know him but, given the kind of consensus that we could upgrade but it's not top priority, buying a young player with a potentially very high ceiling while clearing out the older back-up players with lower ceilings looks a decent strategy to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know nothing about the lad other than he looks like one hardass muthafacka.
comment by rosso is done with this (U17054)
posted 1 hour, 13 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 6 minutes ago
Another name in the rumours this morning: Monaco's Benoît Badiashile.
I don't know him but, given the kind of consensus that we could upgrade but it's not top priority, buying a young player with a potentially very high ceiling while clearing out the older back-up players with lower ceilings looks a decent strategy to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know nothing about the lad other than he looks like one hardass muthafacka.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Always appreciate your cogent analysis, rosso
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by rosso is done with this (U17054)
posted 1 hour, 13 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 6 minutes ago
Another name in the rumours this morning: Monaco's Benoît Badiashile.
I don't know him but, given the kind of consensus that we could upgrade but it's not top priority, buying a young player with a potentially very high ceiling while clearing out the older back-up players with lower ceilings looks a decent strategy to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know nothing about the lad other than he looks like one hardass muthafacka.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Always appreciate your cogent analysis, rosso
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Word
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Centre back
Page 4 of 4
posted on 30/7/20
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 hours, 17 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 8 minutes ago
Not saying he couldn’t be upgraded, VC, but CB shouldn’t (and won’t) be the focus right now.
.......
Yes it should. If it isn’t next season will be exactly the same as this one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We’ll only get so far playing the “we’ll score more than you” game. This was also a part of Liverpool’s evolution, it was VVD and Allison that transformed them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True, but Liverpool's front 6 was both deadlier in attack and better at defending as a team than ours is when they made those defensive acquisitions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Disagree, like our defense it was individual errors costing them. I believe with a deeper squad, keeping the front 6 fresher (able to press for longer periods) and better individuals, we'd defend just fine.
The stats speak for themselves, we look at our defense and think it's poor, but the stats say otherwise.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with that, which is why I was disputing the idea that upgrading our central defence would be as transformational to our team as bringing in VVD was to Liverpool's. Obviously, it would be a massive boost to have a player of his quality next to Maguire but for me if we can only spend big on one position this summer, a world class right sided forwarded would be the priority. Sancho would improve the first XI and at the same time expand the variety and quality of options we have on the bench.
posted on 30/7/20
"There are very few games where I can say we have looked defensively sound."
Think we can all agree here. But with a better DM and CB, I do believe we'd look more sound.
Most of our issues stem from individual errors in my opinion.
posted on 30/7/20
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 48 seconds ago
I think our defensive stats look better than they are because of the quality of striker we mostly come up against.
It would be interesting to see where we are in the stats of chances misses against us. There are very few games where I can say we have looked defensively sound. Even in games we have walked.
Don’t get me wrong, we are not bad but the stats say we are better than we really look. Take the recent Southampton game. They looked like they would score in every attack for the last half an hour. I bet there wasn’t a single person on the match thread that didn’t see the equalizer coming.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know where you're coming from but over a season it's unlikely we've faced worse attacks / strikers on average in worse form than anyone else. Relative to other teams, we haven't done at all badly in terms of goals conceded.
posted on 30/7/20
i was just idly looking at the two halves of last season's premier league.
in the first 19 games of the season we took 28 points, in the second 19 38 points. and with bruno coming in, pogba/rashford returning from injury, the rise of greenwood, a PL record for consecutive 3-goal victories, you would assume our improvement in the 2nd half of the season was entirely driven by scoring more goals.
yet in the first half we scored 30 and conceded 23; in the second half we scored 36 and conceded just 13 (second to city, who shipped 12).
so i think my conclusion was that, even with the big guns fit, scoring goals is still more of a concern than conceding them. and given that we spent £130mish on the defence last year (over 60% of our total spending), i doubt we'll be committing much to it this summer.
posted on 30/7/20
We concede fewer goals than Liverpool were in their ‘we’ll score more than you’ game. We score fewer as well. We aren’t playing that same game they were.
I think it’s pointless comparing ourselves with what Liverpool did anyway. They’re a bit of an anomaly.
Although one comparison could be made in saying that waiting for the right player, and opportunity, to raise the level of the defence might be a sensible approach for us to take.
There isn’t a VVD and Allison available for us to sign right now. So it’s pointless bringing it up. There are, however, some good attackers and midfielders that can help raise the quality of this team.
posted on 30/7/20
It’s a shame shaw isn’t a bit taller, reckon he’d make a better centre back than a fullback. Pace, decent tackler.
posted on 30/7/20
comment by Don Draper's dandruff (U20155)
posted 9 minutes ago
i was just idly looking at the two halves of last season's premier league.
in the first 19 games of the season we took 28 points, in the second 19 38 points. and with bruno coming in, pogba/rashford returning from injury, the rise of greenwood, a PL record for consecutive 3-goal victories, you would assume our improvement in the 2nd half of the season was entirely driven by scoring more goals.
yet in the first half we scored 30 and conceded 23; in the second half we scored 36 and conceded just 13 (second to city, who shipped 12).
so i think my conclusion was that, even with the big guns fit, scoring goals is still more of a concern than conceding them. and given that we spent £130mish on the defence last year (over 60% of our total spending), i doubt we'll be committing much to it this summer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really interesting stats. I suspect that our greater attacking potency in the second half of the season can take some credit for our improved defensive stats. We've been dominating games more, pressing better and of course teams are less likely to commit players forward the more frightened they are that we can hurt them on the counter.
posted on 30/7/20
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 19 minutes ago
I think our defensive stats look better than they are because of the quality of striker we mostly come up against.
It would be interesting to see where we are in the stats of chances misses against us. There are very few games where I can say we have looked defensively sound. Even in games we have walked.
Don’t get me wrong, we are not bad but the stats say we are better than we really look. Take the recent Southampton game. They looked like they would score in every attack for the last half an hour. I bet there wasn’t a single person on the match thread that didn’t see the equalizer coming.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Expected goals against (which considers the context of all chances racked up against the side, both taken and otherwise) would see us still with the third meanest defence in the league over the season, and actually a better one than Liverpool’s.
posted on 30/7/20
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Don Draper's dandruff (U20155)
posted 9 minutes ago
i was just idly looking at the two halves of last season's premier league.
in the first 19 games of the season we took 28 points, in the second 19 38 points. and with bruno coming in, pogba/rashford returning from injury, the rise of greenwood, a PL record for consecutive 3-goal victories, you would assume our improvement in the 2nd half of the season was entirely driven by scoring more goals.
yet in the first half we scored 30 and conceded 23; in the second half we scored 36 and conceded just 13 (second to city, who shipped 12).
so i think my conclusion was that, even with the big guns fit, scoring goals is still more of a concern than conceding them. and given that we spent £130mish on the defence last year (over 60% of our total spending), i doubt we'll be committing much to it this summer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really interesting stats. I suspect that our greater attacking potency in the second half of the season can take some credit for our improved defensive stats. We've been dominating games more, pressing better and of course teams are less likely to commit players forward the more frightened they are that we can hurt them on the counter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, also this.
I don’t see the need to focus on the defence when it is already more or less as successful as any other in the league, unlike our attack.
posted on 30/7/20
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really interesting stats. I suspect that our greater attacking potency in the second half of the season can take some credit for our improved defensive stats. We've been dominating games more, pressing better and of course teams are less likely to commit players forward the more frightened they are that we can hurt them on the counter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was surprised in all honesty.
But yes, sorting the midfield out, being able to field 3-4-5 potent attackers, rather than the 1-2 we struggled with in the first half of the year, keeping the ball better and being more aggressive off it, have all helped the defence out (the back 4 obviously became more familiar with each other too, i seem to remember maguire missing all of our pre-season training because he joined so late).
And as Darren says, if there are no obvious defenders out there for us to buy, but there are obvious attackers out there, let's go for the latter, and we can always make the former as and when they become available.
Personally I think that our defenders are just about good enough to win the league, as is our front five, but I have serious doubts about Matic - over 38 games at least - and zero doubt that our squad players are simply not good enough.
posted on 30/7/20
It’s actually quite a positive sign that people are arguing about where it’s most important for us to be making incremental improvements.
In previous years we could see that we had massive and critical issues in the centre of the park, then at CB, then up top, etc.
Until recently the obvious gaping hole was at RW. Now Greenwood’s emergence has even calmed that, at the very least.
It’s nice to be talking about improving the squad rather than obvious issues with the preferred XI
posted on 30/7/20
Coming from behind and killing games off has been an issue due to our lack of quality in attack. This has been evident every season since Fergie retired.
Bar last season, the amount of goals we concede hasn’t been a huge problem compared to most of our rivals - even compared to many of our title winning teams. The amount we score, however, has generally been a problem.
posted on 30/7/20
Bearing in mind we have general agreement that scoring more goals is a bigger priority than conceding fewer, and bearing in mind that the improvements in Rashford and Martial, the emergence of Greenwood, the depth provided by Ighalo make striking options look much less of a concern than this time last summer... when thinking about incremental improvements and potential weaknesses, are we one ankle breaking lunge on Fernandes away from losing the ability to get the ball quickly to our front three?
I'd still prioritise Sancho, because greater dynamism on the right wing can balance out a more workmanlike midfield (see LFC). But the huge difference Bruno has made makes you anxious about how reliant we are on him.
posted on 30/7/20
That’s why I think we’ll be after Grealish. Issue may be Villa pricing him unreasonably high. But then there’s been interest in VDB as well. Could be a cheaper alternative and can cover Pogba’s role in central midfield as well.
posted on 30/7/20
VDB = DVB, right?
posted on 30/7/20
Yes, but think VDS or VDV more than RVN or RVP.
posted on 31/7/20
Not sure if it was mentioned in the Lindelöf debate yesterday but turns out he's the least dribbled past player among all defenders and midfielders in the PL (averaging 0.1 times per game).
https://www.football365.com/news/premier-league-numbers-and-stats-best-worst-lindelof-alexander-arnold-kepa
posted on 31/7/20
I saw that. There’d be loads of articles on here about it if we were Liverpool fans.
posted on 31/7/20
comment by Imran The King Khan (U10026)
posted 48 minutes ago
I saw that. There’d be loads of articles on here about it if we were Liverpool fans.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
VVD (or is that DVD) averaged 0.2 per game. That's scientific proof of what we all suspected all along: Lindelöf is twice as good as Van Dijk.
posted on 31/7/20
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Imran The King Khan (U10026)
posted 48 minutes ago
I saw that. There’d be loads of articles on here about it if we were Liverpool fans.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
VVD (or is that DVD) averaged 0.2 per game. That's scientific proof of what we all suspected all along: Lindelöf is twice as good as Van Dijk.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why are you making stuff up to make VVD look bad? We all know that he has never ever been dribbled past in the whole history of the universe.
posted on 31/7/20
Yeah I’m with Elvis on this.
posted on 2/8/20
Another name in the rumours this morning: Monaco's Benoît Badiashile.
I don't know him but, given the kind of consensus that we could upgrade but it's not top priority, buying a young player with a potentially very high ceiling while clearing out the older back-up players with lower ceilings looks a decent strategy to me.
posted on 2/8/20
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 6 minutes ago
Another name in the rumours this morning: Monaco's Benoît Badiashile.
I don't know him but, given the kind of consensus that we could upgrade but it's not top priority, buying a young player with a potentially very high ceiling while clearing out the older back-up players with lower ceilings looks a decent strategy to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know nothing about the lad other than he looks like one hardass muthafacka.
posted on 2/8/20
comment by rosso is done with this (U17054)
posted 1 hour, 13 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 6 minutes ago
Another name in the rumours this morning: Monaco's Benoît Badiashile.
I don't know him but, given the kind of consensus that we could upgrade but it's not top priority, buying a young player with a potentially very high ceiling while clearing out the older back-up players with lower ceilings looks a decent strategy to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know nothing about the lad other than he looks like one hardass muthafacka.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Always appreciate your cogent analysis, rosso
posted on 2/8/20
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by rosso is done with this (U17054)
posted 1 hour, 13 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 6 minutes ago
Another name in the rumours this morning: Monaco's Benoît Badiashile.
I don't know him but, given the kind of consensus that we could upgrade but it's not top priority, buying a young player with a potentially very high ceiling while clearing out the older back-up players with lower ceilings looks a decent strategy to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know nothing about the lad other than he looks like one hardass muthafacka.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Always appreciate your cogent analysis, rosso
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Word
Page 4 of 4