comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 25 minutes ago
I thought he resisted initially anyways, it was clear with the first coverage he was refusing to leave his vehicle.
If he was off his head that may explain why
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If he was suffering from anxiety and mental issues as reported, it could also explain why.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
if being the the big question there. The autopsy revealed a potentially lethal concoction of drugs — not just a potentially lethal dose of fentanyl, but also methamphetamine.
That is more likely to explain his state at the time and also the foaming at the mouth.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes but they also claimed the autopsy showed he died due to drugs and not asphyxiation, which the opposing side state is incorrect. Therefore we can't go by what was claimed. It wouldn't be the first coverup.
We'll find out when it's put through court.
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf---Wolves-4th best side in the country---VAR 'not so fast'!! (U11551)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ban Wissaka (U5318)
posted 9 minutes ago
The question is if this was a white dude in the exact same situation, would the officers have acted differently? Would they have had more compassion when some said I can't breathe and would they have tried to help him rather than go to the most extreme option they had which was to pile on top of him, restrain him and pressure down on his neck? Most likely if GF was white they would have taken a very different approach first.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And none of this will be relevant in a court of law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not relevant at all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not centrally to the criminal case it isn’t, no.
comment by rosso - for your protection, we’ve insta... (U17054)
posted 24 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf---Wolves-4th best side in the country---VAR 'not so fast'!! (U11551)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ban Wissaka (U5318)
posted 9 minutes ago
The question is if this was a white dude in the exact same situation, would the officers have acted differently? Would they have had more compassion when some said I can't breathe and would they have tried to help him rather than go to the most extreme option they had which was to pile on top of him, restrain him and pressure down on his neck? Most likely if GF was white they would have taken a very different approach first.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And none of this will be relevant in a court of law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not relevant at all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not centrally to the criminal case it isn’t, no.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmm I don't know. I could explain motive, if they can find anything in his background to say this was his motivation.
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 25 minutes ago
I thought he resisted initially anyways, it was clear with the first coverage he was refusing to leave his vehicle.
If he was off his head that may explain why
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If he was suffering from anxiety and mental issues as reported, it could also explain why.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
if being the the big question there. The autopsy revealed a potentially lethal concoction of drugs — not just a potentially lethal dose of fentanyl, but also methamphetamine.
That is more likely to explain his state at the time and also the foaming at the mouth.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes but they also claimed the autopsy showed he died due to drugs and not asphyxiation, which the opposing side state is incorrect. Therefore we can't go by what was claimed. It wouldn't be the first coverup.
We'll find out when it's put through court.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I'll go with the pathologist and blood results for now
comment by rosso - for your protection, we’ve installed this camera (U17054)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf---Wolves-4th best side in the country---VAR 'not so fast'!! (U11551)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ban Wissaka (U5318)
posted 9 minutes ago
The question is if this was a white dude in the exact same situation, would the officers have acted differently? Would they have had more compassion when some said I can't breathe and would they have tried to help him rather than go to the most extreme option they had which was to pile on top of him, restrain him and pressure down on his neck? Most likely if GF was white they would have taken a very different approach first.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And none of this will be relevant in a court of law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not relevant at all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not centrally to the criminal case it isn’t, no.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True but my point was more than the same things happen to white people and it doesn’t really have anything to do with race. Hence why I suggested that Ban Wissaka google Tim Timpa and watch that video.
It’s evil people/errors in judgement/awful police procedures
It’s not a bunch of racist cops just doing this to black men and not doing the same to white men.
This particularly empowered dude, supposedly employed to Serve and Protect, unapologetically and determinedly knelt on the neck of a man who repeatedly told him that he couldn’t breathe until that man was dead.
Motivation shouldn’t even really come into it for me. (Although, yes, I am aware that it must under US law.)
Plot twist - he officially died of Coronavirus cos he had it back in January, so that's what they put on his death certificate.
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by rosso - for your protection, we’ve installed this camera (U17054)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf---Wolves-4th best side in the country---VAR 'not so fast'!! (U11551)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ban Wissaka (U5318)
posted 9 minutes ago
The question is if this was a white dude in the exact same situation, would the officers have acted differently? Would they have had more compassion when some said I can't breathe and would they have tried to help him rather than go to the most extreme option they had which was to pile on top of him, restrain him and pressure down on his neck? Most likely if GF was white they would have taken a very different approach first.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And none of this will be relevant in a court of law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not relevant at all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not centrally to the criminal case it isn’t, no.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True but my point was more than the same things happen to white people and it doesn’t really have anything to do with race. Hence why I suggested that Ban Wissaka google Tim Timpa and watch that video.
It’s evil people/errors in judgement/awful police procedures
It’s not a bunch of racist cops just doing this to black men and not doing the same to white men.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Continue the discussion with others by all means, but I’m not getting into that on this thread.
The criminal case (and I mean very specifically the criminal case) and the social ramifications of George Floyd’s killing are separable discussion points for me.
All I will say here is that regardless of the motives or actions of the police officers in this particular case, there is an absolute wealth of evidence - an overwhelmingly persuasive amount of evidence as far as I am concerned - that the US (and of course it is not alone) has very serious problems with structural racism, which extends to institutional racism across areas of its internal policing.
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by rosso - for your protection, we’ve installed this camera (U17054)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf---Wolves-4th best side in the country---VAR 'not so fast'!! (U11551)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ban Wissaka (U5318)
posted 9 minutes ago
The question is if this was a white dude in the exact same situation, would the officers have acted differently? Would they have had more compassion when some said I can't breathe and would they have tried to help him rather than go to the most extreme option they had which was to pile on top of him, restrain him and pressure down on his neck? Most likely if GF was white they would have taken a very different approach first.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And none of this will be relevant in a court of law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not relevant at all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not centrally to the criminal case it isn’t, no.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True but my point was more than the same things happen to white people and it doesn’t really have anything to do with race. Hence why I suggested that Ban Wissaka google Tim Timpa and watch that video.
It’s evil people/errors in judgement/awful police procedures
It’s not a bunch of racist cops just doing this to black men and not doing the same to white men.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not recent to the criminal case but the social unrest. Yes there is a big issue around police culture, tactics, militarisation and no accountability. The entire system needs ds an overhaul. But even with that, there is still institutionalised racism across the police and a lot of US society which needs to be addressed. Right from the beginnings of the 20th century the public and private institutions were weighted against people of colour which created a domino effect on a cess to housing, districts, local tax, schools, jobs etc. People want change, reform and an equal playing field.
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 25 minutes ago
I thought he resisted initially anyways, it was clear with the first coverage he was refusing to leave his vehicle.
If he was off his head that may explain why
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If he was suffering from anxiety and mental issues as reported, it could also explain why.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
if being the the big question there. The autopsy revealed a potentially lethal concoction of drugs — not just a potentially lethal dose of fentanyl, but also methamphetamine.
That is more likely to explain his state at the time and also the foaming at the mouth.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes but they also claimed the autopsy showed he died due to drugs and not asphyxiation, which the opposing side state is incorrect. Therefore we can't go by what was claimed. It wouldn't be the first coverup.
We'll find out when it's put through court.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I'll go with the pathologist and blood results for now
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes - you can go with the defences pathologist if you like. I'll wait until they scrutinise it in court and supply evidence, since the oppositions pathologist hired by the family found asphyxiation to be the cause of death. Since I'm not a pathologist and haven't studied the evidence, I'll wait for the court to decide based on the evidence.
comment by rosso - for your protection, we’ve installed this camera (U17054)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by rosso - for your protection, we’ve installed this camera (U17054)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf---Wolves-4th best side in the country---VAR 'not so fast'!! (U11551)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ban Wissaka (U5318)
posted 9 minutes ago
The question is if this was a white dude in the exact same situation, would the officers have acted differently? Would they have had more compassion when some said I can't breathe and would they have tried to help him rather than go to the most extreme option they had which was to pile on top of him, restrain him and pressure down on his neck? Most likely if GF was white they would have taken a very different approach first.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And none of this will be relevant in a court of law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not relevant at all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not centrally to the criminal case it isn’t, no.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True but my point was more than the same things happen to white people and it doesn’t really have anything to do with race. Hence why I suggested that Ban Wissaka google Tim Timpa and watch that video.
It’s evil people/errors in judgement/awful police procedures
It’s not a bunch of racist cops just doing this to black men and not doing the same to white men.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Continue the discussion with others by all means, but I’m not getting into that on this thread.
The criminal case (and I mean very specifically the criminal case) and the social ramifications of George Floyd’s killing are separable discussion points for me.
All I will say here is that regardless of the motives or actions of the police officers in this particular case, there is an absolute wealth of evidence - an overwhelmingly persuasive amount of evidence as far as I am concerned - that the US (and of course it is not alone) has very serious problems with structural racism, which extends to institutional racism across areas of its internal policing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wasn’t going to get into all that but BW asked a question and I wanted to show him that the same happens to white men also.
There are two issues in the States. One is militarisation of police: military style training and equipment, and the fact that this attracts a certain type of character to join the police. If pointing guns at people makes you feel powerful, you might well consider signing up. (Contrast that with the UK police tradition, imperfect though it is, of 'policing by consent' and you get a slightly different cross section of personality types signing up over here.)
There is a second issue: racism. There's probably a small fringe of overtly white supremacist individuals serving as US police officers. We know of infiltration of groups such as the Proud Boys, and among the disturbing videos of the recent events I saw one instance of a policeman flashing white supremacist gestures to his fellow officers, grinning and neither expecting nor receiving any negative feedback. But there's also insidious unconscious racism, whereby black people look inherently dodgy to police (to most people) and on average tend to be approached differently, with different split-second risk assessments. Whichever way you want to frame the comparative 'who gets killed by police most' stats, it takes a lot of effort to ignore the evidence that these deeply embedded preconceptions exist in society or assume that most police officers are immune to them.
Obviously, the combination of the two issues makes the whole picture all the more tragic.
Strange how post Brexit, people on here will now only take the word of academically qualified experts.
comment by Ban Wissaka (U5318)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by rosso - for your protection, we’ve installed this camera (U17054)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf---Wolves-4th best side in the country---VAR 'not so fast'!! (U11551)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ban Wissaka (U5318)
posted 9 minutes ago
The question is if this was a white dude in the exact same situation, would the officers have acted differently? Would they have had more compassion when some said I can't breathe and would they have tried to help him rather than go to the most extreme option they had which was to pile on top of him, restrain him and pressure down on his neck? Most likely if GF was white they would have taken a very different approach first.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And none of this will be relevant in a court of law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not relevant at all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not centrally to the criminal case it isn’t, no.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True but my point was more than the same things happen to white people and it doesn’t really have anything to do with race. Hence why I suggested that Ban Wissaka google Tim Timpa and watch that video.
It’s evil people/errors in judgement/awful police procedures
It’s not a bunch of racist cops just doing this to black men and not doing the same to white men.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not recent to the criminal case but the social unrest. Yes there is a big issue around police culture, tactics, militarisation and no accountability. The entire system needs ds an overhaul. But even with that, there is still institutionalised racism across the police and a lot of US society which needs to be addressed. Right from the beginnings of the 20th century the public and private institutions were weighted against people of colour which created a domino effect on a cess to housing, districts, local tax, schools, jobs etc. People want change, reform and an equal playing field.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Like Rosso I’m not getting into all of that here, was just demonstrating that the exact same incident happened to a white man. Almost identical
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 25 minutes ago
I thought he resisted initially anyways, it was clear with the first coverage he was refusing to leave his vehicle.
If he was off his head that may explain why
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If he was suffering from anxiety and mental issues as reported, it could also explain why.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
if being the the big question there. The autopsy revealed a potentially lethal concoction of drugs — not just a potentially lethal dose of fentanyl, but also methamphetamine.
That is more likely to explain his state at the time and also the foaming at the mouth.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes but they also claimed the autopsy showed he died due to drugs and not asphyxiation, which the opposing side state is incorrect. Therefore we can't go by what was claimed. It wouldn't be the first coverup.
We'll find out when it's put through court.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I'll go with the pathologist and blood results for now
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes - you can go with the defences pathologist if you like. I'll wait until they scrutinise it in court and supply evidence, since the oppositions pathologist hired by the family found asphyxiation to be the cause of death. Since I'm not a pathologist and haven't studied the evidence, I'll wait for the court to decide based on the evidence.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
There are two issues in the States. One is militarisation of police: military style training and equipment, and the fact that this attracts a certain type of character to join the police. If pointing guns at people makes you feel powerful, you might well consider signing up. (Contrast that with the UK police tradition, imperfect though it is, of 'policing by consent' and you get a slightly different cross section of personality types signing up over here.)
There is a second issue: racism. There's probably a small fringe of overtly white supremacist individuals serving as US police officers. We know of infiltration of groups such as the Proud Boys, and among the disturbing videos of the recent events I saw one instance of a policeman flashing white supremacist gestures to his fellow officers, grinning and neither expecting nor receiving any negative feedback. But there's also insidious unconscious racism, whereby black people look inherently dodgy to police (to most people) and on average tend to be approached differently, with different split-second risk assessments. Whichever way you want to frame the comparative 'who gets killed by police most' stats, it takes a lot of effort to ignore the evidence that these deeply embedded preconceptions exist in society or assume that most police officers are immune to them.
Obviously, the combination of the two issues makes the whole picture all the more tragic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would add a third - guns.
Guns being so prevalent automatically escalates these encounters for both cops and citizens.
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
There are two issues in the States. One is militarisation of police: military style training and equipment, and the fact that this attracts a certain type of character to join the police. If pointing guns at people makes you feel powerful, you might well consider signing up. (Contrast that with the UK police tradition, imperfect though it is, of 'policing by consent' and you get a slightly different cross section of personality types signing up over here.)
There is a second issue: racism. There's probably a small fringe of overtly white supremacist individuals serving as US police officers. We know of infiltration of groups such as the Proud Boys, and among the disturbing videos of the recent events I saw one instance of a policeman flashing white supremacist gestures to his fellow officers, grinning and neither expecting nor receiving any negative feedback. But there's also insidious unconscious racism, whereby black people look inherently dodgy to police (to most people) and on average tend to be approached differently, with different split-second risk assessments. Whichever way you want to frame the comparative 'who gets killed by police most' stats, it takes a lot of effort to ignore the evidence that these deeply embedded preconceptions exist in society or assume that most police officers are immune to them.
Obviously, the combination of the two issues makes the whole picture all the more tragic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would add a third - guns.
Guns being so prevalent automatically escalates these encounters for both cops and citizens.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Cops go into every situation believing guns are present. Therefore take a 'safety first' approach.
comment by RB&W (U21434)
posted 5 minutes ago
Strange how post Brexit, people on here will now only take the word of academically qualified experts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is amazing how folks fluctuate between using medical advice as gospel and completely disregarding it when it suits
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 7 minutes ago
There are two issues in the States. One is militarisation of police: military style training and equipment, and the fact that this attracts a certain type of character to join the police. If pointing guns at people makes you feel powerful, you might well consider signing up. (Contrast that with the UK police tradition, imperfect though it is, of 'policing by consent' and you get a slightly different cross section of personality types signing up over here.)
There is a second issue: racism. There's probably a small fringe of overtly white supremacist individuals serving as US police officers. We know of infiltration of groups such as the Proud Boys, and among the disturbing videos of the recent events I saw one instance of a policeman flashing white supremacist gestures to his fellow officers, grinning and neither expecting nor receiving any negative feedback. But there's also insidious unconscious racism, whereby black people look inherently dodgy to police (to most people) and on average tend to be approached differently, with different split-second risk assessments. Whichever way you want to frame the comparative 'who gets killed by police most' stats, it takes a lot of effort to ignore the evidence that these deeply embedded preconceptions exist in society or assume that most police officers are immune to them.
Obviously, the combination of the two issues makes the whole picture all the more tragic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for this 👍 i agree
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 59 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
There are two issues in the States. One is militarisation of police: military style training and equipment, and the fact that this attracts a certain type of character to join the police. If pointing guns at people makes you feel powerful, you might well consider signing up. (Contrast that with the UK police tradition, imperfect though it is, of 'policing by consent' and you get a slightly different cross section of personality types signing up over here.)
There is a second issue: racism. There's probably a small fringe of overtly white supremacist individuals serving as US police officers. We know of infiltration of groups such as the Proud Boys, and among the disturbing videos of the recent events I saw one instance of a policeman flashing white supremacist gestures to his fellow officers, grinning and neither expecting nor receiving any negative feedback. But there's also insidious unconscious racism, whereby black people look inherently dodgy to police (to most people) and on average tend to be approached differently, with different split-second risk assessments. Whichever way you want to frame the comparative 'who gets killed by police most' stats, it takes a lot of effort to ignore the evidence that these deeply embedded preconceptions exist in society or assume that most police officers are immune to them.
Obviously, the combination of the two issues makes the whole picture all the more tragic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would add a third - guns.
Guns being so prevalent automatically escalates these encounters for both cops and citizens.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Cops go into every situation believing guns are present. Therefore take a 'safety first' approach.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yup and the citizens also go into the encounter fearing that they’re going to be the next victim of a police shooting.
There was a video I posted on the politics thread of a debate between 6 normal people debating BLM vs police supporters essentially and one of them was a female cop and one thing she said that I found quite illuminating is that when they do a stop and approach a car they make a point to put their hand on the car so that if they got shot and killed, it would be easier to link the car to the shooting.
It’s completely mad out there and I think guns are the biggest stimulant to these types of incidents & fear etc.
comment by Cinciwolf---Wolves-4th best side in the country---VAR 'not so fast'!! (U11551)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by RB&W (U21434)
posted 5 minutes ago
Strange how post Brexit, people on here will now only take the word of academically qualified experts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is amazing how folks fluctuate between using medical advice as gospel and completely disregarding it when it suits
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yep that does amuse me too
Exactly. Cops go into every situation believing guns are present. Therefore take a 'safety first' approach.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I do find it very strange that a certain kind of American ideology happily applies the precautionary approach around shooting to kill when the possibility that a citizen may be dangerous, but demands almost impossible burdens of evidence when a risk of infection or environmental damage impinges on economic or personal freedoms. So you have cases such as a little child shot while playing with a toy gun and apparently fully grown men losing their sheet about Dunkin Donuts asking them to wear a mask for the protection of their staff and customers.
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a poster and a little bit more. (U22336)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf---Wolves-4th best side in the country---VAR 'not so fast'!! (U11551)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by RB&W (U21434)
posted 5 minutes ago
Strange how post Brexit, people on here will now only take the word of academically qualified experts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is amazing how folks fluctuate between using medical advice as gospel and completely disregarding it when it suits
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yep that does amuse me too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So are you saying we should or shouldn't inject ourselves with bleach? I need clarification, for a friend. Who is injecting me.
Sign in if you want to comment
Get ready for riots if this is true
Page 4 of 15
6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10
posted on 4/8/20
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 25 minutes ago
I thought he resisted initially anyways, it was clear with the first coverage he was refusing to leave his vehicle.
If he was off his head that may explain why
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If he was suffering from anxiety and mental issues as reported, it could also explain why.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
if being the the big question there. The autopsy revealed a potentially lethal concoction of drugs — not just a potentially lethal dose of fentanyl, but also methamphetamine.
That is more likely to explain his state at the time and also the foaming at the mouth.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes but they also claimed the autopsy showed he died due to drugs and not asphyxiation, which the opposing side state is incorrect. Therefore we can't go by what was claimed. It wouldn't be the first coverup.
We'll find out when it's put through court.
posted on 4/8/20
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf---Wolves-4th best side in the country---VAR 'not so fast'!! (U11551)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ban Wissaka (U5318)
posted 9 minutes ago
The question is if this was a white dude in the exact same situation, would the officers have acted differently? Would they have had more compassion when some said I can't breathe and would they have tried to help him rather than go to the most extreme option they had which was to pile on top of him, restrain him and pressure down on his neck? Most likely if GF was white they would have taken a very different approach first.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And none of this will be relevant in a court of law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not relevant at all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not centrally to the criminal case it isn’t, no.
posted on 4/8/20
comment by rosso - for your protection, we’ve insta... (U17054)
posted 24 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf---Wolves-4th best side in the country---VAR 'not so fast'!! (U11551)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ban Wissaka (U5318)
posted 9 minutes ago
The question is if this was a white dude in the exact same situation, would the officers have acted differently? Would they have had more compassion when some said I can't breathe and would they have tried to help him rather than go to the most extreme option they had which was to pile on top of him, restrain him and pressure down on his neck? Most likely if GF was white they would have taken a very different approach first.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And none of this will be relevant in a court of law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not relevant at all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not centrally to the criminal case it isn’t, no.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmm I don't know. I could explain motive, if they can find anything in his background to say this was his motivation.
posted on 4/8/20
It*
posted on 4/8/20
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 25 minutes ago
I thought he resisted initially anyways, it was clear with the first coverage he was refusing to leave his vehicle.
If he was off his head that may explain why
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If he was suffering from anxiety and mental issues as reported, it could also explain why.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
if being the the big question there. The autopsy revealed a potentially lethal concoction of drugs — not just a potentially lethal dose of fentanyl, but also methamphetamine.
That is more likely to explain his state at the time and also the foaming at the mouth.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes but they also claimed the autopsy showed he died due to drugs and not asphyxiation, which the opposing side state is incorrect. Therefore we can't go by what was claimed. It wouldn't be the first coverup.
We'll find out when it's put through court.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I'll go with the pathologist and blood results for now
posted on 4/8/20
comment by rosso - for your protection, we’ve installed this camera (U17054)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf---Wolves-4th best side in the country---VAR 'not so fast'!! (U11551)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ban Wissaka (U5318)
posted 9 minutes ago
The question is if this was a white dude in the exact same situation, would the officers have acted differently? Would they have had more compassion when some said I can't breathe and would they have tried to help him rather than go to the most extreme option they had which was to pile on top of him, restrain him and pressure down on his neck? Most likely if GF was white they would have taken a very different approach first.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And none of this will be relevant in a court of law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not relevant at all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not centrally to the criminal case it isn’t, no.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True but my point was more than the same things happen to white people and it doesn’t really have anything to do with race. Hence why I suggested that Ban Wissaka google Tim Timpa and watch that video.
It’s evil people/errors in judgement/awful police procedures
It’s not a bunch of racist cops just doing this to black men and not doing the same to white men.
posted on 4/8/20
This particularly empowered dude, supposedly employed to Serve and Protect, unapologetically and determinedly knelt on the neck of a man who repeatedly told him that he couldn’t breathe until that man was dead.
Motivation shouldn’t even really come into it for me. (Although, yes, I am aware that it must under US law.)
posted on 4/8/20
Plot twist - he officially died of Coronavirus cos he had it back in January, so that's what they put on his death certificate.
posted on 4/8/20
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by rosso - for your protection, we’ve installed this camera (U17054)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf---Wolves-4th best side in the country---VAR 'not so fast'!! (U11551)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ban Wissaka (U5318)
posted 9 minutes ago
The question is if this was a white dude in the exact same situation, would the officers have acted differently? Would they have had more compassion when some said I can't breathe and would they have tried to help him rather than go to the most extreme option they had which was to pile on top of him, restrain him and pressure down on his neck? Most likely if GF was white they would have taken a very different approach first.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And none of this will be relevant in a court of law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not relevant at all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not centrally to the criminal case it isn’t, no.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True but my point was more than the same things happen to white people and it doesn’t really have anything to do with race. Hence why I suggested that Ban Wissaka google Tim Timpa and watch that video.
It’s evil people/errors in judgement/awful police procedures
It’s not a bunch of racist cops just doing this to black men and not doing the same to white men.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Continue the discussion with others by all means, but I’m not getting into that on this thread.
The criminal case (and I mean very specifically the criminal case) and the social ramifications of George Floyd’s killing are separable discussion points for me.
All I will say here is that regardless of the motives or actions of the police officers in this particular case, there is an absolute wealth of evidence - an overwhelmingly persuasive amount of evidence as far as I am concerned - that the US (and of course it is not alone) has very serious problems with structural racism, which extends to institutional racism across areas of its internal policing.
posted on 4/8/20
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by rosso - for your protection, we’ve installed this camera (U17054)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf---Wolves-4th best side in the country---VAR 'not so fast'!! (U11551)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ban Wissaka (U5318)
posted 9 minutes ago
The question is if this was a white dude in the exact same situation, would the officers have acted differently? Would they have had more compassion when some said I can't breathe and would they have tried to help him rather than go to the most extreme option they had which was to pile on top of him, restrain him and pressure down on his neck? Most likely if GF was white they would have taken a very different approach first.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And none of this will be relevant in a court of law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not relevant at all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not centrally to the criminal case it isn’t, no.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True but my point was more than the same things happen to white people and it doesn’t really have anything to do with race. Hence why I suggested that Ban Wissaka google Tim Timpa and watch that video.
It’s evil people/errors in judgement/awful police procedures
It’s not a bunch of racist cops just doing this to black men and not doing the same to white men.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not recent to the criminal case but the social unrest. Yes there is a big issue around police culture, tactics, militarisation and no accountability. The entire system needs ds an overhaul. But even with that, there is still institutionalised racism across the police and a lot of US society which needs to be addressed. Right from the beginnings of the 20th century the public and private institutions were weighted against people of colour which created a domino effect on a cess to housing, districts, local tax, schools, jobs etc. People want change, reform and an equal playing field.
posted on 4/8/20
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 25 minutes ago
I thought he resisted initially anyways, it was clear with the first coverage he was refusing to leave his vehicle.
If he was off his head that may explain why
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If he was suffering from anxiety and mental issues as reported, it could also explain why.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
if being the the big question there. The autopsy revealed a potentially lethal concoction of drugs — not just a potentially lethal dose of fentanyl, but also methamphetamine.
That is more likely to explain his state at the time and also the foaming at the mouth.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes but they also claimed the autopsy showed he died due to drugs and not asphyxiation, which the opposing side state is incorrect. Therefore we can't go by what was claimed. It wouldn't be the first coverup.
We'll find out when it's put through court.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I'll go with the pathologist and blood results for now
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes - you can go with the defences pathologist if you like. I'll wait until they scrutinise it in court and supply evidence, since the oppositions pathologist hired by the family found asphyxiation to be the cause of death. Since I'm not a pathologist and haven't studied the evidence, I'll wait for the court to decide based on the evidence.
posted on 4/8/20
comment by rosso - for your protection, we’ve installed this camera (U17054)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by rosso - for your protection, we’ve installed this camera (U17054)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf---Wolves-4th best side in the country---VAR 'not so fast'!! (U11551)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ban Wissaka (U5318)
posted 9 minutes ago
The question is if this was a white dude in the exact same situation, would the officers have acted differently? Would they have had more compassion when some said I can't breathe and would they have tried to help him rather than go to the most extreme option they had which was to pile on top of him, restrain him and pressure down on his neck? Most likely if GF was white they would have taken a very different approach first.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And none of this will be relevant in a court of law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not relevant at all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not centrally to the criminal case it isn’t, no.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True but my point was more than the same things happen to white people and it doesn’t really have anything to do with race. Hence why I suggested that Ban Wissaka google Tim Timpa and watch that video.
It’s evil people/errors in judgement/awful police procedures
It’s not a bunch of racist cops just doing this to black men and not doing the same to white men.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Continue the discussion with others by all means, but I’m not getting into that on this thread.
The criminal case (and I mean very specifically the criminal case) and the social ramifications of George Floyd’s killing are separable discussion points for me.
All I will say here is that regardless of the motives or actions of the police officers in this particular case, there is an absolute wealth of evidence - an overwhelmingly persuasive amount of evidence as far as I am concerned - that the US (and of course it is not alone) has very serious problems with structural racism, which extends to institutional racism across areas of its internal policing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wasn’t going to get into all that but BW asked a question and I wanted to show him that the same happens to white men also.
posted on 4/8/20
There are two issues in the States. One is militarisation of police: military style training and equipment, and the fact that this attracts a certain type of character to join the police. If pointing guns at people makes you feel powerful, you might well consider signing up. (Contrast that with the UK police tradition, imperfect though it is, of 'policing by consent' and you get a slightly different cross section of personality types signing up over here.)
There is a second issue: racism. There's probably a small fringe of overtly white supremacist individuals serving as US police officers. We know of infiltration of groups such as the Proud Boys, and among the disturbing videos of the recent events I saw one instance of a policeman flashing white supremacist gestures to his fellow officers, grinning and neither expecting nor receiving any negative feedback. But there's also insidious unconscious racism, whereby black people look inherently dodgy to police (to most people) and on average tend to be approached differently, with different split-second risk assessments. Whichever way you want to frame the comparative 'who gets killed by police most' stats, it takes a lot of effort to ignore the evidence that these deeply embedded preconceptions exist in society or assume that most police officers are immune to them.
Obviously, the combination of the two issues makes the whole picture all the more tragic.
posted on 4/8/20
Strange how post Brexit, people on here will now only take the word of academically qualified experts.
posted on 4/8/20
comment by Ban Wissaka (U5318)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by rosso - for your protection, we’ve installed this camera (U17054)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf---Wolves-4th best side in the country---VAR 'not so fast'!! (U11551)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Ban Wissaka (U5318)
posted 9 minutes ago
The question is if this was a white dude in the exact same situation, would the officers have acted differently? Would they have had more compassion when some said I can't breathe and would they have tried to help him rather than go to the most extreme option they had which was to pile on top of him, restrain him and pressure down on his neck? Most likely if GF was white they would have taken a very different approach first.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And none of this will be relevant in a court of law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s not relevant at all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not centrally to the criminal case it isn’t, no.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True but my point was more than the same things happen to white people and it doesn’t really have anything to do with race. Hence why I suggested that Ban Wissaka google Tim Timpa and watch that video.
It’s evil people/errors in judgement/awful police procedures
It’s not a bunch of racist cops just doing this to black men and not doing the same to white men.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not recent to the criminal case but the social unrest. Yes there is a big issue around police culture, tactics, militarisation and no accountability. The entire system needs ds an overhaul. But even with that, there is still institutionalised racism across the police and a lot of US society which needs to be addressed. Right from the beginnings of the 20th century the public and private institutions were weighted against people of colour which created a domino effect on a cess to housing, districts, local tax, schools, jobs etc. People want change, reform and an equal playing field.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Like Rosso I’m not getting into all of that here, was just demonstrating that the exact same incident happened to a white man. Almost identical
posted on 4/8/20
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a po... (U22336)
posted 25 minutes ago
I thought he resisted initially anyways, it was clear with the first coverage he was refusing to leave his vehicle.
If he was off his head that may explain why
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If he was suffering from anxiety and mental issues as reported, it could also explain why.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
if being the the big question there. The autopsy revealed a potentially lethal concoction of drugs — not just a potentially lethal dose of fentanyl, but also methamphetamine.
That is more likely to explain his state at the time and also the foaming at the mouth.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes but they also claimed the autopsy showed he died due to drugs and not asphyxiation, which the opposing side state is incorrect. Therefore we can't go by what was claimed. It wouldn't be the first coverup.
We'll find out when it's put through court.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I'll go with the pathologist and blood results for now
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes - you can go with the defences pathologist if you like. I'll wait until they scrutinise it in court and supply evidence, since the oppositions pathologist hired by the family found asphyxiation to be the cause of death. Since I'm not a pathologist and haven't studied the evidence, I'll wait for the court to decide based on the evidence.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 4/8/20
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
There are two issues in the States. One is militarisation of police: military style training and equipment, and the fact that this attracts a certain type of character to join the police. If pointing guns at people makes you feel powerful, you might well consider signing up. (Contrast that with the UK police tradition, imperfect though it is, of 'policing by consent' and you get a slightly different cross section of personality types signing up over here.)
There is a second issue: racism. There's probably a small fringe of overtly white supremacist individuals serving as US police officers. We know of infiltration of groups such as the Proud Boys, and among the disturbing videos of the recent events I saw one instance of a policeman flashing white supremacist gestures to his fellow officers, grinning and neither expecting nor receiving any negative feedback. But there's also insidious unconscious racism, whereby black people look inherently dodgy to police (to most people) and on average tend to be approached differently, with different split-second risk assessments. Whichever way you want to frame the comparative 'who gets killed by police most' stats, it takes a lot of effort to ignore the evidence that these deeply embedded preconceptions exist in society or assume that most police officers are immune to them.
Obviously, the combination of the two issues makes the whole picture all the more tragic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would add a third - guns.
Guns being so prevalent automatically escalates these encounters for both cops and citizens.
posted on 4/8/20
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
There are two issues in the States. One is militarisation of police: military style training and equipment, and the fact that this attracts a certain type of character to join the police. If pointing guns at people makes you feel powerful, you might well consider signing up. (Contrast that with the UK police tradition, imperfect though it is, of 'policing by consent' and you get a slightly different cross section of personality types signing up over here.)
There is a second issue: racism. There's probably a small fringe of overtly white supremacist individuals serving as US police officers. We know of infiltration of groups such as the Proud Boys, and among the disturbing videos of the recent events I saw one instance of a policeman flashing white supremacist gestures to his fellow officers, grinning and neither expecting nor receiving any negative feedback. But there's also insidious unconscious racism, whereby black people look inherently dodgy to police (to most people) and on average tend to be approached differently, with different split-second risk assessments. Whichever way you want to frame the comparative 'who gets killed by police most' stats, it takes a lot of effort to ignore the evidence that these deeply embedded preconceptions exist in society or assume that most police officers are immune to them.
Obviously, the combination of the two issues makes the whole picture all the more tragic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would add a third - guns.
Guns being so prevalent automatically escalates these encounters for both cops and citizens.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Cops go into every situation believing guns are present. Therefore take a 'safety first' approach.
posted on 4/8/20
comment by RB&W (U21434)
posted 5 minutes ago
Strange how post Brexit, people on here will now only take the word of academically qualified experts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is amazing how folks fluctuate between using medical advice as gospel and completely disregarding it when it suits
posted on 4/8/20
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 7 minutes ago
There are two issues in the States. One is militarisation of police: military style training and equipment, and the fact that this attracts a certain type of character to join the police. If pointing guns at people makes you feel powerful, you might well consider signing up. (Contrast that with the UK police tradition, imperfect though it is, of 'policing by consent' and you get a slightly different cross section of personality types signing up over here.)
There is a second issue: racism. There's probably a small fringe of overtly white supremacist individuals serving as US police officers. We know of infiltration of groups such as the Proud Boys, and among the disturbing videos of the recent events I saw one instance of a policeman flashing white supremacist gestures to his fellow officers, grinning and neither expecting nor receiving any negative feedback. But there's also insidious unconscious racism, whereby black people look inherently dodgy to police (to most people) and on average tend to be approached differently, with different split-second risk assessments. Whichever way you want to frame the comparative 'who gets killed by police most' stats, it takes a lot of effort to ignore the evidence that these deeply embedded preconceptions exist in society or assume that most police officers are immune to them.
Obviously, the combination of the two issues makes the whole picture all the more tragic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for this 👍 i agree
posted on 4/8/20
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 59 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 2 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
There are two issues in the States. One is militarisation of police: military style training and equipment, and the fact that this attracts a certain type of character to join the police. If pointing guns at people makes you feel powerful, you might well consider signing up. (Contrast that with the UK police tradition, imperfect though it is, of 'policing by consent' and you get a slightly different cross section of personality types signing up over here.)
There is a second issue: racism. There's probably a small fringe of overtly white supremacist individuals serving as US police officers. We know of infiltration of groups such as the Proud Boys, and among the disturbing videos of the recent events I saw one instance of a policeman flashing white supremacist gestures to his fellow officers, grinning and neither expecting nor receiving any negative feedback. But there's also insidious unconscious racism, whereby black people look inherently dodgy to police (to most people) and on average tend to be approached differently, with different split-second risk assessments. Whichever way you want to frame the comparative 'who gets killed by police most' stats, it takes a lot of effort to ignore the evidence that these deeply embedded preconceptions exist in society or assume that most police officers are immune to them.
Obviously, the combination of the two issues makes the whole picture all the more tragic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would add a third - guns.
Guns being so prevalent automatically escalates these encounters for both cops and citizens.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Cops go into every situation believing guns are present. Therefore take a 'safety first' approach.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yup and the citizens also go into the encounter fearing that they’re going to be the next victim of a police shooting.
There was a video I posted on the politics thread of a debate between 6 normal people debating BLM vs police supporters essentially and one of them was a female cop and one thing she said that I found quite illuminating is that when they do a stop and approach a car they make a point to put their hand on the car so that if they got shot and killed, it would be easier to link the car to the shooting.
It’s completely mad out there and I think guns are the biggest stimulant to these types of incidents & fear etc.
posted on 4/8/20
comment by Cinciwolf---Wolves-4th best side in the country---VAR 'not so fast'!! (U11551)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by RB&W (U21434)
posted 5 minutes ago
Strange how post Brexit, people on here will now only take the word of academically qualified experts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is amazing how folks fluctuate between using medical advice as gospel and completely disregarding it when it suits
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yep that does amuse me too
posted on 4/8/20
Exactly. Cops go into every situation believing guns are present. Therefore take a 'safety first' approach.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I do find it very strange that a certain kind of American ideology happily applies the precautionary approach around shooting to kill when the possibility that a citizen may be dangerous, but demands almost impossible burdens of evidence when a risk of infection or environmental damage impinges on economic or personal freedoms. So you have cases such as a little child shot while playing with a toy gun and apparently fully grown men losing their sheet about Dunkin Donuts asking them to wear a mask for the protection of their staff and customers.
posted on 4/8/20
comment by *Prankster 20/20 everything you want from a poster and a little bit more. (U22336)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf---Wolves-4th best side in the country---VAR 'not so fast'!! (U11551)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by RB&W (U21434)
posted 5 minutes ago
Strange how post Brexit, people on here will now only take the word of academically qualified experts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is amazing how folks fluctuate between using medical advice as gospel and completely disregarding it when it suits
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yep that does amuse me too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So are you saying we should or shouldn't inject ourselves with bleach? I need clarification, for a friend. Who is injecting me.
posted on 4/8/20
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