comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 38 seconds ago
Alf Ramsey, took Ipswich from the forth to the first division with no star players.
I think this part of your theory is nonsense.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're talking about a particular case, I'm talking about a possible tendency in modern football. Hardly the same thing.

comment by Reason-Not-the-Need (U4135)
posted 29 seconds ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 38 seconds ago
Alf Ramsey, took Ipswich from the forth to the first division with no star players.
I think this part of your theory is nonsense.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're talking about a particular case, I'm talking about a possible tendency in modern football. Hardly the same thing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But you have now been provided with 4 separate examples of this happening over 4 separate era's.

How much more proof do you actually need?

How about Sean Dyche, or the guy at Sheffield United.

comment by Clockwork Red (U4892)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Reason-Not-the-Need (U4135)
posted 29 seconds ago
comment by Dunne was under Unger and I was over Dunne (U6037)
posted 45 seconds ago
comment by Reason-Not-the-Need (U4135)
posted 9 seconds ago
comment by manusince52
Have you not heard of 'The Fergie Years' or 'The Shankley Era'?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not talking about a manager dominating his era as Sir Alex did. I'm talking about an era in which the managers occupy the foreground of the game. We maybe heading towards that era.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's just words with no meaning to, unless you can explain the difference between the foreground of the game, and what position SAF occupied.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I think what he's saying - and it might not be a bad point - is that we might be about to enter an era where certain managers are the first people you think of when you think about football. Not Maradona, or Bryan Robson, or Cantona, Henry, Rooney or Messi and Ronaldo, but Guardiola and Klopp (for now), forming a battle at the very top like Federer, Nadal and Djokovic in tennis.

Not saying I absolutely agree, but I think that's what he's saying. And he's obviously saying he thinks Solskjaer won't be able to cut it against those managerial megastars.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's exactly what I mean, and I see this as a possibility, not as a historical necessity bound to happen.

I'm talking about a possible tendency in modern football.

.....

Possible being the flaw in your post.

Rosso,

Nice post going through the details of our play, although I think Reason is looking more for what the underlying philosophy behind it is.

Also it's no secret we struggle against lesser teams we're expected to attack that press us, resulting in match thread comments like "we're making them look like prime Barca" and the like. Why do you think this is, and what's a possible solution?

Why do you think this is, and what's a possible solution?

.......

This really is down to how much sway you think our posters who comment on match threads have.

Personally I more often than not think that people are watching a completely different game to me on the match threads. They are reactive to one instant completely forgetting an instant five minutes before.

The solution. Don’t go on the match thread during the game but flick through it for amusement later.

comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 12 minutes ago
Rosso,

Nice post going through the details of our play, although I think Reason is looking more for what the underlying philosophy behind it is.

Also it's no secret we struggle against lesser teams we're expected to attack that press us, resulting in match thread comments like "we're making them look like prime Barca" and the like. Why do you think this is, and what's a possible solution?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it’s something Ole has worked on and I can see two plans we’ve used against it under different conditions.

Firstly, there are the teams that come and press us hard up the pitch, then retreat, as we do, when we don’t give the ball up in our own third and form those well-martialled low defensive blocks we struggled with under successive managers.

Those teams I honestly don’t see as being as big a problem now, because we’re much better at patiently beating the high press, and when we do, we’re then better placed to use either the space between their lines or their defensive high line (one of which necessarily has to exist) to deliver a quick transition and create opportunities, either playing between the lines (in the first case) or by unleashing the likes of Rashford and Martial in behind (in the second case). This is exactly why Ole can seem to be, in certain circumstances, absolutely unbending in the insistence on playing out from the back: Maguire, to Lindelof, to Maguire, to DDG, to Pogba, to AWB, to Lindelof, to Pogba... Looks dangerous, but when we get out, we have four or five of their players in our defensive third and we’ve created an excellent opportunity to launch what is effectively a counter attack (without suffering the attack first).

I think the smarter managers will default to setting up against us the way we used to set up against the top teams under Mourinho: forget about the high press when you lose the ball; just slow the transition to get organised, then get compact, be patient, conserve energy, and just look for the opportunity to nick the ball and counter.

The decision is starting to look like a tough one for opposition managers though because go for the plan A (targeted, zonal high press) and we‘ve demonstrated that we can play through and launch quick attacks unleashing our lightening quick forwards against a then unprotected defence.

But go for the plan B and we’ve equally demonstrated that between Pogba, Bruno, Martial and Greenwood we have the craft to conjure opportunities against the best organised of low blocks with quick interplay and quick feet.

That’s what most exciting about what’s going on right now. We’ve shown that we can beat the best (the 3-4-1-2, which we haven’t talked about here yet has been very useful in doing that), and regardless of the approach, we can beat the rest by playing through the press *or* unpicking the lock.

comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 8 minutes ago
Why do you think this is, and what's a possible solution?

.......

This really is down to how much sway you think our posters who comment on match threads have.

Personally I more often than not think that people are watching a completely different game to me on the match threads. They are reactive to one instant completely forgetting an instant five minutes before.

The solution. Don’t go on the match thread during the game but flick through it for amusement later.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was just using that to emphasise the scenario of us making certain teams look better than they are. That's the footballing solution i was looking for.

As for the match thread, some do get quite dramatic. Nothing to be taken too seriously on it.

comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 21 minutes ago
Why do you think this is, and what's a possible solution?

.......

This really is down to how much sway you think our posters who comment on match threads have.

Personally I more often than not think that people are watching a completely different game to me on the match threads. They are reactive to one instant completely forgetting an instant five minutes before.

The solution. Don’t go on the match thread during the game but flick through it for amusement later.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kind of reminds me about those who hang off every word said on Twitter then moan when they are wrong.

Solution: don’t go on/believe everything on Twitter

So it seems to crux of it all is that it's not about style, system, formation etc etc... He's just upset that Ole isn't at the level of Klopp/Pep

comment by rosso - for your protection, we’ve installed this camera (U17054)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 12 minutes ago
Rosso,

Nice post going through the details of our play, although I think Reason is looking more for what the underlying philosophy behind it is.

Also it's no secret we struggle against lesser teams we're expected to attack that press us, resulting in match thread comments like "we're making them look like prime Barca" and the like. Why do you think this is, and what's a possible solution?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it’s something Ole has worked on and I can see two plans we’ve used against it under different conditions.

Firstly, there are the teams that come and press us hard up the pitch, then retreat, as we do, when we don’t give the ball up in our own third and form those well-martialled low defensive blocks we struggled with under successive managers.

Those teams I honestly don’t see as being as big a problem now, because we’re much better at patiently beating the high press, and when we do, we’re then better placed to use either the space between their lines or their defensive high line (one of which necessarily has to exist) to deliver a quick transition and create opportunities, either playing between the lines (in the first case) or by unleashing the likes of Rashford and Martial in behind (in the second case). This is exactly why Ole can seem to be, in certain circumstances, absolutely unbending in the insistence on playing out from the back: Maguire, to Lindelof, to Maguire, to DDG, to Pogba, to AWB, to Lindelof, to Pogba... Looks dangerous, but when we get out, we have four or five of their players in our defensive third and we’ve created an excellent opportunity to launch what is effectively a counter attack (without suffering the attack first).

I think the smarter managers will default to setting up against us the way we used to set up against the top teams under Mourinho: forget about the high press when you lose the ball; just slow the transition to get organised, then get compact, be patient, conserve energy, and just look for the opportunity to nick the ball and counter.

The decision is starting to look like a tough one for opposition managers though because go for the plan A (targeted, zonal high press) and we‘ve demonstrated that we can play through and launch quick attacks unleashing our lightening quick forwards against a then unprotected defence.

But go for the plan B and we’ve equally demonstrated that between Pogba, Bruno, Martial and Greenwood we have the craft to conjure opportunities against the best organised of low blocks with quick interplay and quick feet.

That’s what most exciting about what’s going on right now. We’ve shown that we can beat the best (the 3-4-1-2, which we haven’t talked about here yet has been very useful in doing that), and regardless of the approach, we can beat the rest by playing through the press *or* unpicking the lock.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, when we pass through the press, an attack is usually on. But we still lose the ball too often when hurried. You'll probably say it's worth it for the chances created, but we still need improving on this. The players need to ingrain the patterns of each other's movement.

Another thing is our defensive system. We seem to sit off certain teams, giving their midfielders space to pass it; Southampton, west ham, Chelsea come to mind. The double pivot maybe making it hard to close down their deep midfielders, as we have Bruno vs their two defensive midfielders, instead of 2 v 2 with a single pivot?

Anyway, how do you see things going tactically against Sevilla?

As for the match thread, some do get quite dramatic. Nothing to be taken too seriously on it.

......

To be fair you come across like mixed cretins at the actual games.

“Like minded’.

N2

We can - and do need to - improve the playing out from the back, even if we are now, I think at least, much, much better at it than we were.

I don’t know enough about how Sevilla are playing right now to comment, tbh.

Cannot bloody wait though! Even with the lack of atmosphere in the ground and without even being in the pub, the business end of European competition never fails to rid me of my fingernails!

Alright Rosso, looks like you've done enough writing for today.

I don't know much about them either. I suspect they'll be good technically, might control parts of the game, but we always have the firepower upfront to trouble anyone.

So a classic robb special.