I’m always arguing for patience but even after a night’s sleep there are lots of alarm bells still ringing after yesterday. Rooney’s body language and demeanour as captain is really worrying. Is it fitness, has he got a bit bored of playing or has he fallen out with Cocu? Is Cocu forced to play him because of the 32Red deal?
We lacked presence all over the pitch. Flimsy and uncertain at centre half, slow in midfield with or without the ball, no desire at centre forward to get involved in the play or to show for the ball. Little desire to close down the opposition anywhere on the pitch.
There are mitigating circumstances with missing players but unless things improve dramatically and quickly the younger players’ heads will go down. They are starting to look like boys playing against men - too easily knocked off the ball and not affecting the play. Bird has gone from looking like the polished finished article to a little boy lost in a big man’s shirt.
Supposedly we are to bring in a striker early this week which is essential whoever we have as manager. A bit of physicality up front ought to make a big difference as it will allow longer balls to be made on occasions and will make other teams less confident about swarming all over us in our own half. At present we don’t have the long ball as an option at any time. Then there needs to be energy in midfield. And there needs to be solidity at centre half. It’s far too early to pass judgment on Te Wierek but boy is he struggling. If he and Clarke are the manager’s first choice pairing then surely they need games together and not one being left on the bench.
The worst thing is, the players don’t look as though they have faith in the way they are being asked to play. I don’t think Cocu has long to sort it out but if he goes I Hope Mel does not turn to Rooney.
I think Rooney is very disillusioned with Cocu
When he sees him playing left sided players on the right.
right sided players on the left.
Senior players let go for free.
Bringing in children from the academy who’d would normally come in occasionally for injuries etc, and telling them all that they have to spend 85% of there time in their own half passing sideways, backwards, and back to the keeper is the way to play football.
That’s destroying their ability to play how it should be played.
Surely that’s not the way he has played in all his career
Dutch = total football.
Cocu = total crap.
Hmm. Last season there were the reasonable excuses of late change of manager/loss of key loanees/ car crash etc. etc.
Also, the understanding was that Mel would curb his apparent usual impatience and give Cocu time to develop the Academy prospects.
A year on and we don't seem to have direction and the Rooney coup has seemingly stalled.
Troubling times indeed..........
Time will tell whether I'm wrong - but I have faith in Cocu. I thought that with the players we have out we'd struggle at the start of the season - and of course we have . Surely we're over this give 'em a season and if it don't work sack 'em philosophy - because that doesn't work either - does it.... How many Managers have Forest and Derby had between them over the last few years - and where are the teams currently ???? Get Warnock in - some would say.... Let's see....
So many factors at play.
Cocu’s biggest worry, job security wise, is the fact his best 11 won’t be available in time to save him.
If he loses the next two, which is likely, Mel may pull the trigger.
Lawrence, Waghorn, Beilik and Ibe are a couple of weeks away from a game let alone getting back to full match fitness.
The kids are burnt out with the extra heavy lifting put upon them and Rooney is not at it either.
Martin’s replacement, whoever that is, is yet to materialise.
Having said that Cocu has brought some really promising kids through and as we saw last season when played in a more mature team they can excel.
Things are on a knife edge. A result in the next couple of games will buy Cocu time but like I said if those results go against us then the Dutchman will be checking to see if he has to quarantine for a couple of weeks once he gets back to Eindhoven.
If he pulls the trigger we'll end up with McClaren again. Make of that what you will.
Does anyone know if Marriott was injured when he came off for Evans at half time, because we played the second half 3-0 down without a recognised striker.
We might as well play with 4 full backs and 6 central defenders, for what its worth. does he really know anything.
No wonder he got sacked from Fenerbahce after a few weeks.
God help us.
Marriott was not injured.
We didn't look very good last season until just before lockdown when we appeared to be getting our act together. Now we have gone backwards. Just as well we got rid of Martin, look how Bristol City are struggling.
If Cocu’s remit is to get high earners off the books and make space for the kids then he is doing that. At the moment they look as though they will be plying their trade in the league below. Terry Hennessy is a wise chap so I’m hoping he’s right about it all.
I always thought Cocu's first remit was to build a team that could win. His transfer dealings have been just as successful as many of his predecessors. Mr tW doesn't look to be an improvement on what we had before. Last season £10M spaffed against the wall for Bielik. His man management is also up to question with the half time substitution of Evans for Marriott. I don't think it is premature to think that maybe Cocu isn't particularly good at this football team management malarkey.
Concerning times when even your solid Pro Cocu fans are waivering in support.
Performance indicates players are not buying into him, however same time we have a defender returning from stab injuries , a central defender still looking to find his way at this level. A right back looking to gel with a team low on confidence and a left back position that's as strong as jelly defensively since possibly Gareth Roberts played there.
Central midfield has been my concern, I wasn't a fan of Rooney signing, it was more of a commercial, marketing signing than one to help the squad this season. Yes he'll be good for the youth players as seen with Bird's performances but we need pace, power, aggression, hunger in those positions and Rooney lacks some of those qualities now which is why we're over run.
I'm sure no one is unaware we have a massive injury crisis but few seem to be taking this into consideration.
We need our better attacking options to cause opposition issues and currently lack that.
It's not great, I don't see it improving much in the next couple of games unless we have everyone back fit. Best I think we can hope for in the next two games is a 1-1 draw.
We're still three players short + those injured to make a decent side that Cocu should be judged on.
..............................Marshall.................
Byrne.......Wisdom..........Clarke.........New LB poss Obita
..................Bielik.................Rooney/ Van Ginkel
Jozwiak.................... Lawrence.................Ibe..........
............................Marco Van Basten esque CF...........
We need a better creative mid, alternative option to Rooney and I'd love Van Ginkel to join on loan , already familiar with Cocu's style, a captain, has a strong injury record ( a la Obita) so fits our recruitment strategy.
That leaves for a powerful CF to hold up the ball so that our wingers can join the attack.
On a separate note, I can not believe some Derby fans want a Bradley Johnson type at the club. Unfortunately he was inconsistent, his best form came with contract expiring.
Playing a reserve squad at present, with certain players playing below par.
No kids at all in that team Desi! Morris is on record as saying the target is almost half the team being made up of Academy graduates. It’s a target rather than a demand but even so he will be expecting to see a few in the team.
Of those currently in and around the squad:
Buchanan: looks good driving forward, suspect defensively. Might see him going out on loan if Obita signs but personally I would stick with him.
Knight: bags of energy but no “X” factor. Maybe destined to be a willing sub
Sibley: some talent there and an eye for goal but how best to use him? A bit of a luxury player. Could compete with Lawrence for the number 10 position and see if he develops into a first choice if he can bulk up a bit
Bird: stalling at the moment but looks classy. Maybe with a more forceful partner like Bielik he will shine. I still have high hopes for him.
Whittaker: has improved a lot this season but light years away from, say, Brereton yesterday in that position. A squad player at best unless he can get a bit of strength into his game
Hector-Ingram: not ready to feature.
Marshall
Byrne TW (got to give him a chance) Clarke Buchanan
Bielik Bird
Jozwiak Lawrence Ibe
Drogba
Where is this idea that Bielik is going to improve the team coming from. His contribution of last season included goals 0, assists 0, injured during the warm up. If we are relying on Bielik to kickstart our season then we may as well prepare to be playing Burton.
It’s just hope Spart not expectation. I thought he showed glimpses last season of being the right sort of player we need. As you say we can’t rely on him, he will have been out for such a long time he’s hardly likely to be up to speed for a while. I was thinking more long-term what the team might look like when everybody is fit, should that ever happen.
Some good points raised.
It feels like pre season and football without fans seems like training.
Motivation I think seems to be the problem. A similar team to this tore Stoke apart and looked to be hitting form.
I don't think we have the personnel to play anti football either and think it's the equivalent of footballing suicide if you do, it has a glass ceiling.
It's not rocket science what Cocu wants us to do. Creating space when with the ball denying it when without. Psychology does seem amiss.
Man U fans used to always moan at Rooney's fitness early on in the season. I do think Sibley and Bird need a rest though. We haven't seen Knight in central midfield yet where I think he could offer more.
I would want some answers though as an owner, about the plan and why we're not hitting those targets currently. I'm not reaching for the panic button but also not reaching for the aubergine emoji either.
comment by 2 Wellies (U6713)
posted 5 hours, 39 minutes ago
Some good points raised.
It feels like pre season and football without fans seems like training.
Motivation I think seems to be the problem. A similar team to this tore Stoke apart and looked to be hitting form.
I don't think we have the personnel to play anti football either and think it's the equivalent of footballing suicide if you do, it has a glass ceiling.
It's not rocket science what Cocu wants us to do. Creating space when with the ball denying it when without. Psychology does seem amiss.
Man U fans used to always moan at Rooney's fitness early on in the season. I do think Sibley and Bird need a rest though. We haven't seen Knight in central midfield yet where I think he could offer more.
I would want some answers though as an owner, about the plan and why we're not hitting those targets currently. I'm not reaching for the panic button but also not reaching for the aubergine emoji either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do think we'll learn more about this team from how they react to Saturday*s defeat, than from Saturday.
Fitness for me seems a huge worry. Are we over or under training?
Not training at all from I can make out. Someone should suggest it as it could be key!
Sounds like a good idea Heb.
The weekend showed that having possession is only any good if you have a striker who can put the ball in the net. We weren't the only team on the wrong end of hammering despite having most of the ball. Man City without Aguero and Wolves without Jota looked similarly toothless. Rapid transition from defence to attack is the key. That doesn't mean a long ball but the midfielders and pacey players breaking out of defence as fast as possible. Of course a decent defence is a necessity as well.
Johnathon Simpson Snedden Russell would come to mind. 🏴🇺🇸🏴
comment by HebridesRam (U2909)
posted 30 minutes ago
Johnathon Simpson Snedden Russell would come to mind. 🏴🇺🇸🏴
----------------------------------------------------------------------
With a name like that he should have been opening the innings for Middlesex.
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posted on 27/9/20
I’m always arguing for patience but even after a night’s sleep there are lots of alarm bells still ringing after yesterday. Rooney’s body language and demeanour as captain is really worrying. Is it fitness, has he got a bit bored of playing or has he fallen out with Cocu? Is Cocu forced to play him because of the 32Red deal?
We lacked presence all over the pitch. Flimsy and uncertain at centre half, slow in midfield with or without the ball, no desire at centre forward to get involved in the play or to show for the ball. Little desire to close down the opposition anywhere on the pitch.
There are mitigating circumstances with missing players but unless things improve dramatically and quickly the younger players’ heads will go down. They are starting to look like boys playing against men - too easily knocked off the ball and not affecting the play. Bird has gone from looking like the polished finished article to a little boy lost in a big man’s shirt.
Supposedly we are to bring in a striker early this week which is essential whoever we have as manager. A bit of physicality up front ought to make a big difference as it will allow longer balls to be made on occasions and will make other teams less confident about swarming all over us in our own half. At present we don’t have the long ball as an option at any time. Then there needs to be energy in midfield. And there needs to be solidity at centre half. It’s far too early to pass judgment on Te Wierek but boy is he struggling. If he and Clarke are the manager’s first choice pairing then surely they need games together and not one being left on the bench.
The worst thing is, the players don’t look as though they have faith in the way they are being asked to play. I don’t think Cocu has long to sort it out but if he goes I Hope Mel does not turn to Rooney.
posted on 27/9/20
I think Rooney is very disillusioned with Cocu
When he sees him playing left sided players on the right.
right sided players on the left.
Senior players let go for free.
Bringing in children from the academy who’d would normally come in occasionally for injuries etc, and telling them all that they have to spend 85% of there time in their own half passing sideways, backwards, and back to the keeper is the way to play football.
That’s destroying their ability to play how it should be played.
Surely that’s not the way he has played in all his career
Dutch = total football.
Cocu = total crap.
posted on 27/9/20
Hmm. Last season there were the reasonable excuses of late change of manager/loss of key loanees/ car crash etc. etc.
Also, the understanding was that Mel would curb his apparent usual impatience and give Cocu time to develop the Academy prospects.
A year on and we don't seem to have direction and the Rooney coup has seemingly stalled.
Troubling times indeed..........
posted on 27/9/20
Time will tell whether I'm wrong - but I have faith in Cocu. I thought that with the players we have out we'd struggle at the start of the season - and of course we have . Surely we're over this give 'em a season and if it don't work sack 'em philosophy - because that doesn't work either - does it.... How many Managers have Forest and Derby had between them over the last few years - and where are the teams currently ???? Get Warnock in - some would say.... Let's see....
posted on 27/9/20
So many factors at play.
Cocu’s biggest worry, job security wise, is the fact his best 11 won’t be available in time to save him.
If he loses the next two, which is likely, Mel may pull the trigger.
Lawrence, Waghorn, Beilik and Ibe are a couple of weeks away from a game let alone getting back to full match fitness.
The kids are burnt out with the extra heavy lifting put upon them and Rooney is not at it either.
Martin’s replacement, whoever that is, is yet to materialise.
Having said that Cocu has brought some really promising kids through and as we saw last season when played in a more mature team they can excel.
Things are on a knife edge. A result in the next couple of games will buy Cocu time but like I said if those results go against us then the Dutchman will be checking to see if he has to quarantine for a couple of weeks once he gets back to Eindhoven.
posted on 27/9/20
If he pulls the trigger we'll end up with McClaren again. Make of that what you will.
posted on 27/9/20
Does anyone know if Marriott was injured when he came off for Evans at half time, because we played the second half 3-0 down without a recognised striker.
We might as well play with 4 full backs and 6 central defenders, for what its worth. does he really know anything.
No wonder he got sacked from Fenerbahce after a few weeks.
God help us.
posted on 27/9/20
Marriott was not injured.
posted on 27/9/20
We didn't look very good last season until just before lockdown when we appeared to be getting our act together. Now we have gone backwards. Just as well we got rid of Martin, look how Bristol City are struggling.
posted on 27/9/20
If Cocu’s remit is to get high earners off the books and make space for the kids then he is doing that. At the moment they look as though they will be plying their trade in the league below. Terry Hennessy is a wise chap so I’m hoping he’s right about it all.
posted on 27/9/20
I always thought Cocu's first remit was to build a team that could win. His transfer dealings have been just as successful as many of his predecessors. Mr tW doesn't look to be an improvement on what we had before. Last season £10M spaffed against the wall for Bielik. His man management is also up to question with the half time substitution of Evans for Marriott. I don't think it is premature to think that maybe Cocu isn't particularly good at this football team management malarkey.
posted on 27/9/20
Concerning times when even your solid Pro Cocu fans are waivering in support.
Performance indicates players are not buying into him, however same time we have a defender returning from stab injuries , a central defender still looking to find his way at this level. A right back looking to gel with a team low on confidence and a left back position that's as strong as jelly defensively since possibly Gareth Roberts played there.
Central midfield has been my concern, I wasn't a fan of Rooney signing, it was more of a commercial, marketing signing than one to help the squad this season. Yes he'll be good for the youth players as seen with Bird's performances but we need pace, power, aggression, hunger in those positions and Rooney lacks some of those qualities now which is why we're over run.
I'm sure no one is unaware we have a massive injury crisis but few seem to be taking this into consideration.
We need our better attacking options to cause opposition issues and currently lack that.
It's not great, I don't see it improving much in the next couple of games unless we have everyone back fit. Best I think we can hope for in the next two games is a 1-1 draw.
We're still three players short + those injured to make a decent side that Cocu should be judged on.
..............................Marshall.................
Byrne.......Wisdom..........Clarke.........New LB poss Obita
..................Bielik.................Rooney/ Van Ginkel
Jozwiak.................... Lawrence.................Ibe..........
............................Marco Van Basten esque CF...........
We need a better creative mid, alternative option to Rooney and I'd love Van Ginkel to join on loan , already familiar with Cocu's style, a captain, has a strong injury record ( a la Obita) so fits our recruitment strategy.
That leaves for a powerful CF to hold up the ball so that our wingers can join the attack.
On a separate note, I can not believe some Derby fans want a Bradley Johnson type at the club. Unfortunately he was inconsistent, his best form came with contract expiring.
Playing a reserve squad at present, with certain players playing below par.
posted on 27/9/20
No kids at all in that team Desi! Morris is on record as saying the target is almost half the team being made up of Academy graduates. It’s a target rather than a demand but even so he will be expecting to see a few in the team.
Of those currently in and around the squad:
Buchanan: looks good driving forward, suspect defensively. Might see him going out on loan if Obita signs but personally I would stick with him.
Knight: bags of energy but no “X” factor. Maybe destined to be a willing sub
Sibley: some talent there and an eye for goal but how best to use him? A bit of a luxury player. Could compete with Lawrence for the number 10 position and see if he develops into a first choice if he can bulk up a bit
Bird: stalling at the moment but looks classy. Maybe with a more forceful partner like Bielik he will shine. I still have high hopes for him.
Whittaker: has improved a lot this season but light years away from, say, Brereton yesterday in that position. A squad player at best unless he can get a bit of strength into his game
Hector-Ingram: not ready to feature.
Marshall
Byrne TW (got to give him a chance) Clarke Buchanan
Bielik Bird
Jozwiak Lawrence Ibe
Drogba
posted on 27/9/20
Where is this idea that Bielik is going to improve the team coming from. His contribution of last season included goals 0, assists 0, injured during the warm up. If we are relying on Bielik to kickstart our season then we may as well prepare to be playing Burton.
posted on 27/9/20
It’s just hope Spart not expectation. I thought he showed glimpses last season of being the right sort of player we need. As you say we can’t rely on him, he will have been out for such a long time he’s hardly likely to be up to speed for a while. I was thinking more long-term what the team might look like when everybody is fit, should that ever happen.
posted on 28/9/20
Some good points raised.
It feels like pre season and football without fans seems like training.
Motivation I think seems to be the problem. A similar team to this tore Stoke apart and looked to be hitting form.
I don't think we have the personnel to play anti football either and think it's the equivalent of footballing suicide if you do, it has a glass ceiling.
It's not rocket science what Cocu wants us to do. Creating space when with the ball denying it when without. Psychology does seem amiss.
Man U fans used to always moan at Rooney's fitness early on in the season. I do think Sibley and Bird need a rest though. We haven't seen Knight in central midfield yet where I think he could offer more.
I would want some answers though as an owner, about the plan and why we're not hitting those targets currently. I'm not reaching for the panic button but also not reaching for the aubergine emoji either.
posted on 28/9/20
comment by 2 Wellies (U6713)
posted 5 hours, 39 minutes ago
Some good points raised.
It feels like pre season and football without fans seems like training.
Motivation I think seems to be the problem. A similar team to this tore Stoke apart and looked to be hitting form.
I don't think we have the personnel to play anti football either and think it's the equivalent of footballing suicide if you do, it has a glass ceiling.
It's not rocket science what Cocu wants us to do. Creating space when with the ball denying it when without. Psychology does seem amiss.
Man U fans used to always moan at Rooney's fitness early on in the season. I do think Sibley and Bird need a rest though. We haven't seen Knight in central midfield yet where I think he could offer more.
I would want some answers though as an owner, about the plan and why we're not hitting those targets currently. I'm not reaching for the panic button but also not reaching for the aubergine emoji either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 28/9/20
Do think we'll learn more about this team from how they react to Saturday*s defeat, than from Saturday.
Fitness for me seems a huge worry. Are we over or under training?
posted on 28/9/20
Not training at all from I can make out. Someone should suggest it as it could be key!
posted on 28/9/20
Sounds like a good idea Heb.
posted on 28/9/20
The weekend showed that having possession is only any good if you have a striker who can put the ball in the net. We weren't the only team on the wrong end of hammering despite having most of the ball. Man City without Aguero and Wolves without Jota looked similarly toothless. Rapid transition from defence to attack is the key. That doesn't mean a long ball but the midfielders and pacey players breaking out of defence as fast as possible. Of course a decent defence is a necessity as well.
posted on 28/9/20
Johnathon Simpson Snedden Russell would come to mind. 🏴🇺🇸🏴
posted on 28/9/20
comment by HebridesRam (U2909)
posted 30 minutes ago
Johnathon Simpson Snedden Russell would come to mind. 🏴🇺🇸🏴
----------------------------------------------------------------------
With a name like that he should have been opening the innings for Middlesex.
Page 1 of 1