comment by Anne is ruled out on medical grounds (U8366)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 58 minutes ago
If, as it seems here, Barnes is effectively playing the black card then it does nothing to help the cause. Barnes comments sound like they come from his own personal experience (Black and English!) No one actually knows if his colour came in to any decision making process, so it would be wrong either way to assume it did or didnt.
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The fact that you call racism 'the black card' like it's a magical made up thing that black people WANT to have to highlight makes me think you have no clue what John was on about....And yeah, we all are pretty sure his colour has come into things, like many other former black players that find it ridiculously difficult to get into management.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Couldn't have put it better myself. Absolutely sickens me when you got white people who have no understanding about the black experience try say things like "race card" or "chip on your shoulder". Fack off you racist pr!cks. U want to remember war veterans and the Holocaust but whenever we talk about black issues it is trivialised into "playing the race card"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry if you dont like the use of the term "black card". It may be lazy by me but its also a widely used expression when talking about any issue - sexuality, race, religion, so there is no need to be so precious about it.
Just as a white man may not fully know the suffering of black people as they have not experienced it, then no one can also say what is in the mind of another a person when they make a decision.
On the face of it, Barnes was sacked for very obvious failings as a manager, not just once but twice, he barely lasted in his position more than half a season.
You have to ask yourself, if there is truly racism in these decisions then how did he get the chance in teh first place, especially at Celtic which was his first gig and a very prestigious role for any inexperienced manager of any colour or nationality.
He also failed at Tranmere and his record was atrocious there.
In modern terms, look at someone like Woodgate. Very similar sort of background in terms of a quality playing career and top player. He took over at Boro, did a bad job and was sacked. He also, may never get the chance to manage again. Clearly no racism in that judgement but because Barnes is black we are to assume racism played a part in his failure, and disagreeing with this is to be racist?
The reason i call it unhelpful is because in Barnes case, he was such a poor manager that his sacking is for very obvious reasons, yet his statement stornly implies racist motivations, and he hasnt supported this with anything.
This is not to deny it doesnt take place and is likely more widespread than we imagine but we cannot debate this such definitive terms - because he is black and was sacked there was racism and anyone who contests that is a racist.
JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
I know more than you, that much is clear.
Listen, the reason for societal representation is facking basic. I mean, it's entry grade level into understanding prejudices and biases, and how to overcome them.
You can either read up as to why that is and why efforts are being made to improve inclusion rates, or you can continue posting ignorant comments on a forum in the belief that you have considered every angle.
Up to you, but I'm not wasting anymore time on you.
And as we all saw last week, how the Head of the FA speaks about ethnic minorities, kinda confirms how the mentality works at the top of the game then filters downwards.
This is not to deny it doesnt take place and is likely more widespread than we imagine but we cannot debate this such definitive terms - because he is black and was sacked there was racism and anyone who contests that is a racist.
------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think anyone who contest that is racist at all. The John Barnes case as a standalone, i don't think was a racism thing. But it definitely happens, which is my main point.
Devonshirespur (U6316)
Not saying you're wrong, but what is the answer then?
We'll never definitively know, will we?
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 27 minutes ago
Devonshirespur (U6316)
So because you don't agree with Barnes, you get to use this as an example of why you wish to dismiss all legitimate complaints of prejudice?
(Not saying you, I mean figuratively speaking)
Sorry, I take real issue with that, that is not fair at all and certainly doesn't justify the ignorant comments I was replying to.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely not.
What is not helpful is the explicit statements where he is generalising. To make statements like "If he was Black or English he would have been sacked" is a massive generalisation and these are dangerous in these sorts of debates. As such i believe Barnes comments do more harm than good, and particularly where his comments are very clearly linked to his managerial career which was a clear failure for sporting reasons .
That is not to dismiss that there is widespread racism at differing degrees, whether conscious or subconscious bias, but it is dangerous to make such generalisation and start from a point of assuming that this is present in everyone and every decision. It is insulting to do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't disagree entirely but I struggle with how his comments do any harm?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because his comments are generalisations. This does not add anything positive to the debate.
Sterotypes are another form of generalisation and we all know how harmful these can be.
What Barnes is saying is that any black english manager being sacked is on the basis of non-football/unmeritted reasons. How the hell is that useful to the debate? I am a moderate person and like to think i hold no prejudices in my life (ok, i may have a problem with gooners ) and i am willing to understand more and improve myself but statements like this from Barnes do not sit well with me as they seem to come from bitterness about what happened to him as a manager.
SO in circumstances where Barnes was very clearly bad at his job, not once but twice, if this sort of accusation is made then it may make people think twice about employing someone who may throw these sort of accusations about, whether merited or not.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 27 minutes ago
Devonshirespur (U6316)
So because you don't agree with Barnes, you get to use this as an example of why you wish to dismiss all legitimate complaints of prejudice?
(Not saying you, I mean figuratively speaking)
Sorry, I take real issue with that, that is not fair at all and certainly doesn't justify the ignorant comments I was replying to.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely not.
What is not helpful is the explicit statements where he is generalising. To make statements like "If he was Black or English he would have been sacked" is a massive generalisation and these are dangerous in these sorts of debates. As such i believe Barnes comments do more harm than good, and particularly where his comments are very clearly linked to his managerial career which was a clear failure for sporting reasons .
That is not to dismiss that there is widespread racism at differing degrees, whether conscious or subconscious bias, but it is dangerous to make such generalisation and start from a point of assuming that this is present in everyone and every decision. It is insulting to do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't disagree entirely but I struggle with how his comments do any harm?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because his comments are generalisations. This does not add anything positive to the debate.
Sterotypes are another form of generalisation and we all know how harmful these can be.
What Barnes is saying is that any black english manager being sacked is on the basis of non-football/unmeritted reasons. How the hell is that useful to the debate? I am a moderate person and like to think i hold no prejudices in my life (ok, i may have a problem with gooners) and i am willing to understand more and improve myself but statements like this from Barnes do not sit well with me as they seem to come from bitterness about what happened to him as a manager.
SO in circumstances where Barnes was very clearly bad at his job, not once but twice, if this sort of accusation is made then it may make people think twice about employing someone who may throw these sort of accusations about, whether merited or not.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All these lengthy comments trying to justify racism.
Devonshirespur (U6316)
What's wrong with a generalisation?
Generally speaking, race and colour do play a part in employment and prejudice does exist.
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 41 minutes ago
Same with the assumption that black managers or coaches don't get a chance, just because there aren't that many with jobs in the EFL. Is everybody suddenly an expert on this now?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
We're not experts, and don't have to be really but history and the fact that loads of ex black footballers have all said the same thing about the difficulty of getting into football management, makes me think this is more than an assumption.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But what about other white managers that have likely applied for several jobs in god knows how many years and not got them? Just because there is a majority of white coaches and a minority black coaches, means they don't get an opportunity? Maybe they aren't putting themselves forward enough, in the belief they won't get a job, which shouldn't happen now in 2020.
Yes, you may unfortunately encounter some form of racism, as I say, a cultural change that will take generations to sort out.
The issues are getting sorted out, slowly but surely, nothing will change overnight, but I think people need to understand that there is a majority of white coaches in England, so yes, inevitably, more white coaches will get jobs than black coaches, who would believe such a thing! But apparently it's all against black people because they don't get any jobs?
Lets try another way of looking at this!..
How many managers/coaches are there in the English league?..
If anyone wants to search than answer!..
How many of those managers/coaches would you class in the same category as Klopp?..
So far so good me thinks, so, next question!..
How many none white managers/coaches are there in the English league?..
I thought not long ago English football started something of to fast track Black managers, I stand to be corrected on that one but I think they did!..
So, asking how many people would come in the same category as Klopp, people should realize, the class Klopp is in there ain't many white managers/coaches in the same class!..
% wise and how many Black managers/coaches there are, it shows that at the moment there isn't any as good as the top managers and that renders Barnes's comment as dumb!..
The races card hasn't been used here, its a case of Barnes stating a Black manager would have been sacked when it isn't true!..
The coaching/fast track approach the league has in place should get more Blacks into the game, but it will take time!..
Problem then will be to find some as good as the top people around the game that are all class managers/coaches in their own right!..
Barnes had no need to say what he said!..
This day and age clubs know the fall out if they did anything against race, but at the same time, they'll also know if a manager/coach,(of any colour!)is good enough to help them achieve what they're trying to achieve!..
Nothing more for me to say here because I'm one that thinks Barnes was playing this for himself and stuff what anyone thinks!..
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 25 minutes ago
Devonshirespur (U6316)
What's wrong with a generalisation?
Generally speaking, race and colour do play a part in employment and prejudice does exist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because this is an extremely sensitive issue, generalising has the potential to be offensive. For example if you generalise by saying Black managers are more likely to be sacked for not football related reasons (ie because of their colour) then anyone who sacks a black manager, whatever their motive, will be labelled as racist or racist motivations if such generalisations are allowed to stand unchallenged.
Generalisations such as black players are fast and powerful have been challenged by those who feel that their other attributes are being ignored and the focus is on these particular qualities...and even where such comment is well-meaning , such generalisations are considered as harmful.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 25 minutes ago
Devonshirespur (U6316)
What's wrong with a generalisation?
Generally speaking, race and colour do play a part in employment and prejudice does exist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because this is an extremely sensitive issue, generalising has the potential to be offensive. For example if you generalise by saying Black managers are more likely to be sacked for not football related reasons (ie because of their colour) then anyone who sacks a black manager, whatever their motive, will be labelled as racist or racist motivations if such generalisations are allowed to stand unchallenged.
Generalisations such as black players are fast and powerful have been challenged by those who feel that their other attributes are being ignored and the focus is on these particular qualities...and even where such comment is well-meaning , such generalisations are considered as harmful.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What happens if it's true that black managers are more likely to be sacked in a shorter space of time?
Maybe the truth makes people uncomfortable.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 25 minutes ago
Devonshirespur (U6316)
What's wrong with a generalisation?
Generally speaking, race and colour do play a part in employment and prejudice does exist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because this is an extremely sensitive issue, generalising has the potential to be offensive. For example if you generalise by saying Black managers are more likely to be sacked for not football related reasons (ie because of their colour) then anyone who sacks a black manager, whatever their motive, will be labelled as racist or racist motivations if such generalisations are allowed to stand unchallenged.
Generalisations such as black players are fast and powerful have been challenged by those who feel that their other attributes are being ignored and the focus is on these particular qualities...and even where such comment is well-meaning , such generalisations are considered as harmful.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What happens if it's true that black managers are more likely to be sacked in a shorter space of time?
Maybe the truth makes people uncomfortable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that the truth though? Or is this just an assumption.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 25 minutes ago
Devonshirespur (U6316)
What's wrong with a generalisation?
Generally speaking, race and colour do play a part in employment and prejudice does exist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because this is an extremely sensitive issue, generalising has the potential to be offensive. For example if you generalise by saying Black managers are more likely to be sacked for not football related reasons (ie because of their colour) then anyone who sacks a black manager, whatever their motive, will be labelled as racist or racist motivations if such generalisations are allowed to stand unchallenged.
Generalisations such as black players are fast and powerful have been challenged by those who feel that their other attributes are being ignored and the focus is on these particular qualities...and even where such comment is well-meaning , such generalisations are considered as harmful.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What happens if it's true that black managers are more likely to be sacked in a shorter space of time?
Maybe the truth makes people uncomfortable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What happens if owners of clubs are falsely accused of being racists due to sacking a poor manager who happens to be black.
Will they then believe it's more hassle than it's worth to hire another black person as manager,thus making any future black managers prospects less.
The issues are getting sorted out, slowly but surely, nothing will change overnight, but I think people need to understand that there is a majority of white coaches in England, so yes, inevitably, more white coaches will get jobs than black coaches, who would believe such a thing! But apparently it's all against black people because they don't get any jobs?
---'-------------------
No one is saying its going to change overnight and obviously black is the minority in England but as you just said 'they don't get ANY jobs' . The fact there are NO black managers at all in the PL, not sure about the EFL, says to me that's its deeper than the excuses u are saying.
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 second ago
The issues are getting sorted out, slowly but surely, nothing will change overnight, but I think people need to understand that there is a majority of white coaches in England, so yes, inevitably, more white coaches will get jobs than black coaches, who would believe such a thing! But apparently it's all against black people because they don't get any jobs?
---'-------------------
No one is saying its going to change overnight and obviously black is the minority in England but as you just said 'they don't get ANY jobs' . The fact there are NO black managers at all in the PL, not sure about the EFL, says to me that's its deeper than the excuses u are saying.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think you'll find the manager of Wolverhampton Wanderers is actually Black
My fault, I should have said black and English, due to that being Barnes issue.
Colemanballs (U22246)
Who has been falsely accused?
Do people on this forum not understand that it's a proven fact that minority ethnic people in Britain are discriminated against in the job market?
Why should we think that football is any different?
Open your minds up. Do some reading. Listen to people affected by it.
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 5 seconds ago
My fault, I should have said black and English, due to that being Barnes issue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So being English in the EPL is a problem as big as being black to get a managers job then....righty oh
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 5 seconds ago
My fault, I should have said black and English, due to that being Barnes issue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So being English in the EPL is a problem as big as being black to get a managers job then....righty oh
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that not what John Barnes said?
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 25 minutes ago
Devonshirespur (U6316)
What's wrong with a generalisation?
Generally speaking, race and colour do play a part in employment and prejudice does exist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because this is an extremely sensitive issue, generalising has the potential to be offensive. For example if you generalise by saying Black managers are more likely to be sacked for not football related reasons (ie because of their colour) then anyone who sacks a black manager, whatever their motive, will be labelled as racist or racist motivations if such generalisations are allowed to stand unchallenged.
Generalisations such as black players are fast and powerful have been challenged by those who feel that their other attributes are being ignored and the focus is on these particular qualities...and even where such comment is well-meaning , such generalisations are considered as harmful.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What happens if it's true that black managers are more likely to be sacked in a shorter space of time?
Maybe the truth makes people uncomfortable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Consideration is needed on both sides of the debate.
A starting position of all adverse decsions against a black person have racist motivations is not right, even if the facts (and you have to consider the meaning of facts here too as accusations without facts also have to be carefully handled) show that there are many situations where racist motivations have been involved.
I have been "mugged" twice. No harm came to me but my possessions taken. Twice, in Leyton when my brother used to live there. Once by an individual with a knife, once by a group of about 4. Both times youths, all persons black. Would it be fair for me to draw generalised conclusions from those experiences.
I dont because i am smart enough to understand the circumstances of what happened and where i was and that i do not hold general prejudices against anyone.
People like Barnes will have no doubt suffered awful abuse as a player and it would be been a terrible place to be....but that does not mean that when he is aggrieved for losing his job it is right to assume it is racially motivated
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 49 seconds ago
Do people on this forum not understand that it's a proven fact that minority ethnic people in Britain are discriminated against in the job market?
Why should we think that football is any different?
Open your minds up. Do some reading. Listen to people affected by it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Less than 4% of the population of the UK is black.There is certainly more than 4% representation of black people in the professional game.As an industry then football is a beacon of light or do you disagree
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 5 seconds ago
My fault, I should have said black and English, due to that being Barnes issue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So being English in the EPL is a problem as big as being black to get a managers job then....righty oh
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that not what John Barnes said?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If it is then surely those who run football should fast track English people to become managers as well as black people then.
Sign in if you want to comment
Klopp would have got sacked if
Page 4 of 6
6
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Anne is ruled out on medical grounds (U8366)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 58 minutes ago
If, as it seems here, Barnes is effectively playing the black card then it does nothing to help the cause. Barnes comments sound like they come from his own personal experience (Black and English!) No one actually knows if his colour came in to any decision making process, so it would be wrong either way to assume it did or didnt.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The fact that you call racism 'the black card' like it's a magical made up thing that black people WANT to have to highlight makes me think you have no clue what John was on about....And yeah, we all are pretty sure his colour has come into things, like many other former black players that find it ridiculously difficult to get into management.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Couldn't have put it better myself. Absolutely sickens me when you got white people who have no understanding about the black experience try say things like "race card" or "chip on your shoulder". Fack off you racist pr!cks. U want to remember war veterans and the Holocaust but whenever we talk about black issues it is trivialised into "playing the race card"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry if you dont like the use of the term "black card". It may be lazy by me but its also a widely used expression when talking about any issue - sexuality, race, religion, so there is no need to be so precious about it.
Just as a white man may not fully know the suffering of black people as they have not experienced it, then no one can also say what is in the mind of another a person when they make a decision.
On the face of it, Barnes was sacked for very obvious failings as a manager, not just once but twice, he barely lasted in his position more than half a season.
You have to ask yourself, if there is truly racism in these decisions then how did he get the chance in teh first place, especially at Celtic which was his first gig and a very prestigious role for any inexperienced manager of any colour or nationality.
He also failed at Tranmere and his record was atrocious there.
In modern terms, look at someone like Woodgate. Very similar sort of background in terms of a quality playing career and top player. He took over at Boro, did a bad job and was sacked. He also, may never get the chance to manage again. Clearly no racism in that judgement but because Barnes is black we are to assume racism played a part in his failure, and disagreeing with this is to be racist?
The reason i call it unhelpful is because in Barnes case, he was such a poor manager that his sacking is for very obvious reasons, yet his statement stornly implies racist motivations, and he hasnt supported this with anything.
This is not to deny it doesnt take place and is likely more widespread than we imagine but we cannot debate this such definitive terms - because he is black and was sacked there was racism and anyone who contests that is a racist.
posted on 16/11/20
JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
I know more than you, that much is clear.
Listen, the reason for societal representation is facking basic. I mean, it's entry grade level into understanding prejudices and biases, and how to overcome them.
You can either read up as to why that is and why efforts are being made to improve inclusion rates, or you can continue posting ignorant comments on a forum in the belief that you have considered every angle.
Up to you, but I'm not wasting anymore time on you.
posted on 16/11/20
And as we all saw last week, how the Head of the FA speaks about ethnic minorities, kinda confirms how the mentality works at the top of the game then filters downwards.
posted on 16/11/20
This is not to deny it doesnt take place and is likely more widespread than we imagine but we cannot debate this such definitive terms - because he is black and was sacked there was racism and anyone who contests that is a racist.
------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think anyone who contest that is racist at all. The John Barnes case as a standalone, i don't think was a racism thing. But it definitely happens, which is my main point.
posted on 16/11/20
Devonshirespur (U6316)
Not saying you're wrong, but what is the answer then?
We'll never definitively know, will we?
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 27 minutes ago
Devonshirespur (U6316)
So because you don't agree with Barnes, you get to use this as an example of why you wish to dismiss all legitimate complaints of prejudice?
(Not saying you, I mean figuratively speaking)
Sorry, I take real issue with that, that is not fair at all and certainly doesn't justify the ignorant comments I was replying to.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely not.
What is not helpful is the explicit statements where he is generalising. To make statements like "If he was Black or English he would have been sacked" is a massive generalisation and these are dangerous in these sorts of debates. As such i believe Barnes comments do more harm than good, and particularly where his comments are very clearly linked to his managerial career which was a clear failure for sporting reasons .
That is not to dismiss that there is widespread racism at differing degrees, whether conscious or subconscious bias, but it is dangerous to make such generalisation and start from a point of assuming that this is present in everyone and every decision. It is insulting to do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't disagree entirely but I struggle with how his comments do any harm?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because his comments are generalisations. This does not add anything positive to the debate.
Sterotypes are another form of generalisation and we all know how harmful these can be.
What Barnes is saying is that any black english manager being sacked is on the basis of non-football/unmeritted reasons. How the hell is that useful to the debate? I am a moderate person and like to think i hold no prejudices in my life (ok, i may have a problem with gooners ) and i am willing to understand more and improve myself but statements like this from Barnes do not sit well with me as they seem to come from bitterness about what happened to him as a manager.
SO in circumstances where Barnes was very clearly bad at his job, not once but twice, if this sort of accusation is made then it may make people think twice about employing someone who may throw these sort of accusations about, whether merited or not.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 27 minutes ago
Devonshirespur (U6316)
So because you don't agree with Barnes, you get to use this as an example of why you wish to dismiss all legitimate complaints of prejudice?
(Not saying you, I mean figuratively speaking)
Sorry, I take real issue with that, that is not fair at all and certainly doesn't justify the ignorant comments I was replying to.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely not.
What is not helpful is the explicit statements where he is generalising. To make statements like "If he was Black or English he would have been sacked" is a massive generalisation and these are dangerous in these sorts of debates. As such i believe Barnes comments do more harm than good, and particularly where his comments are very clearly linked to his managerial career which was a clear failure for sporting reasons .
That is not to dismiss that there is widespread racism at differing degrees, whether conscious or subconscious bias, but it is dangerous to make such generalisation and start from a point of assuming that this is present in everyone and every decision. It is insulting to do so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't disagree entirely but I struggle with how his comments do any harm?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because his comments are generalisations. This does not add anything positive to the debate.
Sterotypes are another form of generalisation and we all know how harmful these can be.
What Barnes is saying is that any black english manager being sacked is on the basis of non-football/unmeritted reasons. How the hell is that useful to the debate? I am a moderate person and like to think i hold no prejudices in my life (ok, i may have a problem with gooners) and i am willing to understand more and improve myself but statements like this from Barnes do not sit well with me as they seem to come from bitterness about what happened to him as a manager.
SO in circumstances where Barnes was very clearly bad at his job, not once but twice, if this sort of accusation is made then it may make people think twice about employing someone who may throw these sort of accusations about, whether merited or not.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 16/11/20
All these lengthy comments trying to justify racism.
posted on 16/11/20
Devonshirespur (U6316)
What's wrong with a generalisation?
Generally speaking, race and colour do play a part in employment and prejudice does exist.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 41 minutes ago
Same with the assumption that black managers or coaches don't get a chance, just because there aren't that many with jobs in the EFL. Is everybody suddenly an expert on this now?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
We're not experts, and don't have to be really but history and the fact that loads of ex black footballers have all said the same thing about the difficulty of getting into football management, makes me think this is more than an assumption.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But what about other white managers that have likely applied for several jobs in god knows how many years and not got them? Just because there is a majority of white coaches and a minority black coaches, means they don't get an opportunity? Maybe they aren't putting themselves forward enough, in the belief they won't get a job, which shouldn't happen now in 2020.
Yes, you may unfortunately encounter some form of racism, as I say, a cultural change that will take generations to sort out.
The issues are getting sorted out, slowly but surely, nothing will change overnight, but I think people need to understand that there is a majority of white coaches in England, so yes, inevitably, more white coaches will get jobs than black coaches, who would believe such a thing! But apparently it's all against black people because they don't get any jobs?
posted on 16/11/20
Lets try another way of looking at this!..
How many managers/coaches are there in the English league?..
If anyone wants to search than answer!..
How many of those managers/coaches would you class in the same category as Klopp?..
So far so good me thinks, so, next question!..
How many none white managers/coaches are there in the English league?..
I thought not long ago English football started something of to fast track Black managers, I stand to be corrected on that one but I think they did!..
So, asking how many people would come in the same category as Klopp, people should realize, the class Klopp is in there ain't many white managers/coaches in the same class!..
% wise and how many Black managers/coaches there are, it shows that at the moment there isn't any as good as the top managers and that renders Barnes's comment as dumb!..
The races card hasn't been used here, its a case of Barnes stating a Black manager would have been sacked when it isn't true!..
The coaching/fast track approach the league has in place should get more Blacks into the game, but it will take time!..
Problem then will be to find some as good as the top people around the game that are all class managers/coaches in their own right!..
Barnes had no need to say what he said!..
This day and age clubs know the fall out if they did anything against race, but at the same time, they'll also know if a manager/coach,(of any colour!)is good enough to help them achieve what they're trying to achieve!..
Nothing more for me to say here because I'm one that thinks Barnes was playing this for himself and stuff what anyone thinks!..
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 25 minutes ago
Devonshirespur (U6316)
What's wrong with a generalisation?
Generally speaking, race and colour do play a part in employment and prejudice does exist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because this is an extremely sensitive issue, generalising has the potential to be offensive. For example if you generalise by saying Black managers are more likely to be sacked for not football related reasons (ie because of their colour) then anyone who sacks a black manager, whatever their motive, will be labelled as racist or racist motivations if such generalisations are allowed to stand unchallenged.
Generalisations such as black players are fast and powerful have been challenged by those who feel that their other attributes are being ignored and the focus is on these particular qualities...and even where such comment is well-meaning , such generalisations are considered as harmful.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 25 minutes ago
Devonshirespur (U6316)
What's wrong with a generalisation?
Generally speaking, race and colour do play a part in employment and prejudice does exist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because this is an extremely sensitive issue, generalising has the potential to be offensive. For example if you generalise by saying Black managers are more likely to be sacked for not football related reasons (ie because of their colour) then anyone who sacks a black manager, whatever their motive, will be labelled as racist or racist motivations if such generalisations are allowed to stand unchallenged.
Generalisations such as black players are fast and powerful have been challenged by those who feel that their other attributes are being ignored and the focus is on these particular qualities...and even where such comment is well-meaning , such generalisations are considered as harmful.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What happens if it's true that black managers are more likely to be sacked in a shorter space of time?
Maybe the truth makes people uncomfortable.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 25 minutes ago
Devonshirespur (U6316)
What's wrong with a generalisation?
Generally speaking, race and colour do play a part in employment and prejudice does exist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because this is an extremely sensitive issue, generalising has the potential to be offensive. For example if you generalise by saying Black managers are more likely to be sacked for not football related reasons (ie because of their colour) then anyone who sacks a black manager, whatever their motive, will be labelled as racist or racist motivations if such generalisations are allowed to stand unchallenged.
Generalisations such as black players are fast and powerful have been challenged by those who feel that their other attributes are being ignored and the focus is on these particular qualities...and even where such comment is well-meaning , such generalisations are considered as harmful.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What happens if it's true that black managers are more likely to be sacked in a shorter space of time?
Maybe the truth makes people uncomfortable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that the truth though? Or is this just an assumption.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 25 minutes ago
Devonshirespur (U6316)
What's wrong with a generalisation?
Generally speaking, race and colour do play a part in employment and prejudice does exist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because this is an extremely sensitive issue, generalising has the potential to be offensive. For example if you generalise by saying Black managers are more likely to be sacked for not football related reasons (ie because of their colour) then anyone who sacks a black manager, whatever their motive, will be labelled as racist or racist motivations if such generalisations are allowed to stand unchallenged.
Generalisations such as black players are fast and powerful have been challenged by those who feel that their other attributes are being ignored and the focus is on these particular qualities...and even where such comment is well-meaning , such generalisations are considered as harmful.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What happens if it's true that black managers are more likely to be sacked in a shorter space of time?
Maybe the truth makes people uncomfortable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What happens if owners of clubs are falsely accused of being racists due to sacking a poor manager who happens to be black.
Will they then believe it's more hassle than it's worth to hire another black person as manager,thus making any future black managers prospects less.
posted on 16/11/20
The issues are getting sorted out, slowly but surely, nothing will change overnight, but I think people need to understand that there is a majority of white coaches in England, so yes, inevitably, more white coaches will get jobs than black coaches, who would believe such a thing! But apparently it's all against black people because they don't get any jobs?
---'-------------------
No one is saying its going to change overnight and obviously black is the minority in England but as you just said 'they don't get ANY jobs' . The fact there are NO black managers at all in the PL, not sure about the EFL, says to me that's its deeper than the excuses u are saying.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 second ago
The issues are getting sorted out, slowly but surely, nothing will change overnight, but I think people need to understand that there is a majority of white coaches in England, so yes, inevitably, more white coaches will get jobs than black coaches, who would believe such a thing! But apparently it's all against black people because they don't get any jobs?
---'-------------------
No one is saying its going to change overnight and obviously black is the minority in England but as you just said 'they don't get ANY jobs' . The fact there are NO black managers at all in the PL, not sure about the EFL, says to me that's its deeper than the excuses u are saying.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think you'll find the manager of Wolverhampton Wanderers is actually Black
posted on 16/11/20
My fault, I should have said black and English, due to that being Barnes issue.
posted on 16/11/20
Colemanballs (U22246)
Who has been falsely accused?
posted on 16/11/20
Do people on this forum not understand that it's a proven fact that minority ethnic people in Britain are discriminated against in the job market?
Why should we think that football is any different?
Open your minds up. Do some reading. Listen to people affected by it.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 5 seconds ago
My fault, I should have said black and English, due to that being Barnes issue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So being English in the EPL is a problem as big as being black to get a managers job then....righty oh
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 5 seconds ago
My fault, I should have said black and English, due to that being Barnes issue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So being English in the EPL is a problem as big as being black to get a managers job then....righty oh
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that not what John Barnes said?
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 25 minutes ago
Devonshirespur (U6316)
What's wrong with a generalisation?
Generally speaking, race and colour do play a part in employment and prejudice does exist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because this is an extremely sensitive issue, generalising has the potential to be offensive. For example if you generalise by saying Black managers are more likely to be sacked for not football related reasons (ie because of their colour) then anyone who sacks a black manager, whatever their motive, will be labelled as racist or racist motivations if such generalisations are allowed to stand unchallenged.
Generalisations such as black players are fast and powerful have been challenged by those who feel that their other attributes are being ignored and the focus is on these particular qualities...and even where such comment is well-meaning , such generalisations are considered as harmful.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What happens if it's true that black managers are more likely to be sacked in a shorter space of time?
Maybe the truth makes people uncomfortable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Consideration is needed on both sides of the debate.
A starting position of all adverse decsions against a black person have racist motivations is not right, even if the facts (and you have to consider the meaning of facts here too as accusations without facts also have to be carefully handled) show that there are many situations where racist motivations have been involved.
I have been "mugged" twice. No harm came to me but my possessions taken. Twice, in Leyton when my brother used to live there. Once by an individual with a knife, once by a group of about 4. Both times youths, all persons black. Would it be fair for me to draw generalised conclusions from those experiences.
I dont because i am smart enough to understand the circumstances of what happened and where i was and that i do not hold general prejudices against anyone.
People like Barnes will have no doubt suffered awful abuse as a player and it would be been a terrible place to be....but that does not mean that when he is aggrieved for losing his job it is right to assume it is racially motivated
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 49 seconds ago
Do people on this forum not understand that it's a proven fact that minority ethnic people in Britain are discriminated against in the job market?
Why should we think that football is any different?
Open your minds up. Do some reading. Listen to people affected by it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Less than 4% of the population of the UK is black.There is certainly more than 4% representation of black people in the professional game.As an industry then football is a beacon of light or do you disagree
posted on 16/11/20
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 5 seconds ago
My fault, I should have said black and English, due to that being Barnes issue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So being English in the EPL is a problem as big as being black to get a managers job then....righty oh
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that not what John Barnes said?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If it is then surely those who run football should fast track English people to become managers as well as black people then.
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