Devonshirespur (U6316)
But it's a proven fact that black people are the subject of prejudice in the UK.
That's not an unfounded generalisation.
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 49 seconds ago
Do people on this forum not understand that it's a proven fact that minority ethnic people in Britain are discriminated against in the job market?
Why should we think that football is any different?
Open your minds up. Do some reading. Listen to people affected by it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Less than 4% of the population of the UK is black.There is certainly more than 4% representation of black people in the professional game.As an industry then football is a beacon of light or do you disagree
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In senior positions of the game, no, it's not a beacon of light at all.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 4 seconds ago
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 49 seconds ago
Do people on this forum not understand that it's a proven fact that minority ethnic people in Britain are discriminated against in the job market?
Why should we think that football is any different?
Open your minds up. Do some reading. Listen to people affected by it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Less than 4% of the population of the UK is black.There is certainly more than 4% representation of black people in the professional game.As an industry then football is a beacon of light or do you disagree
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In senior positions of the game, no, it's not a beacon of light at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
5% of managers of Premier league clubs are black,over 30% of players in the premier league are black.Both are higher than the percentage of black people as a percentage of the population or is that incorrect?
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 4 seconds ago
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 49 seconds ago
Do people on this forum not understand that it's a proven fact that minority ethnic people in Britain are discriminated against in the job market?
Why should we think that football is any different?
Open your minds up. Do some reading. Listen to people affected by it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Less than 4% of the population of the UK is black.There is certainly more than 4% representation of black people in the professional game.As an industry then football is a beacon of light or do you disagree
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In senior positions of the game, no, it's not a beacon of light at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
5% of managers of Premier league clubs are black,over 30% of players in the premier league are black.Both are higher than the percentage of black people as a percentage of the population or is that incorrect?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean people running the game, senior positions in the club etc.
The percentage in the PL is a bit of a silly figure to use, given it only needs one manager for that to be the case. Easily skewed data that doesn't really help.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 55 seconds ago
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 4 seconds ago
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 49 seconds ago
Do people on this forum not understand that it's a proven fact that minority ethnic people in Britain are discriminated against in the job market?
Why should we think that football is any different?
Open your minds up. Do some reading. Listen to people affected by it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Less than 4% of the population of the UK is black.There is certainly more than 4% representation of black people in the professional game.As an industry then football is a beacon of light or do you disagree
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In senior positions of the game, no, it's not a beacon of light at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
5% of managers of Premier league clubs are black,over 30% of players in the premier league are black.Both are higher than the percentage of black people as a percentage of the population or is that incorrect?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean people running the game, senior positions in the club etc.
The percentage in the PL is a bit of a silly figure to use, given it only needs one manager for that to be the case. Easily skewed data that doesn't really help.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As a percentage of the population then that 1 person does represent the overall make up of the country.
What do you want as a fair representation of 4% of the population?
I don't want to discuss percentages for such a niche group - it's of no value.
It could be 20%... wouldn't mean that football doesn't have a problem in general.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 20 minutes ago
Do people on this forum not understand that it's a proven fact that minority ethnic people in Britain are discriminated against in the job market?
Why should we think that football is any different?
Open your minds up. Do some reading. Listen to people affected by it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So when you've basically called me thick on here, you've now come out and said that racism is apparent in every other sector in the UK (with no evidence to back this up at all, just pure assumption that it is) and have concluded that it must be apparent in football for the same reasons?
So everything you have just said is based on assumption that it does happen. Now, in fairness, you will be correct, there will be some form of racism I'm sure, but how can you say, for certain, this is a fact?
Somebody has just said there are no black managers in the PL? Nuno Espirito Santo is one, Chris Hughton was at Brighton and was probably rightfully sacked as well. So what's the problem? What other black managers would you put in the Premier League that are good enough to manage at that level? Is there anyone?
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 42 seconds ago
I don't want to discuss percentages for such a niche group - it's of no value.
It could be 20%... wouldn't mean that football doesn't have a problem in general.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok so because football is now a niche group that does have a fair representation you'd still say it has a problem even if it had 5 times more black people employed than the nation average.
I think the problem lies with you and not football
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
Do people on this forum not understand that it's a proven fact that minority ethnic people in Britain are discriminated against in the job market?
Why should we think that football is any different?
Open your minds up. Do some reading. Listen to people affected by it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Most people fully accept this.
But it is not the case in every instance.
Barnes wasnt overlooked for promotion, or not given an interview when they saw his colour on his CV etc etc. He was given a very prestigious job. Is that racism? He sucked at it and was sacked and there are countless managers who have been in the same position.
You can be understanding and have an open mind while also challenging the position that all adverse decisions against black people are racist. If i was being the one accused of such a serious thing i would be extremely offended and angry
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 42 seconds ago
I don't want to discuss percentages for such a niche group - it's of no value.
It could be 20%... wouldn't mean that football doesn't have a problem in general.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok so because football is now a niche group that does have a fair representation you'd still say it has a problem even if it had 5 times more black people employed than the nation average.
I think the problem lies with you and not football
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So because taking a subset of data - 20 employees in a huge industry - and concluding that it has good representation i.e. 1 of 20, you are now making the statement that football does have a fair representation?
Maybe the problem is with your lack of braincells.
Devonshirespur (U6316)
No one said all adverse decisions against black people are racist and no one has been personally accused.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 minutes ago
I don't want to discuss percentages for such a niche group - it's of no value.
It could be 20%... wouldn't mean that football doesn't have a problem in general.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All this is in response to Barnes saying that Black English managers would have got the sack if they had Klopps position in his first couple seasons.
So calling this niche is a cop out. This whole discussion is based on Barnes comments !
I remember seeing one of Piers Morgan's rants about Meghan Markle - he was arguing that the British press aren't racist.
He challenged the interviewee to show him one racist headline that year.
This is the thing that people struggle with on this subject.
Not all racism is some drunken idiot making racist gestures at the side of a pitch.
Much of it is hidden, even subconscious bias and it's difficult to prove and to measure.
Whether Barnes is right or wrong about Klopp isn't really the point. The point should be whether he's right that generally, black managers would be given less time than white managers.
Now, I'm not saying he's right or wrong - but it's a hypothesis that deserves respect and consideration... unless of course you're the sharp minds of JA606 and you can rule it out immediately, I suppose.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 minutes ago
I don't want to discuss percentages for such a niche group - it's of no value.
It could be 20%... wouldn't mean that football doesn't have a problem in general.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All this is in response to Barnes saying that Black English managers would have got the sack if they had Klopps position in his first couple seasons.
So calling this niche is a cop out. This whole discussion is based on Barnes comments !
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a cop out to take 20 PL managers and because one of them is black, you apparently rule out prejudice against black people in football.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 42 seconds ago
I don't want to discuss percentages for such a niche group - it's of no value.
It could be 20%... wouldn't mean that football doesn't have a problem in general.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok so because football is now a niche group that does have a fair representation you'd still say it has a problem even if it had 5 times more black people employed than the nation average.
I think the problem lies with you and not football
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So because taking a subset of data - 20 employees in a huge industry - and concluding that it has good representation i.e. 1 of 20, you are now making the statement that football does have a fair representation?
Maybe the problem is with your lack of braincells.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You are the one implying that football as an industry is innately racist.OK I'll play your game,John Barnes and his situation and his views on it have no baring on whether the football industry is racist or not as it's only 1 out of 20 that is ever in that position at any given time.
He's just biiitching about things because he was never good enough in the first place whatever colour he is
"You are the one implying that football as an industry is innately racist."
I did no such thing.
"He's just biiitching about things because he was never good enough in the first place whatever colour he is"
Your maturity on such a serious issue is appreciated.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 29 seconds ago
"You are the one implying that football as an industry is innately racist."
I did no such thing.
"He's just biiitching about things because he was never good enough in the first place whatever colour he is"
Your maturity on such a serious issue is appreciated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What's this serious issue?
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 29 seconds ago
"You are the one implying that football as an industry is innately racist."
I did no such thing.
"He's just biiitching about things because he was never good enough in the first place whatever colour he is"
Your maturity on such a serious issue is appreciated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What's this serious issue?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus wept.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 14 seconds ago
I remember seeing one of Piers Morgan's rants about Meghan Markle - he was arguing that the British press aren't racist.
He challenged the interviewee to show him one racist headline that year.
This is the thing that people struggle with on this subject.
Not all racism is some drunken idiot making racist gestures at the side of a pitch.
Much of it is hidden, even subconscious bias and it's difficult to prove and to measure.
Whether Barnes is right or wrong about Klopp isn't really the point. The point should be whether he's right that generally, black managers would be given less time than white managers.
Now, I'm not saying he's right or wrong - but it's a hypothesis that deserves respect and consideration... unless of course you're the sharp minds of JA606 and you can rule it out immediately, I suppose.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally, I think the issue is more about the opportunities being given. There are many many examples of managers failing and quickly being sacked. How long did Roy Hodgson last, a vastly experienced and successful manager? Big Phil at Chelsea? Moyes at United.
Barnes was given opportunities and failed and that is what is probably different from the racism in teh general market place that you talk about where people face discrimination by not getting the opportunity or being overlooked for promotion etc I just think the Barnes situation is a very bad example if you are looking to demonstrate prejudice which is why his statements are poorly considered IMO.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 minutes ago
I don't want to discuss percentages for such a niche group - it's of no value.
It could be 20%... wouldn't mean that football doesn't have a problem in general.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All this is in response to Barnes saying that Black English managers would have got the sack if they had Klopps position in his first couple seasons.
So calling this niche is a cop out. This whole discussion is based on Barnes comments !
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a cop out to take 20 PL managers and because one of them is black, you apparently rule out prejudice against black people in football.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No ones ruling it out. Just not applying blanket racism because a crap manager, who happens to be black, got sacked from every job he had.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 minutes ago
I don't want to discuss percentages for such a niche group - it's of no value.
It could be 20%... wouldn't mean that football doesn't have a problem in general.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All this is in response to Barnes saying that Black English managers would have got the sack if they had Klopps position in his first couple seasons.
So calling this niche is a cop out. This whole discussion is based on Barnes comments !
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a cop out to take 20 PL managers and because one of them is black, you apparently rule out prejudice against black people in football.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No ones ruling it out. Just not applying blanket racism because a crap manager, who happens to be black, got sacked from every job he had.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe read above and revise that comment
Not saying you were.
Why do people think black managers do not get an opportunity? Because there aren't many of them in the game? How many of them are that good?
Nuno is a good manager, has a job doing well at Wolves. Hughton did well at Brighton, came to an end and now he's found a suitable club. Do we need to have more black managers in the PL, just for the sake of proving that the country isn't racist? Let's get Keith Curle, Chris Ramsey, Chris Powell etc jobs in the PL in that case because that will show everybody we aren't racist.
Not sure what all these people jumping on the bandwagon of "more needs to be done" expect to be done at the moment. Some things take time, this is one of them.
At least 1 BAME candidate has to be considered (or something along that remark) for every managerial position in the EFL I believe. So to say they do not get an opportunity at a job is ridiculous, they don't get them because there are better options elsewhere.
Do we need to have more black managers in the PL, just for the sake of proving that the country isn't racist?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing will prove that this country isn't racist...... but that's another discussion.
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 minute ago
Do we need to have more black managers in the PL, just for the sake of proving that the country isn't racist?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing will prove that this country isn't racist...... but that's another discussion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And I do agree with that, which begs the question, what are people expected to be done about it? In this scenario, John Barnes' comment about how Klopp would have been sacked if he was black, which is clearly an extreme view, because I don't think they would have done.
There are examples of black managers being sacked for doing poor jobs, himself and Paul Ince are good examples. There are examples of black managers being sacked for maybe doing respectable jobs, such as Darren Moore and maybe even Chris Hughton at Brighton (when you consider what he has done for them).
This is no different with the various white managers who have been sacked for doing poor jobs, or white managers being sacked for doing not so poor jobs. Gary Rowett at Birmingham, Gary Monk at Swansea in the PL etc.
The point is, it has nothing to do with the colour of anyone's skin, more to do with the ratio of black coaches/managers who are good enough, compared to white coaches/managers who are good enough. As I say, a ratio which I expect to slowly even out in the next few decades, in time.
I do wonder how many black players purposefully chose not to pursue a career in management because of the limited opportunities they genuinely felt they would have.
Sign in if you want to comment
Klopp would have got sacked if
Page 5 of 6
6
posted on 16/11/20
Devonshirespur (U6316)
But it's a proven fact that black people are the subject of prejudice in the UK.
That's not an unfounded generalisation.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 49 seconds ago
Do people on this forum not understand that it's a proven fact that minority ethnic people in Britain are discriminated against in the job market?
Why should we think that football is any different?
Open your minds up. Do some reading. Listen to people affected by it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Less than 4% of the population of the UK is black.There is certainly more than 4% representation of black people in the professional game.As an industry then football is a beacon of light or do you disagree
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In senior positions of the game, no, it's not a beacon of light at all.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 4 seconds ago
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 49 seconds ago
Do people on this forum not understand that it's a proven fact that minority ethnic people in Britain are discriminated against in the job market?
Why should we think that football is any different?
Open your minds up. Do some reading. Listen to people affected by it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Less than 4% of the population of the UK is black.There is certainly more than 4% representation of black people in the professional game.As an industry then football is a beacon of light or do you disagree
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In senior positions of the game, no, it's not a beacon of light at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
5% of managers of Premier league clubs are black,over 30% of players in the premier league are black.Both are higher than the percentage of black people as a percentage of the population or is that incorrect?
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 4 seconds ago
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 49 seconds ago
Do people on this forum not understand that it's a proven fact that minority ethnic people in Britain are discriminated against in the job market?
Why should we think that football is any different?
Open your minds up. Do some reading. Listen to people affected by it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Less than 4% of the population of the UK is black.There is certainly more than 4% representation of black people in the professional game.As an industry then football is a beacon of light or do you disagree
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In senior positions of the game, no, it's not a beacon of light at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
5% of managers of Premier league clubs are black,over 30% of players in the premier league are black.Both are higher than the percentage of black people as a percentage of the population or is that incorrect?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean people running the game, senior positions in the club etc.
The percentage in the PL is a bit of a silly figure to use, given it only needs one manager for that to be the case. Easily skewed data that doesn't really help.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 55 seconds ago
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 4 seconds ago
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 49 seconds ago
Do people on this forum not understand that it's a proven fact that minority ethnic people in Britain are discriminated against in the job market?
Why should we think that football is any different?
Open your minds up. Do some reading. Listen to people affected by it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Less than 4% of the population of the UK is black.There is certainly more than 4% representation of black people in the professional game.As an industry then football is a beacon of light or do you disagree
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In senior positions of the game, no, it's not a beacon of light at all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
5% of managers of Premier league clubs are black,over 30% of players in the premier league are black.Both are higher than the percentage of black people as a percentage of the population or is that incorrect?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean people running the game, senior positions in the club etc.
The percentage in the PL is a bit of a silly figure to use, given it only needs one manager for that to be the case. Easily skewed data that doesn't really help.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As a percentage of the population then that 1 person does represent the overall make up of the country.
What do you want as a fair representation of 4% of the population?
posted on 16/11/20
I don't want to discuss percentages for such a niche group - it's of no value.
It could be 20%... wouldn't mean that football doesn't have a problem in general.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 20 minutes ago
Do people on this forum not understand that it's a proven fact that minority ethnic people in Britain are discriminated against in the job market?
Why should we think that football is any different?
Open your minds up. Do some reading. Listen to people affected by it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So when you've basically called me thick on here, you've now come out and said that racism is apparent in every other sector in the UK (with no evidence to back this up at all, just pure assumption that it is) and have concluded that it must be apparent in football for the same reasons?
So everything you have just said is based on assumption that it does happen. Now, in fairness, you will be correct, there will be some form of racism I'm sure, but how can you say, for certain, this is a fact?
Somebody has just said there are no black managers in the PL? Nuno Espirito Santo is one, Chris Hughton was at Brighton and was probably rightfully sacked as well. So what's the problem? What other black managers would you put in the Premier League that are good enough to manage at that level? Is there anyone?
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 42 seconds ago
I don't want to discuss percentages for such a niche group - it's of no value.
It could be 20%... wouldn't mean that football doesn't have a problem in general.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok so because football is now a niche group that does have a fair representation you'd still say it has a problem even if it had 5 times more black people employed than the nation average.
I think the problem lies with you and not football
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
Do people on this forum not understand that it's a proven fact that minority ethnic people in Britain are discriminated against in the job market?
Why should we think that football is any different?
Open your minds up. Do some reading. Listen to people affected by it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Most people fully accept this.
But it is not the case in every instance.
Barnes wasnt overlooked for promotion, or not given an interview when they saw his colour on his CV etc etc. He was given a very prestigious job. Is that racism? He sucked at it and was sacked and there are countless managers who have been in the same position.
You can be understanding and have an open mind while also challenging the position that all adverse decisions against black people are racist. If i was being the one accused of such a serious thing i would be extremely offended and angry
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 42 seconds ago
I don't want to discuss percentages for such a niche group - it's of no value.
It could be 20%... wouldn't mean that football doesn't have a problem in general.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok so because football is now a niche group that does have a fair representation you'd still say it has a problem even if it had 5 times more black people employed than the nation average.
I think the problem lies with you and not football
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So because taking a subset of data - 20 employees in a huge industry - and concluding that it has good representation i.e. 1 of 20, you are now making the statement that football does have a fair representation?
Maybe the problem is with your lack of braincells.
posted on 16/11/20
Devonshirespur (U6316)
No one said all adverse decisions against black people are racist and no one has been personally accused.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 minutes ago
I don't want to discuss percentages for such a niche group - it's of no value.
It could be 20%... wouldn't mean that football doesn't have a problem in general.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All this is in response to Barnes saying that Black English managers would have got the sack if they had Klopps position in his first couple seasons.
So calling this niche is a cop out. This whole discussion is based on Barnes comments !
posted on 16/11/20
I remember seeing one of Piers Morgan's rants about Meghan Markle - he was arguing that the British press aren't racist.
He challenged the interviewee to show him one racist headline that year.
This is the thing that people struggle with on this subject.
Not all racism is some drunken idiot making racist gestures at the side of a pitch.
Much of it is hidden, even subconscious bias and it's difficult to prove and to measure.
Whether Barnes is right or wrong about Klopp isn't really the point. The point should be whether he's right that generally, black managers would be given less time than white managers.
Now, I'm not saying he's right or wrong - but it's a hypothesis that deserves respect and consideration... unless of course you're the sharp minds of JA606 and you can rule it out immediately, I suppose.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 minutes ago
I don't want to discuss percentages for such a niche group - it's of no value.
It could be 20%... wouldn't mean that football doesn't have a problem in general.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All this is in response to Barnes saying that Black English managers would have got the sack if they had Klopps position in his first couple seasons.
So calling this niche is a cop out. This whole discussion is based on Barnes comments !
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a cop out to take 20 PL managers and because one of them is black, you apparently rule out prejudice against black people in football.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 42 seconds ago
I don't want to discuss percentages for such a niche group - it's of no value.
It could be 20%... wouldn't mean that football doesn't have a problem in general.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok so because football is now a niche group that does have a fair representation you'd still say it has a problem even if it had 5 times more black people employed than the nation average.
I think the problem lies with you and not football
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So because taking a subset of data - 20 employees in a huge industry - and concluding that it has good representation i.e. 1 of 20, you are now making the statement that football does have a fair representation?
Maybe the problem is with your lack of braincells.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You are the one implying that football as an industry is innately racist.OK I'll play your game,John Barnes and his situation and his views on it have no baring on whether the football industry is racist or not as it's only 1 out of 20 that is ever in that position at any given time.
He's just biiitching about things because he was never good enough in the first place whatever colour he is
posted on 16/11/20
"You are the one implying that football as an industry is innately racist."
I did no such thing.
"He's just biiitching about things because he was never good enough in the first place whatever colour he is"
Your maturity on such a serious issue is appreciated.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 29 seconds ago
"You are the one implying that football as an industry is innately racist."
I did no such thing.
"He's just biiitching about things because he was never good enough in the first place whatever colour he is"
Your maturity on such a serious issue is appreciated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What's this serious issue?
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Colemanballs (U22246)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 29 seconds ago
"You are the one implying that football as an industry is innately racist."
I did no such thing.
"He's just biiitching about things because he was never good enough in the first place whatever colour he is"
Your maturity on such a serious issue is appreciated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What's this serious issue?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus wept.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 14 seconds ago
I remember seeing one of Piers Morgan's rants about Meghan Markle - he was arguing that the British press aren't racist.
He challenged the interviewee to show him one racist headline that year.
This is the thing that people struggle with on this subject.
Not all racism is some drunken idiot making racist gestures at the side of a pitch.
Much of it is hidden, even subconscious bias and it's difficult to prove and to measure.
Whether Barnes is right or wrong about Klopp isn't really the point. The point should be whether he's right that generally, black managers would be given less time than white managers.
Now, I'm not saying he's right or wrong - but it's a hypothesis that deserves respect and consideration... unless of course you're the sharp minds of JA606 and you can rule it out immediately, I suppose.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally, I think the issue is more about the opportunities being given. There are many many examples of managers failing and quickly being sacked. How long did Roy Hodgson last, a vastly experienced and successful manager? Big Phil at Chelsea? Moyes at United.
Barnes was given opportunities and failed and that is what is probably different from the racism in teh general market place that you talk about where people face discrimination by not getting the opportunity or being overlooked for promotion etc I just think the Barnes situation is a very bad example if you are looking to demonstrate prejudice which is why his statements are poorly considered IMO.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 minutes ago
I don't want to discuss percentages for such a niche group - it's of no value.
It could be 20%... wouldn't mean that football doesn't have a problem in general.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All this is in response to Barnes saying that Black English managers would have got the sack if they had Klopps position in his first couple seasons.
So calling this niche is a cop out. This whole discussion is based on Barnes comments !
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a cop out to take 20 PL managers and because one of them is black, you apparently rule out prejudice against black people in football.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No ones ruling it out. Just not applying blanket racism because a crap manager, who happens to be black, got sacked from every job he had.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 minutes ago
I don't want to discuss percentages for such a niche group - it's of no value.
It could be 20%... wouldn't mean that football doesn't have a problem in general.
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All this is in response to Barnes saying that Black English managers would have got the sack if they had Klopps position in his first couple seasons.
So calling this niche is a cop out. This whole discussion is based on Barnes comments !
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It's a cop out to take 20 PL managers and because one of them is black, you apparently rule out prejudice against black people in football.
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No ones ruling it out. Just not applying blanket racism because a crap manager, who happens to be black, got sacked from every job he had.
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Maybe read above and revise that comment
Not saying you were.
posted on 16/11/20
Why do people think black managers do not get an opportunity? Because there aren't many of them in the game? How many of them are that good?
Nuno is a good manager, has a job doing well at Wolves. Hughton did well at Brighton, came to an end and now he's found a suitable club. Do we need to have more black managers in the PL, just for the sake of proving that the country isn't racist? Let's get Keith Curle, Chris Ramsey, Chris Powell etc jobs in the PL in that case because that will show everybody we aren't racist.
Not sure what all these people jumping on the bandwagon of "more needs to be done" expect to be done at the moment. Some things take time, this is one of them.
At least 1 BAME candidate has to be considered (or something along that remark) for every managerial position in the EFL I believe. So to say they do not get an opportunity at a job is ridiculous, they don't get them because there are better options elsewhere.
posted on 16/11/20
Do we need to have more black managers in the PL, just for the sake of proving that the country isn't racist?
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Nothing will prove that this country isn't racist...... but that's another discussion.
posted on 16/11/20
comment by AFCISMYTEAM (U14931)
posted 1 minute ago
Do we need to have more black managers in the PL, just for the sake of proving that the country isn't racist?
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Nothing will prove that this country isn't racist...... but that's another discussion.
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And I do agree with that, which begs the question, what are people expected to be done about it? In this scenario, John Barnes' comment about how Klopp would have been sacked if he was black, which is clearly an extreme view, because I don't think they would have done.
There are examples of black managers being sacked for doing poor jobs, himself and Paul Ince are good examples. There are examples of black managers being sacked for maybe doing respectable jobs, such as Darren Moore and maybe even Chris Hughton at Brighton (when you consider what he has done for them).
This is no different with the various white managers who have been sacked for doing poor jobs, or white managers being sacked for doing not so poor jobs. Gary Rowett at Birmingham, Gary Monk at Swansea in the PL etc.
The point is, it has nothing to do with the colour of anyone's skin, more to do with the ratio of black coaches/managers who are good enough, compared to white coaches/managers who are good enough. As I say, a ratio which I expect to slowly even out in the next few decades, in time.
posted on 16/11/20
I do wonder how many black players purposefully chose not to pursue a career in management because of the limited opportunities they genuinely felt they would have.
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