Agreed, whatever he did at HT yesterday worked a treat, it wasn't just a case of the players playing better or a 'rocket up their a*se' but we changed the way we were playing and it immediately put Burnley under more pressure.
My opinion is you either have it or you don't. He may well improve on tactics, but isn't going to be a top tactician.
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 1 minute ago
My opinion is you either have it or you don't. He may well improve on tactics, but isn't going to be a top tactician.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So what your saying is even though there is a clear example of how he influenced a game and changed it, he won't be a top tactician.
(That's your opinion btw) I'm just curious as to how you've come to being so black and white about it..
Anyone who said Ole can't organise a defence, has no plan etc etc. was talking utter sheite.
We knew that at the time and we still know that now.
Will those people admit it? I doubt it.
That doesn't mean that we will win the title, of course, but Ole is no mug certainly.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 4 minutes ago
Anyone who said Ole can't organise a defence, has no plan etc etc. was talking utter sheite.
We knew that at the time and we still know that now.
Will those people admit it? I doubt it.
That doesn't mean that we will win the title, of course, but Ole is no mug certainly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It always cracked me up that people assume the manager does everything on his own as well.
I think he is improving. The way he attempts to see out the game is still a great concern for me (without the ball, desperate last ditch blocks etc) but certainly other areas have improved.
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 20 minutes ago
My opinion is you either have it or you don't. He may well improve on tactics, but isn't going to be a top tactician.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My opinion is you can learn it. It's not like speed for example which you have or don't have
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 9 minutes ago
My opinion is you either have it or you don't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd dispute that notion. No one is born with the magic of tactical understanding. It's learnt; it can be studied. Some have greater aptitude for studying tactics. But in an era of ultra-professionalism where the cumulative learnings of tactics are accessible and top clubs invest lots of resources into tactical analysis teams, there's only so much difference one brilliant individual can make. Fergie wasn't a tactical genius (though a more sophisticated tactician than many think) but he was a constant student of new tactical ideas, and always surrounded himself with people who could introduce them.
Increasingly, I think we'll find that the tactical revolutions don't come from managers but at the level of data analysts, who sell their findings in the information economy. Great (or simply successful) coaches will need to competently harness cutting edge thinking - that's a prerequisite - but their added value comes from being able to realise it in the form of fielding motivated players who are capable to fulfil their roles and understand them well.
comment by Clever - son son son - '"Ole Ole Ole - The Cult One'' (U18599)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 1 minute ago
My opinion is you either have it or you don't. He may well improve on tactics, but isn't going to be a top tactician.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So what your saying is even though there is a clear example of how he influenced a game and changed it, he won't be a top tactician.
(That's your opinion btw) I'm just curious as to how you've come to being so black and white about it..
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's like chess; practice all you want, but very few will become a grandmaster. Some have a knack for strategy and some don't.
Remember there are thousands of football managers out there, but only a few make it to the top.
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 45 seconds ago
comment by Clever - son son son - '"Ole Ole Ole - The Cult One'' (U18599)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 1 minute ago
My opinion is you either have it or you don't. He may well improve on tactics, but isn't going to be a top tactician.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So what your saying is even though there is a clear example of how he influenced a game and changed it, he won't be a top tactician.
(That's your opinion btw) I'm just curious as to how you've come to being so black and white about it..
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's like chess; practice all you want, but very few will become a grandmaster. Some have a knack for strategy and some don't.
Remember there are thousands of football managers out there, but only a few make it to the top.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ole's at the top right now
I think people get caught up too much in the tactical side of the game when we win and when we lose.
Lots of games won and lost don't really have anything or much at all to do with tactics and I think last night was another example.
The major difference in the second half last night was the speed of our play, we kept better hold of the ball and managed to sustain attacks which had nothing really to do with a change of tactics.
The first half was the opposite of that and I doubt Ole set out to play that way.
Seeing out games comfortably with a one goal lead is beyond most English teams, and indeed England.
Even under SAF we often scored near the end when we put the other team under pressure, but we were poor at having a comfortable ride near the end if we were one up
every set of fans out there berates their manager for not making the right substitutions - wrong players brought on/off, and at the wrong time. it's an easy way for the fan to demonstrate their tactical understanding - "everyone can see that etc etc etc".
go and read the live football thread, or other teams' match threads, it is a constant complaint.
A better team would have punished us last night with the way we defended at times.
I hope we don't defend the same way against Liverpool or I hope their front 3 are as awful as Burnley's forwards were yesterday.
He’s not the best tactician, what he seems to excel at tactically is setting up a team to counter.
What has been happening, same as last night, is the fact that you have one of the most expensive squads ever assembled - with world class players and players who can semi consistently perform at a world class level. Your team is almost always better than who you face and you usually will win.
The way he attempts to see out the game is still a great concern for me (without the ball, desperate last ditch blocks etc) but certainly other areas have improved.
-----------------------------------------------
Yeah it's still an issue. There's more risk involved for us in trying to see out a game in that way as opposed to trying to sustain pressure at the other end and kill the game off.
That said and I've mentioned this before, we've almost won as many games by a single goal now as we did last season and it's only January so that is a positive even though we've ridden our luck at times in some of those games.
“The guy’s clueless”
He’s also managing the biggest club in the world and has got them to the top of the league almost half way through the season for the first time in 8 (?) years...
One point about last night, normally I think we’d like to see subs made sooner when we’re not winning, but last night was spot on. He could tell we were building momentum second half and a goal wasn’t far off. Didn’t change the team and bang.. we scored. Good job
Some were still crowing on the match thread 'subs?' during as spell we were having a shot at goal every few minutes and putting them under constant pressure, just because we'd not scored yet.
I think it's important to distinguish that there are two levels of tactics.
One is over game-plan and team setup which requires an understanding of the opposition. I think ole is great at this.
The other is is more micro tactics. style of play, the way groups in different zones work together and position themselves, how player move, the way the approach breaking down a block and anticipate the position of a teammate because they've practised that movement over ran over. That is where most fans, including myself, critisie Ole. We don't seem to have that coached into our players. It's obvious when we are in the attacking third in the 10th minute, where players are supposed to be full of energy, yet we are stood still looking at the player with ball and not moving. The slow passing. We are good in counter attack but we don't have tactcs and a way of playing in possession. I have been critical of Ole but he has largely turned it around so far, but unless he can get this part of the "tactics" right and drilled into the players, we won't win the PL. We will finish top 4, but that shouldn't be the goal.
What ever tactical acumen Ole has, I’m not sure ‘passing the ball quicker and playing with more tempo’ counts as a ‘tactical’ shift.
Every team wants to pass the ball quickly, play with tempo and overwhelm the opposition. And teams that do that consistently tend to fare well. We simply did it better in the second half than in the first last night.
Ole is Schrödingers Coach, before each game he is both tactically inept and tactically brilliant, it’s only after the final whistle you can be sure...
He does sway between both though tbf, he’s still learning at the highest level and sometimes he gets it spot on, other times he makes mistakes. The life of a PL manager?
I don’t think he’ll be the coach to bring big trophies back to United but he has, generally, improved the style of play and has done well in the transfer market.
I think the manager who comes in after him will have a great base to work from, unlike Ole when he took over.
Some were still crowing on the match thread 'subs?' during as spell we were having a shot at goal every few minutes and putting them under constant pressure, just because we'd not scored yet.
--------------------------------------------
Even though our attack didn't have a good game, you felt a goal was coming due to the sustained nature of the attacks.
What ever tactical acumen Ole has, I’m not sure ‘passing the ball quicker and playing with more tempo’ counts as a ‘tactical’ shift.
Every team wants to pass the ball quickly, play with tempo and overwhelm the opposition. And teams that do that consistently tend to fare well. We simply did it better in the second half than in the first last night.
----------------------------------------------
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No one is born with the magic of tactical understanding. It's learnt; it can be studied. Some have greater aptitude for studying tactics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It can be studied, but to apply it well you would need an observant and strategic mind that is constantly assessing things. This is most likely developed at a young age, and difficult to change as an adult. This is maybe what you meant by 'greater aptitude '. When I say you either have it or don't, I mean from ones early years and nurturing rather than being born with it (similar to leadership skills).
Also mentality comes into it. You would need to be proactive and bold enough to make changes.
If it wasn't too difficult to learn, we would surely have more top tacticians than we do.
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No one is born with the magic of tactical understanding. It's learnt; it can be studied. Some have greater aptitude for studying tactics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It can be studied, but to apply it well you would need an observant and strategic mind that is constantly assessing things. This is most likely developed at a young age, and difficult to change as an adult. This is maybe what you meant by 'greater aptitude '. When I say you either have it or don't, I mean from ones early years and nurturing rather than being born with it (similar to leadership skills).
Also mentality comes into it. You would need to be proactive and bold enough to make changes.
If it wasn't too difficult to learn, we would surely have more top tacticians than we do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You'd need that sort of mind to guide your team to the top of the league after taking over a shambles left by the previous manager. Long game
Sign in if you want to comment
An observation last night...
Page 1 of 3
posted on 13/1/21
Agreed, whatever he did at HT yesterday worked a treat, it wasn't just a case of the players playing better or a 'rocket up their a*se' but we changed the way we were playing and it immediately put Burnley under more pressure.
posted on 13/1/21
My opinion is you either have it or you don't. He may well improve on tactics, but isn't going to be a top tactician.
posted on 13/1/21
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 1 minute ago
My opinion is you either have it or you don't. He may well improve on tactics, but isn't going to be a top tactician.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So what your saying is even though there is a clear example of how he influenced a game and changed it, he won't be a top tactician.
(That's your opinion btw) I'm just curious as to how you've come to being so black and white about it..
posted on 13/1/21
Anyone who said Ole can't organise a defence, has no plan etc etc. was talking utter sheite.
We knew that at the time and we still know that now.
Will those people admit it? I doubt it.
That doesn't mean that we will win the title, of course, but Ole is no mug certainly.
posted on 13/1/21
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 4 minutes ago
Anyone who said Ole can't organise a defence, has no plan etc etc. was talking utter sheite.
We knew that at the time and we still know that now.
Will those people admit it? I doubt it.
That doesn't mean that we will win the title, of course, but Ole is no mug certainly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It always cracked me up that people assume the manager does everything on his own as well.
posted on 13/1/21
I think he is improving. The way he attempts to see out the game is still a great concern for me (without the ball, desperate last ditch blocks etc) but certainly other areas have improved.
posted on 13/1/21
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 20 minutes ago
My opinion is you either have it or you don't. He may well improve on tactics, but isn't going to be a top tactician.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My opinion is you can learn it. It's not like speed for example which you have or don't have
posted on 13/1/21
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 9 minutes ago
My opinion is you either have it or you don't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd dispute that notion. No one is born with the magic of tactical understanding. It's learnt; it can be studied. Some have greater aptitude for studying tactics. But in an era of ultra-professionalism where the cumulative learnings of tactics are accessible and top clubs invest lots of resources into tactical analysis teams, there's only so much difference one brilliant individual can make. Fergie wasn't a tactical genius (though a more sophisticated tactician than many think) but he was a constant student of new tactical ideas, and always surrounded himself with people who could introduce them.
Increasingly, I think we'll find that the tactical revolutions don't come from managers but at the level of data analysts, who sell their findings in the information economy. Great (or simply successful) coaches will need to competently harness cutting edge thinking - that's a prerequisite - but their added value comes from being able to realise it in the form of fielding motivated players who are capable to fulfil their roles and understand them well.
posted on 13/1/21
comment by Clever - son son son - '"Ole Ole Ole - The Cult One'' (U18599)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 1 minute ago
My opinion is you either have it or you don't. He may well improve on tactics, but isn't going to be a top tactician.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So what your saying is even though there is a clear example of how he influenced a game and changed it, he won't be a top tactician.
(That's your opinion btw) I'm just curious as to how you've come to being so black and white about it..
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's like chess; practice all you want, but very few will become a grandmaster. Some have a knack for strategy and some don't.
Remember there are thousands of football managers out there, but only a few make it to the top.
posted on 13/1/21
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 45 seconds ago
comment by Clever - son son son - '"Ole Ole Ole - The Cult One'' (U18599)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 1 minute ago
My opinion is you either have it or you don't. He may well improve on tactics, but isn't going to be a top tactician.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So what your saying is even though there is a clear example of how he influenced a game and changed it, he won't be a top tactician.
(That's your opinion btw) I'm just curious as to how you've come to being so black and white about it..
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's like chess; practice all you want, but very few will become a grandmaster. Some have a knack for strategy and some don't.
Remember there are thousands of football managers out there, but only a few make it to the top.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ole's at the top right now
posted on 13/1/21
I think people get caught up too much in the tactical side of the game when we win and when we lose.
Lots of games won and lost don't really have anything or much at all to do with tactics and I think last night was another example.
The major difference in the second half last night was the speed of our play, we kept better hold of the ball and managed to sustain attacks which had nothing really to do with a change of tactics.
The first half was the opposite of that and I doubt Ole set out to play that way.
posted on 13/1/21
Seeing out games comfortably with a one goal lead is beyond most English teams, and indeed England.
Even under SAF we often scored near the end when we put the other team under pressure, but we were poor at having a comfortable ride near the end if we were one up
posted on 13/1/21
every set of fans out there berates their manager for not making the right substitutions - wrong players brought on/off, and at the wrong time. it's an easy way for the fan to demonstrate their tactical understanding - "everyone can see that etc etc etc".
go and read the live football thread, or other teams' match threads, it is a constant complaint.
posted on 13/1/21
A better team would have punished us last night with the way we defended at times.
I hope we don't defend the same way against Liverpool or I hope their front 3 are as awful as Burnley's forwards were yesterday.
posted on 13/1/21
He’s not the best tactician, what he seems to excel at tactically is setting up a team to counter.
What has been happening, same as last night, is the fact that you have one of the most expensive squads ever assembled - with world class players and players who can semi consistently perform at a world class level. Your team is almost always better than who you face and you usually will win.
posted on 13/1/21
The way he attempts to see out the game is still a great concern for me (without the ball, desperate last ditch blocks etc) but certainly other areas have improved.
-----------------------------------------------
Yeah it's still an issue. There's more risk involved for us in trying to see out a game in that way as opposed to trying to sustain pressure at the other end and kill the game off.
That said and I've mentioned this before, we've almost won as many games by a single goal now as we did last season and it's only January so that is a positive even though we've ridden our luck at times in some of those games.
posted on 13/1/21
“The guy’s clueless”
He’s also managing the biggest club in the world and has got them to the top of the league almost half way through the season for the first time in 8 (?) years...
One point about last night, normally I think we’d like to see subs made sooner when we’re not winning, but last night was spot on. He could tell we were building momentum second half and a goal wasn’t far off. Didn’t change the team and bang.. we scored. Good job
posted on 13/1/21
Some were still crowing on the match thread 'subs?' during as spell we were having a shot at goal every few minutes and putting them under constant pressure, just because we'd not scored yet.
posted on 13/1/21
I think it's important to distinguish that there are two levels of tactics.
One is over game-plan and team setup which requires an understanding of the opposition. I think ole is great at this.
The other is is more micro tactics. style of play, the way groups in different zones work together and position themselves, how player move, the way the approach breaking down a block and anticipate the position of a teammate because they've practised that movement over ran over. That is where most fans, including myself, critisie Ole. We don't seem to have that coached into our players. It's obvious when we are in the attacking third in the 10th minute, where players are supposed to be full of energy, yet we are stood still looking at the player with ball and not moving. The slow passing. We are good in counter attack but we don't have tactcs and a way of playing in possession. I have been critical of Ole but he has largely turned it around so far, but unless he can get this part of the "tactics" right and drilled into the players, we won't win the PL. We will finish top 4, but that shouldn't be the goal.
posted on 13/1/21
What ever tactical acumen Ole has, I’m not sure ‘passing the ball quicker and playing with more tempo’ counts as a ‘tactical’ shift.
Every team wants to pass the ball quickly, play with tempo and overwhelm the opposition. And teams that do that consistently tend to fare well. We simply did it better in the second half than in the first last night.
posted on 13/1/21
Ole is Schrödingers Coach, before each game he is both tactically inept and tactically brilliant, it’s only after the final whistle you can be sure...
He does sway between both though tbf, he’s still learning at the highest level and sometimes he gets it spot on, other times he makes mistakes. The life of a PL manager?
I don’t think he’ll be the coach to bring big trophies back to United but he has, generally, improved the style of play and has done well in the transfer market.
I think the manager who comes in after him will have a great base to work from, unlike Ole when he took over.
posted on 13/1/21
Some were still crowing on the match thread 'subs?' during as spell we were having a shot at goal every few minutes and putting them under constant pressure, just because we'd not scored yet.
--------------------------------------------
Even though our attack didn't have a good game, you felt a goal was coming due to the sustained nature of the attacks.
posted on 13/1/21
What ever tactical acumen Ole has, I’m not sure ‘passing the ball quicker and playing with more tempo’ counts as a ‘tactical’ shift.
Every team wants to pass the ball quickly, play with tempo and overwhelm the opposition. And teams that do that consistently tend to fare well. We simply did it better in the second half than in the first last night.
----------------------------------------------
posted on 13/1/21
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No one is born with the magic of tactical understanding. It's learnt; it can be studied. Some have greater aptitude for studying tactics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It can be studied, but to apply it well you would need an observant and strategic mind that is constantly assessing things. This is most likely developed at a young age, and difficult to change as an adult. This is maybe what you meant by 'greater aptitude '. When I say you either have it or don't, I mean from ones early years and nurturing rather than being born with it (similar to leadership skills).
Also mentality comes into it. You would need to be proactive and bold enough to make changes.
If it wasn't too difficult to learn, we would surely have more top tacticians than we do.
posted on 13/1/21
comment by N2 (U22280)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No one is born with the magic of tactical understanding. It's learnt; it can be studied. Some have greater aptitude for studying tactics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It can be studied, but to apply it well you would need an observant and strategic mind that is constantly assessing things. This is most likely developed at a young age, and difficult to change as an adult. This is maybe what you meant by 'greater aptitude '. When I say you either have it or don't, I mean from ones early years and nurturing rather than being born with it (similar to leadership skills).
Also mentality comes into it. You would need to be proactive and bold enough to make changes.
If it wasn't too difficult to learn, we would surely have more top tacticians than we do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You'd need that sort of mind to guide your team to the top of the league after taking over a shambles left by the previous manager. Long game
Page 1 of 3