It's not even the handball rule that is the problem, it's the idea that rules can, do, and will change throughout the season. With this being certain, nobody can claim to be a football expert anymore, it's all just winged on the day
Okay led with his arm well above his head. Don't think there could be any doubt with that one.
The CHO one is slightly harder. Both he and Greenwood raise their arms, in order push the other away. Greenwoods arm pushes CHO's arm up, which imo creates the contact with the ball. I think for that reason there is mitigating circumstances which allows the ref to say no penalty. Personally, I would have expected a penalty to be given.
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 9 minutes ago
Okay led with his arm well above his head. Don't think there could be any doubt with that one.
The CHO one is slightly harder. Both he and Greenwood raise their arms, in order push the other away. Greenwoods arm pushes CHO's arm up, which imo creates the contact with the ball. I think for that reason there is mitigating circumstances which allows the ref to say no penalty. Personally, I would have expected a penalty to be given.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah CHO was nailed on and we need to talk about it forever.
Headlocks are okay though
If you say Greenwood pushed CHO arm toward the ball, then I can see the same argument applied in WBA incident. They made a mess of a rule. Doesn't matter how long you stare at the VAR screen, you cannot give the correct answer when you don't know what the correct answer would be.
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 14 minutes ago
Okay led with his arm well above his head. Don't think there could be any doubt with that one.
Greenwoods arm pushes CHO's arm up, which imo creates the contact with the ball.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://postimg.cc/wtKkwj0X
comment by red_evils (U19878)
posted 6 minutes ago
If you say Greenwood pushed CHO arm toward the ball, then I can see the same argument applied in WBA incident. They made a mess of a rule. Doesn't matter how long you stare at the VAR screen, you cannot give the correct answer when you don't know what the correct answer would be.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure how you can say the Brighton player, who was ahead of Okay, pushed his arm? Okay led with his arm.
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 19 seconds ago
comment by red_evils (U19878)
posted 6 minutes ago
If you say Greenwood pushed CHO arm toward the ball, then I can see the same argument applied in WBA incident. They made a mess of a rule. Doesn't matter how long you stare at the VAR screen, you cannot give the correct answer when you don't know what the correct answer would be.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure how you can say the Brighton player, who was ahead of Okay, pushed his arm? Okay led with his arm.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
See my screenshot in the above post. Not pushing, but clearly there should be doubt about the handball if you say CHO incident isn't one
I have seen the video, rather than a screenshot. Okay leads with his arm. His arm is well above shoulder level well before he even contacts his opponent, see about 40 seconds into this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyEC_mA1NCY
Okay loses his man, panics and puts his arm up.
The CHO, Greenwood one is different, they are fighting for a 50/50, both put their arms out and it is only because Greenwoods arm pushes CHO's up that contact is made by CHO's hand - and then Greenwoods.
Ok, I don't agree with it but I'm not here to make an argument about it. Read the handball rule as currently stated:
The hand/arm is clearly away from the body and outside the "body line".
The player clearly leans into the path of the ball.
The ball travels some distance.
The ball touches a hand/arm that is clearly raised above the shoulder.
The player falls and the hand/arm is extended laterally or vertically away from the body.
A deflection clearly makes no difference to the ball touching a hand/arm that is clearly extended away from the body and/or above the shoulder.
Immediately after touching the ball with the arm, even accidentally, the player scores a goal or creates a goal-scoring opportunity.
VAR is useful for goal-line decisions - over the line or not. Otherwise accept the in-play decision of the ref. Get rid of VAR. It is counterproductive, and appears to cause more problems than it solves. Referees seem to be frightened of doing their job and making a decision because of VAR, knowing that the broadcaster will show many angles that the ref can't possibly see.
I am not a professional referee, and there are far more financial implications of a "bad decision" than there used to be. How long will it be before we have no officials on the pitch and everything is ruled by guys watching tv screens. Give the authority back to the man in black. If a PL ref needs to check a tv replay he is not fit for the job.
VAR is useful for goal-line decisions - over the line or not.
=====
Something VAR isn't used for
The handball rule wasn't an issue before VAR. Jus sayin
comment by Bãles left boot (U22081)
posted 1 hour, 50 minutes ago
The handball rule wasn't an issue before VAR. Jus sayin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The current handball rule wasn't the handball rule before VAR and the guidance certainly didn't change halfway through a season.
Thanks. What's your point?
comment by Bãles left boot (U22081)
posted 36 minutes ago
Thanks. What's your point?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't it obvious?
comment by Bãles left boot (U22081)
posted 3 hours, 33 minutes ago
No.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's quite obvious he meant the handball rule only came to affect this season, so your conspiracy theory about VAR doesn't work.
As I said, doesn't matter how long you look at the replay, you can't have the answer if we don't know what the correct answer would be.
I just heard Rio youtube stream which he suggested to put the mic to the ref, the way rugby are using. I think that's a good move. Won't fix the current broken rule though
What conspiracy theory? I honestly don't know what you're talking about.
My point was that introducing VAR has necessitated rule changes where they weren't needed. Taking us further from how the game has always been played for no good reason other than some strange desire to reduce every decision in the game to a binary yes or no, regardless whether it makes sense in that context or not.
It's not a conspiracy, it's the inevitable end game when you put people who don't really understand or care for the sport in charge of it.
We've lost sight of what's important, and changing more rules because VAR doesn't work is only taking us further from the game we all love.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti change. But change should be better. And you can blame the officials all you like but there's always going to be people and some level of subjectivity involved.. if you can't make peace with that you're better off playing FM than watching football.
BTW what does miking up the ref actually solve? It'll just wind up people even more when they disagree with the decision.
The solution is to stop obsessing over every decision being 'correct'. It's not making the game better, and frankly it's impossible.
VAR is also the problem, not the system itself, but the communication of the decision.
If we used the rugby system the ref would be speaking to the VAR and everyone could hear it. You would then be able to hear the reasoning which makes the decision for the fans much easier to understand and accept.
Because football reffing is often a game of judgement, to be able to hear reasoning is so much better.
If you could hear the ref speaking with the VAR and saying "yes, i can seen the ball has hit his hand but it is not deliberate, it has not changed the outcome as Greenwood still has the ball, and maybe Greenwoods arm is pushing the defenders arm up a bit...I am happy to not give a penalty" at least you could understand his arguments. Again its a game of judgements and sometimes fans need to accept that not everyone will form the same judgement but at least they can have a chance at understanding an explanation of the decision, rather than having no explanation at all.
Others also need to take some responsibly , such as managers & players, and moderate their comments after the game. Big surprise that the United lot thought it was a pen. but there is no need to go bleating about it in the media because the decision was not that clear cut.
VAR has it own problem, I'm not disagree with that. My problem as in the title, they need to revert that handball rule asap. Just leave it to the ref to decide if the handball is intentional or not. It's not just United thought it was a pen. Alan Shearer on MOTD also said it should be a pen based on the law.
Should be noted that refs are mic'd up already. I just isn't broadcast.
The older ones of us will surely remember Paul Durkin coming out and explaining not giving a blatant penalty to Newcastle against Man United. A lot of people had sympathy for him, but how long will that last if refs are making excuses week after week. Exposing their incompetence won't help and I think that is why they don't allow the conversations to be aired.
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 42 minutes ago
Should be noted that refs are mic'd up already. I just isn't broadcast.
The older ones of us will surely remember Paul Durkin coming out and explaining not giving a blatant penalty to Newcastle against Man United. A lot of people had sympathy for him, but how long will that last if refs are making excuses week after week. Exposing their incompetence won't help and I think that is why they don't allow the conversations to be aired.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. They are still getting to grips with new processes they have to follow and whilst they are doing this, they're not going to air it.
Look at the Wales and England rugby game. They came out and stated that mistakes were made. The discussion going on with the referee didn't help anything.
Sign in if you want to comment
The handball rule is the problem, not VAR
Page 1 of 2
posted on 1/3/21
It's not even the handball rule that is the problem, it's the idea that rules can, do, and will change throughout the season. With this being certain, nobody can claim to be a football expert anymore, it's all just winged on the day
posted on 1/3/21
*the fact that*
posted on 1/3/21
Okay led with his arm well above his head. Don't think there could be any doubt with that one.
The CHO one is slightly harder. Both he and Greenwood raise their arms, in order push the other away. Greenwoods arm pushes CHO's arm up, which imo creates the contact with the ball. I think for that reason there is mitigating circumstances which allows the ref to say no penalty. Personally, I would have expected a penalty to be given.
posted on 1/3/21
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 9 minutes ago
Okay led with his arm well above his head. Don't think there could be any doubt with that one.
The CHO one is slightly harder. Both he and Greenwood raise their arms, in order push the other away. Greenwoods arm pushes CHO's arm up, which imo creates the contact with the ball. I think for that reason there is mitigating circumstances which allows the ref to say no penalty. Personally, I would have expected a penalty to be given.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah CHO was nailed on and we need to talk about it forever.
Headlocks are okay though
posted on 1/3/21
If you say Greenwood pushed CHO arm toward the ball, then I can see the same argument applied in WBA incident. They made a mess of a rule. Doesn't matter how long you stare at the VAR screen, you cannot give the correct answer when you don't know what the correct answer would be.
posted on 1/3/21
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 14 minutes ago
Okay led with his arm well above his head. Don't think there could be any doubt with that one.
Greenwoods arm pushes CHO's arm up, which imo creates the contact with the ball.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://postimg.cc/wtKkwj0X
posted on 1/3/21
comment by red_evils (U19878)
posted 6 minutes ago
If you say Greenwood pushed CHO arm toward the ball, then I can see the same argument applied in WBA incident. They made a mess of a rule. Doesn't matter how long you stare at the VAR screen, you cannot give the correct answer when you don't know what the correct answer would be.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure how you can say the Brighton player, who was ahead of Okay, pushed his arm? Okay led with his arm.
posted on 1/3/21
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 19 seconds ago
comment by red_evils (U19878)
posted 6 minutes ago
If you say Greenwood pushed CHO arm toward the ball, then I can see the same argument applied in WBA incident. They made a mess of a rule. Doesn't matter how long you stare at the VAR screen, you cannot give the correct answer when you don't know what the correct answer would be.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure how you can say the Brighton player, who was ahead of Okay, pushed his arm? Okay led with his arm.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
See my screenshot in the above post. Not pushing, but clearly there should be doubt about the handball if you say CHO incident isn't one
posted on 1/3/21
I have seen the video, rather than a screenshot. Okay leads with his arm. His arm is well above shoulder level well before he even contacts his opponent, see about 40 seconds into this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyEC_mA1NCY
Okay loses his man, panics and puts his arm up.
The CHO, Greenwood one is different, they are fighting for a 50/50, both put their arms out and it is only because Greenwoods arm pushes CHO's up that contact is made by CHO's hand - and then Greenwoods.
posted on 1/3/21
Ok, I don't agree with it but I'm not here to make an argument about it. Read the handball rule as currently stated:
The hand/arm is clearly away from the body and outside the "body line".
The player clearly leans into the path of the ball.
The ball travels some distance.
The ball touches a hand/arm that is clearly raised above the shoulder.
The player falls and the hand/arm is extended laterally or vertically away from the body.
A deflection clearly makes no difference to the ball touching a hand/arm that is clearly extended away from the body and/or above the shoulder.
Immediately after touching the ball with the arm, even accidentally, the player scores a goal or creates a goal-scoring opportunity.
posted on 1/3/21
VAR is useful for goal-line decisions - over the line or not. Otherwise accept the in-play decision of the ref. Get rid of VAR. It is counterproductive, and appears to cause more problems than it solves. Referees seem to be frightened of doing their job and making a decision because of VAR, knowing that the broadcaster will show many angles that the ref can't possibly see.
I am not a professional referee, and there are far more financial implications of a "bad decision" than there used to be. How long will it be before we have no officials on the pitch and everything is ruled by guys watching tv screens. Give the authority back to the man in black. If a PL ref needs to check a tv replay he is not fit for the job.
posted on 1/3/21
VAR is useful for goal-line decisions - over the line or not.
=====
Something VAR isn't used for
posted on 1/3/21
The handball rule wasn't an issue before VAR. Jus sayin
posted on 1/3/21
comment by Bãles left boot (U22081)
posted 1 hour, 50 minutes ago
The handball rule wasn't an issue before VAR. Jus sayin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The current handball rule wasn't the handball rule before VAR and the guidance certainly didn't change halfway through a season.
posted on 1/3/21
Thanks. What's your point?
posted on 1/3/21
comment by Bãles left boot (U22081)
posted 36 minutes ago
Thanks. What's your point?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't it obvious?
posted on 1/3/21
No.
posted on 2/3/21
comment by Bãles left boot (U22081)
posted 3 hours, 33 minutes ago
No.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's quite obvious he meant the handball rule only came to affect this season, so your conspiracy theory about VAR doesn't work.
As I said, doesn't matter how long you look at the replay, you can't have the answer if we don't know what the correct answer would be.
I just heard Rio youtube stream which he suggested to put the mic to the ref, the way rugby are using. I think that's a good move. Won't fix the current broken rule though
posted on 2/3/21
What conspiracy theory? I honestly don't know what you're talking about.
posted on 2/3/21
My point was that introducing VAR has necessitated rule changes where they weren't needed. Taking us further from how the game has always been played for no good reason other than some strange desire to reduce every decision in the game to a binary yes or no, regardless whether it makes sense in that context or not.
It's not a conspiracy, it's the inevitable end game when you put people who don't really understand or care for the sport in charge of it.
We've lost sight of what's important, and changing more rules because VAR doesn't work is only taking us further from the game we all love.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti change. But change should be better. And you can blame the officials all you like but there's always going to be people and some level of subjectivity involved.. if you can't make peace with that you're better off playing FM than watching football.
posted on 2/3/21
BTW what does miking up the ref actually solve? It'll just wind up people even more when they disagree with the decision.
The solution is to stop obsessing over every decision being 'correct'. It's not making the game better, and frankly it's impossible.
posted on 2/3/21
VAR is also the problem, not the system itself, but the communication of the decision.
If we used the rugby system the ref would be speaking to the VAR and everyone could hear it. You would then be able to hear the reasoning which makes the decision for the fans much easier to understand and accept.
Because football reffing is often a game of judgement, to be able to hear reasoning is so much better.
If you could hear the ref speaking with the VAR and saying "yes, i can seen the ball has hit his hand but it is not deliberate, it has not changed the outcome as Greenwood still has the ball, and maybe Greenwoods arm is pushing the defenders arm up a bit...I am happy to not give a penalty" at least you could understand his arguments. Again its a game of judgements and sometimes fans need to accept that not everyone will form the same judgement but at least they can have a chance at understanding an explanation of the decision, rather than having no explanation at all.
Others also need to take some responsibly , such as managers & players, and moderate their comments after the game. Big surprise that the United lot thought it was a pen. but there is no need to go bleating about it in the media because the decision was not that clear cut.
posted on 2/3/21
VAR has it own problem, I'm not disagree with that. My problem as in the title, they need to revert that handball rule asap. Just leave it to the ref to decide if the handball is intentional or not. It's not just United thought it was a pen. Alan Shearer on MOTD also said it should be a pen based on the law.
posted on 2/3/21
Should be noted that refs are mic'd up already. I just isn't broadcast.
The older ones of us will surely remember Paul Durkin coming out and explaining not giving a blatant penalty to Newcastle against Man United. A lot of people had sympathy for him, but how long will that last if refs are making excuses week after week. Exposing their incompetence won't help and I think that is why they don't allow the conversations to be aired.
posted on 2/3/21
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 42 minutes ago
Should be noted that refs are mic'd up already. I just isn't broadcast.
The older ones of us will surely remember Paul Durkin coming out and explaining not giving a blatant penalty to Newcastle against Man United. A lot of people had sympathy for him, but how long will that last if refs are making excuses week after week. Exposing their incompetence won't help and I think that is why they don't allow the conversations to be aired.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. They are still getting to grips with new processes they have to follow and whilst they are doing this, they're not going to air it.
Look at the Wales and England rugby game. They came out and stated that mistakes were made. The discussion going on with the referee didn't help anything.
Page 1 of 2