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The Fred paradox

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posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

comment by Roy's Keane (U11635)
posted 2 minutes ago
Was mentioned on sky yesterday that hes had 86 shots on goal since he signed and he has scored 2 goals.
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Bet that’s quicker to two goals than Anderson.

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

For a professional footballer or so, he falls on his backside too often. His shorts also seem a size too big for him. The first half, he was dreadful, second half like everyone else, he came alive

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

comment by _Viva_Vida (U6044)
posted 55 minutes ago
I don't know what to make of him. Keane was right last night saying he was dreadful up until the goal.
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THIS
to say anything otherwise is backwards rationalisation

he was bad but the role he plays is very important if this makes any sense. we need someone with the energy he has to get stuck in but better

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

if pogba didn't have his best game i've seen him play for you i would have given fred the motm.
seems like a nice guy too.

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

It's great that the player nicknamed "Pastor" can't even pastor his teammates half the time.

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

comment by Clockwork Red (U4892)
posted 3 minutes ago
It's great that the player nicknamed "Pastor" can't even pastor his teammates half the time.
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posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

He’s a better player than some give him credit for, but he’s inconsistent, as RR has highlighted, and we have problems with him in and out of possession.

He’s probably our biggest issue when we’re pressing, because a) he doesn’t read when we’re going to use the press well, b) when we do engage, he’s slow to read how play is going to develop, and c) he doesn’t make good decisions about when to close players down and when to sit off and wait.

We use a relatively complicated press - it’s situational, so the players (usually led by Bruno) decide when to employ it, and we use a zonal approach in determining which oppositional players to pick up - and I think that probably doesn’t help him.

When he does make the right decision about engaging, he has fantastic acceleration and really sharp feet, so he is able to make a good number of interceptions and tackles, which is a large part of the reason why he still puts up decent figures in terms of breaking up opposition play. It’s too often we see him stand off too far and let a promising press drop or choose the wrong time to gamble and see an opposition midfielder bypass him and launch a counter.

On the ball, his passing is still just too inconsistent. He’s OK at close quarters, but even over middle distances he just isn’t accurate enough really and there’s little creativity in his passing.

He does seem to work well with McT though, and in the big games, the midfield two picks itself.

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

comment by rosso - can’t waste a day when the night brings a hearse (U17054)
posted 34 seconds ago
He’s a better player than some give him credit for, but he’s inconsistent, as RR has highlighted, and we have problems with him in and out of possession.

He’s probably our biggest issue when we’re pressing, because a) he doesn’t read when we’re going to use the press well, b) when we do engage, he’s slow to read how play is going to develop, and c) he doesn’t make good decisions about when to close players down and when to sit off and wait.

We use a relatively complicated press - it’s situational, so the players (usually led by Bruno) decide when to employ it, and we use a zonal approach in determining which oppositional players to pick up - and I think that probably doesn’t help him.

When he does make the right decision about engaging, he has fantastic acceleration and really sharp feet, so he is able to make a good number of interceptions and tackles, which is a large part of the reason why he still puts up decent figures in terms of breaking up opposition play. It’s too often we see him stand off too far and let a promising press drop or choose the wrong time to gamble and see an opposition midfielder bypass him and launch a counter.

On the ball, his passing is still just too inconsistent. He’s OK at close quarters, but even over middle distances he just isn’t accurate enough really and there’s little creativity in his passing.

He does seem to work well with McT though, and in the big games, the midfield two picks itself.
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Pretty sure I summed this up with Brazilian Jay Spearimg didn't i?

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

comment by Robbing Cromwell - agent of the hierarchy. (U6374)
posted 17 seconds ago
comment by rosso - can’t waste a day when the night brings a hearse (U17054)
posted 34 seconds ago
He’s a better player than some give him credit for, but he’s inconsistent, as RR has highlighted, and we have problems with him in and out of possession.

He’s probably our biggest issue when we’re pressing, because a) he doesn’t read when we’re going to use the press well, b) when we do engage, he’s slow to read how play is going to develop, and c) he doesn’t make good decisions about when to close players down and when to sit off and wait.

We use a relatively complicated press - it’s situational, so the players (usually led by Bruno) decide when to employ it, and we use a zonal approach in determining which oppositional players to pick up - and I think that probably doesn’t help him.

When he does make the right decision about engaging, he has fantastic acceleration and really sharp feet, so he is able to make a good number of interceptions and tackles, which is a large part of the reason why he still puts up decent figures in terms of breaking up opposition play. It’s too often we see him stand off too far and let a promising press drop or choose the wrong time to gamble and see an opposition midfielder bypass him and launch a counter.

On the ball, his passing is still just too inconsistent. He’s OK at close quarters, but even over middle distances he just isn’t accurate enough really and there’s little creativity in his passing.

He does seem to work well with McT though, and in the big games, the midfield two picks itself.
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Pretty sure I summed this up with Brazilian Jay Spearimg didn't i?
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I don’t know enough about Jay Spearing, but I’m feeling generous today Robbing, so I’m going to say maybe

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

A fine analysis as always rosso

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

I burst out laughing when Neville said he had a good game. He was god awful. Started a good move for
His goal though tbf to him

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

rosso, it’s similar to Kante playing under Lampard vs Kante playing under Conte and Tuchel - the latter are better coaches, so the team’s pressing is more coordinated and the holes that are left when the player plays such in such aggressive manner, become less of an issue when the team is set up to cater for it.

Maguire’s lack of acceleration and aggression behind doesn’t help either. He just doesn’t play in the manner that can fill those spaces that Fred leaves. Matic probably works better from a positional sense, despite being slow as well, as he plays in a similar manner to Maguire.

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

comment by Shola The Ameobi Shoretire (U10026)
posted 8 minutes ago
rosso, it’s similar to Kante playing under Lampard vs Kante playing under Conte and Tuchel - the latter are better coaches, so the team’s pressing is more coordinated and the holes that are left when the player plays such in such aggressive manner, become less of an issue when the team is set up to cater for it.

Maguire’s lack of acceleration and aggression behind doesn’t help either. He just doesn’t play in the manner that can fill those spaces that Fred leaves. Matic probably works better from a positional sense, despite being slow as well, as he plays in a similar manner to Maguire.
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Because we go man-for-man, that wouldn’t always be possible for Maguire to do even if he were quick enough, particularly in those instances when Fred is beaten by his target. Maguire will usually have the movements of the opposition forwards to worry about.

To be clear, I don’t have a problem with our midfield gambling with the press: I’d rather we engaged a little too often (read: more) than too little. Sometime you’re gonna be beaten and allow a counter/overloading situation, but that’s part of the risk/reward trade-off. It just happens proportionally too often with Fred.

Sometimes I wonder if we’d actually be better off using a zonal full press rather than the situational press given that some of our players still struggle with the latter but I don’t know if we’re fit enough or, even assuming we are, the additional burn would actually benefit or hinder us (particularly this season with the games coming thick and fast).

The press has improved. I think that’s unarguable. By how much is obviously a debate. I do wonder if some of our players have the brain for it though, Fred in particular.

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

comment by Shola The Ameobi Shoretire (U10026)
posted 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
Those stats aren’t that surprising. He usually make the most ball recoveries on the team and completes a lot of passes.
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How many recoveries from his own inexplicable feck ups though?!

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

Look, he scored. So his Fredemption is complete.
We have nobody else, so we just gotta back him, and pray he doesn’t get sent off.
Actually that impressed me more that McFred both stayed on the pitch, considering the cheating wimps that are the Spurs players!

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

But it becomes an issue on counters when Maguire’s lack of pace means he can’t push into that space. He has to back off because it leaves him exposed. This happens when Maguire isn’t marking a cb. It’s just an issue with the way he plays.

I think the bigger issue is the organisation of the team and Maguire’s limitations, than Fred not understanding when to press or not.

Look at when we play the big games and sit deep and compact. Fred’s usually one of our best players, and he’s not leaving spaces all over the place as we’re compact with a deep line.

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

If he could stop the long range passing and long range shooting he could be a very good player.

I like him but he’s too erratic to be playing every week if we want to reach an elite level.

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

comment by Shola The Ameobi Shoretire (U10026)
posted 10 minutes ago
But it becomes an issue on counters when Maguire’s lack of pace means he can’t push into that space. He has to back off because it leaves him exposed. This happens when Maguire isn’t marking a cb. It’s just an issue with the way he plays.

I think the bigger issue is the organisation of the team and Maguire’s limitations, than Fred not understanding when to press or not.

Look at when we play the big games and sit deep and compact. Fred’s usually one of our best players, and he’s not leaving spaces all over the place as we’re compact with a deep line.
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I haven’t noticed it as a particularly serious issue specifically when Fred has pushed onto the opposition DM when we’re running the situational press, to be honest, but Maguire’s lack of pace is obviously a limiting factor in terms of what we’re able to do with the press. We couldn’t run a full-team, high block full press, like Liverpool have, certainly.

But with the situational press, given we only ever really run it in the opposition’s defensive third and we certainly don’t ever use a high block, I don’t know how much of an (active) issue it is. I’ll keep an eye out for that

I thought we defended pretty well yesterday actually. We still need to work on defending with the ball, in particular, which we are usually absolutely diabolical at, but we even did that relatively well against Spurs.

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

Fred is a left over from some really poor transfer business of the last 5 years. He would have been a waste if not for Ole giving him some redemption. He is an average midfielder with immense work rate and tenacity. In the grand scheme of things, we have lacked this characteristic in midfield since Herrera left, and every midfield needs it (along with decent passing).

He is average, and we are doing our best with what we have. With some good management he is not completely awful. He is a starting midfielder for the second team in the league, a player I wonder will make any of the top 5 midfield.

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

It’s the issue of keeping the lines closer together, and keeping compact, which is why we generally defend at our best when we play the biggest teams - structurally and individually.

It’s just an issue of organisation and complimentary players to make that organisation easier to attain. You can point all of McTominay, Fred, Maguire, Shaw, AWB and Lindelof and say they’ve played well under Ole defensively. But it just isn’t coming together as well as we need.

Though De Gea being rooted to his line doesn’t help. I’m still unsure on Henderson as a future number one for a club like United, but he’s shown some promise sweeping up behind the defence since playing and that can only help Maguire and Lindelof to keep a line that’s more compact with the rest of the team.

A few signings down the middle of the pitch can make a big difference to this team, regardless of the organisation anyway. Some more complimentary players, and outright better quality players, will make a big difference.

But that’ll depend upon us getting the right players. We’ve not addressed those areas adequately enough, and have neglected it in the case of the midfield.

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

The thing for me is that his best qualities are what we should be expecting from every United player tbh so whilst I do like the fella and he currently adds something to our midfield both terrible and good. He’s not good enough if we want to get back to and stay at the top.

I think our standards are slipping a little.

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

We need him because Bruno is out of form, and is losing the ball à lot, and somebody has to tidy up

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

We need two new central midfielders that compliment each other if we want to get back to, and stay at, the top.

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 7 minutes ago
We need him because Bruno is out of form, and is losing the ball à lot, and somebody has to tidy up
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Unfortunately we also need someone to do even more tidying up after Fred

Agree with the sentiment of this thread... Good to have in the squad. Too bad we paid what we did for him....

posted 3 weeks, 4 days ago

Sometimes Fred shows up and some times Derf shows up.

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