Comment deleted by Site Moderator
awaiting to see what sanction the PL impose on the 6 scambags, if any
Let's hope so! They will be an example to all current and future owners to spend within their means.
Real will probably be bailed out by the state as per usual however. Hate their fans and the way they are run anyway so couldn't care less.
comment by RtM - The Tuchel Evolution (U1097)
posted 15 seconds ago
Just how loose are they?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
agreed
No one will ever believe a word Perez says again, after claiming all the superleague clubs couldn't leave the group.
The Americans I always knew were in it for the $ and didn't understand the game but for someone from Europe to try to and pull the wool over the publics eyes with such nonsense...he's done.
Could be a blessing though if some of these owners consider selling up. Be a good time for us to adopt the German ownership model I think
comment by Whitehotlanespur (U9832)
posted 5 minutes ago
awaiting to see what sanction the PL impose on the 6 scambags, if any
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they shouldnt impose anything on the clubs.
its the owners who are to blame here, not the clubs.
punishing the clubs would be punishing the players and fans who have done nothing wrong
comment by Whitehotlanespur (U9832)
posted 9 seconds ago
awaiting to see what sanction the PL impose on the 6 scambags, if any
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope there are not any. They tried to do what is best for them but saw sense and u turned.
Why should they be punished ?
To appease the likes of sky presenters like Neville and Carragher ?
Neville once defended the Glazers a few years ago and look at the amount of money they have spent on getting Salford where they are today. His and his millionaire mate along with billionaire Peter Lim.
The guy's ego is out of control and he voices his opinions on Sky who started the greed in football 30 yrs ago lol.
Watch this clip by John Barnes who sums everything up perfectly :
https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1384763514837942275?s=20
comment by dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
posted 24 seconds ago
comment by Whitehotlanespur (U9832)
posted 5 minutes ago
awaiting to see what sanction the PL impose on the 6 scambags, if any
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they shouldnt impose anything on the clubs.
its the owners who are to blame here, not the clubs.
punishing the clubs would be punishing the players and fans who have done nothing wrong
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Spot on.
I think Perez comes out looking like the biggest mug on the back of all of this.
comment by Whitehotlanespur (U9832)
posted 7 minutes ago
awaiting to see what sanction the PL impose on the 6 scambags, if any
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn`t mind seeing them all get relegated, but we know absolutely nothing will happen. Sky will tell them to leave the six clubs alone.
I would still watch Spurs if they were in the Conference, so would make absolutely no difference to me. Be interesting though if they did get chucked down a few divisions, to see how many of the modern supporters vanished overnight.
comment by FootyMcfootfoot (U21853)
posted 8 minutes ago
No one will ever believe a word Perez says again, after claiming all the superleague clubs couldn't leave the group.
The Americans I always knew were in it for the $ and didn't understand the game but for someone from Europe to try to and pull the wool over the publics eyes with such nonsense...he's done.
Could be a blessing though if some of these owners consider selling up. Be a good time for us to adopt the German ownership model I think
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who is ever going to consider buying a football club during a pandemic, where they will have to lay out a couple of billion, and will then be losing money hand over fist. I don`t actually think a businessman has ever existed that would do that.
Sorry, but all the clubs are stuck with what they have.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by GTWI4T- some people deserve to get trolled (U6008)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Sut mine klunker - Admin 5 (U1250)
posted 5 minutes ago
I think Perez comes out looking like the biggest mug on the back of all of this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't wait to hear what he has to say after telling the world that clubs couldn't pull out only for less than 24 hours later, six clubs pulling out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agnelli from Juve just came out saying the project is gone now.
comment by dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Whitehotlanespur (U9832)
posted 5 minutes ago
awaiting to see what sanction the PL impose on the 6 scambags, if any
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they shouldnt impose anything on the clubs.
its the owners who are to blame here, not the clubs.
punishing the clubs would be punishing the players and fans who have done nothing wrong
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonsense. None of these clubs care about all the fans of Bury, Portsmouth, Coventry, Birmingham, Bolton etc when they are docked points for going into administration. That is never the fans or players faults, but they get punished then because of the owners and all these clubs are happy to be part of that system. The FFP system openly promotes that kind of punishment for breaking the rules.
Just because these are bigger clubs, doesn't mean that they should be exempt from punishment. Points deductions and European football bans are all more than fair punishment, in line with what other clubs will get for breaking any rules. Fans of these clubs do not have a given right to European football. Their clubs will still play in the league and they can still support.
Any failure to properly punish these clubs will result in this happening again in the future. We already had project big picture before this. The people behind this are not sorry they upset fans, they are sorry the fans didn't go with them.
Understand Spurs total debt is £1.17b which is the real reason why they wanted (along with the rest) wanted to join the ESL.
https://tothelaneandback.com/2021/02/10/daniel-levy-faces-massive-1-17billion-debt-after-tottenham-stadium-construction/
comment by sandy, Super League here we come, Ryan Mason our new boss (U20567)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by FootyMcfootfoot (U21853)
posted 8 minutes ago
No one will ever believe a word Perez says again, after claiming all the superleague clubs couldn't leave the group.
The Americans I always knew were in it for the $ and didn't understand the game but for someone from Europe to try to and pull the wool over the publics eyes with such nonsense...he's done.
Could be a blessing though if some of these owners consider selling up. Be a good time for us to adopt the German ownership model I think
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who is ever going to consider buying a football club during a pandemic, where they will have to lay out a couple of billion, and will then be losing money hand over fist. I don`t actually think a businessman has ever existed that would do that.
Sorry, but all the clubs are stuck with what they have.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Short term yes but now they have made it clear they would be prepared to ruin football to line their pockets their ownership could become increasingly uncomfortable in the future.
Covid and the super league collapse will really have them worrying as income suffers and their 'awesome' cash cow has been obliterated overnight.
The question is will most these owners want to splash out more cash for signings after they have tried to convince fans they needed this to survive? Nope.
Will that make fans hate them even more than they do right now? Yes.
Will this ruin their enthusiasm and interest in their investment when there are so many other things they can stick their $ into? I think so.
The snowball has started and I only see it getting bigger as these figures, that usually operate out the spotlight, are now centre of attention for all the wrong reasons.
All superleague managers have got fan immunity overnight 😅 the owners will be blamed for everything for quite some time I feel.
comment by sandy, Super League here we come, Ryan Mason our new boss (U20567)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by FootyMcfootfoot (U21853)
posted 8 minutes ago
No one will ever believe a word Perez says again, after claiming all the superleague clubs couldn't leave the group.
The Americans I always knew were in it for the $ and didn't understand the game but for someone from Europe to try to and pull the wool over the publics eyes with such nonsense...he's done.
Could be a blessing though if some of these owners consider selling up. Be a good time for us to adopt the German ownership model I think
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who is ever going to consider buying a football club during a pandemic, where they will have to lay out a couple of billion, and will then be losing money hand over fist. I don`t actually think a businessman has ever existed that would do that.
Sorry, but all the clubs are stuck with what they have.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Your opinions and views are worthless Sandy after you spent the last few weeks adament Jose would still be our manager next season.
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Whitehotlanespur (U9832)
posted 5 minutes ago
awaiting to see what sanction the PL impose on the 6 scambags, if any
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they shouldnt impose anything on the clubs.
its the owners who are to blame here, not the clubs.
punishing the clubs would be punishing the players and fans who have done nothing wrong
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonsense. None of these clubs care about all the fans of Bury, Portsmouth, Coventry, Birmingham, Bolton etc when they are docked points for going into administration. That is never the fans or players faults, but they get punished then because of the owners and all these clubs are happy to be part of that system. The FFP system openly promotes that kind of punishment for breaking the rules.
Just because these are bigger clubs, doesn't mean that they should be exempt from punishment. Points deductions and European football bans are all more than fair punishment, in line with what other clubs will get for breaking any rules. Fans of these clubs do not have a given right to European football. Their clubs will still play in the league and they can still support.
Any failure to properly punish these clubs will result in this happening again in the future. We already had project big picture before this. The people behind this are not sorry they upset fans, they are sorry the fans didn't go with them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What rules did they break?
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by ttliv87 (U11882)
posted 44 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 59 seconds ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Whitehotlanespur (U9832)
posted 5 minutes ago
awaiting to see what sanction the PL impose on the 6 scambags, if any
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they shouldnt impose anything on the clubs.
its the owners who are to blame here, not the clubs.
punishing the clubs would be punishing the players and fans who have done nothing wrong
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonsense. None of these clubs care about all the fans of Bury, Portsmouth, Coventry, Birmingham, Bolton etc when they are docked points for going into administration. That is never the fans or players faults, but they get punished then because of the owners and all these clubs are happy to be part of that system. The FFP system openly promotes that kind of punishment for breaking the rules.
Just because these are bigger clubs, doesn't mean that they should be exempt from punishment. Points deductions and European football bans are all more than fair punishment, in line with what other clubs will get for breaking any rules. Fans of these clubs do not have a given right to European football. Their clubs will still play in the league and they can still support.
Any failure to properly punish these clubs will result in this happening again in the future. We already had project big picture before this. The people behind this are not sorry they upset fans, they are sorry the fans didn't go with them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What rules did they break?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the bringing the game into disrepute rule would cover this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that a rule?
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 7 minutes ago
What rules did they break?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Premier League manual says:
'L.9.Except with the prior written approval of the Board, during the Season a Club shall not enter or play its senior men’s first team in any competition other than:
L.9.1. the UEFA Champions League;
L.9.2. the UEFA Europa League;
L.9.3. the F.A. Cup;
L.9.4. the F.A. Community Shield;
L.9.5. the Football League Cup;
OrL.9.6. competitions sanctioned by the County Association of which it is a member'
They broke this rule as soon as they signed the contract to join another competition without permission from the FA.
comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? Percy Pig aficio... (U3126)
posted 21 minutes ago
Understand Spurs total debt is £1.17b which is the real reason why they wanted (along with the rest) wanted to join the ESL.
https://tothelaneandback.com/2021/02/10/daniel-levy-faces-massive-1-17billion-debt-after-tottenham-stadium-construction/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It could be really crippling this debt. In typical Spursiness fashion, the new ground was built at exactly the wrong time. Who would have guessed it would be shut down a year after opening with absolutely no revenue coming in.
I am afraid Spurs will be in the wilderness for a bit now, until they get this debt down to manageable levels. There will be no spending big on managers, no expensive players coming in, but lots of the better players leaving I suspect.
I can live with that. Better the club survives in the long run, a bit of short term pain aint going to hurt.
No doubt lots of our supporters will be up in arms though if Spurs don`t spend big in the coming couple of seasons.
Sign in if you want to comment
the biggest losers from this saga..
Page 1 of 2
posted on 21/4/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 21/4/21
awaiting to see what sanction the PL impose on the 6 scambags, if any
posted on 21/4/21
Let's hope so! They will be an example to all current and future owners to spend within their means.
Real will probably be bailed out by the state as per usual however. Hate their fans and the way they are run anyway so couldn't care less.
posted on 21/4/21
Just how loose are they?
posted on 21/4/21
comment by RtM - The Tuchel Evolution (U1097)
posted 15 seconds ago
Just how loose are they?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
agreed
posted on 21/4/21
No one will ever believe a word Perez says again, after claiming all the superleague clubs couldn't leave the group.
The Americans I always knew were in it for the $ and didn't understand the game but for someone from Europe to try to and pull the wool over the publics eyes with such nonsense...he's done.
Could be a blessing though if some of these owners consider selling up. Be a good time for us to adopt the German ownership model I think
posted on 21/4/21
comment by Whitehotlanespur (U9832)
posted 5 minutes ago
awaiting to see what sanction the PL impose on the 6 scambags, if any
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they shouldnt impose anything on the clubs.
its the owners who are to blame here, not the clubs.
punishing the clubs would be punishing the players and fans who have done nothing wrong
posted on 21/4/21
comment by Whitehotlanespur (U9832)
posted 9 seconds ago
awaiting to see what sanction the PL impose on the 6 scambags, if any
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope there are not any. They tried to do what is best for them but saw sense and u turned.
Why should they be punished ?
To appease the likes of sky presenters like Neville and Carragher ?
Neville once defended the Glazers a few years ago and look at the amount of money they have spent on getting Salford where they are today. His and his millionaire mate along with billionaire Peter Lim.
The guy's ego is out of control and he voices his opinions on Sky who started the greed in football 30 yrs ago lol.
Watch this clip by John Barnes who sums everything up perfectly :
https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1384763514837942275?s=20
posted on 21/4/21
comment by dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
posted 24 seconds ago
comment by Whitehotlanespur (U9832)
posted 5 minutes ago
awaiting to see what sanction the PL impose on the 6 scambags, if any
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they shouldnt impose anything on the clubs.
its the owners who are to blame here, not the clubs.
punishing the clubs would be punishing the players and fans who have done nothing wrong
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Spot on.
posted on 21/4/21
I think Perez comes out looking like the biggest mug on the back of all of this.
posted on 21/4/21
Loose Women?
posted on 21/4/21
comment by Whitehotlanespur (U9832)
posted 7 minutes ago
awaiting to see what sanction the PL impose on the 6 scambags, if any
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn`t mind seeing them all get relegated, but we know absolutely nothing will happen. Sky will tell them to leave the six clubs alone.
I would still watch Spurs if they were in the Conference, so would make absolutely no difference to me. Be interesting though if they did get chucked down a few divisions, to see how many of the modern supporters vanished overnight.
posted on 21/4/21
comment by FootyMcfootfoot (U21853)
posted 8 minutes ago
No one will ever believe a word Perez says again, after claiming all the superleague clubs couldn't leave the group.
The Americans I always knew were in it for the $ and didn't understand the game but for someone from Europe to try to and pull the wool over the publics eyes with such nonsense...he's done.
Could be a blessing though if some of these owners consider selling up. Be a good time for us to adopt the German ownership model I think
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who is ever going to consider buying a football club during a pandemic, where they will have to lay out a couple of billion, and will then be losing money hand over fist. I don`t actually think a businessman has ever existed that would do that.
Sorry, but all the clubs are stuck with what they have.
posted on 21/4/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 21/4/21
comment by GTWI4T- some people deserve to get trolled (U6008)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Sut mine klunker - Admin 5 (U1250)
posted 5 minutes ago
I think Perez comes out looking like the biggest mug on the back of all of this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't wait to hear what he has to say after telling the world that clubs couldn't pull out only for less than 24 hours later, six clubs pulling out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agnelli from Juve just came out saying the project is gone now.
posted on 21/4/21
comment by dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Whitehotlanespur (U9832)
posted 5 minutes ago
awaiting to see what sanction the PL impose on the 6 scambags, if any
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they shouldnt impose anything on the clubs.
its the owners who are to blame here, not the clubs.
punishing the clubs would be punishing the players and fans who have done nothing wrong
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonsense. None of these clubs care about all the fans of Bury, Portsmouth, Coventry, Birmingham, Bolton etc when they are docked points for going into administration. That is never the fans or players faults, but they get punished then because of the owners and all these clubs are happy to be part of that system. The FFP system openly promotes that kind of punishment for breaking the rules.
Just because these are bigger clubs, doesn't mean that they should be exempt from punishment. Points deductions and European football bans are all more than fair punishment, in line with what other clubs will get for breaking any rules. Fans of these clubs do not have a given right to European football. Their clubs will still play in the league and they can still support.
Any failure to properly punish these clubs will result in this happening again in the future. We already had project big picture before this. The people behind this are not sorry they upset fans, they are sorry the fans didn't go with them.
posted on 21/4/21
Losers
posted on 21/4/21
Understand Spurs total debt is £1.17b which is the real reason why they wanted (along with the rest) wanted to join the ESL.
https://tothelaneandback.com/2021/02/10/daniel-levy-faces-massive-1-17billion-debt-after-tottenham-stadium-construction/
posted on 21/4/21
comment by sandy, Super League here we come, Ryan Mason our new boss (U20567)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by FootyMcfootfoot (U21853)
posted 8 minutes ago
No one will ever believe a word Perez says again, after claiming all the superleague clubs couldn't leave the group.
The Americans I always knew were in it for the $ and didn't understand the game but for someone from Europe to try to and pull the wool over the publics eyes with such nonsense...he's done.
Could be a blessing though if some of these owners consider selling up. Be a good time for us to adopt the German ownership model I think
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who is ever going to consider buying a football club during a pandemic, where they will have to lay out a couple of billion, and will then be losing money hand over fist. I don`t actually think a businessman has ever existed that would do that.
Sorry, but all the clubs are stuck with what they have.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Short term yes but now they have made it clear they would be prepared to ruin football to line their pockets their ownership could become increasingly uncomfortable in the future.
Covid and the super league collapse will really have them worrying as income suffers and their 'awesome' cash cow has been obliterated overnight.
The question is will most these owners want to splash out more cash for signings after they have tried to convince fans they needed this to survive? Nope.
Will that make fans hate them even more than they do right now? Yes.
Will this ruin their enthusiasm and interest in their investment when there are so many other things they can stick their $ into? I think so.
The snowball has started and I only see it getting bigger as these figures, that usually operate out the spotlight, are now centre of attention for all the wrong reasons.
All superleague managers have got fan immunity overnight 😅 the owners will be blamed for everything for quite some time I feel.
posted on 21/4/21
comment by sandy, Super League here we come, Ryan Mason our new boss (U20567)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by FootyMcfootfoot (U21853)
posted 8 minutes ago
No one will ever believe a word Perez says again, after claiming all the superleague clubs couldn't leave the group.
The Americans I always knew were in it for the $ and didn't understand the game but for someone from Europe to try to and pull the wool over the publics eyes with such nonsense...he's done.
Could be a blessing though if some of these owners consider selling up. Be a good time for us to adopt the German ownership model I think
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who is ever going to consider buying a football club during a pandemic, where they will have to lay out a couple of billion, and will then be losing money hand over fist. I don`t actually think a businessman has ever existed that would do that.
Sorry, but all the clubs are stuck with what they have.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Your opinions and views are worthless Sandy after you spent the last few weeks adament Jose would still be our manager next season.
posted on 21/4/21
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Whitehotlanespur (U9832)
posted 5 minutes ago
awaiting to see what sanction the PL impose on the 6 scambags, if any
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they shouldnt impose anything on the clubs.
its the owners who are to blame here, not the clubs.
punishing the clubs would be punishing the players and fans who have done nothing wrong
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonsense. None of these clubs care about all the fans of Bury, Portsmouth, Coventry, Birmingham, Bolton etc when they are docked points for going into administration. That is never the fans or players faults, but they get punished then because of the owners and all these clubs are happy to be part of that system. The FFP system openly promotes that kind of punishment for breaking the rules.
Just because these are bigger clubs, doesn't mean that they should be exempt from punishment. Points deductions and European football bans are all more than fair punishment, in line with what other clubs will get for breaking any rules. Fans of these clubs do not have a given right to European football. Their clubs will still play in the league and they can still support.
Any failure to properly punish these clubs will result in this happening again in the future. We already had project big picture before this. The people behind this are not sorry they upset fans, they are sorry the fans didn't go with them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What rules did they break?
posted on 21/4/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 21/4/21
comment by ttliv87 (U11882)
posted 44 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 59 seconds ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by dunc manson... you must follow ole... you must follow ole (U11713)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Whitehotlanespur (U9832)
posted 5 minutes ago
awaiting to see what sanction the PL impose on the 6 scambags, if any
----------------------------------------------------------------------
they shouldnt impose anything on the clubs.
its the owners who are to blame here, not the clubs.
punishing the clubs would be punishing the players and fans who have done nothing wrong
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonsense. None of these clubs care about all the fans of Bury, Portsmouth, Coventry, Birmingham, Bolton etc when they are docked points for going into administration. That is never the fans or players faults, but they get punished then because of the owners and all these clubs are happy to be part of that system. The FFP system openly promotes that kind of punishment for breaking the rules.
Just because these are bigger clubs, doesn't mean that they should be exempt from punishment. Points deductions and European football bans are all more than fair punishment, in line with what other clubs will get for breaking any rules. Fans of these clubs do not have a given right to European football. Their clubs will still play in the league and they can still support.
Any failure to properly punish these clubs will result in this happening again in the future. We already had project big picture before this. The people behind this are not sorry they upset fans, they are sorry the fans didn't go with them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What rules did they break?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the bringing the game into disrepute rule would cover this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that a rule?
posted on 21/4/21
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 7 minutes ago
What rules did they break?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Premier League manual says:
'L.9.Except with the prior written approval of the Board, during the Season a Club shall not enter or play its senior men’s first team in any competition other than:
L.9.1. the UEFA Champions League;
L.9.2. the UEFA Europa League;
L.9.3. the F.A. Cup;
L.9.4. the F.A. Community Shield;
L.9.5. the Football League Cup;
OrL.9.6. competitions sanctioned by the County Association of which it is a member'
They broke this rule as soon as they signed the contract to join another competition without permission from the FA.
posted on 21/4/21
comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? Percy Pig aficio... (U3126)
posted 21 minutes ago
Understand Spurs total debt is £1.17b which is the real reason why they wanted (along with the rest) wanted to join the ESL.
https://tothelaneandback.com/2021/02/10/daniel-levy-faces-massive-1-17billion-debt-after-tottenham-stadium-construction/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It could be really crippling this debt. In typical Spursiness fashion, the new ground was built at exactly the wrong time. Who would have guessed it would be shut down a year after opening with absolutely no revenue coming in.
I am afraid Spurs will be in the wilderness for a bit now, until they get this debt down to manageable levels. There will be no spending big on managers, no expensive players coming in, but lots of the better players leaving I suspect.
I can live with that. Better the club survives in the long run, a bit of short term pain aint going to hurt.
No doubt lots of our supporters will be up in arms though if Spurs don`t spend big in the coming couple of seasons.
Page 1 of 2