At least some reward from this match!
VC, I don't know how many goals Lawrence has scored this season, he has been injured for much of it. I don't "rely" on him to save our season, but the goal he scored recently showed what he is at least capable of, a goal out of nothing. It's not much to pin hopes on, I agree, but what else is there?
I still think we look more likely to concede with Lawrence in the team. He's scored some goals, but also been responsible for many and cost us points, much like Waghorn.
comment by 9earchange (U16914)
posted 15 minutes ago
I still think we look more likely to concede with Lawrence in the team. He's scored some goals, but also been responsible for many and cost us points, much like Waghorn.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Last two goals he's scored have resulted in a grand total of nil points, (despite one being a worldie).
Just saying .............
Don’t quite understand that logic Scouse. Are you saying that scoring goals is not something we should be trying to do? Should we blame Kazim for scoring on Saturday because it caused us to lose the game?
We aren't exactly blessed with options. None of Lawrence, Jozwiak, Sibley, Roberts or Waghorn look all that likely to inspire us to victory but somebody has to play.
It's about overall contribution. WIth CKR we look stronger, with Lawrence we look weaker.
He isn't alone in this, other players can look impressive on paper, win the plaudits of the fans, but make the overall team worse. Kinkladze is the classic example of this, where outside of the small pond world of his domestic league he would make any team he played for worse, winning nothing, while still scoring some stunning goals and wowing the fans. Lawrence comes across as the car boot sale version of that.
It's also about knowing the players around you, and how to make them look better.
When Lawrence is playing it doesn't look like he cares about the players he's playing with, hasn't taken the time to learn about them, take on board their strengths and play to them. Either doesn't have the capacity to do that, or doesn't care.
This is the opposite of somebody like Mount, who would make the players around him look better than they were by showing the maturity needed to understand their strengths, not just play fancy balls and wow the fans because he could. In the case of Wilson it seems in hindsight he made him look far better than he was just by playing alongside him.
A former one of our own seems to have finally realised this too. Hughes at Watford. His recent performances have shown far better understanding of those around him and allowed him to use his skills to make them look better, rather than him looking impressive without adding anything to the team.
The same problem existed for Rooney when he played deeper both for England and for us. He could play some lavish balls but they were rarely creative, he was never on the same wavelength as the other players, they were never the balls that mattered. At best they resulted in nothing, at worst the move broke down as it had no potential and we conceded. He cost us more points as a player than he earned us too.
Weaker than what? If we are talking about overall contribution, how do we rank Lawrence, Waghorn, Jozwiak, Sibley and Roberts? None have been impressive or even consistently decent. Only Sibley could claim with justification that his opportunities have been limited. Jozwiak has one goal all season, Roberts none since he arrived, Waghorn's scoring record is extremely poor. The reason that every single manager Derby have had since Lawrence was signed has put him in the starting eleven is because they think he can come up with something that might just turn the game.
Roberts has scored one goal in 45 Championship appearances over the course of his career. I quite like him as a player but those aren't great stats. If Roberts is to play then he needs to be creating chances for other players. Jozwiak has one goal all season and although again I was impressed by him early on he is not scoring or creating. Sibley has 6 goals in 35 appearances, not bad for a young player but not outstanding. In his Derby career Waghorn has 24 from 107 appearances and Lawrence has 24 from 128. Both of those are fairly decent for wide players though of course Waghorn has made a lot of those appearances as a striker.
So rather than just saying "Lawrence mustn't play and I refuse to acknowledge that he can ever improve any team under any circumstances" we could debate the pros and cons of the alternatives available for our last two games.
In our last ten games we have scored seven goals. One by Kazim. Two by Gregory. One by Sibley. One a Shinnie penalty. Two by Lawrence. Like it or not, Lawrence is one of our best chances of getting a goal at the moment. He is positively prolific compared to the competition for his place.
Well I'm saying we're in the mess we're in because we have too many players like that on our books. If we don't have better options anywhere, that's a problem, but for Lawrence sometimes I wonder if we'd be better off with 10 men.
What I'm trying to say is that with a good player, they have a strong bond and intimate knowledge and understanding of their teammates, every body, every pair of legs on that field is an extension of their own, it isn't about their own ability to do everything, it's about being able to make those around them look like world beaters too. This is why teams click. With a player like Lawrence, and many of the others you mention, a team is never really going to click because they don't have the interest in the players around them. This is also why sometimes it takes the best players a good 10 matches to settle in while they develop this understanding.
A clear out is needed, regardless of if we stay up or go down, and in my opinion, a sports psychologist adding to the scouting team, because we've signed far too many players, including those on loan recently, who don't have the mentality to form a strong team. Marriott and Zoon could be added to that list too.
Well I agree with most of that 9ear. I just don't think the relentless scapegoating of one particular player is sensible. I would be very pleased indeed to have Lawrence out of the team if I thought that his replacement was better. At the moment I do think he should play because one moment could save us and I don't think that any of the alternatives are more likely to provide it.
All through the team we seem mentally and physically quite weak. Some of it is lack of confidence but some seems down to character as you say. Whether we need a massive clearout or just two or three leaders who can galvanise the rest I don't know but I think circumstances will result in the former, regardless of where we end up.
I think the enormity of our demise is getting to people. Lawrence is a quality player. He's not cost us any goals that I can recall and offers a rare glimpse of technical ability that few of our players can. If he looks out of kilter with other players, that's got more to do with them being poor than anything.
......... and I was fulfilling the stereotype.
Mentioned a while back ago the podcast Undr the Cosh - they've got Martin 'Mad Dog' Allen on this week and his interview was a really good listen.
Nothing like what I imagined , a really interesting guy and I enjoyed Part 2 and what he went through to find the right type of players (with the right character).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxqBIs0Jxvk
It made me think our club definitely needs a seasoned pro from the lower divisions working at the club in some capacity with his scouting contacts to find some decent gems in the lower divisions. Provide a rocket up the.... when one is needed and introduce some of the methods suggested by MA to improve morale, camaraderie within.
Lawrence - I get the points you've raised 9earchange, the way I look at it is that he's one of our better offensive players. Unfortunately he suffers from inconsistency issues , whether that's due to selfish reasons (not using the players around him more productively) or mentality we can all make our own suggestions.
From a positional pov I think he's ineffective on the wing as he doesn't track back, if played in a no.10 role can prove to be a tricky player for the opposition. It then comes down to balance and that's been our problem - we definitely required two hard tackling midfielders and other than Shinnie at present don't have that option.
I see Lawrence having an impact versus Swansea and the final match against Sheff Weds more so than I do any other player because if he's switched on he is our biggest threat.
Desi ... "he is our biggest threat" is exactly right. He has the ability to produce a moment of magic
Brentford 0-0 Rotherham
10 mins
Brentford 1-0 Rotherham half time
comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 23 hours, 15 minutes ago
VC, I don't know how many goals Lawrence has scored this season, he has been injured for much of it. I don't "rely" on him to save our season, but the goal he scored recently showed what he is at least capable of, a goal out of nothing. It's not much to pin hopes on, I agree, but what else is there?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry to be so late with my reply, but your comment about Lawrence's ability is the reason I dislike him so much, why can't he do it more often? I think he has scored 3 goals this season which is poor, as for his long injury over Christmas and the new year...well I wonder what went on there.
You told me off for alluding that Ibe was allegedly using mental health issues for his problems. I don't know the full story but he looked about 4 stones overweight earlier in the season, I'm surprised that it wasn't a bad back.
We've brought some rubbish players into the club in the last 7 years but Ibe must be even worse than Camara.
I think Ibe's signature had more to do with our amortization policy then his playing ability.
I had completely forgotten about Ibe. The kindest interpretation is that he was a long-shot that hasn't come off. If he is ill I still wish him well though.
FT 1-0
Fortunately Roth didnt bring Zoon on !
comment by 🏁 AnglianRam 🏁 (U17428)
posted about a minute ago
FT 1-0
Fortunately Roth didnt bring Zoon on !
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong thread
comment by ViewFromCroxteth (U1581)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by 🏁 AnglianRam 🏁 (U17428)
posted about a minute ago
FT 1-0
Fortunately Roth didnt bring Zoon on !
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong thread
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thought it was quiet
Why bother when there's a perfectly good live thread here ?
Sign in if you want to comment
Derby County 1 - 2 Birmingham City
Page 21 of 21
17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21
posted on 26/4/21
At least some reward from this match!
posted on 26/4/21
VC, I don't know how many goals Lawrence has scored this season, he has been injured for much of it. I don't "rely" on him to save our season, but the goal he scored recently showed what he is at least capable of, a goal out of nothing. It's not much to pin hopes on, I agree, but what else is there?
posted on 26/4/21
I still think we look more likely to concede with Lawrence in the team. He's scored some goals, but also been responsible for many and cost us points, much like Waghorn.
posted on 26/4/21
comment by 9earchange (U16914)
posted 15 minutes ago
I still think we look more likely to concede with Lawrence in the team. He's scored some goals, but also been responsible for many and cost us points, much like Waghorn.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Last two goals he's scored have resulted in a grand total of nil points, (despite one being a worldie).
Just saying .............
posted on 26/4/21
Don’t quite understand that logic Scouse. Are you saying that scoring goals is not something we should be trying to do? Should we blame Kazim for scoring on Saturday because it caused us to lose the game?
We aren't exactly blessed with options. None of Lawrence, Jozwiak, Sibley, Roberts or Waghorn look all that likely to inspire us to victory but somebody has to play.
posted on 27/4/21
It's about overall contribution. WIth CKR we look stronger, with Lawrence we look weaker.
He isn't alone in this, other players can look impressive on paper, win the plaudits of the fans, but make the overall team worse. Kinkladze is the classic example of this, where outside of the small pond world of his domestic league he would make any team he played for worse, winning nothing, while still scoring some stunning goals and wowing the fans. Lawrence comes across as the car boot sale version of that.
posted on 27/4/21
It's also about knowing the players around you, and how to make them look better.
When Lawrence is playing it doesn't look like he cares about the players he's playing with, hasn't taken the time to learn about them, take on board their strengths and play to them. Either doesn't have the capacity to do that, or doesn't care.
This is the opposite of somebody like Mount, who would make the players around him look better than they were by showing the maturity needed to understand their strengths, not just play fancy balls and wow the fans because he could. In the case of Wilson it seems in hindsight he made him look far better than he was just by playing alongside him.
A former one of our own seems to have finally realised this too. Hughes at Watford. His recent performances have shown far better understanding of those around him and allowed him to use his skills to make them look better, rather than him looking impressive without adding anything to the team.
posted on 27/4/21
The same problem existed for Rooney when he played deeper both for England and for us. He could play some lavish balls but they were rarely creative, he was never on the same wavelength as the other players, they were never the balls that mattered. At best they resulted in nothing, at worst the move broke down as it had no potential and we conceded. He cost us more points as a player than he earned us too.
posted on 27/4/21
Weaker than what? If we are talking about overall contribution, how do we rank Lawrence, Waghorn, Jozwiak, Sibley and Roberts? None have been impressive or even consistently decent. Only Sibley could claim with justification that his opportunities have been limited. Jozwiak has one goal all season, Roberts none since he arrived, Waghorn's scoring record is extremely poor. The reason that every single manager Derby have had since Lawrence was signed has put him in the starting eleven is because they think he can come up with something that might just turn the game.
Roberts has scored one goal in 45 Championship appearances over the course of his career. I quite like him as a player but those aren't great stats. If Roberts is to play then he needs to be creating chances for other players. Jozwiak has one goal all season and although again I was impressed by him early on he is not scoring or creating. Sibley has 6 goals in 35 appearances, not bad for a young player but not outstanding. In his Derby career Waghorn has 24 from 107 appearances and Lawrence has 24 from 128. Both of those are fairly decent for wide players though of course Waghorn has made a lot of those appearances as a striker.
So rather than just saying "Lawrence mustn't play and I refuse to acknowledge that he can ever improve any team under any circumstances" we could debate the pros and cons of the alternatives available for our last two games.
In our last ten games we have scored seven goals. One by Kazim. Two by Gregory. One by Sibley. One a Shinnie penalty. Two by Lawrence. Like it or not, Lawrence is one of our best chances of getting a goal at the moment. He is positively prolific compared to the competition for his place.
posted on 27/4/21
Well I'm saying we're in the mess we're in because we have too many players like that on our books. If we don't have better options anywhere, that's a problem, but for Lawrence sometimes I wonder if we'd be better off with 10 men.
What I'm trying to say is that with a good player, they have a strong bond and intimate knowledge and understanding of their teammates, every body, every pair of legs on that field is an extension of their own, it isn't about their own ability to do everything, it's about being able to make those around them look like world beaters too. This is why teams click. With a player like Lawrence, and many of the others you mention, a team is never really going to click because they don't have the interest in the players around them. This is also why sometimes it takes the best players a good 10 matches to settle in while they develop this understanding.
A clear out is needed, regardless of if we stay up or go down, and in my opinion, a sports psychologist adding to the scouting team, because we've signed far too many players, including those on loan recently, who don't have the mentality to form a strong team. Marriott and Zoon could be added to that list too.
posted on 27/4/21
Well I agree with most of that 9ear. I just don't think the relentless scapegoating of one particular player is sensible. I would be very pleased indeed to have Lawrence out of the team if I thought that his replacement was better. At the moment I do think he should play because one moment could save us and I don't think that any of the alternatives are more likely to provide it.
All through the team we seem mentally and physically quite weak. Some of it is lack of confidence but some seems down to character as you say. Whether we need a massive clearout or just two or three leaders who can galvanise the rest I don't know but I think circumstances will result in the former, regardless of where we end up.
posted on 27/4/21
I think the enormity of our demise is getting to people. Lawrence is a quality player. He's not cost us any goals that I can recall and offers a rare glimpse of technical ability that few of our players can. If he looks out of kilter with other players, that's got more to do with them being poor than anything.
posted on 27/4/21
......... and I was fulfilling the stereotype.
posted on 27/4/21
Mentioned a while back ago the podcast Undr the Cosh - they've got Martin 'Mad Dog' Allen on this week and his interview was a really good listen.
Nothing like what I imagined , a really interesting guy and I enjoyed Part 2 and what he went through to find the right type of players (with the right character).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxqBIs0Jxvk
It made me think our club definitely needs a seasoned pro from the lower divisions working at the club in some capacity with his scouting contacts to find some decent gems in the lower divisions. Provide a rocket up the.... when one is needed and introduce some of the methods suggested by MA to improve morale, camaraderie within.
Lawrence - I get the points you've raised 9earchange, the way I look at it is that he's one of our better offensive players. Unfortunately he suffers from inconsistency issues , whether that's due to selfish reasons (not using the players around him more productively) or mentality we can all make our own suggestions.
From a positional pov I think he's ineffective on the wing as he doesn't track back, if played in a no.10 role can prove to be a tricky player for the opposition. It then comes down to balance and that's been our problem - we definitely required two hard tackling midfielders and other than Shinnie at present don't have that option.
I see Lawrence having an impact versus Swansea and the final match against Sheff Weds more so than I do any other player because if he's switched on he is our biggest threat.
posted on 27/4/21
Desi ... "he is our biggest threat" is exactly right. He has the ability to produce a moment of magic
posted on 27/4/21
Brentford 0-0 Rotherham
10 mins
posted on 27/4/21
Brentford 1-0 Rotherham half time
posted on 27/4/21
comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 23 hours, 15 minutes ago
VC, I don't know how many goals Lawrence has scored this season, he has been injured for much of it. I don't "rely" on him to save our season, but the goal he scored recently showed what he is at least capable of, a goal out of nothing. It's not much to pin hopes on, I agree, but what else is there?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry to be so late with my reply, but your comment about Lawrence's ability is the reason I dislike him so much, why can't he do it more often? I think he has scored 3 goals this season which is poor, as for his long injury over Christmas and the new year...well I wonder what went on there.
You told me off for alluding that Ibe was allegedly using mental health issues for his problems. I don't know the full story but he looked about 4 stones overweight earlier in the season, I'm surprised that it wasn't a bad back.
We've brought some rubbish players into the club in the last 7 years but Ibe must be even worse than Camara.
posted on 27/4/21
I think Ibe's signature had more to do with our amortization policy then his playing ability.
posted on 27/4/21
I had completely forgotten about Ibe. The kindest interpretation is that he was a long-shot that hasn't come off. If he is ill I still wish him well though.
posted on 27/4/21
FT 1-0
Fortunately Roth didnt bring Zoon on !
posted on 27/4/21
comment by 🏁 AnglianRam 🏁 (U17428)
posted about a minute ago
FT 1-0
Fortunately Roth didnt bring Zoon on !
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong thread
posted on 27/4/21
comment by ViewFromCroxteth (U1581)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by 🏁 AnglianRam 🏁 (U17428)
posted about a minute ago
FT 1-0
Fortunately Roth didnt bring Zoon on !
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong thread
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thought it was quiet
posted on 27/4/21
Why bother when there's a perfectly good live thread here ?
Page 21 of 21
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