comment by Colemanballs-جيش الدفاع الإسرائيلي (U22246)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by (K̇ash) I'm the Mané - Free Palestine (U1108)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 45 seconds ago
Three titles vs thirteen for Fergie, and he's the best ever PL manager? WTF?
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If you add titles in Spain and Germany then he probably is.
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I'm not arguing against Guardiola, but number of titles isn't necessarily the clincher. If you're working with clubs that have the resources to dominate their league, you probably need to look at the finer details of how they managed to reveal how good they are. Bayern have just won their ninth successive title. If league titles are the mark of Guardiola's greatness, then based on his Bayern career he gets the same marks as Hansi Flick, Jupp Heynckes and Carlo Ancelotti.
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Didn't Fergie manage a club that had the resources to dominate the league for years,or are you saying he won all his titles on a shoestring budget?
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You're missing my point. I'm not looking at this through a partisan lens, not arguing in favour of Fergie over Guardiola, not disputing the claim that Guardiola is the better coach. I'm simply arguing that titles won aren't the most reliable yardstick, and aren't a very useful way of explaining Guardiola's greatness as a coach. The point is that if we only look at titles, Guardiola's record at Bayern is basically on par: Bayern have won for nine years in succession under four managers, so winning those titles is just meeting expectations. You might argue that winning three titles in his time at City is also kind of in line with expectations rather than massively exceeding them, given the resources he has, the stability of the club, and the way it moulded its recruitment around the end game of bringing in Guardiola years before he arrived. So, exactly, did Fergie enjoy various advantages (a financial edge over rivals much of the time, organisational stability that had all parts of the club pulling in the same direction). None of this undermines the argument in favour of Guardiola. It's just that his genius resides in the finer details. Ultimately, I'd be much more interested to read experts on formation and tactics comparing the ideas of the best coaches and the impacts of those ideas than hearing a ex-pros pronouncing who they think is the best.
comment by Sut mine klunker - Admin 5 (U1250)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 33 minutes ago
Three titles vs thirteen for Fergie, and he's the best ever PL manager? WTF?
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Bit daft to pull in longevity. That means no other manager will ever be the best manager in the league unless they win 14 titles. Which is probably never going to happen again. But it is fairly save to say if Pep stayed 25 years at City he would run SAF close or exceed him. He's literally won multiple league titles in every country he's managed in. He has a win percentage on average of 73% in 740 matches as a manager. SAF is 58%.
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I didn't say he had to win 14, but yes longevity should come into it because it matters in my book and it's testament to how good Fergie was that he was able to maintain the quality he had for so long with one team after the next. It's something Wenger couldn't manage, or Clough back in his day. Mourinho doesn't even bother with it, or is not good enough these days to hold on to a job past 2 seasons.
When I made that comment I was judging strictly on the PL which given the title suggests that's what it should be based on. Pep would need more than 5 seasons at City.
Bit daft to pull in longevity.
———
No it’s not. That’s Fergie’s legacy, the ability to adapt and win over different eras. He won league titles within 20 years of each other. That’s ridiculous.
He’s spent over a billion, so had a massive advantage over the competition.
So no.
I’d put Ranieri’s achievements with Leicester and Jose’s achievements with Chelsea on a par with Peps achievements with City.
SAF remains a class apart still.
comment by The Mur Man (U22601)
posted 28 seconds ago
I’d put Wengers achievements with Arsenal, Ranieri’s achievements with Leicester a Jose’s achievements with Chelsea on a par with Peps achievements with City.
SAF remains a class apart still.
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SAF adapted and kept winning. The likes of Wenger and Jose didn't do this.
Pep is a great coach there's no doubt about that and I don't understand why people say he needs to go to a smaller club to prove it. He's at the top because he's proven he can be there!
On SAF though I've often wondered if his long-term team building and evolving to meet challenges came at a cost in terms of CL wins. I think had he thought short-term a bit more often we'd have a few more. I suppose he was unlucky to bump into Pep's Barca though!
comment by Netan Sansara (U1734)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by Barf Vader (U15867)
posted 3 minutes ago
Would have been fascinating to see Fergie and Pep in the same league competing at the same time.
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Fergie's United, Wenger's (good) Arsenal, Mourinho's Chelsea (04-06), Pep's city, Klopp's Liverpool. That would be a title race.
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This is probably the most least-Barry comment on the site. That would be a title race.
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 2 minutes ago
SAF adapted and kept winning. The likes of Wenger and Jose didn't do this.
Pep is a great coach there's no doubt about that and I don't understand why people say he needs to go to a smaller club to prove it. He's at the top because he's proven he can be there!
On SAF though I've often wondered if his long-term team building and evolving to meet challenges came at a cost in terms of CL wins. I think had he thought short-term a bit more often we'd have a few more. I suppose he was unlucky to bump into Pep's Barca though!
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Nah, I think it's just hard to win CL titles, that's why Pep himself has struggled even when managing Bayern and City; 2 titles in what, 15 years? Mourinho has 2 in roughly 20 years and is unlikely to win anymore soon.
So for all the criticism Fergie used to get in his time for underperforming in Europe, it seems fairly par for the course what he did.
It's ridiculous to even compare him to Wenger let alone Fergie imo.
Pep has certainly done a good job at City and got them playing lovely football but imo 3/5 titles with the squad he inherited and budget he has had since is par for the course for a quality manager.
For me, Klopp has done a much more impressive job, turning liverpool into a European force from a top 4 challenger whilst having to sell his best player.
Utd basically walked a crap PL for the whole of the 90s. A Blackburn side that didn’t do anything but put in crosses for a whole season and that won them the league. If we are making excuses for some of Peps successes then we can easily do the same with SAF.
What Pep did at Barca is one of the most impressive things I have ever seen (and probably will ever see). It’s a tough comparison as it depends what parameters you are judging them by but it’s hardly the most outrageous claim.
I also think Fergie got out at the right time, as Pep would have been his hardest competitor.
I do think people underestimate the work Pep has done. There’s obviously an advantage with the players he’s inherited at his clubs, but to have them playing on the level he has is impressive. If you compare his worst seasons to his contemporaries, or other brilliant coaches of eras past, they’re still at a very high level.
I think Pep can elevate better players to a higher level than any other coach/manager.
He's spent 1.3 billion pounds over his career.
Imagine if Klopp spent that much or had a squad big as City?
You have to raise an eyebrow to how certain managers are able to get better of pep over and over again but is assisted by the fact that man city constantly have the strongest squad going in England to help him win trophies.
If we are talking about quality coaching, and not about titles (bought or earned), most professionals across the football world over the last few decades would probably have a few interesting names on their list. Surprisingly, one of the names that often pops up is Roy Hodgson. No, seriously!
He has been lauded down the years for the quality of his coaching - mainly with nobodies, no-hopers and simply dross.
His LFC gig under Hicks & Gillett is a prime example. My God, they were dross back then.
His England stint, when Wags were of more interest than the players - whose attitudes sucked - also bears this out.
Add in the many clubs where he coached without a budget - Fulham, etc.
So, when talking about great coaches, perhaps we ought to bear the likes of Pigeon Neck in mind?
Just saying...
comment by Chelsea_badger (U22493)
posted 36 seconds ago
He's spent 1.3 billion pounds over his career.
Imagine if Klopp spent that much or had a squad big as City?
You have to raise an eyebrow to how certain managers are able to get better of pep over and over again but is assisted by the fact that man city constantly have the strongest squad going in England to help him win trophies.
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OGS has beaten Pep regularly but in the big games (semi finals) Pep's team has won.
He's just a great coach. He loses sometimes but, more often than not, they do enough when it matters.
I'll be delighted when he leaves City!
comment by Chelsea_badger (U22493)
posted 33 seconds ago
He's spent 1.3 billion pounds over his career.
Imagine if Klopp spent that much or had a squad big as City?
You have to raise an eyebrow to how certain managers are able to get better of pep over and over again but is assisted by the fact that man city constantly have the strongest squad going in England to help him win trophies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Klopp being able to beat Pep isn't solely down to how much a certain manager spends on players, it comes down to who you buy and who fits the system. Klopp is capable of beating Pep because in many cases Pep's style of play is countered by Klopp's. Of course, this isn't always the case (ala this season) but it still doesn't matter how much money you spend, it's who you spend it on.
Not that I would put him on any Best PL Coaching list. Well, at least, not top forty.
In England I'd put Klopp's achievements much higher. To get Liverpool their first league in almost 30 years is a big deal. Then obviously he's done much better in Europe. All with a much smaller budget.
comment by (K̇ash) I'm the Mané - Free Palestine (U1108)
posted 1 hour, 33 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 18 minutes ago
"won the pl playing with a false number 9."
I thought he played Aguero and/or Jesus a lot in all of his PL triumphs, not to say he didn't play a "false No9" on occasion, but Jose did that with Hazard....
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We were the first team to win title with false 9 with Firmino but City fans seems to be clinging on this like they were the first.
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Jose won the title with Hazard as a false 9.
Same goes for what Wenger did at Arsenal.
comment by Chelsea_badger (U22493)
posted 3 minutes ago
In England I'd put Klopp's achievements much higher. To get Liverpool their first league in almost 30 years is a big deal. Then obviously he's done much better in Europe. All with a much smaller budget.
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This is true. Not to mention Klopp had taken charge with a Liverpool side who were far worse off than when Pep had taken charge at City as well.
comment by Barf Vader (U15867)
posted 7 minutes ago
I think Pep can elevate better players to a higher level than any other coach/manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah definitely. I think it also helps with his squad management. He’s able to get such a high level of performance out of so many good players, even if they aren’t playing week in week out.
It’s rare to see that, usually players at that level just aren’t really able, or happy, to apply themselves without playing consistently.
People really sleep on what he did at Barca. He inherited Rijkaard’s team and that summer so many key players left - Ronaldinho/Deco/Thurman/Zambrotta. Promoted the likes of Busquets/Pedro and generated one of the most dominant sides the game has ever seen.
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is pep the best PL manager of all time?
Page 3 of 5
posted on 12/5/21
comment by Colemanballs-جيش الدفاع الإسرائيلي (U22246)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by (K̇ash) I'm the Mané - Free Palestine (U1108)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 45 seconds ago
Three titles vs thirteen for Fergie, and he's the best ever PL manager? WTF?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you add titles in Spain and Germany then he probably is.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not arguing against Guardiola, but number of titles isn't necessarily the clincher. If you're working with clubs that have the resources to dominate their league, you probably need to look at the finer details of how they managed to reveal how good they are. Bayern have just won their ninth successive title. If league titles are the mark of Guardiola's greatness, then based on his Bayern career he gets the same marks as Hansi Flick, Jupp Heynckes and Carlo Ancelotti.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Didn't Fergie manage a club that had the resources to dominate the league for years,or are you saying he won all his titles on a shoestring budget?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're missing my point. I'm not looking at this through a partisan lens, not arguing in favour of Fergie over Guardiola, not disputing the claim that Guardiola is the better coach. I'm simply arguing that titles won aren't the most reliable yardstick, and aren't a very useful way of explaining Guardiola's greatness as a coach. The point is that if we only look at titles, Guardiola's record at Bayern is basically on par: Bayern have won for nine years in succession under four managers, so winning those titles is just meeting expectations. You might argue that winning three titles in his time at City is also kind of in line with expectations rather than massively exceeding them, given the resources he has, the stability of the club, and the way it moulded its recruitment around the end game of bringing in Guardiola years before he arrived. So, exactly, did Fergie enjoy various advantages (a financial edge over rivals much of the time, organisational stability that had all parts of the club pulling in the same direction). None of this undermines the argument in favour of Guardiola. It's just that his genius resides in the finer details. Ultimately, I'd be much more interested to read experts on formation and tactics comparing the ideas of the best coaches and the impacts of those ideas than hearing a ex-pros pronouncing who they think is the best.
posted on 12/5/21
comment by Sut mine klunker - Admin 5 (U1250)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 33 minutes ago
Three titles vs thirteen for Fergie, and he's the best ever PL manager? WTF?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bit daft to pull in longevity. That means no other manager will ever be the best manager in the league unless they win 14 titles. Which is probably never going to happen again. But it is fairly save to say if Pep stayed 25 years at City he would run SAF close or exceed him. He's literally won multiple league titles in every country he's managed in. He has a win percentage on average of 73% in 740 matches as a manager. SAF is 58%.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't say he had to win 14, but yes longevity should come into it because it matters in my book and it's testament to how good Fergie was that he was able to maintain the quality he had for so long with one team after the next. It's something Wenger couldn't manage, or Clough back in his day. Mourinho doesn't even bother with it, or is not good enough these days to hold on to a job past 2 seasons.
When I made that comment I was judging strictly on the PL which given the title suggests that's what it should be based on. Pep would need more than 5 seasons at City.
posted on 12/5/21
Bit daft to pull in longevity.
———
No it’s not. That’s Fergie’s legacy, the ability to adapt and win over different eras. He won league titles within 20 years of each other. That’s ridiculous.
posted on 12/5/21
He’s spent over a billion, so had a massive advantage over the competition.
So no.
posted on 12/5/21
I’d put Ranieri’s achievements with Leicester and Jose’s achievements with Chelsea on a par with Peps achievements with City.
SAF remains a class apart still.
posted on 12/5/21
comment by The Mur Man (U22601)
posted 28 seconds ago
I’d put Wengers achievements with Arsenal, Ranieri’s achievements with Leicester a Jose’s achievements with Chelsea on a par with Peps achievements with City.
SAF remains a class apart still.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 12/5/21
SAF adapted and kept winning. The likes of Wenger and Jose didn't do this.
Pep is a great coach there's no doubt about that and I don't understand why people say he needs to go to a smaller club to prove it. He's at the top because he's proven he can be there!
On SAF though I've often wondered if his long-term team building and evolving to meet challenges came at a cost in terms of CL wins. I think had he thought short-term a bit more often we'd have a few more. I suppose he was unlucky to bump into Pep's Barca though!
posted on 12/5/21
comment by Netan Sansara (U1734)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by Barf Vader (U15867)
posted 3 minutes ago
Would have been fascinating to see Fergie and Pep in the same league competing at the same time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fergie's United, Wenger's (good) Arsenal, Mourinho's Chelsea (04-06), Pep's city, Klopp's Liverpool. That would be a title race.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is probably the most least-Barry comment on the site. That would be a title race.
posted on 12/5/21
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 2 minutes ago
SAF adapted and kept winning. The likes of Wenger and Jose didn't do this.
Pep is a great coach there's no doubt about that and I don't understand why people say he needs to go to a smaller club to prove it. He's at the top because he's proven he can be there!
On SAF though I've often wondered if his long-term team building and evolving to meet challenges came at a cost in terms of CL wins. I think had he thought short-term a bit more often we'd have a few more. I suppose he was unlucky to bump into Pep's Barca though!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah, I think it's just hard to win CL titles, that's why Pep himself has struggled even when managing Bayern and City; 2 titles in what, 15 years? Mourinho has 2 in roughly 20 years and is unlikely to win anymore soon.
So for all the criticism Fergie used to get in his time for underperforming in Europe, it seems fairly par for the course what he did.
posted on 12/5/21
It's ridiculous to even compare him to Wenger let alone Fergie imo.
Pep has certainly done a good job at City and got them playing lovely football but imo 3/5 titles with the squad he inherited and budget he has had since is par for the course for a quality manager.
For me, Klopp has done a much more impressive job, turning liverpool into a European force from a top 4 challenger whilst having to sell his best player.
posted on 12/5/21
Utd basically walked a crap PL for the whole of the 90s. A Blackburn side that didn’t do anything but put in crosses for a whole season and that won them the league. If we are making excuses for some of Peps successes then we can easily do the same with SAF.
What Pep did at Barca is one of the most impressive things I have ever seen (and probably will ever see). It’s a tough comparison as it depends what parameters you are judging them by but it’s hardly the most outrageous claim.
posted on 12/5/21
I also think Fergie got out at the right time, as Pep would have been his hardest competitor.
posted on 12/5/21
I do think people underestimate the work Pep has done. There’s obviously an advantage with the players he’s inherited at his clubs, but to have them playing on the level he has is impressive. If you compare his worst seasons to his contemporaries, or other brilliant coaches of eras past, they’re still at a very high level.
posted on 12/5/21
I think Pep can elevate better players to a higher level than any other coach/manager.
posted on 12/5/21
He's spent 1.3 billion pounds over his career.
Imagine if Klopp spent that much or had a squad big as City?
You have to raise an eyebrow to how certain managers are able to get better of pep over and over again but is assisted by the fact that man city constantly have the strongest squad going in England to help him win trophies.
posted on 12/5/21
If we are talking about quality coaching, and not about titles (bought or earned), most professionals across the football world over the last few decades would probably have a few interesting names on their list. Surprisingly, one of the names that often pops up is Roy Hodgson. No, seriously!
He has been lauded down the years for the quality of his coaching - mainly with nobodies, no-hopers and simply dross.
His LFC gig under Hicks & Gillett is a prime example. My God, they were dross back then.
His England stint, when Wags were of more interest than the players - whose attitudes sucked - also bears this out.
Add in the many clubs where he coached without a budget - Fulham, etc.
So, when talking about great coaches, perhaps we ought to bear the likes of Pigeon Neck in mind?
Just saying...
posted on 12/5/21
comment by Chelsea_badger (U22493)
posted 36 seconds ago
He's spent 1.3 billion pounds over his career.
Imagine if Klopp spent that much or had a squad big as City?
You have to raise an eyebrow to how certain managers are able to get better of pep over and over again but is assisted by the fact that man city constantly have the strongest squad going in England to help him win trophies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
OGS has beaten Pep regularly but in the big games (semi finals) Pep's team has won.
He's just a great coach. He loses sometimes but, more often than not, they do enough when it matters.
I'll be delighted when he leaves City!
posted on 12/5/21
comment by Chelsea_badger (U22493)
posted 33 seconds ago
He's spent 1.3 billion pounds over his career.
Imagine if Klopp spent that much or had a squad big as City?
You have to raise an eyebrow to how certain managers are able to get better of pep over and over again but is assisted by the fact that man city constantly have the strongest squad going in England to help him win trophies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Klopp being able to beat Pep isn't solely down to how much a certain manager spends on players, it comes down to who you buy and who fits the system. Klopp is capable of beating Pep because in many cases Pep's style of play is countered by Klopp's. Of course, this isn't always the case (ala this season) but it still doesn't matter how much money you spend, it's who you spend it on.
posted on 12/5/21
Not that I would put him on any Best PL Coaching list. Well, at least, not top forty.
posted on 12/5/21
In England I'd put Klopp's achievements much higher. To get Liverpool their first league in almost 30 years is a big deal. Then obviously he's done much better in Europe. All with a much smaller budget.
posted on 12/5/21
comment by (K̇ash) I'm the Mané - Free Palestine (U1108)
posted 1 hour, 33 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 18 minutes ago
"won the pl playing with a false number 9."
I thought he played Aguero and/or Jesus a lot in all of his PL triumphs, not to say he didn't play a "false No9" on occasion, but Jose did that with Hazard....
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We were the first team to win title with false 9 with Firmino but City fans seems to be clinging on this like they were the first.
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Jose won the title with Hazard as a false 9.
posted on 12/5/21
Same goes for what Wenger did at Arsenal.
posted on 12/5/21
comment by Chelsea_badger (U22493)
posted 3 minutes ago
In England I'd put Klopp's achievements much higher. To get Liverpool their first league in almost 30 years is a big deal. Then obviously he's done much better in Europe. All with a much smaller budget.
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This is true. Not to mention Klopp had taken charge with a Liverpool side who were far worse off than when Pep had taken charge at City as well.
posted on 12/5/21
comment by Barf Vader (U15867)
posted 7 minutes ago
I think Pep can elevate better players to a higher level than any other coach/manager.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah definitely. I think it also helps with his squad management. He’s able to get such a high level of performance out of so many good players, even if they aren’t playing week in week out.
It’s rare to see that, usually players at that level just aren’t really able, or happy, to apply themselves without playing consistently.
posted on 12/5/21
People really sleep on what he did at Barca. He inherited Rijkaard’s team and that summer so many key players left - Ronaldinho/Deco/Thurman/Zambrotta. Promoted the likes of Busquets/Pedro and generated one of the most dominant sides the game has ever seen.
Page 3 of 5