We might see a few of them v Fulham...A chance for them to impress.
I dont like wholesale starting changes for cups, but do hope Cresswell gets some minutes and Gelhart gets some too.
Wouldnt be surprised to see Cresswell or Drameh start - we have very little other options at the moment!
Id like Summerville to start too and Geldhart to get minutes
Can see Bielsa playing an U23 lineup at Fulham. We're a point outside the relegation zone with a small squad with a handful of absences, we can't afford any more injuries.
Real catch-22 situation, if we make too many changes we probably won't advance past Fulham.
With our small squad our young players won't get much of a chance if we don't preceed.
We can't be afraid of getting injuries.
comment by montleeds (U18330)
posted 42 minutes ago
Real catch-22 situation, if we make too many changes we probably won't advance past Fulham.
With our small squad our young players won't get much of a chance if we don't preceed.
We can't be afraid of getting injuries.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, but not hard to just give even one player a chance. Why not Cresswell to start for example, with Gelhart chance to come on if we're in comfortable lead with 30 mins to go?
Trouble is, we're rarely in a comfortable lead
Bielsa frustrates the life out of me with his myopia when it comes to substitutions, he has go to players. He normally brings on Roberts for example who invariably does nothing but preen, Gelhardt or Greenwood would be better options. When circumstances dictate and we need a right back he turns to Shackleton when we have a natural in Drameh who just oozes class.
People will point to Struijk and Meslier as examples where U23's have been promoted by Bielsa but I think both were used because Bielsa had no choice, Struijk because of lack of options and injuries and Meslier largely due to Kiko's injury.
I think he only used Crysencio on Friday because Harrison wasn't available.
I am not saying throw all four in at the same time but
Bielsa needs to start looking outside his first team clique.
comment by Elsbels - The Specials' One (U21658)
posted 0 seconds ago
Bielsa frustrates the life out of me with his myopia when it comes to substitutions, he has go to players. He normally brings on Roberts for example who invariably does nothing but preen, Gelhardt or Greenwood would be better options. When circumstances dictate and we need a right back he turns to Shackleton when we have a natural in Drameh who just oozes class.
People will point to Struijk and Meslier as examples where U23's have been promoted by Bielsa but I think both were used because Bielsa had no choice, Struijk because of lack of options and injuries and Meslier largely due to Kiko's injury.
I think he only used Crysencio on Friday because Harrison wasn't available.
I am not saying throw all four in at the same time but
Bielsa needs to start looking outside his first team clique.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kiko's suspension of course.
Dunno Jonty. The youngsters that come through early are either exceptional or early developers.
We all know bielsa likes a small squad with flexible players that he’d rather move around when someone is out as opposed to bring a like4like from the 23s. However that small squad means the 23s are exposed to first team squad.
I get the concept of you dont know how someone reacts to the pace of premiership football and 40k crowds until you try them… but he Sees them in training - Reality is, if they were good enough they’d be getting airtime.
Gelhardt looks a better finisher than Bamford - with the time and space he has in the 23s. Will he press like paddy?
I want to see him tried but it’s that age old debate. You can’t choose which bits of the managers decisions you want to buy into. Bielsa is stubborn and loyal. It’s largely worked for us so far.
Just out of interest Jonty, how many U23 games have you seen to come to your assessment that the boys are "really nowhere near the first team"?
Yesterday for example, by all reports, absolutely outclassed an, admittedly very young, Liverpool team. Despite having a few of the side out (Jenkins, Summerville, Dean, Allen etc).
comment by Elsbels - The Specials' One (U21658)
posted 10 minutes ago
Bielsa frustrates the life out of me with his myopia when it comes to substitutions, he has go to players. He normally brings on Roberts for example who invariably does nothing but preen, Gelhardt or Greenwood would be better options. When circumstances dictate and we need a right back he turns to Shackleton when we have a natural in Drameh who just oozes class.
People will point to Struijk and Meslier as examples where U23's have been promoted by Bielsa but I think both were used because Bielsa had no choice, Struijk because of lack of options and injuries and Meslier largely due to Kiko's injury.
I think he only used Crysencio on Friday because Harrison wasn't available.
I am not saying throw all four in at the same time but
Bielsa needs to start looking outside his first team clique.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly this.
I initially felt he was giving youth a chance but over time it would appear not.
Shackleton is great example. I know he's had injuries, but he made his debut over 3 years ago, but has only played about 1500 minutes of championship and prep football, that's about 15 matches and he's 22 in a couple of weeks.
comment by Elsbels - The Specials' One (U21658)
posted 6 minutes ago
Just out of interest Jonty, how many U23 games have you seen to come to your assessment that the boys are "really nowhere near the first team"?
Yesterday for example, by all reports, absolutely outclassed an, admittedly very young, Liverpool team. Despite having a few of the side out (Jenkins, Summerville, Dean, Allen etc).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I say nowhere near the first team, I mean they never get picked, Gotts is great example 30+ games sitting on bench.
They can look great versus Liverpool reserves, but they need to be given chance in first team if powers that be think they are good enough, which they clearly do not.
How much time do you think a player needs to impress?
I think back to Alan Smith scoring with his first touch.
Harry kewell who after 5 minutes I thought wow this kid is something special. Some players need time, some don’t. The 19year old Phillips you refer to would have been given away by most fans. He needed time. It’s clearly different for every player and that’s the issue.
It’s hard to give an U23s the possible 1/2 season he needs to develop when every premier league position is worth £2m. The only way they are getting in the team is if they are clearly excelling in training and so we can assume that they are not as we have a world class coach who i would trust to identify such.
Do our under 23s ever get a chance?
Aug 2018 Pearce v Bolton
Aug 2018 Pearce shaughnessy v preston
Jan 2019 Davis halme v qpr
Aug 2019 davis v Salford
Aug 2019 Davis bogusz & mccalmont v Stoke
Jan 2020. Gotts v arsenal
Sept 2020 Cresswell Davis bogusz Casey poveda v hull
Jan 2021 Davis poveda v Crawley
All started these games. Others like Jenkins Greenwood came on. Results and indeed performances of these players was not good enough to be given another opportunity any time soon.
Throw in jack Clarke who played 22 times for the club. He showed immediately be was good enough and kept his place.
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 3 hours, 14 minutes ago
comment by Elsbels - The Specials' One (U21658)
posted 6 minutes ago
Just out of interest Jonty, how many U23 games have you seen to come to your assessment that the boys are "really nowhere near the first team"?
Yesterday for example, by all reports, absolutely outclassed an, admittedly very young, Liverpool team. Despite having a few of the side out (Jenkins, Summerville, Dean, Allen etc).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I say nowhere near the first team, I mean they never get picked, Gotts is great example 30+ games sitting on bench.
They can look great versus Liverpool reserves, but they need to be given chance in first team if powers that be think they are good enough, which they clearly do not.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shackleton is a crowd favourite but if you look objectively, he's a favourite because he's a Leeds boy, he has shown little to justify the regard some have for him.
Gotts and Stevens played for the U23's only at a lower level. Summerville, Gelhardt, Greenwood, Drameh and Cresswell are a different level as is Bate, but a bit younger, some if not all, will make it as pros, my concern is that Bielsa will continue to favour someone like Roberts over them and they will break through elsewhere.
I worry especially for Joffy, Jonty you say the powers that be don't think he is good enough, he was good enough to make to make 19 appearances at Championship level when he was 17. He is clearly good enough, I just think Bielsa is, on occasion, quite blinkered.
Problem is the u23 is no gage for the PL
I saw the goals from that game and the keeper should have had both of Gelhardts. That said they were great strikes but I was even more impressed with his dribble for one of the goals
The club obviously know if they are good enough as they will throw them in with the first teamers. Agree with your point though, if they are good enough they are old enough
An alternate would be to loan to the Championship and see how they do. The likes of Poveda, Dramah, Gelhardt and Greenwood
Bielsa prefers to keep the U23s at home so that they are trained in the same way as the seniors and are then ready to step in should either we are crippled by absentees or one is showing enough to warrant starting a game.
Majority of those sent out have left the club. Currently we have poveda mccalmont and bogusz out on loan so maybe one of those will buck that trend.
Els remember Roberts is still only 22 and only a year older than some of the 23s. Phillips didn’t
Really start showing form until he was 22.
Roberts as played in a variety of positions - striker, behind the striker or out wide on both flanks and his statistics are distorted by the majority of appearances being substitute.
He has definitely improved.
He is definitely worth more than we paid for him which is quite rare for the club.
Don’t write him off yet.
comment by Elsbels - The Specials' One (U21658)
posted 8 hours, 10 minutes ago
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 3 hours, 14 minutes ago
comment by Elsbels - The Specials' One (U21658)
posted 6 minutes ago
Just out of interest Jonty, how many U23 games have you seen to come to your assessment that the boys are "really nowhere near the first team"?
Yesterday for example, by all reports, absolutely outclassed an, admittedly very young, Liverpool team. Despite having a few of the side out (Jenkins, Summerville, Dean, Allen etc).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I say nowhere near the first team, I mean they never get picked, Gotts is great example 30+ games sitting on bench.
They can look great versus Liverpool reserves, but they need to be given chance in first team if powers that be think they are good enough, which they clearly do not.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shackleton is a crowd favourite but if you look objectively, he's a favourite because he's a Leeds boy, he has shown little to justify the regard some have for him.
Gotts and Stevens played for the U23's only at a lower level. Summerville, Gelhardt, Greenwood, Drameh and Cresswell are a different level as is Bate, but a bit younger, some if not all, will make it as pros, my concern is that Bielsa will continue to favour someone like Roberts over them and they will break through elsewhere.
I worry especially for Joffy, Jonty you say the powers that be don't think he is good enough, he was good enough to make to make 19 appearances at Championship level when he was 17. He is clearly good enough, I just think Bielsa is, on occasion, quite blinkered.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't know that Gelhardt has played so many games at Championship level. How many goals did he get? I do agree with the sentiment, though. Bielsa is very conservative about his squad. At the back end of last season, and in the close season, he had 15 or so games where he could have blooded young players, without any risk to the club's well-being, yet he steadfastly refused to bring them in. Now he's in a position where he has to bring them in when the heat is on. How is that going to benefit a young player at the start of his career?
I have only watched highlights from the U23's, but it seems clear that we have an exciting crop of young players who can make the grade, and Els comments suggest that we can get more out of our fringe players than we are doing at the moment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't know that Gelhardt has played so many games at Championship level. How many goals did he get? I do agree with the sentiment, though. Bielsa is very conservative about his squad. At the back end of last season, and in the close season, he had 15 or so games where he could have blooded young players, without any risk to the club's well-being, yet he steadfastly refused to bring them in. Now he's in a position where he has to bring them in when the heat is on. How is that going to benefit a young player at the start of his career?
I have only watched highlights from the U23's, but it seems clear that we have an exciting crop of young players who can make the grade, and Els comments suggest that we can get more out of our fringe players than we are doing at the moment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shackleton was heavily involved pre-season
Greenwood Jenkins and McCarron got some minutes, not many but were involved pre-season.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't know that Gelhardt has played so many games at Championship level. How many goals did he get? I do agree with the sentiment, though. Bielsa is very conservative about his squad. At the back end of last season, and in the close season, he had 15 or so games where he could have blooded young players, without any risk to the club's well-being, yet he steadfastly refused to bring them in. Now he's in a position where he has to bring them in when the heat is on. How is that going to benefit a young player at the start of his career?
I have only watched highlights from the U23's, but it seems clear that we have an exciting crop of young players who can make the grade, and Els comments suggest that we can get more out of our fringe players than we are doing at the moment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At £2m or so per premier league place with the club having lost multiple millions to covid maybe they felt finishing 9th was very important. Had we started throwing the u23s in maybe we would have finished a lot lower and cost the club £10m.
See above comment regarding the inclusion of u23s in the cup games and the bad results that we suffered in cup games against lower league opposition. Surely this tells us that even picking 1-2 of them severely affects the performance of the team.
comment by Elsbels - The Specials' One (U21658)
posted 13 hours, 43 minutes ago
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 3 hours, 14 minutes ago
comment by Elsbels - The Specials' One (U21658)
posted 6 minutes ago
Just out of interest Jonty, how many U23 games have you seen to come to your assessment that the boys are "really nowhere near the first team"?
Yesterday for example, by all reports, absolutely outclassed an, admittedly very young, Liverpool team. Despite having a few of the side out (Jenkins, Summerville, Dean, Allen etc).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I say nowhere near the first team, I mean they never get picked, Gotts is great example 30+ games sitting on bench.
They can look great versus Liverpool reserves, but they need to be given chance in first team if powers that be think they are good enough, which they clearly do not.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shackleton is a crowd favourite but if you look objectively, he's a favourite because he's a Leeds boy, he has shown little to justify the regard some have for him.
Gotts and Stevens played for the U23's only at a lower level. Summerville, Gelhardt, Greenwood, Drameh and Cresswell are a different level as is Bate, but a bit younger, some if not all, will make it as pros, my concern is that Bielsa will continue to favour someone like Roberts over them and they will break through elsewhere.
I worry especially for Joffy, Jonty you say the powers that be don't think he is good enough, he was good enough to make to make 19 appearances at Championship level when he was 17. He is clearly good enough, I just think Bielsa is, on occasion, quite blinkered.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not disagreeing, but what we're saying is Shackletion is not really good enough?
I completely agree re back end of last season, perfect chance for some youth players to get some minutes so we can see if they're ok making step up and they're better prepared for this season.
Bielsa wants small squad, but then wants to retain U23's so that he has opposition for training, but not giving these players first team minutes or allowing them to go out on loan does not develop them which means we're always having to buy in players.
Regarding Philips not showing form till 22, he had 5/6 managers from 19 to that time who clearly all saw something in him and I remember Blunt raving about him in U23s.
If we had outstanding talent in U23s they would be playing for first team or asking to leave. You can see from a Smith or Kewell or Greaves that someone has something about them.
What are the solutions?
Do we throw money at ring to improve the quality of players coming through U23s by coming up with a better programme or better/even more recruitment of young players to U23s?
Do we accept U23s are rarely going to make it and we just sell them on once theyre around 20/21?
Do we just buy players that we need for first team and accept we're always going to have a lightweight bench?
The worry about the last one is that we become like Arsenal with Thierry Henry. If he was out, you knew that they would never score. If we have to take Bamford off for Roberts or whomever, that's our chance to win gone. When Raphinha cane off for Poveda, you knew that was kind of game over.
I think it's really hard to have small squad and keep fringe player os high enough quality and interest that you have options to change a game.
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posted on 20/9/21
We might see a few of them v Fulham...A chance for them to impress.
posted on 20/9/21
I dont like wholesale starting changes for cups, but do hope Cresswell gets some minutes and Gelhart gets some too.
posted on 20/9/21
Wouldnt be surprised to see Cresswell or Drameh start - we have very little other options at the moment!
Id like Summerville to start too and Geldhart to get minutes
posted on 20/9/21
Can see Bielsa playing an U23 lineup at Fulham. We're a point outside the relegation zone with a small squad with a handful of absences, we can't afford any more injuries.
posted on 20/9/21
Real catch-22 situation, if we make too many changes we probably won't advance past Fulham.
With our small squad our young players won't get much of a chance if we don't preceed.
We can't be afraid of getting injuries.
posted on 20/9/21
comment by montleeds (U18330)
posted 42 minutes ago
Real catch-22 situation, if we make too many changes we probably won't advance past Fulham.
With our small squad our young players won't get much of a chance if we don't preceed.
We can't be afraid of getting injuries.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, but not hard to just give even one player a chance. Why not Cresswell to start for example, with Gelhart chance to come on if we're in comfortable lead with 30 mins to go?
Trouble is, we're rarely in a comfortable lead
posted on 20/9/21
Bielsa frustrates the life out of me with his myopia when it comes to substitutions, he has go to players. He normally brings on Roberts for example who invariably does nothing but preen, Gelhardt or Greenwood would be better options. When circumstances dictate and we need a right back he turns to Shackleton when we have a natural in Drameh who just oozes class.
People will point to Struijk and Meslier as examples where U23's have been promoted by Bielsa but I think both were used because Bielsa had no choice, Struijk because of lack of options and injuries and Meslier largely due to Kiko's injury.
I think he only used Crysencio on Friday because Harrison wasn't available.
I am not saying throw all four in at the same time but
Bielsa needs to start looking outside his first team clique.
posted on 20/9/21
comment by Elsbels - The Specials' One (U21658)
posted 0 seconds ago
Bielsa frustrates the life out of me with his myopia when it comes to substitutions, he has go to players. He normally brings on Roberts for example who invariably does nothing but preen, Gelhardt or Greenwood would be better options. When circumstances dictate and we need a right back he turns to Shackleton when we have a natural in Drameh who just oozes class.
People will point to Struijk and Meslier as examples where U23's have been promoted by Bielsa but I think both were used because Bielsa had no choice, Struijk because of lack of options and injuries and Meslier largely due to Kiko's injury.
I think he only used Crysencio on Friday because Harrison wasn't available.
I am not saying throw all four in at the same time but
Bielsa needs to start looking outside his first team clique.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kiko's suspension of course.
posted on 20/9/21
Dunno Jonty. The youngsters that come through early are either exceptional or early developers.
We all know bielsa likes a small squad with flexible players that he’d rather move around when someone is out as opposed to bring a like4like from the 23s. However that small squad means the 23s are exposed to first team squad.
I get the concept of you dont know how someone reacts to the pace of premiership football and 40k crowds until you try them… but he Sees them in training - Reality is, if they were good enough they’d be getting airtime.
Gelhardt looks a better finisher than Bamford - with the time and space he has in the 23s. Will he press like paddy?
I want to see him tried but it’s that age old debate. You can’t choose which bits of the managers decisions you want to buy into. Bielsa is stubborn and loyal. It’s largely worked for us so far.
posted on 20/9/21
Just out of interest Jonty, how many U23 games have you seen to come to your assessment that the boys are "really nowhere near the first team"?
Yesterday for example, by all reports, absolutely outclassed an, admittedly very young, Liverpool team. Despite having a few of the side out (Jenkins, Summerville, Dean, Allen etc).
posted on 20/9/21
comment by Elsbels - The Specials' One (U21658)
posted 10 minutes ago
Bielsa frustrates the life out of me with his myopia when it comes to substitutions, he has go to players. He normally brings on Roberts for example who invariably does nothing but preen, Gelhardt or Greenwood would be better options. When circumstances dictate and we need a right back he turns to Shackleton when we have a natural in Drameh who just oozes class.
People will point to Struijk and Meslier as examples where U23's have been promoted by Bielsa but I think both were used because Bielsa had no choice, Struijk because of lack of options and injuries and Meslier largely due to Kiko's injury.
I think he only used Crysencio on Friday because Harrison wasn't available.
I am not saying throw all four in at the same time but
Bielsa needs to start looking outside his first team clique.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly this.
I initially felt he was giving youth a chance but over time it would appear not.
Shackleton is great example. I know he's had injuries, but he made his debut over 3 years ago, but has only played about 1500 minutes of championship and prep football, that's about 15 matches and he's 22 in a couple of weeks.
posted on 20/9/21
comment by Elsbels - The Specials' One (U21658)
posted 6 minutes ago
Just out of interest Jonty, how many U23 games have you seen to come to your assessment that the boys are "really nowhere near the first team"?
Yesterday for example, by all reports, absolutely outclassed an, admittedly very young, Liverpool team. Despite having a few of the side out (Jenkins, Summerville, Dean, Allen etc).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I say nowhere near the first team, I mean they never get picked, Gotts is great example 30+ games sitting on bench.
They can look great versus Liverpool reserves, but they need to be given chance in first team if powers that be think they are good enough, which they clearly do not.
posted on 20/9/21
How much time do you think a player needs to impress?
I think back to Alan Smith scoring with his first touch.
Harry kewell who after 5 minutes I thought wow this kid is something special. Some players need time, some don’t. The 19year old Phillips you refer to would have been given away by most fans. He needed time. It’s clearly different for every player and that’s the issue.
It’s hard to give an U23s the possible 1/2 season he needs to develop when every premier league position is worth £2m. The only way they are getting in the team is if they are clearly excelling in training and so we can assume that they are not as we have a world class coach who i would trust to identify such.
Do our under 23s ever get a chance?
Aug 2018 Pearce v Bolton
Aug 2018 Pearce shaughnessy v preston
Jan 2019 Davis halme v qpr
Aug 2019 davis v Salford
Aug 2019 Davis bogusz & mccalmont v Stoke
Jan 2020. Gotts v arsenal
Sept 2020 Cresswell Davis bogusz Casey poveda v hull
Jan 2021 Davis poveda v Crawley
All started these games. Others like Jenkins Greenwood came on. Results and indeed performances of these players was not good enough to be given another opportunity any time soon.
Throw in jack Clarke who played 22 times for the club. He showed immediately be was good enough and kept his place.
posted on 20/9/21
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 3 hours, 14 minutes ago
comment by Elsbels - The Specials' One (U21658)
posted 6 minutes ago
Just out of interest Jonty, how many U23 games have you seen to come to your assessment that the boys are "really nowhere near the first team"?
Yesterday for example, by all reports, absolutely outclassed an, admittedly very young, Liverpool team. Despite having a few of the side out (Jenkins, Summerville, Dean, Allen etc).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I say nowhere near the first team, I mean they never get picked, Gotts is great example 30+ games sitting on bench.
They can look great versus Liverpool reserves, but they need to be given chance in first team if powers that be think they are good enough, which they clearly do not.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shackleton is a crowd favourite but if you look objectively, he's a favourite because he's a Leeds boy, he has shown little to justify the regard some have for him.
Gotts and Stevens played for the U23's only at a lower level. Summerville, Gelhardt, Greenwood, Drameh and Cresswell are a different level as is Bate, but a bit younger, some if not all, will make it as pros, my concern is that Bielsa will continue to favour someone like Roberts over them and they will break through elsewhere.
I worry especially for Joffy, Jonty you say the powers that be don't think he is good enough, he was good enough to make to make 19 appearances at Championship level when he was 17. He is clearly good enough, I just think Bielsa is, on occasion, quite blinkered.
posted on 20/9/21
Problem is the u23 is no gage for the PL
I saw the goals from that game and the keeper should have had both of Gelhardts. That said they were great strikes but I was even more impressed with his dribble for one of the goals
The club obviously know if they are good enough as they will throw them in with the first teamers. Agree with your point though, if they are good enough they are old enough
An alternate would be to loan to the Championship and see how they do. The likes of Poveda, Dramah, Gelhardt and Greenwood
posted on 20/9/21
Bielsa prefers to keep the U23s at home so that they are trained in the same way as the seniors and are then ready to step in should either we are crippled by absentees or one is showing enough to warrant starting a game.
Majority of those sent out have left the club. Currently we have poveda mccalmont and bogusz out on loan so maybe one of those will buck that trend.
posted on 20/9/21
Els remember Roberts is still only 22 and only a year older than some of the 23s. Phillips didn’t
Really start showing form until he was 22.
Roberts as played in a variety of positions - striker, behind the striker or out wide on both flanks and his statistics are distorted by the majority of appearances being substitute.
He has definitely improved.
He is definitely worth more than we paid for him which is quite rare for the club.
Don’t write him off yet.
posted on 21/9/21
comment by Elsbels - The Specials' One (U21658)
posted 8 hours, 10 minutes ago
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 3 hours, 14 minutes ago
comment by Elsbels - The Specials' One (U21658)
posted 6 minutes ago
Just out of interest Jonty, how many U23 games have you seen to come to your assessment that the boys are "really nowhere near the first team"?
Yesterday for example, by all reports, absolutely outclassed an, admittedly very young, Liverpool team. Despite having a few of the side out (Jenkins, Summerville, Dean, Allen etc).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I say nowhere near the first team, I mean they never get picked, Gotts is great example 30+ games sitting on bench.
They can look great versus Liverpool reserves, but they need to be given chance in first team if powers that be think they are good enough, which they clearly do not.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shackleton is a crowd favourite but if you look objectively, he's a favourite because he's a Leeds boy, he has shown little to justify the regard some have for him.
Gotts and Stevens played for the U23's only at a lower level. Summerville, Gelhardt, Greenwood, Drameh and Cresswell are a different level as is Bate, but a bit younger, some if not all, will make it as pros, my concern is that Bielsa will continue to favour someone like Roberts over them and they will break through elsewhere.
I worry especially for Joffy, Jonty you say the powers that be don't think he is good enough, he was good enough to make to make 19 appearances at Championship level when he was 17. He is clearly good enough, I just think Bielsa is, on occasion, quite blinkered.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't know that Gelhardt has played so many games at Championship level. How many goals did he get? I do agree with the sentiment, though. Bielsa is very conservative about his squad. At the back end of last season, and in the close season, he had 15 or so games where he could have blooded young players, without any risk to the club's well-being, yet he steadfastly refused to bring them in. Now he's in a position where he has to bring them in when the heat is on. How is that going to benefit a young player at the start of his career?
I have only watched highlights from the U23's, but it seems clear that we have an exciting crop of young players who can make the grade, and Els comments suggest that we can get more out of our fringe players than we are doing at the moment.
posted on 21/9/21
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't know that Gelhardt has played so many games at Championship level. How many goals did he get? I do agree with the sentiment, though. Bielsa is very conservative about his squad. At the back end of last season, and in the close season, he had 15 or so games where he could have blooded young players, without any risk to the club's well-being, yet he steadfastly refused to bring them in. Now he's in a position where he has to bring them in when the heat is on. How is that going to benefit a young player at the start of his career?
I have only watched highlights from the U23's, but it seems clear that we have an exciting crop of young players who can make the grade, and Els comments suggest that we can get more out of our fringe players than we are doing at the moment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shackleton was heavily involved pre-season
Greenwood Jenkins and McCarron got some minutes, not many but were involved pre-season.
posted on 21/9/21
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I didn't know that Gelhardt has played so many games at Championship level. How many goals did he get? I do agree with the sentiment, though. Bielsa is very conservative about his squad. At the back end of last season, and in the close season, he had 15 or so games where he could have blooded young players, without any risk to the club's well-being, yet he steadfastly refused to bring them in. Now he's in a position where he has to bring them in when the heat is on. How is that going to benefit a young player at the start of his career?
I have only watched highlights from the U23's, but it seems clear that we have an exciting crop of young players who can make the grade, and Els comments suggest that we can get more out of our fringe players than we are doing at the moment.
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At £2m or so per premier league place with the club having lost multiple millions to covid maybe they felt finishing 9th was very important. Had we started throwing the u23s in maybe we would have finished a lot lower and cost the club £10m.
See above comment regarding the inclusion of u23s in the cup games and the bad results that we suffered in cup games against lower league opposition. Surely this tells us that even picking 1-2 of them severely affects the performance of the team.
posted on 21/9/21
comment by Elsbels - The Specials' One (U21658)
posted 13 hours, 43 minutes ago
comment by Jonty (U4614)
posted 3 hours, 14 minutes ago
comment by Elsbels - The Specials' One (U21658)
posted 6 minutes ago
Just out of interest Jonty, how many U23 games have you seen to come to your assessment that the boys are "really nowhere near the first team"?
Yesterday for example, by all reports, absolutely outclassed an, admittedly very young, Liverpool team. Despite having a few of the side out (Jenkins, Summerville, Dean, Allen etc).
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When I say nowhere near the first team, I mean they never get picked, Gotts is great example 30+ games sitting on bench.
They can look great versus Liverpool reserves, but they need to be given chance in first team if powers that be think they are good enough, which they clearly do not.
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Shackleton is a crowd favourite but if you look objectively, he's a favourite because he's a Leeds boy, he has shown little to justify the regard some have for him.
Gotts and Stevens played for the U23's only at a lower level. Summerville, Gelhardt, Greenwood, Drameh and Cresswell are a different level as is Bate, but a bit younger, some if not all, will make it as pros, my concern is that Bielsa will continue to favour someone like Roberts over them and they will break through elsewhere.
I worry especially for Joffy, Jonty you say the powers that be don't think he is good enough, he was good enough to make to make 19 appearances at Championship level when he was 17. He is clearly good enough, I just think Bielsa is, on occasion, quite blinkered.
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I'm not disagreeing, but what we're saying is Shackletion is not really good enough?
I completely agree re back end of last season, perfect chance for some youth players to get some minutes so we can see if they're ok making step up and they're better prepared for this season.
Bielsa wants small squad, but then wants to retain U23's so that he has opposition for training, but not giving these players first team minutes or allowing them to go out on loan does not develop them which means we're always having to buy in players.
Regarding Philips not showing form till 22, he had 5/6 managers from 19 to that time who clearly all saw something in him and I remember Blunt raving about him in U23s.
If we had outstanding talent in U23s they would be playing for first team or asking to leave. You can see from a Smith or Kewell or Greaves that someone has something about them.
What are the solutions?
Do we throw money at ring to improve the quality of players coming through U23s by coming up with a better programme or better/even more recruitment of young players to U23s?
Do we accept U23s are rarely going to make it and we just sell them on once theyre around 20/21?
Do we just buy players that we need for first team and accept we're always going to have a lightweight bench?
The worry about the last one is that we become like Arsenal with Thierry Henry. If he was out, you knew that they would never score. If we have to take Bamford off for Roberts or whomever, that's our chance to win gone. When Raphinha cane off for Poveda, you knew that was kind of game over.
I think it's really hard to have small squad and keep fringe player os high enough quality and interest that you have options to change a game.
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