We stand a far better chance of getting 0 points deduction from the FFP 'breach' as we were acting on figures that had already been approved by the EFL, and could easily have acted in a different way had we not had that approval. The EFL is at fault there, we worked within the figures that we believed to be correct / acceptable, EFL have no case at all.
Can't understand why the administrators are appealing the administration one, it's a standard punishment, businesses / club are expected to prepare for the worst. Similar '..but Covid..' cases have been dismissed in the past. It's a simple rule. Hope there's no additional penalty for a frivolous appeal against it.
If anything I still think we stand a chance of getting additional points as compensation for the trouble the EFL have caused us over the FFP situation, unfair embargoes and such. We have no grounds at all to appeal the administration penalty unless it can be proved that situation was forced by the EFL acting in bad faith over the other penalties.
Force Majeure only applies where the cause of the particular problem is unforeseen and unavoidable. I don't think either of those two criteria could be applied to Derby's situation. We were in deep doodoo before the pandemic.
I remember two Force Majeures when I was at work. One where we sold a fertiliser plant to Iraq which we delivered just as Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and the other a delacquering plant we delivered to Bulgaria when the communist government fell. Pretty bad luck on the company I worked for and me in particular because I was soon out of a job.
comment by Spart-Derby really are the best says red dog. (U4603)
posted 33 minutes ago
Force Majeure only applies where the cause of the particular problem is unforeseen and unavoidable. I don't think either of those two criteria could be applied to Derby's situation. We were in deep doodoo before the pandemic.
I remember two Force Majeures when I was at work. One where we sold a fertiliser plant to Iraq which we delivered just as Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and the other a delacquering plant we delivered to Bulgaria when the communist government fell. Pretty bad luck on the company I worked for and me in particular because I was soon out of a job.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There is one common denominator there though.
Administators are hard-nosed buggers. They don't do stuff on a whim. They've come in and made a few people redundant so they aren't going to chuck away a few hundred grand in legal costs on a frivolous matter. They must think they have a decent case. Unless Morris has said he will fund the appeal of course in which case maybe the administators think there is nothing to lose by having a bit of a punt at it.
I suppose the argument would be that Morris was able to cover the running costs and service the debt prior to Covid. With the loss of income that Covid caused, and the absence of the 8 million relief money that other clubs took advantage of, administration became inevitable because Morris could no longer bridge the financial gap. Therefore Covid was the cause of administration. I don't know if that would be enough to win the appeal, but I think that's the argument.
I think we have a very good chance of the administration points deduction being reduced IF the extrapolation of the last 6 years accounts shows a clear correlation in income dropping to coincide with Covid-19
to a level where the impact of that drop caused sufficient cash flow issues that put us in a position where we had no choice other than to enter administration.
This has nothing to do with FFP, which looks only at losses.
It's a "simple" cash flow analysis.
comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 45 minutes ago
Administators are hard-nosed buggers. They don't do stuff on a whim. They've come in and made a few people redundant so they aren't going to chuck away a few hundred grand in legal costs on a frivolous matter. They must think they have a decent case. Unless Morris has said he will fund the appeal of course in which case maybe the administators think there is nothing to lose by having a bit of a punt at it.
I suppose the argument would be that Morris was able to cover the running costs and service the debt prior to Covid. With the loss of income that Covid caused, and the absence of the 8 million relief money that other clubs took advantage of, administration became inevitable because Morris could no longer bridge the financial gap. Therefore Covid was the cause of administration. I don't know if that would be enough to win the appeal, but I think that's the argument.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think MM himself used that argument, Vidal, during his interview with Ed Dawes.
Sheffield Wednesday were looking good to escape relegation until they appealed won back 6 points. They went down hill from there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think MM himself used that argument, Vidal, during his interview with Ed Dawes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He did indeed but having put the club into administration he is not in a position to be able to appeal it himself as he is no longer responsible. Hence why the administrators can. Whilst we may have been in trouble before COVID, it might not have been serious enough to warrant an administration. So if, as Mel claimed, the revenue drop from COVID can be demonstrated to have been sufficient to have pushed the club much closer to a need for administration then there might be a chance (not sure how they do this though).
Mel did try to weather the COVID storm and perhaps it's reasonable that he could not have been expected to know how long he would have to do this for (Force Majeure). Wigan did not really attempt to ride it.
The Wigan situation was also different as their administration happened much earlier in COVID times and there were some other circumstances relating to it with new owners instantly saying they won't invest another penny, which is weird for a new owner, and even rumours of some sort of bet placed by said owner that Wigan would be relegated and which required the adminstration in order to reduce the points sufficiently. It was also just 4 weeks after the latest takeover, so very strange. The COVID argument was probably just tagged on by the appealers as a convenient and opportunistic extra.
I also highly doubt Derby's administrators took this decision lightly either so they must feel confident. But even if successful I do not think we will get all 12 points back, perhaps 6. But even that would be a win.
.......... I do not think we will get all 12 points back, perhaps 6. But even that would be a win.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Two wins even.
comment by Scouse (U9675)
posted 8 minutes ago
.......... I do not think we will get all 12 points back, perhaps 6. But even that would be a win.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Two wins even.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a classic 6 pointer …. 😆
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posted on 12/10/21
We stand a far better chance of getting 0 points deduction from the FFP 'breach' as we were acting on figures that had already been approved by the EFL, and could easily have acted in a different way had we not had that approval. The EFL is at fault there, we worked within the figures that we believed to be correct / acceptable, EFL have no case at all.
Can't understand why the administrators are appealing the administration one, it's a standard punishment, businesses / club are expected to prepare for the worst. Similar '..but Covid..' cases have been dismissed in the past. It's a simple rule. Hope there's no additional penalty for a frivolous appeal against it.
posted on 12/10/21
If anything I still think we stand a chance of getting additional points as compensation for the trouble the EFL have caused us over the FFP situation, unfair embargoes and such. We have no grounds at all to appeal the administration penalty unless it can be proved that situation was forced by the EFL acting in bad faith over the other penalties.
posted on 12/10/21
Force Majeure only applies where the cause of the particular problem is unforeseen and unavoidable. I don't think either of those two criteria could be applied to Derby's situation. We were in deep doodoo before the pandemic.
I remember two Force Majeures when I was at work. One where we sold a fertiliser plant to Iraq which we delivered just as Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and the other a delacquering plant we delivered to Bulgaria when the communist government fell. Pretty bad luck on the company I worked for and me in particular because I was soon out of a job.
posted on 12/10/21
comment by Spart-Derby really are the best says red dog. (U4603)
posted 33 minutes ago
Force Majeure only applies where the cause of the particular problem is unforeseen and unavoidable. I don't think either of those two criteria could be applied to Derby's situation. We were in deep doodoo before the pandemic.
I remember two Force Majeures when I was at work. One where we sold a fertiliser plant to Iraq which we delivered just as Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and the other a delacquering plant we delivered to Bulgaria when the communist government fell. Pretty bad luck on the company I worked for and me in particular because I was soon out of a job.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There is one common denominator there though.
posted on 12/10/21
Administators are hard-nosed buggers. They don't do stuff on a whim. They've come in and made a few people redundant so they aren't going to chuck away a few hundred grand in legal costs on a frivolous matter. They must think they have a decent case. Unless Morris has said he will fund the appeal of course in which case maybe the administators think there is nothing to lose by having a bit of a punt at it.
I suppose the argument would be that Morris was able to cover the running costs and service the debt prior to Covid. With the loss of income that Covid caused, and the absence of the 8 million relief money that other clubs took advantage of, administration became inevitable because Morris could no longer bridge the financial gap. Therefore Covid was the cause of administration. I don't know if that would be enough to win the appeal, but I think that's the argument.
posted on 12/10/21
I think we have a very good chance of the administration points deduction being reduced IF the extrapolation of the last 6 years accounts shows a clear correlation in income dropping to coincide with Covid-19
to a level where the impact of that drop caused sufficient cash flow issues that put us in a position where we had no choice other than to enter administration.
This has nothing to do with FFP, which looks only at losses.
It's a "simple" cash flow analysis.
posted on 12/10/21
comment by lastapostleofvidal (U1491)
posted 45 minutes ago
Administators are hard-nosed buggers. They don't do stuff on a whim. They've come in and made a few people redundant so they aren't going to chuck away a few hundred grand in legal costs on a frivolous matter. They must think they have a decent case. Unless Morris has said he will fund the appeal of course in which case maybe the administators think there is nothing to lose by having a bit of a punt at it.
I suppose the argument would be that Morris was able to cover the running costs and service the debt prior to Covid. With the loss of income that Covid caused, and the absence of the 8 million relief money that other clubs took advantage of, administration became inevitable because Morris could no longer bridge the financial gap. Therefore Covid was the cause of administration. I don't know if that would be enough to win the appeal, but I think that's the argument.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think MM himself used that argument, Vidal, during his interview with Ed Dawes.
posted on 13/10/21
Sheffield Wednesday were looking good to escape relegation until they appealed won back 6 points. They went down hill from there.
posted on 13/10/21
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think MM himself used that argument, Vidal, during his interview with Ed Dawes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He did indeed but having put the club into administration he is not in a position to be able to appeal it himself as he is no longer responsible. Hence why the administrators can. Whilst we may have been in trouble before COVID, it might not have been serious enough to warrant an administration. So if, as Mel claimed, the revenue drop from COVID can be demonstrated to have been sufficient to have pushed the club much closer to a need for administration then there might be a chance (not sure how they do this though).
Mel did try to weather the COVID storm and perhaps it's reasonable that he could not have been expected to know how long he would have to do this for (Force Majeure). Wigan did not really attempt to ride it.
The Wigan situation was also different as their administration happened much earlier in COVID times and there were some other circumstances relating to it with new owners instantly saying they won't invest another penny, which is weird for a new owner, and even rumours of some sort of bet placed by said owner that Wigan would be relegated and which required the adminstration in order to reduce the points sufficiently. It was also just 4 weeks after the latest takeover, so very strange. The COVID argument was probably just tagged on by the appealers as a convenient and opportunistic extra.
I also highly doubt Derby's administrators took this decision lightly either so they must feel confident. But even if successful I do not think we will get all 12 points back, perhaps 6. But even that would be a win.
posted on 13/10/21
.......... I do not think we will get all 12 points back, perhaps 6. But even that would be a win.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Two wins even.
posted on 13/10/21
comment by Scouse (U9675)
posted 8 minutes ago
.......... I do not think we will get all 12 points back, perhaps 6. But even that would be a win.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Two wins even.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a classic 6 pointer …. 😆
Page 1 of 1