If there's one thing I've learnt in all this time about medical research, is that I don't have an effing clue of how to correctly interpret the data. It's way, way, way more complicated than first meets the eye, and it's extremely easy to infer and/or mislead other people into believing stuff that the research doesn't back up.

Putting this kind of research in the hands of lay people is like handing a chimp a gun.

—————

I’ve thought about this a lot. We’re watching THREE highly complicated processes unfold simultaneously:

1) The behaviour of a new virus
2) The efficacy of new vaccines, rolled out at unprecedented speed and scale
3) The political response to the virus, and people’s response to the political response

And yet the world is full of fools who think they’ve uncovered evidence of a sinister plot when something appears contradictory or illogical to them. As if this was just going to be a simple, smooth journey from start to finish

yer
we all shud know by now that guvmints r ass-backward n uncapabul of complex plots or even running anything even half competantly

What happened to covid deniers? They were the original anti vaxxers of this pandemic. Or did they give up on that when their leader got covid, then quietly got vaccinated to stop himself from dying?

am sure their r still some around

Trump is really confusing his cultists as he is now pro-vax

comment by 4zA - little boxes on the hillside, little box... (U22472)
posted 8 hours, 32 minutes ago
am sure their r still some around

Trump is really confusing his cultists as he is now pro-vax

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Trump is a fackwitted dumbass

comment by Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
comment by 4zA - little boxes on the hillside, little box... (U22472)
posted 8 hours, 32 minutes ago
am sure their r still some around

Trump is really confusing his cultists as he is now pro-vax

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Trump is a fackwitted dumbass
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And not even he is stupid enough to be anti-vax. Says it all

He was the one that announced the vaccine warp speed project in the first place, was nothing quiet about it.

comment by Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 1 hour, 39 minutes ago
comment by 4zA - little boxes on the hillside, little box... (U22472)
posted 8 hours, 32 minutes ago
am sure their r still some around

Trump is really confusing his cultists as he is now pro-vax

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Trump is a fackwitted dumbass
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Trump has always been Pro vax. He even claims to be responsible and takes credit for the creation of the vaccine itself, leave alone being pro vax. He claims to have made the vaccine which is juxtaposed against his followers being anti vaxx and theorising that the vaccine is some global conspiracy agenda targetting white people or whatever else they're saying right now.

Does anyone still expect the right wing to make sense? They never do. There is a reason that right wing beliefs mostly attract the most stupid people in society.

comment by Assassin Baby (U1282)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 1 hour, 39 minutes ago
comment by 4zA - little boxes on the hillside, little box... (U22472)
posted 8 hours, 32 minutes ago
am sure their r still some around

Trump is really confusing his cultists as he is now pro-vax

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Trump is a fackwitted dumbass
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Trump has always been Pro vax. He even claims to be responsible and takes credit for the creation of the vaccine itself, leave alone being pro vax. He claims to have made the vaccine which is juxtaposed against his followers being anti vaxx and theorising that the vaccine is some global conspiracy agenda targetting white people or whatever else they're saying right now.

Does anyone still expect the right wing to make sense? They never do. There is a reason that right wing beliefs mostly attract the most stupid people in society.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Is the most prominent anti-vaxer in this country not Piers Corbyn, who is left wing. Silly to try and label anti vax sentiment as political.

Possibly holds weight in America. Not seen any evidence of it here.

Also simply idiotic to try and attribute intelligence to only one side of the political spectrum. To think of it as a straight forward left or right wing is far too simplistic and doesn’t describe the variation in political beliefs on either side.

comment by RenegadeOF (U9457)
posted 15 hours, 10 minutes ago
Aye and what I was merely saying is there’s no consensus as yet… I wasn’t saying it’d go one way or other, just that it’s all very new and there’s clearly no consensus yet. Which that paper does show.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You'll find dissenting voices on a whole host of scientific topics, and quite obviously and logically more so on new treatments and discoveries. It's how science works, and scepticism is very healthy when kept reasonable, because it encourages further investigation and research and helps to dispel incorrect beliefs.

That said though, there is currently quite a broad scientific consensus that the vaccine, on the whole, os doing a lot more good than harm. The trouble is that the dissenting scientific voices are being hugely amplified and creating the impression that there's a lot more disagreement on the basics than actually exists.

You might say it isn't a political thing - I don't think it ought to be either - and you are right in that it's attracting people from both extremes of the political divide, but it's also well known that Covid conspiracy theories are being bundled together with all the other crackpot QAnon paranoias, have a far greater following and are being much more vociferously pushed on the far right side of the political spectrum, if only because it aligns quite nicely with their other theories.

I'm all for sensible discussion and am more than ready to listen to people's thoughts from all sides, but if we're to meet anywhere along the way, there has to be a point where people need to start recognising their own flaws and biases.

comment by RenegadeOF (U9457)
posted 4 hours, 17 minutes ago
comment by Assassin Baby (U1282)
posted 33 minutes ago
comment by Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 1 hour, 39 minutes ago
comment by 4zA - little boxes on the hillside, little box... (U22472)
posted 8 hours, 32 minutes ago
am sure their r still some around

Trump is really confusing his cultists as he is now pro-vax

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Trump is a fackwitted dumbass
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Trump has always been Pro vax. He even claims to be responsible and takes credit for the creation of the vaccine itself, leave alone being pro vax. He claims to have made the vaccine which is juxtaposed against his followers being anti vaxx and theorising that the vaccine is some global conspiracy agenda targetting white people or whatever else they're saying right now.

Does anyone still expect the right wing to make sense? They never do. There is a reason that right wing beliefs mostly attract the most stupid people in society.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Is the most prominent anti-vaxer in this country not Piers Corbyn, who is left wing. Silly to try and label anti vax sentiment as political.

Possibly holds weight in America. Not seen any evidence of it here.

Also simply idiotic to try and attribute intelligence to only one side of the political spectrum. To think of it as a straight forward left or right wing is far too simplistic and doesn’t describe the variation in political beliefs on either side.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
First off I didn't say left wingers cannot be anti vaxx so I don't see what anecdotal evidence of one anti vaxx left winger is supposed to prove.

Do some research and you will see that anti vaxx sentiments have found a home on the right wing. People who are anti vaxx are overwhelmingly more likely to hold right wing views. That's a global dynamic as well.

Finally, its not idiotic to "try and attribute intelligence to only one side of the political spectrum".

Study after study have proven a direct relation between IQ levels and political affiliation. The lower the IQ the more likely you are to be right wing or conservative. The Higher your IQ the more likely you are to be liberal or left wing. You can do the research for yourself, if you capable of that.

Apart from the studies I have my own personal experiences to rely on.

Whether it be on this website, the rest of the internet or in real life, the thickest people you meet are always down with the right wing views.

You see, right wing views offer direct and simple to understand explanations for complex situations. They're a dumbing down of complex concepts which require mental effort to solve or understand. People with less mental fortitude are therefore naturally attracted to them instead of bothering with more complex equations.

comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 2 hours, 15 minutes ago
comment by RenegadeOF (U9457)
posted 15 hours, 10 minutes ago
Aye and what I was merely saying is there’s no consensus as yet… I wasn’t saying it’d go one way or other, just that it’s all very new and there’s clearly no consensus yet. Which that paper does show.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You'll find dissenting voices on a whole host of scientific topics, and quite obviously and logically more so on new treatments and discoveries. It's how science works, and scepticism is very healthy when kept reasonable, because it encourages further investigation and research and helps to dispel incorrect beliefs.

That said though, there is currently quite a broad scientific consensus that the vaccine, on the whole, os doing a lot more good than harm. The trouble is that the dissenting scientific voices are being hugely amplified and creating the impression that there's a lot more disagreement on the basics than actually exists.

You might say it isn't a political thing - I don't think it ought to be either - and you are right in that it's attracting people from both extremes of the political divide, but it's also well known that Covid conspiracy theories are being bundled together with all the other crackpot QAnon paranoias, have a far greater following and are being much more vociferously pushed on the far right side of the political spectrum, if only because it aligns quite nicely with their other theories.

I'm all for sensible discussion and am more than ready to listen to people's thoughts from all sides, but if we're to meet anywhere along the way, there has to be a point where people need to start recognising their own flaws and biases.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

There’s no dissenting view from that study I posted. Clearly vaccines are doing more good than harm. Would be idiotic to think otherwise.

If you’d read what I’d actually posted the specific point I was saying was there is no consensus for whether vaccines or covid cause more myocarditis, specifically for young not at risk, like Djokovic. There’s a clear consensus it’s a risk of both.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/59870550

This is hilarious

comment by RenegadeOF (U9457)
posted 17 hours, 31 minutes ago

There’s no dissenting view from that study I posted. Clearly vaccines are doing more good than harm. Would be idiotic to think otherwise.

If you’d read what I’d actually posted the specific point I was saying was there is no consensus for whether vaccines or covid cause more myocarditis, specifically for young not at risk, like Djokovic. There’s a clear consensus it’s a risk of both.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair enough. If that's all you meant, fine. I'm all for sensible discussion.

My contention is that this issue would not normally have left the realm of scientific research discussion amongst professionals. Research is ongoing. A fuller understanding of this adverse reaction might preclude certain groups from getting the vaccine, or involve changing dosage or distribution, for example. Ultimately it should lead to safer and better vaccines.

Nevertheless, it's worth remembering that many antivaxxers' aim is to increase scepticism and minimise uptake. That's by far the bigger killer here. Even though acute myocarditis sounds frightening, it isn't the massive risk they're making it out to be.

It needs pointing out that only a very small proportion of myocarditis in young people is anywhere near serious. So that's a small proportion of the small proportion who might have an adverse reaction. In addition, even amongst the young, most complications will occur in people with co-existing illnesses. The overwhelming majority of cases are mild and resolve spontaneously, and very few leave any lasting effects. Deaths due to this cause are extremely rare.

comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by RenegadeOF (U9457)
posted 17 hours, 31 minutes ago

There’s no dissenting view from that study I posted. Clearly vaccines are doing more good than harm. Would be idiotic to think otherwise.

If you’d read what I’d actually posted the specific point I was saying was there is no consensus for whether vaccines or covid cause more myocarditis, specifically for young not at risk, like Djokovic. There’s a clear consensus it’s a risk of both.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair enough. If that's all you meant, fine. I'm all for sensible discussion.

My contention is that this issue would not normally have left the realm of scientific research discussion amongst professionals. Research is ongoing. A fuller understanding of this adverse reaction might preclude certain groups from getting the vaccine, or involve changing dosage or distribution, for example. Ultimately it should lead to safer and better vaccines.

Nevertheless, it's worth remembering that many antivaxxers' aim is to increase scepticism and minimise uptake. That's by far the bigger killer here. Even though acute myocarditis sounds frightening, it isn't the massive risk they're making it out to be.

It needs pointing out that only a very small proportion of myocarditis in young people is anywhere near serious. So that's a small proportion of the small proportion who might have an adverse reaction. In addition, even amongst the young, most complications will occur in people with co-existing illnesses. The overwhelming majority of cases are mild and resolve spontaneously, and very few leave any lasting effects. Deaths due to this cause are extremely rare.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

My point was very clear, would expect anyone with any grasp of the written word could see that.

Again as I’ve already said if you had read it properly, the risk and impact of myocarditis for young people is virtually nil, but the risk of covid for young people not at risk is also virtually nil. Why my focus was solely on young people.

It’s frankly stupid to think vaccinating healthy children will help with the fight against covid.

comment by RenegadeOF (U9457)
posted 37 minutes ago

My point was very clear, would expect anyone with any grasp of the written word could see that.

Again as I’ve already said if you had read it properly, the risk and impact of myocarditis for young people is virtually nil, but the risk of covid for young people not at risk is also virtually nil. Why my focus was solely on young people.

It’s frankly stupid to think vaccinating healthy children will help with the fight against covid.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

When have I debated your point? Perhaps it's you who isn't reading or comprehending properly.

My posts have been about the risks of trying to interpret medical research we don't fully comprehend, how that risk is even greater when it's pre-print material that is yet to be approved for publication following appropriate peer-review, and how all of that is being dangerously misused by conspiracy theorists to fight vaccine take-up.

Fwiw I also have my doubts about vaccinating children, which is why my 10-year-old isn't going to get jabbed unless/until someone convinces me it's going to protect her. My 20-year old had Covid back in July, and as of yet hasn't been vaccinated.