Comment deleted by Site Moderator
England had a huge racist and xenophobic population who where just waiting for a vehicle to get behind. As unfathomable as it sounds to many, large swathes of the English working class would rather be worse off as long as they can maintain this facade of ‘Great’ Britain. That’s why Boris is in position and why he, and the Tories, can do pretty much any thing they want.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm definitely not going to defend England's political culture, which has been rotting for years. What I would say is that people are complex and most of us are subject to contradictory impulses. I know people who voted Brexit and were concerned about too much immigration who think very differently about diversity and migration than you'd expect if you frame your questions slightly differently. In 2016 the way the pro-Brexit forces succeeded in framing the debate worked very badly for those of us on the side of a politics emphasising collaboration and the common good.
One other thing: working class people in post-industrial towns are often scapegoated for Brexit (and Trump) but we shouldn't let the affluent shires off the hook. Brexit (and Trump) were not simple cries of the dispossessed against the elite. It has been a coalition: people who have done well materially in the age of globalisation but who have grown uncomfortable culturally with the idea of a more diverse and pluralistic society, along with people who have done badly and have been convinced that globalisation is the reason. It's retired home-owners in Buckinghamshire as well as struggling workers in Grimsby. Similarly on the other side of the divide, working class people in ethnically diverse metropolitan areas are more likely to agree with those "Islington Remainer Elites".
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 17 minutes ago
Red Russian killing your article dead MU52. Never mind head on over ty my podcast which is a RR-free zone...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't want to let me on your podcast because if I were on the inside instead of tuning in to listen, that would halve your audience.
It sometimes seems to me Johnson and the Tories are deliberately trying to break up the UK. No independence movement in the UK has done more for the cause of independence than this current lot.
Perhaps that is the plan? If Wales and Scotland did leave the UK then the Tories would have an even greater stranglehold.
I know that sounds a little crazy but the things they come out with sometimes!
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 17 minutes ago
Red Russian killing your article dead MU52. Never mind head on over ty my podcast which is a RR-free zone...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't want to let me on your podcast because if I were on the inside instead of tuning in to listen, that would halve your audience.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not just your article he's killed MU52. Now he's killed me too
I'll be surprised if he leads the tories into another election
comment by GTWI4T- some people deserve to get trolled (U6008)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by DoireDevilBhoy (U10745)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by GTWI4T- some people deserve to get trolled (U6008)
posted 8 minutes ago
Anyone with any kind of awareness of his historical actions, stances and downright lying knows exactly who he is. The guy is an absolute fraud. Imagine only being Prime minister due to your stance on Brexit. A stance that he doesn't even believe in himself. Literally had two copies of a letter he had written for the telegraph, one being for Brexit and one being against and making an 11th hour decision of which way to go based on what he felt would suit his political career more. A blustering idiot who has zero leadership skills, lies (probably more than any politician in recent history) who has spent his life cheating on pretty much every woman he has ever been with and who is so lazy he has pretty much been kicked out of every job he had. Quite how he became leader of our country based around a silly haircut and using funny sounding words is a sad indictment of where we are as a country and unfortunately, the ineptitude of any kind of opposition leader.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
‘ the ineptitude of any kind of opposition leader’, I am not English so wouldn’t get as knowledgeable on this issue, but I’ve often heard this argument and I gave to say, from the outside looking in, it strikes me as a big get out of jail free card to excuse people who should have known better for voting for Johnston. Corbyn was and is a good man, probably a little naive politically, and far from perfect, but certainly a hell of a lot better a person than Johnston and would have been a better leader for the majority. That’s not me saying he would have been great, but better than Johnston. But the tories waged a smear campaign, much of which was complete rubbish, and it was swallowed whole, even by labour supporters. Am sorry to say but the bottom line that brexit has shown is that England had a huge racist and xenophobic population who where just waiting for a vehicle to get behind. As unfathomable as it sounds to many, large swathes of the English working class would rather be worse off as long as they can maintain this facade of ‘Great’ Britain. That’s why Boris is in position and why he, and the Tories, can do pretty much any thing they want.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In a perfect world, being a "good man" would count for a bit more than it does. I personally don't think Corbyn was electable although there was undoubtedly a smear campaign against him which didn't help. It also isn't an excuse for voting for Johnson. My frustration with the opposition isn't related to Boris. It is about not having their own house in order to be in a situation where Johnson even comes close to being a realistic option for some people, let alone the majority.
After nearly 12 years of the Tories being in power and even taking away Brexit and Covid there should be no way that they get the free ride that they do. Labour and the others need to take their gloves off.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I totally understand what your saying but for me, I highly doubt even a fully functioning Labour Party would have been voted in, closer yes, but not in power. Since the inception of Brexit, there has been a tidal weave of nationalism sweeping England that almost guaranteed the conservatives getting in. As I say that’s just my take from the outside, I wouldn’t be overly up on the nuances of it.
i think a lot of us already knew what Boris was really like.
Cant read this article without subscribing, so I wont.
I totally understand what your saying but for me, I highly doubt even a fully functioning Labour Party would have been voted in, closer yes, but not in power. Since the inception of Brexit, there has been a tidal weave of nationalism sweeping England that almost guaranteed the conservatives getting in. As I say that’s just my take from the outside, I wouldn’t be overly up on the nuances of it.
------------------------------------------------------------------
It's true it has been ascendant but this 'tidal wave' was still less than half of English voters. In 2019 (using a clever strategy of campaigning on a slogan of 'Get Brexit Done' which appealed to both fervent nationalists and exhausted people who just wanted it to go away as an issue) the Tories got 47% of the English vote, and even combined with votes for Farage's Brexit Party this was lower than the number of votes cast in England for Labour + LibDems + Greens. I have the feeling that nationalist wave has peaked now (which is why the Tories are continually trying to stoke culture wars over any other issues they can find and trying to maximise a sense of hostility toward the EU). The additional problem is that our electoral system awards a party with a plurality of support by well short of a majority of voters with disproportionate power. Johnson was able to go into an election bullying more moderate Tories into voting for him as it's either him of Corbyn (another function of the electoral system) while tailoring policies to the right wing of his party, and he has 100% power over government with just over 40% support from the country as a whole, but is actually delivering policies to satisfy the fanatical cadres of the party membership.
By the way, you can read the article without subscribing. Or at least, you can sign in for free (e.g. click to sign in with your gmail account) and opt out of paid subscription offers.
That said, I'm not sure this is the NYT article that justifies going to all that length.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 48 seconds ago
By the way, you can read the article without subscribing. Or at least, you can sign in for free (e.g. click to sign in with your gmail account) and opt out of paid subscription offers.
That said, I'm not sure this is the NYT article that justifies going to all that length.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I do pay a fee because I enjoy the paper. I get the Guardian and Le Monde for free.
Slightly disagree with you there RR, it might not be the best article by the best journalist.
But it does show how dangerous, imo, some of the mooted changes are.
I'm really hoping United are as ruthless tonight as RR is on this article. Exactly the attitude we need!
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 48 seconds ago
By the way, you can read the article without subscribing. Or at least, you can sign in for free (e.g. click to sign in with your gmail account) and opt out of paid subscription offers.
That said, I'm not sure this is the NYT article that justifies going to all that length.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I do pay a fee because I enjoy the paper. I get the Guardian and Le Monde for free.
Slightly disagree with you there RR, it might not be the best article by the best journalist.
But it does show how dangerous, imo, some of the mooted changes are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm probably judging it harshly as a news junky who has already read coverage of these things, 52.
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 11 minutes ago
I'm really hoping United are as ruthless tonight as RR is on this article. Exactly the attitude we need!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm going to check out your article on the Villa match now, Diafol
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 11 minutes ago
I'm really hoping United are as ruthless tonight as RR is on this article. Exactly the attitude we need!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm going to check out your article on the Villa match now, Diafol
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not behind a paywall either!
comment by De Gea's Legs (U14210)
posted 48 minutes ago
I'll be surprised if he leads the tories into another election
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’ll be surprised if he leads them into another summer, to be honest.
Didn't need to read a NYT article to be even more convinced of what kind of human being Johnson is.
comment by Rock Steady (U9953)
posted 21 seconds ago
Didn't need to read a NYT article to be even more convinced of what kind of human being Johnson is.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The article isn't what kind of person he is. But his plans that are dangerous to the UK.
I for one am shocked that the man who has lied his entire life continues to lie after being given the most powerful role in the country as a reward for constant lying.
I mean honestly who could have seen this coming?
comment by Drunken Hobo (U7360)
posted 15 minutes ago
I for one am shocked that the man who has lied his entire life continues to lie after being given the most powerful role in the country as a reward for constant lying.
I mean honestly who could have seen this coming?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mystic Mogg😉
Sign in if you want to comment
Boris Johnson
Page 2 of 2
posted on 10/1/22
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 10/1/22
England had a huge racist and xenophobic population who where just waiting for a vehicle to get behind. As unfathomable as it sounds to many, large swathes of the English working class would rather be worse off as long as they can maintain this facade of ‘Great’ Britain. That’s why Boris is in position and why he, and the Tories, can do pretty much any thing they want.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm definitely not going to defend England's political culture, which has been rotting for years. What I would say is that people are complex and most of us are subject to contradictory impulses. I know people who voted Brexit and were concerned about too much immigration who think very differently about diversity and migration than you'd expect if you frame your questions slightly differently. In 2016 the way the pro-Brexit forces succeeded in framing the debate worked very badly for those of us on the side of a politics emphasising collaboration and the common good.
One other thing: working class people in post-industrial towns are often scapegoated for Brexit (and Trump) but we shouldn't let the affluent shires off the hook. Brexit (and Trump) were not simple cries of the dispossessed against the elite. It has been a coalition: people who have done well materially in the age of globalisation but who have grown uncomfortable culturally with the idea of a more diverse and pluralistic society, along with people who have done badly and have been convinced that globalisation is the reason. It's retired home-owners in Buckinghamshire as well as struggling workers in Grimsby. Similarly on the other side of the divide, working class people in ethnically diverse metropolitan areas are more likely to agree with those "Islington Remainer Elites".
posted on 10/1/22
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 17 minutes ago
Red Russian killing your article dead MU52. Never mind head on over ty my podcast which is a RR-free zone...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't want to let me on your podcast because if I were on the inside instead of tuning in to listen, that would halve your audience.
posted on 10/1/22
It sometimes seems to me Johnson and the Tories are deliberately trying to break up the UK. No independence movement in the UK has done more for the cause of independence than this current lot.
Perhaps that is the plan? If Wales and Scotland did leave the UK then the Tories would have an even greater stranglehold.
I know that sounds a little crazy but the things they come out with sometimes!
posted on 10/1/22
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 17 minutes ago
Red Russian killing your article dead MU52. Never mind head on over ty my podcast which is a RR-free zone...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't want to let me on your podcast because if I were on the inside instead of tuning in to listen, that would halve your audience.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not just your article he's killed MU52. Now he's killed me too
posted on 10/1/22
I'll be surprised if he leads the tories into another election
posted on 10/1/22
comment by GTWI4T- some people deserve to get trolled (U6008)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by DoireDevilBhoy (U10745)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by GTWI4T- some people deserve to get trolled (U6008)
posted 8 minutes ago
Anyone with any kind of awareness of his historical actions, stances and downright lying knows exactly who he is. The guy is an absolute fraud. Imagine only being Prime minister due to your stance on Brexit. A stance that he doesn't even believe in himself. Literally had two copies of a letter he had written for the telegraph, one being for Brexit and one being against and making an 11th hour decision of which way to go based on what he felt would suit his political career more. A blustering idiot who has zero leadership skills, lies (probably more than any politician in recent history) who has spent his life cheating on pretty much every woman he has ever been with and who is so lazy he has pretty much been kicked out of every job he had. Quite how he became leader of our country based around a silly haircut and using funny sounding words is a sad indictment of where we are as a country and unfortunately, the ineptitude of any kind of opposition leader.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
‘ the ineptitude of any kind of opposition leader’, I am not English so wouldn’t get as knowledgeable on this issue, but I’ve often heard this argument and I gave to say, from the outside looking in, it strikes me as a big get out of jail free card to excuse people who should have known better for voting for Johnston. Corbyn was and is a good man, probably a little naive politically, and far from perfect, but certainly a hell of a lot better a person than Johnston and would have been a better leader for the majority. That’s not me saying he would have been great, but better than Johnston. But the tories waged a smear campaign, much of which was complete rubbish, and it was swallowed whole, even by labour supporters. Am sorry to say but the bottom line that brexit has shown is that England had a huge racist and xenophobic population who where just waiting for a vehicle to get behind. As unfathomable as it sounds to many, large swathes of the English working class would rather be worse off as long as they can maintain this facade of ‘Great’ Britain. That’s why Boris is in position and why he, and the Tories, can do pretty much any thing they want.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In a perfect world, being a "good man" would count for a bit more than it does. I personally don't think Corbyn was electable although there was undoubtedly a smear campaign against him which didn't help. It also isn't an excuse for voting for Johnson. My frustration with the opposition isn't related to Boris. It is about not having their own house in order to be in a situation where Johnson even comes close to being a realistic option for some people, let alone the majority.
After nearly 12 years of the Tories being in power and even taking away Brexit and Covid there should be no way that they get the free ride that they do. Labour and the others need to take their gloves off.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I totally understand what your saying but for me, I highly doubt even a fully functioning Labour Party would have been voted in, closer yes, but not in power. Since the inception of Brexit, there has been a tidal weave of nationalism sweeping England that almost guaranteed the conservatives getting in. As I say that’s just my take from the outside, I wouldn’t be overly up on the nuances of it.
posted on 10/1/22
i think a lot of us already knew what Boris was really like.
Cant read this article without subscribing, so I wont.
posted on 10/1/22
I totally understand what your saying but for me, I highly doubt even a fully functioning Labour Party would have been voted in, closer yes, but not in power. Since the inception of Brexit, there has been a tidal weave of nationalism sweeping England that almost guaranteed the conservatives getting in. As I say that’s just my take from the outside, I wouldn’t be overly up on the nuances of it.
------------------------------------------------------------------
It's true it has been ascendant but this 'tidal wave' was still less than half of English voters. In 2019 (using a clever strategy of campaigning on a slogan of 'Get Brexit Done' which appealed to both fervent nationalists and exhausted people who just wanted it to go away as an issue) the Tories got 47% of the English vote, and even combined with votes for Farage's Brexit Party this was lower than the number of votes cast in England for Labour + LibDems + Greens. I have the feeling that nationalist wave has peaked now (which is why the Tories are continually trying to stoke culture wars over any other issues they can find and trying to maximise a sense of hostility toward the EU). The additional problem is that our electoral system awards a party with a plurality of support by well short of a majority of voters with disproportionate power. Johnson was able to go into an election bullying more moderate Tories into voting for him as it's either him of Corbyn (another function of the electoral system) while tailoring policies to the right wing of his party, and he has 100% power over government with just over 40% support from the country as a whole, but is actually delivering policies to satisfy the fanatical cadres of the party membership.
posted on 10/1/22
By the way, you can read the article without subscribing. Or at least, you can sign in for free (e.g. click to sign in with your gmail account) and opt out of paid subscription offers.
That said, I'm not sure this is the NYT article that justifies going to all that length.
posted on 10/1/22
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 48 seconds ago
By the way, you can read the article without subscribing. Or at least, you can sign in for free (e.g. click to sign in with your gmail account) and opt out of paid subscription offers.
That said, I'm not sure this is the NYT article that justifies going to all that length.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I do pay a fee because I enjoy the paper. I get the Guardian and Le Monde for free.
Slightly disagree with you there RR, it might not be the best article by the best journalist.
But it does show how dangerous, imo, some of the mooted changes are.
posted on 10/1/22
I'm really hoping United are as ruthless tonight as RR is on this article. Exactly the attitude we need!
posted on 10/1/22
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 48 seconds ago
By the way, you can read the article without subscribing. Or at least, you can sign in for free (e.g. click to sign in with your gmail account) and opt out of paid subscription offers.
That said, I'm not sure this is the NYT article that justifies going to all that length.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I do pay a fee because I enjoy the paper. I get the Guardian and Le Monde for free.
Slightly disagree with you there RR, it might not be the best article by the best journalist.
But it does show how dangerous, imo, some of the mooted changes are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm probably judging it harshly as a news junky who has already read coverage of these things, 52.
posted on 10/1/22
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 11 minutes ago
I'm really hoping United are as ruthless tonight as RR is on this article. Exactly the attitude we need!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm going to check out your article on the Villa match now, Diafol
posted on 10/1/22
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 (U2462)
posted 11 minutes ago
I'm really hoping United are as ruthless tonight as RR is on this article. Exactly the attitude we need!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm going to check out your article on the Villa match now, Diafol
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not behind a paywall either!
posted on 10/1/22
comment by De Gea's Legs (U14210)
posted 48 minutes ago
I'll be surprised if he leads the tories into another election
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’ll be surprised if he leads them into another summer, to be honest.
posted on 10/1/22
Didn't need to read a NYT article to be even more convinced of what kind of human being Johnson is.
posted on 10/1/22
comment by Rock Steady (U9953)
posted 21 seconds ago
Didn't need to read a NYT article to be even more convinced of what kind of human being Johnson is.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The article isn't what kind of person he is. But his plans that are dangerous to the UK.
posted on 10/1/22
I for one am shocked that the man who has lied his entire life continues to lie after being given the most powerful role in the country as a reward for constant lying.
I mean honestly who could have seen this coming?
posted on 10/1/22
comment by Drunken Hobo (U7360)
posted 15 minutes ago
I for one am shocked that the man who has lied his entire life continues to lie after being given the most powerful role in the country as a reward for constant lying.
I mean honestly who could have seen this coming?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mystic Mogg😉
posted on 11/1/22
🥱
Page 2 of 2