I blame the owners 100% and have said this time and time again. They have failed to buy decent quality players, in particular a striker in the 40-50m category. Bielsa wants to play a style.of.football which is exhillerating however the current team /squad/makeup seem unable to implement it.
Part of me.thinks it's down to the small squad, the past 7 days (man u , Liverpool, spurs), being worn down without sufficient quality to come in and do it better or offer something new.
Part of me thinks that if bielsa goes, we will go down anyway as well will lose our style of football which they have all worked hard on achieving. Likewise...if he stays, I see us conceding goal after goal and struggling to stay up.
Agree, ive also read people on here trying to insinuate things about the players suddenly not believing in him or trying, and I I find that odd.
As far as I know phillips should be back for the villa game. We could also really do with cooper back.
If phillips is back I'm dropping firpo and putting dallas at leftback.
From what I've seen bielsa seems sure he can sort out the issues at the club and I personally I trust him enough to try
The keystone here is the players are trying, but simply not good enough to compete. This indictment is what is glaring and what is most concerning as the teams below us are showing that they have the quality to at least get something from games.
Endeavour can only take you so far. Ability to sustain an anchor in your level of competition is what keeps contenders in that space of elevated competition.
Key moments are where adept players are most effective. Our team for all the work rate and endeavour have in general little:
Composure (as you said think Novak at 30/40 down still winning the game)
Technical ability (The ability to use the ball in a way, that makes the oppositions job harder, eg Kane dropping deep and pinging through balls etc to his wingers)
Top level mental ability (to read the game and the oppositions plays, which players are on form that game and reacting to it.)
Top level physical performance ability (huff and puff gets less effective when you are met with the same endeavour but all the above (eg vs Everton game is a great example, they were in dire form yet matched us physically and showed the aforementioned traits against us)
Sad truth is, this team in the cold light of day, is in general not of this level and it’s showing in the story of the season.
3 things that have killed us:
1) Last season, results were skewed by absence of crowds and how that impacted matches, giving better chances for underdogg teams. It meant we finished in a high position that gave a false sense of what was to come.
2) Really, really poor investment. Rodrigo, James, Costa, Firpo and you could say Llorente and Koch for all the lack of real impact we've had from them.
3) Real lack of any under 23's coming through and making the grade. Even Gelhardt has only been a bit part player.
We have a team light on quality and confidence.
If I was AR, this is what I would do.
Meet with Bielsa, ask him if there is anything else he needs, anything out of the box, he has my complete support.
Then meet with the players, tell them the same thing.
Then meet with Leeds staff, tell them same thing, we are in this together and we're staying up.
Then I would say that in public, we are 100% behind the man who brought us up, no doubts about that, he is here until end of season and we are giving him everything he needs to succeed, just as we always have, so stop asking questions about his future, we are one united team going forwards and we are staying up.
Agree Jonty, said before the game 3-0 will be likely outcome today.
We don’t have a result against these established top 6 team in us this season, we always struggle when Phillips is missing, it’s usually only a few games, not 3/4 of a season. You add to that no captain Cooper, who will fight for everything, Llorente doesn’t have that instinct. Then up front, we have no deadly striker who will run the opposition defence and midfield into the ground for 90mins.
We just have to hope there are 3 worse teams in the run in. I think we can get results against the lower teams.
Another observation from today...
- Everton are showing real determination against Man City and are unlucky to be a goal down.
- Watford get a draw against Man U.
- Burnley get another point.
- Newcastle beat Brentford and have moved above us
- Villa go to Brighton and win
Clearly shows we are doing something wrong. How can Watford, awful Watford get.a point against Man U?
Why haven't Everon conceded 4-7 goals against Man C?
They try to adapt to different teams and styles of play. We don't. 1 way and that's it.
Another observation from today.
When Bielsa was asked if he thought players should be doing more for him after all he has done for them....he responded that he hasn't done anything expect provide a system. He took no credit for Philips, Bamford, Ayling, Dallas, Cooper, Klich...
He has more integrity and humility than any manager in my lifetime at Leeds and that includes Revie.
Whatever happens this season and I mean whatever, we have had a really special person in Bielsa and I hope he knows how much he's meant to Leeds fans and Leeds itself.
Jonty, I get the general feel that you still think despite losing our last 4 games heavily and embarrassingly no one else except Bielsa can keep us up and you wouldn't favour a change of leadership.
Well I must respectfully disagree and I think even with KP etc the man marking system that Bielsa insists on implementing in every game that in the championship and last season in the Premier league was a success is not working anymore because our opponents now regularly nullify it and defeat us.
Except for West Ham away when they were knackered and we were rested and Burnley on New year's day when Burnley had injury and covid issues worse than us Leeds have been pretty much 2nd best in most of their games this season.
t's good while it lasted but it's now a busted flush, it isn't a simple case of when KP returns etc the Bielsa system will magically work again because it worked in the past, it's now regularly being overpowered and outplayed and teams are comfortably beating us now.
If Bielsa was prepared to abandon this vulnerable style of his and set us up how managers like Hodgson and Dyche do for their sides I too would not favour a change.
Yes that style can be dull but if Burnley and Watford can get decent results doing that against Man U and Spurs then we should have the players capable of matching them too.
Those saying the players won't be able to adapt to a different style is like the clingy husband or wife who's partner wishes to leave them and they say Oh you won't find anyone else. It's gaslighting nonsense to suggest professional athletes can't take a different tactical instruction and implement it.
Anyway it looks like your good self and half the other Leeds fans on this site are going to have to accept a new man is going to replace Bielsa as rumors across Europe and twitter land have reported Bielsa has been relieved of his duties by Jesse Marsch.
It's a sad end to his time with us but at least he goes without relegation on his cv.
If we do still get relegated then we must use the very generous parachute payments to add to the nucleus of what I think is a very talented crop of U 23 players we have and with some wise additions we can bounce back quickly if relegation does still happen but I personally haven't given up hope that with a brand new pair of eyes that adopts a more pragmatic team set up we can survive.
I was expecting us to get a poor points return for February with the fixtures we had.
Unfortunately, the opposition have been scoring for fun.
What worries me is that even when Phillips, Bamford and Cooper are back in the team - how much confidence have the other players lost in our system of play?
For example, you could almost see Dallas' lack of confidence when presented with a keeper-less goal, Ayling's header and James' shot were other examples where they looked too scared to do what comes naturally.
Ultimately it may be the mental state of our players that determines our safety rather than who's fit to finish the season.
Macca, I don't think I've said that no one else except for Bielsa can keep us up, what I'm saying is its going to be really hard to find someone at this time, with our players to keep us up.
They cant buy anyone they cant change the tactics that much that quickly and with all due respect the players are here because of Bielsa.
I have never manintained that when the players like Philips come back it all changes, indeed, I'm the one who has been saying that even with those players we haven't been good this season.
As for th man marking, I don't agree that its been successful, I think its been our Achilles heel and it's just that this season it has hurt us the most.
If they're such a talented crop of players then why arent they playing?
These players are not good enough and most of them will be moved on this summer as happens every summer under Orta's tenure.
If Bielsa is sacked than I am expecting Philips to be off at the end of the season in addition to Raphinha and we're left with the hugely expensive Rodrigo and James, lasting symbols of the flawed transfer policy of Orta and AR, check we even still have De Bock on the books.
3 things that have killed us:
1) Last season, results were skewed by absence of crowds and how that impacted matches, giving better chances for underdogg teams. It meant we finished in a high position that gave a false sense of what was to come.
2) Really, really poor investment. Rodrigo, James, Costa, Firpo and you could say Llorente and Koch for all the lack of real impact we've had from them.
3) Real lack of any under 23's coming through and making the grade. Even Gelhardt has only been a bit part player.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't disagree with this Jonty but I get the impression that the team spirit that was there in 2019/20 has dissipated, the team look like they've never met before on occasion. Maybe that's an inevitability as the squad evolves. I think Bielsa's English is a major factor here but I look at the guys that left Berardi, Pablo and Gjianni and feel this ripped the heart out of the squad. I also think that Cooper, KP and Paddy being missing from the match-day squad have had a major impact on positivity.
Every pundit and commentator that has been involved in the game at a high level throughout their whole careers always say the same thing: it's great watching Leeds because it's always interesting. For the opposition.
We are wide open because of the systems we play, and because we are not scoring, we are getting hammered.
The players have completely lost all confidence. Shooting is terrible, passing is terrible, tackling is terrible (except for Forshaw), strength is minimal, movement is awkward and easy to spot most of the time, defending is terrible, putting ourselves under pressure every time we try to play out from the back is ridiculous, man-to-man marking leaves huge holes all over the park, man-to-man marking at corners kills us as it is easy to cause mayhem and let big players get free, throw-ins have never been good, corners and crossing are usually terrible.
And yet ... if you set up these same players differently, with a strong back 4, a diamond midfield that is structured with 3 solid players plus two wingers, and then a striker (not a winger or midfielder), and zonal play using diamonds and closing players down in midfield so they can't attack our backs so easily ... and we have a chance.
All of this is down to Bielsa. It is very very clear the way we play is killing us. And the players no longer believe in it or in themselves.
If that means they no longer believe in Bielsa, then ok. Either he or the club needs to do something about it.
Els, dont disagree on the impact that absentees havetaht you mention, just dont think everything changes when they're back.
I mentioned the other day that losing Pablo etc actually has had big impact. Pablo such a creator, Alioski would have been in his element v manu and you'd have had zero attitude problems with raphinha with Berardi around.
I don't think the language barrier has been any factor in this season's malaise, but spirit definitely not there, bt then again its easy to have that spirit when winning and it's why Cooper such an important leader.
Bielsa saved AR and Orta who were utterly clueless in letting Monk go, bringing in loads of dross players, not supporting TC, giving us Heck.....we were in serious trouble.
Bielsa brought us not only promotion, but made us the talk of English football's gave us an amazing Euros ride via Kalvin and created a bond of fans and club that has made AR millions.
Bielsa could have left after play off defeat to Derby but he committed his life to us and got us up after 16 years.
The first bit of bad results and club need to stand by him the same way he stood by the club.
AR's tenure will be short-lived if he shafts Bielsa.
Excellent comments
I'm in the stick with Bielsa camp but I can't disagree with the comments from both sides I just think it's a bad idea at this point in the season.
Fair enough Jonty my misunderstanding and I accept it is not going to be easy iether way if Bielsa is in fact replaced as some news outlets are reporting or he carries on setting us up in the same manner which as I've already stated is for me and a lot of other Leeds fans who despite everything still love and respect what he has done for the club, do not now see Leeds being able to get the better of anyone with this style in our remaining fixtures.
I thought after Villa, ok we will survive, but I based that also on us getting 4 points from the next 4 but Bielsa's selections, set ups, use of substitutes and post match interviews after 4 consequetive defeats, 3 of which have been embarrassing, has just so quickly destroyed confidence and moral that the realisation is for a lot of Leeds fans is Bielsa's methods and reluctance to change is going to lead us straight back into the Championship.
I accepted a couple of defeats were likely but not 4 and not to lose by conceding 14 goals and only scoring 2. That is negligence and extremely concerning and why faith in Bielsa's way has gone for me, and if any new coach is going to make a difference it has to be now.
The simple answer to how good are the U23 players and if they are Premier league quality is we don't really know because Bielsa has only really played most of them when he has been forced to play them through injuries.
Gelhardt Cresswell and Bate have however never let him down given the crumbs of opportunity he has afforded them...Maybe a new coach will utilise the younger players talents more than Bielsa has and we will get a better understanding of how good they really are.
Anyway at least Everton lost and Burnley didn't win so we are hanging in there just.
Jonty i nearly always agree with your views but when say Bielsa has more integrity and humility than Revie I don’t agree.We could debate those issues until the cows come home .But what isn’t at issue in my mind and I hope also in yours is that the Don did more for LeedsUnited than Marcelo could do if he was coach for 20 years.
comment by Macca: Emily Bishop's love child (U8194)
posted 1 hour, 49 minutes ago
Jonty, I get the general feel that you still think despite losing our last 4 games heavily and embarrassingly no one else except Bielsa can keep us up and you wouldn't favour a change of leadership.
Well I must respectfully disagree and I think even with KP etc the man marking system that Bielsa insists on implementing in every game that in the championship and last season in the Premier league was a success is not working anymore because our opponents now regularly nullify it and defeat us.
Except for West Ham away when they were knackered and we were rested and Burnley on New year's day when Burnley had injury and covid issues worse than us Leeds have been pretty much 2nd best in most of their games this season.
t's good while it lasted but it's now a busted flush, it isn't a simple case of when KP returns etc the Bielsa system will magically work again because it worked in the past, it's now regularly being overpowered and outplayed and teams are comfortably beating us now.
If Bielsa was prepared to abandon this vulnerable style of his and set us up how managers like Hodgson and Dyche do for their sides I too would not favour a change.
Yes that style can be dull but if Burnley and Watford can get decent results doing that against Man U and Spurs then we should have the players capable of matching them too.
Those saying the players won't be able to adapt to a different style is like the clingy husband or wife who's partner wishes to leave them and they say Oh you won't find anyone else. It's gaslighting nonsense to suggest professional athletes can't take a different tactical instruction and implement it.
Anyway it looks like your good self and half the other Leeds fans on this site are going to have to accept a new man is going to replace Bielsa as rumors across Europe and twitter land have reported Bielsa has been relieved of his duties by Jesse Marsch.
It's a sad end to his time with us but at least he goes without relegation on his cv.
If we do still get relegated then we must use the very generous parachute payments to add to the nucleus of what I think is a very talented crop of U 23 players we have and with some wise additions we can bounce back quickly if relegation does still happen but I personally haven't given up hope that with a brand new pair of eyes that adopts a more pragmatic team set up we can survive.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
comment by The Donn (U15142)
posted 1 minute ago
Jonty i nearly always agree with your views but when say Bielsa has more integrity and humility than Revie I don’t agree.We could debate those issues until the cows come home .But what isn’t at issue in my mind and I hope also in yours is that the Don did more for LeedsUnited than Marcelo could do if he was coach for 20 years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don talked up Leeds and achievements all the time, Bielsa never has.
Bielsa has never blamed refs, players, boards, takes all responsibility himself.
This is not about downplaying Don't achievements, its about integrity and humility and in my book we've never had anyone better than Bielsa for that.
Macca, re U23s, if they re so good, why do you think, when opportunities present themselves, that Bielsa doesnt play them?
Do you think he cant see how good they are, whilst you can?
Or is it perhaps that they're not that good, he just has no other players he can put on bench and he would rather not use them if he can avoid it.
These U23s are raved about season after season, and season after season they exit the club with little fanfare and their careers disappear without a trace.
The last academy product to make a name for himself was Jack Clarke......where is he now?
Don't think you understand what "integrity and humility" mean Dong, nobody should ever doubt Bielsa in relation to these two virtues no matter what you think about his managerial prowess. Marcello has these two values in spades.
Good point Jonty about other young players like Jack Clarke who have flattered to deceive but I and many others just think the current crop of Gelhardt Cresswell, Bate and Hjelda and possibly Summerville are a real find and blessing and assets to the squad that I personally think Bielsa should have used more.
I certainly think at least 3 of them would have been used more frequently by the likes of Watford Norwich Brentford Burnley and Everton who seem to benefit from promoting their younger players quite regularly.
Bielsa's judgement to not use the U23 players more is for some a good enough reason to think those players are simply not good enough and that's that and I'm not daring to suggest I know more than MB but to me and many others including ex pros like Alan Shearer for example, he has not failed to notice how good Gelhardt is and thinks he is certainly one player who is deserving of a regular first team start.
Bielsa leaving, just breaking as I write this, has still cemented his time with us as legendary which goes without saying but certain decisions and aspects of his managerial style for me especially over this last month or so have left me totally perplexed, conflicted and finally opposed to.
It's all about opinions which is great to thrash out on forums such as this in a civilised balanced manner about the club which we all passionately love and when all is said and done and the full post mortem of this season is conducted it will all be clearer whether today's events was a turning point or not for the betterment of Leeds United and its status as a Premier league club.
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Some observations from today
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posted on 26/2/22
I blame the owners 100% and have said this time and time again. They have failed to buy decent quality players, in particular a striker in the 40-50m category. Bielsa wants to play a style.of.football which is exhillerating however the current team /squad/makeup seem unable to implement it.
Part of me.thinks it's down to the small squad, the past 7 days (man u , Liverpool, spurs), being worn down without sufficient quality to come in and do it better or offer something new.
Part of me thinks that if bielsa goes, we will go down anyway as well will lose our style of football which they have all worked hard on achieving. Likewise...if he stays, I see us conceding goal after goal and struggling to stay up.
posted on 26/2/22
Agree, ive also read people on here trying to insinuate things about the players suddenly not believing in him or trying, and I I find that odd.
As far as I know phillips should be back for the villa game. We could also really do with cooper back.
If phillips is back I'm dropping firpo and putting dallas at leftback.
From what I've seen bielsa seems sure he can sort out the issues at the club and I personally I trust him enough to try
posted on 26/2/22
The keystone here is the players are trying, but simply not good enough to compete. This indictment is what is glaring and what is most concerning as the teams below us are showing that they have the quality to at least get something from games.
Endeavour can only take you so far. Ability to sustain an anchor in your level of competition is what keeps contenders in that space of elevated competition.
Key moments are where adept players are most effective. Our team for all the work rate and endeavour have in general little:
Composure (as you said think Novak at 30/40 down still winning the game)
Technical ability (The ability to use the ball in a way, that makes the oppositions job harder, eg Kane dropping deep and pinging through balls etc to his wingers)
Top level mental ability (to read the game and the oppositions plays, which players are on form that game and reacting to it.)
Top level physical performance ability (huff and puff gets less effective when you are met with the same endeavour but all the above (eg vs Everton game is a great example, they were in dire form yet matched us physically and showed the aforementioned traits against us)
Sad truth is, this team in the cold light of day, is in general not of this level and it’s showing in the story of the season.
posted on 26/2/22
3 things that have killed us:
1) Last season, results were skewed by absence of crowds and how that impacted matches, giving better chances for underdogg teams. It meant we finished in a high position that gave a false sense of what was to come.
2) Really, really poor investment. Rodrigo, James, Costa, Firpo and you could say Llorente and Koch for all the lack of real impact we've had from them.
3) Real lack of any under 23's coming through and making the grade. Even Gelhardt has only been a bit part player.
We have a team light on quality and confidence.
If I was AR, this is what I would do.
Meet with Bielsa, ask him if there is anything else he needs, anything out of the box, he has my complete support.
Then meet with the players, tell them the same thing.
Then meet with Leeds staff, tell them same thing, we are in this together and we're staying up.
Then I would say that in public, we are 100% behind the man who brought us up, no doubts about that, he is here until end of season and we are giving him everything he needs to succeed, just as we always have, so stop asking questions about his future, we are one united team going forwards and we are staying up.
posted on 26/2/22
Agree Jonty, said before the game 3-0 will be likely outcome today.
We don’t have a result against these established top 6 team in us this season, we always struggle when Phillips is missing, it’s usually only a few games, not 3/4 of a season. You add to that no captain Cooper, who will fight for everything, Llorente doesn’t have that instinct. Then up front, we have no deadly striker who will run the opposition defence and midfield into the ground for 90mins.
We just have to hope there are 3 worse teams in the run in. I think we can get results against the lower teams.
posted on 26/2/22
Another observation from today...
- Everton are showing real determination against Man City and are unlucky to be a goal down.
- Watford get a draw against Man U.
- Burnley get another point.
- Newcastle beat Brentford and have moved above us
- Villa go to Brighton and win
Clearly shows we are doing something wrong. How can Watford, awful Watford get.a point against Man U?
Why haven't Everon conceded 4-7 goals against Man C?
They try to adapt to different teams and styles of play. We don't. 1 way and that's it.
posted on 26/2/22
Another observation from today.
When Bielsa was asked if he thought players should be doing more for him after all he has done for them....he responded that he hasn't done anything expect provide a system. He took no credit for Philips, Bamford, Ayling, Dallas, Cooper, Klich...
He has more integrity and humility than any manager in my lifetime at Leeds and that includes Revie.
Whatever happens this season and I mean whatever, we have had a really special person in Bielsa and I hope he knows how much he's meant to Leeds fans and Leeds itself.
posted on 26/2/22
Jonty, I get the general feel that you still think despite losing our last 4 games heavily and embarrassingly no one else except Bielsa can keep us up and you wouldn't favour a change of leadership.
Well I must respectfully disagree and I think even with KP etc the man marking system that Bielsa insists on implementing in every game that in the championship and last season in the Premier league was a success is not working anymore because our opponents now regularly nullify it and defeat us.
Except for West Ham away when they were knackered and we were rested and Burnley on New year's day when Burnley had injury and covid issues worse than us Leeds have been pretty much 2nd best in most of their games this season.
t's good while it lasted but it's now a busted flush, it isn't a simple case of when KP returns etc the Bielsa system will magically work again because it worked in the past, it's now regularly being overpowered and outplayed and teams are comfortably beating us now.
If Bielsa was prepared to abandon this vulnerable style of his and set us up how managers like Hodgson and Dyche do for their sides I too would not favour a change.
Yes that style can be dull but if Burnley and Watford can get decent results doing that against Man U and Spurs then we should have the players capable of matching them too.
Those saying the players won't be able to adapt to a different style is like the clingy husband or wife who's partner wishes to leave them and they say Oh you won't find anyone else. It's gaslighting nonsense to suggest professional athletes can't take a different tactical instruction and implement it.
Anyway it looks like your good self and half the other Leeds fans on this site are going to have to accept a new man is going to replace Bielsa as rumors across Europe and twitter land have reported Bielsa has been relieved of his duties by Jesse Marsch.
It's a sad end to his time with us but at least he goes without relegation on his cv.
If we do still get relegated then we must use the very generous parachute payments to add to the nucleus of what I think is a very talented crop of U 23 players we have and with some wise additions we can bounce back quickly if relegation does still happen but I personally haven't given up hope that with a brand new pair of eyes that adopts a more pragmatic team set up we can survive.
posted on 26/2/22
I was expecting us to get a poor points return for February with the fixtures we had.
Unfortunately, the opposition have been scoring for fun.
What worries me is that even when Phillips, Bamford and Cooper are back in the team - how much confidence have the other players lost in our system of play?
For example, you could almost see Dallas' lack of confidence when presented with a keeper-less goal, Ayling's header and James' shot were other examples where they looked too scared to do what comes naturally.
Ultimately it may be the mental state of our players that determines our safety rather than who's fit to finish the season.
posted on 26/2/22
Macca, I don't think I've said that no one else except for Bielsa can keep us up, what I'm saying is its going to be really hard to find someone at this time, with our players to keep us up.
They cant buy anyone they cant change the tactics that much that quickly and with all due respect the players are here because of Bielsa.
I have never manintained that when the players like Philips come back it all changes, indeed, I'm the one who has been saying that even with those players we haven't been good this season.
As for th man marking, I don't agree that its been successful, I think its been our Achilles heel and it's just that this season it has hurt us the most.
If they're such a talented crop of players then why arent they playing?
These players are not good enough and most of them will be moved on this summer as happens every summer under Orta's tenure.
If Bielsa is sacked than I am expecting Philips to be off at the end of the season in addition to Raphinha and we're left with the hugely expensive Rodrigo and James, lasting symbols of the flawed transfer policy of Orta and AR, check we even still have De Bock on the books.
posted on 26/2/22
3 things that have killed us:
1) Last season, results were skewed by absence of crowds and how that impacted matches, giving better chances for underdogg teams. It meant we finished in a high position that gave a false sense of what was to come.
2) Really, really poor investment. Rodrigo, James, Costa, Firpo and you could say Llorente and Koch for all the lack of real impact we've had from them.
3) Real lack of any under 23's coming through and making the grade. Even Gelhardt has only been a bit part player.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't disagree with this Jonty but I get the impression that the team spirit that was there in 2019/20 has dissipated, the team look like they've never met before on occasion. Maybe that's an inevitability as the squad evolves. I think Bielsa's English is a major factor here but I look at the guys that left Berardi, Pablo and Gjianni and feel this ripped the heart out of the squad. I also think that Cooper, KP and Paddy being missing from the match-day squad have had a major impact on positivity.
posted on 26/2/22
Every pundit and commentator that has been involved in the game at a high level throughout their whole careers always say the same thing: it's great watching Leeds because it's always interesting. For the opposition.
We are wide open because of the systems we play, and because we are not scoring, we are getting hammered.
The players have completely lost all confidence. Shooting is terrible, passing is terrible, tackling is terrible (except for Forshaw), strength is minimal, movement is awkward and easy to spot most of the time, defending is terrible, putting ourselves under pressure every time we try to play out from the back is ridiculous, man-to-man marking leaves huge holes all over the park, man-to-man marking at corners kills us as it is easy to cause mayhem and let big players get free, throw-ins have never been good, corners and crossing are usually terrible.
And yet ... if you set up these same players differently, with a strong back 4, a diamond midfield that is structured with 3 solid players plus two wingers, and then a striker (not a winger or midfielder), and zonal play using diamonds and closing players down in midfield so they can't attack our backs so easily ... and we have a chance.
All of this is down to Bielsa. It is very very clear the way we play is killing us. And the players no longer believe in it or in themselves.
If that means they no longer believe in Bielsa, then ok. Either he or the club needs to do something about it.
posted on 26/2/22
Els, dont disagree on the impact that absentees havetaht you mention, just dont think everything changes when they're back.
I mentioned the other day that losing Pablo etc actually has had big impact. Pablo such a creator, Alioski would have been in his element v manu and you'd have had zero attitude problems with raphinha with Berardi around.
I don't think the language barrier has been any factor in this season's malaise, but spirit definitely not there, bt then again its easy to have that spirit when winning and it's why Cooper such an important leader.
Bielsa saved AR and Orta who were utterly clueless in letting Monk go, bringing in loads of dross players, not supporting TC, giving us Heck.....we were in serious trouble.
Bielsa brought us not only promotion, but made us the talk of English football's gave us an amazing Euros ride via Kalvin and created a bond of fans and club that has made AR millions.
Bielsa could have left after play off defeat to Derby but he committed his life to us and got us up after 16 years.
The first bit of bad results and club need to stand by him the same way he stood by the club.
AR's tenure will be short-lived if he shafts Bielsa.
posted on 26/2/22
Excellent comments
I'm in the stick with Bielsa camp but I can't disagree with the comments from both sides I just think it's a bad idea at this point in the season.
posted on 26/2/22
Fair enough Jonty my misunderstanding and I accept it is not going to be easy iether way if Bielsa is in fact replaced as some news outlets are reporting or he carries on setting us up in the same manner which as I've already stated is for me and a lot of other Leeds fans who despite everything still love and respect what he has done for the club, do not now see Leeds being able to get the better of anyone with this style in our remaining fixtures.
I thought after Villa, ok we will survive, but I based that also on us getting 4 points from the next 4 but Bielsa's selections, set ups, use of substitutes and post match interviews after 4 consequetive defeats, 3 of which have been embarrassing, has just so quickly destroyed confidence and moral that the realisation is for a lot of Leeds fans is Bielsa's methods and reluctance to change is going to lead us straight back into the Championship.
I accepted a couple of defeats were likely but not 4 and not to lose by conceding 14 goals and only scoring 2. That is negligence and extremely concerning and why faith in Bielsa's way has gone for me, and if any new coach is going to make a difference it has to be now.
The simple answer to how good are the U23 players and if they are Premier league quality is we don't really know because Bielsa has only really played most of them when he has been forced to play them through injuries.
Gelhardt Cresswell and Bate have however never let him down given the crumbs of opportunity he has afforded them...Maybe a new coach will utilise the younger players talents more than Bielsa has and we will get a better understanding of how good they really are.
Anyway at least Everton lost and Burnley didn't win so we are hanging in there just.
posted on 26/2/22
Jonty i nearly always agree with your views but when say Bielsa has more integrity and humility than Revie I don’t agree.We could debate those issues until the cows come home .But what isn’t at issue in my mind and I hope also in yours is that the Don did more for LeedsUnited than Marcelo could do if he was coach for 20 years.
posted on 26/2/22
comment by Macca: Emily Bishop's love child (U8194)
posted 1 hour, 49 minutes ago
Jonty, I get the general feel that you still think despite losing our last 4 games heavily and embarrassingly no one else except Bielsa can keep us up and you wouldn't favour a change of leadership.
Well I must respectfully disagree and I think even with KP etc the man marking system that Bielsa insists on implementing in every game that in the championship and last season in the Premier league was a success is not working anymore because our opponents now regularly nullify it and defeat us.
Except for West Ham away when they were knackered and we were rested and Burnley on New year's day when Burnley had injury and covid issues worse than us Leeds have been pretty much 2nd best in most of their games this season.
t's good while it lasted but it's now a busted flush, it isn't a simple case of when KP returns etc the Bielsa system will magically work again because it worked in the past, it's now regularly being overpowered and outplayed and teams are comfortably beating us now.
If Bielsa was prepared to abandon this vulnerable style of his and set us up how managers like Hodgson and Dyche do for their sides I too would not favour a change.
Yes that style can be dull but if Burnley and Watford can get decent results doing that against Man U and Spurs then we should have the players capable of matching them too.
Those saying the players won't be able to adapt to a different style is like the clingy husband or wife who's partner wishes to leave them and they say Oh you won't find anyone else. It's gaslighting nonsense to suggest professional athletes can't take a different tactical instruction and implement it.
Anyway it looks like your good self and half the other Leeds fans on this site are going to have to accept a new man is going to replace Bielsa as rumors across Europe and twitter land have reported Bielsa has been relieved of his duties by Jesse Marsch.
It's a sad end to his time with us but at least he goes without relegation on his cv.
If we do still get relegated then we must use the very generous parachute payments to add to the nucleus of what I think is a very talented crop of U 23 players we have and with some wise additions we can bounce back quickly if relegation does still happen but I personally haven't given up hope that with a brand new pair of eyes that adopts a more pragmatic team set up we can survive.
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posted on 26/2/22
comment by The Donn (U15142)
posted 1 minute ago
Jonty i nearly always agree with your views but when say Bielsa has more integrity and humility than Revie I don’t agree.We could debate those issues until the cows come home .But what isn’t at issue in my mind and I hope also in yours is that the Don did more for LeedsUnited than Marcelo could do if he was coach for 20 years.
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Don talked up Leeds and achievements all the time, Bielsa never has.
Bielsa has never blamed refs, players, boards, takes all responsibility himself.
This is not about downplaying Don't achievements, its about integrity and humility and in my book we've never had anyone better than Bielsa for that.
Macca, re U23s, if they re so good, why do you think, when opportunities present themselves, that Bielsa doesnt play them?
Do you think he cant see how good they are, whilst you can?
Or is it perhaps that they're not that good, he just has no other players he can put on bench and he would rather not use them if he can avoid it.
These U23s are raved about season after season, and season after season they exit the club with little fanfare and their careers disappear without a trace.
The last academy product to make a name for himself was Jack Clarke......where is he now?
posted on 26/2/22
Don't think you understand what "integrity and humility" mean Dong, nobody should ever doubt Bielsa in relation to these two virtues no matter what you think about his managerial prowess. Marcello has these two values in spades.
posted on 26/2/22
Good point Jonty about other young players like Jack Clarke who have flattered to deceive but I and many others just think the current crop of Gelhardt Cresswell, Bate and Hjelda and possibly Summerville are a real find and blessing and assets to the squad that I personally think Bielsa should have used more.
I certainly think at least 3 of them would have been used more frequently by the likes of Watford Norwich Brentford Burnley and Everton who seem to benefit from promoting their younger players quite regularly.
Bielsa's judgement to not use the U23 players more is for some a good enough reason to think those players are simply not good enough and that's that and I'm not daring to suggest I know more than MB but to me and many others including ex pros like Alan Shearer for example, he has not failed to notice how good Gelhardt is and thinks he is certainly one player who is deserving of a regular first team start.
Bielsa leaving, just breaking as I write this, has still cemented his time with us as legendary which goes without saying but certain decisions and aspects of his managerial style for me especially over this last month or so have left me totally perplexed, conflicted and finally opposed to.
It's all about opinions which is great to thrash out on forums such as this in a civilised balanced manner about the club which we all passionately love and when all is said and done and the full post mortem of this season is conducted it will all be clearer whether today's events was a turning point or not for the betterment of Leeds United and its status as a Premier league club.
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