The incident
The victim Denise Clair said that she had gone out for a drink with friend on New Year’s Day in 2011 but had no recollection of leaving the pub for a nightclub in Bathgate.
Multiple witnesses, including a member of security staff at the venue, told the court that Ms Clair ‘needed to go home’ as she could not stand up straight or speak properly.
The following morning, Ms Clair said she then found herself naked and in pain at a flat in Greig Crescent in nearby Armadale.
Weeks after the incident, after DNA evidence was obtained from swabs taken from her, it was discovered that s3xual intercour5e had taken place with David Goodwillie.
Both Goodwillie and Robertson admitted that s3xual intercour5e had taken place but said that it was consensual. However, Ms Clair said that she was incapable of giving free agreement to s3x because of her alcohol consumption.
So.. the girl's drunk and can't remember anything, but the next morning she absolutely says she didn't consent to s3x... How could she possibly know this..?
And the judge ruled in her favour?
I think it's more if you're absolutely wrecked you're perhaps not in a position to give proper consent. Mitigating circumstances would of course or should in my opinion take into account how drunk the other person or persons are.
You can’t be 1,50 or 51% guilty - it is all or nothing and he was deemed so under civil action so there’s no point going over old ground. Not sure why he should have to go abroad. He’d probably make more bringing a ECHR case but it will take 5 years likely. Bound to be a lawyer take it on for the publicity. I’m sure they’ll find a tradesman with a similar past working on council property?
Said it the last time, one day someone will think fck it there’s no point carrying on any more such is the pitchfork mentality. Now I acknowledge the girl maybe already went through that. There’s are no winners but two wrongs don’t make it right either.
comment by Miller - Bounce Game Champion (U9310)
posted 4 minutes ago
I think it's more if you're absolutely wrecked you're perhaps not in a position to give proper consent. Mitigating circumstances would of course or should in my opinion take into account how drunk the other person or persons are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely mate.
I'm certain I'm not the only guy who's blacked out with the drink/mwi, only to wake up with no memory and look to see and absolute horror lying next to them. I sure as fvck didn't consent to that, but the beergoogles do mad stuff to you.
Imagine waking up the next morning and a lassie you don't even remember ever seeing, is lying next to you saying you raped her?
Two guys from my town pumped a lassie when they were all sixteen and drunk. She pumped one, then an hour later pumped the other. Her pals called her a 5lut the next day, so she said she was raped. The guy's lives were ruined - until she eventually came out and told the truth.
comment by Silver (U6112)
posted 25 minutes ago
You can’t be 1,50 or 51% guilty - it is all or nothing and he was deemed so under civil action so there’s no point going over old ground. Not sure why he should have to go abroad. He’d probably make more bringing a ECHR case but it will take 5 years likely. Bound to be a lawyer take it on for the publicity. I’m sure they’ll find a tradesman with a similar past working on council property?
Said it the last time, one day someone will think fck it there’s no point carrying on any more such is the pitchfork mentality. Now I acknowledge the girl maybe already went through that. There’s are no winners but two wrongs don’t make it right either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He shouldn’t have to go abroad
But if he has to make a living at football then it’s perhaps an option
Something similar happened to Ciaran McKenna now at Thistle. I took an interest cos it is when he went to play college soccer, and I knew his dad from Celtic and the same uni was interested in my lad. It was in the papers.
Lassie claimed rape and the uni tried to expell h8m but made a mess of the case, and he won plus compo. Basically, she’d both tried it before and confided in a friend she was gonna try again.
Plenty of players have criminal records
We have a Scottish international who did time for GBH
We have a manager who did time for drug running
Yes sax crime gets more attention for the most part correctly
But this is OTT, the guy needs to earn and has been through the system
‘ So.. the girl's drunk and can't remember anything, but the next morning she absolutely says she didn't consent to s3x... How could she possibly know this..?’
Because she had witnesses to confirm that she couldn’t stand upright or speak properly. You’ve literally quoted that. I’m sure that you’ve also read the full reasons why the judge ruled in her favour-a fair part being that Goodwillie and his pal contradicted each other’s evidence.
It looks likely that if he wants to continue his career, he’ll probably have to move abroad. In the modern age, I’m not even sure that’ll be of any use-there’s every chance that fans abroad will be just as vehement in not wanting him.
I’ve no idea if it would have made a difference if he’d been convicted in the original case rather than the civil case. Part of his ‘punishment’ has probably been the fact that his career has played out at a lower level than it possibly could have.
There’s arguments on both sides as to how this has played out and whether that’s right or wrong. Probably if you’ve been directly affected by this sort of incident or have someone close having been affected would make your stance stronger.
He’s paying a price for his actions.
Patterson getting a start v Boreham Wood
Patterson subbed at half time.
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 8 minutes ago
Patterson subbed at half time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh dear, I only watched about 25m but he looked one of the brighter sparks.
Only saw the last 5 mins of the first half, and he was a bit wasteful.
Kenny seem to have moved to right back, and set up the goal.
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 2 hours, 31 minutes ago
‘ So.. the girl's drunk and can't remember anything, but the next morning she absolutely says she didn't consent to s3x... How could she possibly know this..?’
Because she had witnesses to confirm that she couldn’t stand upright or speak properly. You’ve literally quoted that. I’m sure that you’ve also read the full reasons why the judge ruled in her favour-a fair part being that Goodwillie and his pal contradicted each other’s evidence.
It looks likely that if he wants to continue his career, he’ll probably have to move abroad. In the modern age, I’m not even sure that’ll be of any use-there’s every chance that fans abroad will be just as vehement in not wanting him.
I’ve no idea if it would have made a difference if he’d been convicted in the original case rather than the civil case. Part of his ‘punishment’ has probably been the fact that his career has played out at a lower level than it possibly could have.
There’s arguments on both sides as to how this has played out and whether that’s right or wrong. Probably if you’ve been directly affected by this sort of incident or have someone close having been affected would make your stance stronger.
He’s paying a price for his actions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're sure I've also read the reasons why the judge ruled in her favour..? That's where you're wrong - No I haven't heard/read the reasons.
Their stories contradicted?
As do many people that were out their nut after a mad session.
My stance has nothing to do with anything other than seeing people get justice or being treated fairly.
My whole point is how can the girl know if she consented or not considering the absolute state she was in? Did she have witnesses to say she didn't?
And what if you wake up next to a girl, both of you were blackout drunk and she says you raped her, even though at the time she could have consented? Fvck being that poor bastirt.
A criminal case couldnt prosecute him, but a civil case the judge found him guilty.
Rape is an abhorrent crime and rapists should be punished to the full extent of the law. Just be sure that those that are proven to be are 100% guilty.
‘You're sure I've also read the reasons why the judge ruled in her favour..? That's where you're wrong - No I haven't heard/read the reasons.’
Maybe you should have read them then?! I read 2 reports, and both quoted what the judge said.
‘ As do many people that were out their nut after a mad session.’
That’s a fair point. Makes you wonder if someone who’s in that condition would be able to provide consent to 2 men?! It’s not about whether she remembers or not-it’s whether she was able or not.
Have a read:
https://www.scotsman.com/news/people/raith-rovers-who-is-david-goodwillie-what-did-a-judge-rule-in-2017-3551381
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
‘You're sure I've also read the reasons why the judge ruled in her favour..? That's where you're wrong - No I haven't heard/read the reasons.’
Maybe you should have read them then?! I read 2 reports, and both quoted what the judge said.
‘ As do many people that were out their nut after a mad session.’
That’s a fair point. Makes you wonder if someone who’s in that condition would be able to provide consent to 2 men?! It’s not about whether she remembers or not-it’s whether she was able or not.
Have a read:
https://www.scotsman.com/news/people/raith-rovers-who-is-david-goodwillie-what-did-a-judge-rule-in-2017-3551381
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Full judgement here;
https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=d22e28a7-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7
However, Ms Clair said that she was incapable of giving free agreement to s3x because of her alcohol consumption.
This is the crux of it.
The number of times we've all done things under the influence of excessive alcohol consumption, and been in fear and deep regret the next day.
Our judgement is obviously impaired and we choose the wrong option at the time. No one knows what happened at the time, even the victim or the accused, so how does a judge know exactly what happened..?
On the balance of probability...? No, not for me, it can ruin lives joining the dots.
Imagine for a second that the guys are innocent.
comment by Zico 🏴 (U21900)
posted 46 minutes ago
However, Ms Clair said that she was incapable of giving free agreement to s3x because of her alcohol consumption.
This is the crux of it.
The number of times we've all done things under the influence of excessive alcohol consumption, and been in fear and deep regret the next day.
Our judgement is obviously impaired and we choose the wrong option at the time. No one knows what happened at the time, even the victim or the accused, so how does a judge know exactly what happened..?
On the balance of probability...? No, not for me, it can ruin lives joining the dots.
Imagine for a second that the guys are innocent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hard to imagine when the judgement stated that both of the guys were not credible or reliable and appeared to have a preference for remarkably clear recollections when it was in their interest but equally impressively vague when it could be prejudicial.
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 1 hour, 12 minutes ago
comment by Zico 🏴 (U21900)
posted 46 minutes ago
However, Ms Clair said that she was incapable of giving free agreement to s3x because of her alcohol consumption.
This is the crux of it.
The number of times we've all done things under the influence of excessive alcohol consumption, and been in fear and deep regret the next day.
Our judgement is obviously impaired and we choose the wrong option at the time. No one knows what happened at the time, even the victim or the accused, so how does a judge know exactly what happened..?
On the balance of probability...? No, not for me, it can ruin lives joining the dots.
Imagine for a second that the guys are innocent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hard to imagine when the judgement stated that both of the guys were not credible or reliable and appeared to have a preference for remarkably clear recollections when it was in their interest but equally impressively vague when it could be prejudicial.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently she was having shex with one of them, then started giving the other a BJ..
if that's true, her case is blown out of the water
comment by Zico 🏴 (U21900)
posted 1 hour, 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 1 hour, 12 minutes ago
comment by Zico 🏴 (U21900)
posted 46 minutes ago
However, Ms Clair said that she was incapable of giving free agreement to s3x because of her alcohol consumption.
This is the crux of it.
The number of times we've all done things under the influence of excessive alcohol consumption, and been in fear and deep regret the next day.
Our judgement is obviously impaired and we choose the wrong option at the time. No one knows what happened at the time, even the victim or the accused, so how does a judge know exactly what happened..?
On the balance of probability...? No, not for me, it can ruin lives joining the dots.
Imagine for a second that the guys are innocent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hard to imagine when the judgement stated that both of the guys were not credible or reliable and appeared to have a preference for remarkably clear recollections when it was in their interest but equally impressively vague when it could be prejudicial.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently she was having shex with one of them, then started giving the other a BJ..
if that's true, her case is blown out of the water
----------------------------------------------------------------------
According to witnesses who’s testimony was considered not credible by the judge 🤷♂️
Sign in if you want to comment
Celtic 2 St Mirren 0
Page 5 of 5
posted on 3/3/22
The incident
The victim Denise Clair said that she had gone out for a drink with friend on New Year’s Day in 2011 but had no recollection of leaving the pub for a nightclub in Bathgate.
Multiple witnesses, including a member of security staff at the venue, told the court that Ms Clair ‘needed to go home’ as she could not stand up straight or speak properly.
The following morning, Ms Clair said she then found herself naked and in pain at a flat in Greig Crescent in nearby Armadale.
Weeks after the incident, after DNA evidence was obtained from swabs taken from her, it was discovered that s3xual intercour5e had taken place with David Goodwillie.
Both Goodwillie and Robertson admitted that s3xual intercour5e had taken place but said that it was consensual. However, Ms Clair said that she was incapable of giving free agreement to s3x because of her alcohol consumption.
So.. the girl's drunk and can't remember anything, but the next morning she absolutely says she didn't consent to s3x... How could she possibly know this..?
And the judge ruled in her favour?
posted on 3/3/22
I think it's more if you're absolutely wrecked you're perhaps not in a position to give proper consent. Mitigating circumstances would of course or should in my opinion take into account how drunk the other person or persons are.
posted on 3/3/22
You can’t be 1,50 or 51% guilty - it is all or nothing and he was deemed so under civil action so there’s no point going over old ground. Not sure why he should have to go abroad. He’d probably make more bringing a ECHR case but it will take 5 years likely. Bound to be a lawyer take it on for the publicity. I’m sure they’ll find a tradesman with a similar past working on council property?
Said it the last time, one day someone will think fck it there’s no point carrying on any more such is the pitchfork mentality. Now I acknowledge the girl maybe already went through that. There’s are no winners but two wrongs don’t make it right either.
posted on 3/3/22
comment by Miller - Bounce Game Champion (U9310)
posted 4 minutes ago
I think it's more if you're absolutely wrecked you're perhaps not in a position to give proper consent. Mitigating circumstances would of course or should in my opinion take into account how drunk the other person or persons are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely mate.
I'm certain I'm not the only guy who's blacked out with the drink/mwi, only to wake up with no memory and look to see and absolute horror lying next to them. I sure as fvck didn't consent to that, but the beergoogles do mad stuff to you.
Imagine waking up the next morning and a lassie you don't even remember ever seeing, is lying next to you saying you raped her?
Two guys from my town pumped a lassie when they were all sixteen and drunk. She pumped one, then an hour later pumped the other. Her pals called her a 5lut the next day, so she said she was raped. The guy's lives were ruined - until she eventually came out and told the truth.
posted on 3/3/22
comment by Silver (U6112)
posted 25 minutes ago
You can’t be 1,50 or 51% guilty - it is all or nothing and he was deemed so under civil action so there’s no point going over old ground. Not sure why he should have to go abroad. He’d probably make more bringing a ECHR case but it will take 5 years likely. Bound to be a lawyer take it on for the publicity. I’m sure they’ll find a tradesman with a similar past working on council property?
Said it the last time, one day someone will think fck it there’s no point carrying on any more such is the pitchfork mentality. Now I acknowledge the girl maybe already went through that. There’s are no winners but two wrongs don’t make it right either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He shouldn’t have to go abroad
But if he has to make a living at football then it’s perhaps an option
posted on 3/3/22
Something similar happened to Ciaran McKenna now at Thistle. I took an interest cos it is when he went to play college soccer, and I knew his dad from Celtic and the same uni was interested in my lad. It was in the papers.
Lassie claimed rape and the uni tried to expell h8m but made a mess of the case, and he won plus compo. Basically, she’d both tried it before and confided in a friend she was gonna try again.
posted on 3/3/22
Plenty of players have criminal records
We have a Scottish international who did time for GBH
We have a manager who did time for drug running
Yes sax crime gets more attention for the most part correctly
But this is OTT, the guy needs to earn and has been through the system
posted on 3/3/22
‘ So.. the girl's drunk and can't remember anything, but the next morning she absolutely says she didn't consent to s3x... How could she possibly know this..?’
Because she had witnesses to confirm that she couldn’t stand upright or speak properly. You’ve literally quoted that. I’m sure that you’ve also read the full reasons why the judge ruled in her favour-a fair part being that Goodwillie and his pal contradicted each other’s evidence.
It looks likely that if he wants to continue his career, he’ll probably have to move abroad. In the modern age, I’m not even sure that’ll be of any use-there’s every chance that fans abroad will be just as vehement in not wanting him.
I’ve no idea if it would have made a difference if he’d been convicted in the original case rather than the civil case. Part of his ‘punishment’ has probably been the fact that his career has played out at a lower level than it possibly could have.
There’s arguments on both sides as to how this has played out and whether that’s right or wrong. Probably if you’ve been directly affected by this sort of incident or have someone close having been affected would make your stance stronger.
He’s paying a price for his actions.
posted on 3/3/22
Patterson getting a start v Boreham Wood
posted on 3/3/22
Patterson subbed at half time.
posted on 3/3/22
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 8 minutes ago
Patterson subbed at half time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh dear, I only watched about 25m but he looked one of the brighter sparks.
posted on 3/3/22
Only saw the last 5 mins of the first half, and he was a bit wasteful.
Kenny seem to have moved to right back, and set up the goal.
posted on 3/3/22
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 2 hours, 31 minutes ago
‘ So.. the girl's drunk and can't remember anything, but the next morning she absolutely says she didn't consent to s3x... How could she possibly know this..?’
Because she had witnesses to confirm that she couldn’t stand upright or speak properly. You’ve literally quoted that. I’m sure that you’ve also read the full reasons why the judge ruled in her favour-a fair part being that Goodwillie and his pal contradicted each other’s evidence.
It looks likely that if he wants to continue his career, he’ll probably have to move abroad. In the modern age, I’m not even sure that’ll be of any use-there’s every chance that fans abroad will be just as vehement in not wanting him.
I’ve no idea if it would have made a difference if he’d been convicted in the original case rather than the civil case. Part of his ‘punishment’ has probably been the fact that his career has played out at a lower level than it possibly could have.
There’s arguments on both sides as to how this has played out and whether that’s right or wrong. Probably if you’ve been directly affected by this sort of incident or have someone close having been affected would make your stance stronger.
He’s paying a price for his actions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're sure I've also read the reasons why the judge ruled in her favour..? That's where you're wrong - No I haven't heard/read the reasons.
Their stories contradicted?
As do many people that were out their nut after a mad session.
My stance has nothing to do with anything other than seeing people get justice or being treated fairly.
My whole point is how can the girl know if she consented or not considering the absolute state she was in? Did she have witnesses to say she didn't?
And what if you wake up next to a girl, both of you were blackout drunk and she says you raped her, even though at the time she could have consented? Fvck being that poor bastirt.
A criminal case couldnt prosecute him, but a civil case the judge found him guilty.
Rape is an abhorrent crime and rapists should be punished to the full extent of the law. Just be sure that those that are proven to be are 100% guilty.
posted on 3/3/22
‘You're sure I've also read the reasons why the judge ruled in her favour..? That's where you're wrong - No I haven't heard/read the reasons.’
Maybe you should have read them then?! I read 2 reports, and both quoted what the judge said.
‘ As do many people that were out their nut after a mad session.’
That’s a fair point. Makes you wonder if someone who’s in that condition would be able to provide consent to 2 men?! It’s not about whether she remembers or not-it’s whether she was able or not.
Have a read:
https://www.scotsman.com/news/people/raith-rovers-who-is-david-goodwillie-what-did-a-judge-rule-in-2017-3551381
posted on 4/3/22
comment by My POV (U10636)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
‘You're sure I've also read the reasons why the judge ruled in her favour..? That's where you're wrong - No I haven't heard/read the reasons.’
Maybe you should have read them then?! I read 2 reports, and both quoted what the judge said.
‘ As do many people that were out their nut after a mad session.’
That’s a fair point. Makes you wonder if someone who’s in that condition would be able to provide consent to 2 men?! It’s not about whether she remembers or not-it’s whether she was able or not.
Have a read:
https://www.scotsman.com/news/people/raith-rovers-who-is-david-goodwillie-what-did-a-judge-rule-in-2017-3551381
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Full judgement here;
https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=d22e28a7-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7
posted on 4/3/22
However, Ms Clair said that she was incapable of giving free agreement to s3x because of her alcohol consumption.
This is the crux of it.
The number of times we've all done things under the influence of excessive alcohol consumption, and been in fear and deep regret the next day.
Our judgement is obviously impaired and we choose the wrong option at the time. No one knows what happened at the time, even the victim or the accused, so how does a judge know exactly what happened..?
On the balance of probability...? No, not for me, it can ruin lives joining the dots.
Imagine for a second that the guys are innocent.
posted on 4/3/22
comment by Zico 🏴 (U21900)
posted 46 minutes ago
However, Ms Clair said that she was incapable of giving free agreement to s3x because of her alcohol consumption.
This is the crux of it.
The number of times we've all done things under the influence of excessive alcohol consumption, and been in fear and deep regret the next day.
Our judgement is obviously impaired and we choose the wrong option at the time. No one knows what happened at the time, even the victim or the accused, so how does a judge know exactly what happened..?
On the balance of probability...? No, not for me, it can ruin lives joining the dots.
Imagine for a second that the guys are innocent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hard to imagine when the judgement stated that both of the guys were not credible or reliable and appeared to have a preference for remarkably clear recollections when it was in their interest but equally impressively vague when it could be prejudicial.
posted on 4/3/22
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 1 hour, 12 minutes ago
comment by Zico 🏴 (U21900)
posted 46 minutes ago
However, Ms Clair said that she was incapable of giving free agreement to s3x because of her alcohol consumption.
This is the crux of it.
The number of times we've all done things under the influence of excessive alcohol consumption, and been in fear and deep regret the next day.
Our judgement is obviously impaired and we choose the wrong option at the time. No one knows what happened at the time, even the victim or the accused, so how does a judge know exactly what happened..?
On the balance of probability...? No, not for me, it can ruin lives joining the dots.
Imagine for a second that the guys are innocent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hard to imagine when the judgement stated that both of the guys were not credible or reliable and appeared to have a preference for remarkably clear recollections when it was in their interest but equally impressively vague when it could be prejudicial.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently she was having shex with one of them, then started giving the other a BJ..
if that's true, her case is blown out of the water
posted on 4/3/22
comment by Zico 🏴 (U21900)
posted 1 hour, 2 minutes ago
comment by bmcl1987 (U14177)
posted 1 hour, 12 minutes ago
comment by Zico 🏴 (U21900)
posted 46 minutes ago
However, Ms Clair said that she was incapable of giving free agreement to s3x because of her alcohol consumption.
This is the crux of it.
The number of times we've all done things under the influence of excessive alcohol consumption, and been in fear and deep regret the next day.
Our judgement is obviously impaired and we choose the wrong option at the time. No one knows what happened at the time, even the victim or the accused, so how does a judge know exactly what happened..?
On the balance of probability...? No, not for me, it can ruin lives joining the dots.
Imagine for a second that the guys are innocent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hard to imagine when the judgement stated that both of the guys were not credible or reliable and appeared to have a preference for remarkably clear recollections when it was in their interest but equally impressively vague when it could be prejudicial.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently she was having shex with one of them, then started giving the other a BJ..
if that's true, her case is blown out of the water
----------------------------------------------------------------------
According to witnesses who’s testimony was considered not credible by the judge 🤷♂️
Page 5 of 5