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posted on 6/7/22

comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by HEY, WE'RE BACK (U22866)
posted 42 seconds ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 27 seconds ago
History is also going to look back at Brexit and say:

1. It was comfortably the stupidest act of self-sabotage of the political era.

2. Even if we accept it had to go ahead, the Tories’ handling of it, particularly by Johnson’s cabal, was spectacularly incompetent and has resulted in a truly desperate outcome for the UK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s a matter of opinion

I believe history will say it’s the best the UK did in the past 50 years - to separate ourselves from the cesspit and corruption of the EU and to own our own independence - the best thing Britain has done, and history will do on to show and prove this

But then again, that’s just MY opinion
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is an opinion; but there are also measurable outcomes, both quantitative (economic growth, balance of trade, inward investment, productivity, debt, quality of life indices, healthcare outcomes, happiness indices, etc.) and qualitative (strategic geopolitical power, diplomatic reach and influence, academic and cultural influence, environmental and public health protections, safety standards, etc.).

None of those are going to shine a positive light on Brexit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As I say, it all depends on when such ‘outcomes’ and ‘data’ are measured - 6 months after Brexit, 1 year, 10 years, 50 years?

There will always be ups and downs in the economy, currency, society - that’s what makes the world work - the unpredictability of life

However, in general, I think and believe history will go to show that Brexit ultimately benefitted the UK more so than if it had decided to remain

There’s no way that being a part of an unelected, self-appointed, corrupt gravy train such as the EU was ever in the best interests of the UK

posted on 6/7/22

comment by HEY, WE'RE BACK (U22866)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? Who do you think you are kidding Mr.... (U3126)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by HEY, WE'RE BACK (U22866)
posted 3 seconds ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 27 seconds ago
History is also going to look back at Brexit and say:

1. It was comfortably the stupidest act of self-sabotage of the political era.

2. Even if we accept it had to go ahead, the Tories’ handling of it, particularly by Johnson’s cabal, was spectacularly incompetent and has resulted in a truly desperate outcome for the UK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s a matter of opinion

I believe history will say it’s the best the UK did in the past 50 years - to separate ourselves from the cesspit and corruption of the EU and to own our own independence - the best thing Britain has done, and history will do on to show and prove this

But then again, that’s just MY opinion
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just like flat Earthers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You do realise that those who stated the earth was round before it was actually proven to be so, were also ridiculed, demonised and harassed for their beliefs

Trust that helps with your supposedly cheap shots
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As Rosso noted there are quantifiable metrics on how to gauge Brexit. All of which demonstrate poor outcomes. So whilst you are entitled to your opinion, it's not one based on reality.

Just like flat Earthers.

posted on 6/7/22

comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? Who do you think ... (U3126)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by tcruel87 (U11882)
posted 30 minutes ago
comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? Who do you think ... (U3126)
posted 2 hours, 19 minutes ago
comment by tcruel87 (U11882)
posted 2 minutes ago
Gordon Brown and Theresa May are the joint holders of worst PMs in history.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a fan of either but Johnson (by some distance) the worst PM in living memory. Utterly out of his depth, and not even competent enough to fulfil ministerial duties never mind the office of PM.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He delivered Brexit (I appreciate that's subjective, but for the majority who voted in the EU referendum that's a good thing), I've been living a mostly free life in the 2nd half of 2021 and all of 2022 as opposed to many other countries who are still obsessed with COVID. Yes our pre vaccine response was diabolical but I after mass vaccine rollout I give it a 10/10, and the UK has lead the world in support of Ukraine. His handling of the economy when things have not been going well is horrific through, and ultimately that's the most important thing so he has to go.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In regard to brexit it was akin to a surgeon completing a complex 6hr procedure in 20mins. The TCA is a complete mess. And anyone with a passing interest on trade policy and/or customs facilitation will tell you the same. The UKgov will be in perpetual negotiations with the EU.

Covid also similarly mishandled with tens of thousands of deaths a direct result of the government's choices. Which is now a matter of public record (High Court judgment) as being unlawful.

Then there's the PPE scandal. The vaccine roll-out as we now know wasn't as successful as we were led to believe, with all the government's eggs put in Astrazeneca's basket. Resulting in the UK lagging behind most of Europe. And millions of pounds of vaccines being destroyed. Circa 8 billion of public money written off due to fraud.

Again the UKs support for Ukraine has also been misrepresented. Other countries have done much much more.

https://www.statista.com/chart/27331/countries-committing-the-most-of-their-gdp-to-ukraine-aid/

And the diabolical visa scheme. The only country in Europe to do so. Which incidentally has been exposed as less than useful as refugees are getting round it via Ireland (and the CTA) as highlighted today in parliament.

Ukraine has been a convenient guise to draw attention away from national issues.

In short when you actually look at the issues the government champion as a success, they're nearly always telling porkies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That is so dishonest, we did the important thing (vaccinating the over 50s) long before anyone else. Others overtook us because their medical bodies approved vaccines for teenagers before us. The JCVI were slower with us, which is something I appreciate when considering decisions where benefit:cost becomes more marginal.

https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1542486408018989057

I think I know the Twitter thread you are referring to. It is desperate and does more harm to your argument when you claim the government failed at things they clearly didn't fail at. You come across as having a massive chip in your shoulder and when someone can't acknowledge good in objective good things there is no point engaging.

posted on 6/7/22

And anyway I wasn't talking about the vaccine rollout I was referring to the fact that I have lived a normal life since while many countries still had restrictions, in fact some like the Netherlands even had another locked down Christmas.

posted on 6/7/22

To celebrate the vaccine rollout when their other actions demonstrably caused tens of thousands of deaths seems a bit counter intuitive to me.

posted on 6/7/22

comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 1 second ago
To celebrate the vaccine rollout when their other actions demonstrably caused tens of thousands of deaths seems a bit counter intuitive to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It's like championing Dr Harold Shipman because he actually treated some of his patients.

posted on 6/7/22

Flat Eathers

And as I say, it was the people who said the world was round (before it was proven to be so) that were demonised, ridiculed and even killed for holding such beliefs….

Galileo said the earth went round the sun. He was ordered to recant or die.

For 50 years doctors told their patients to smoke for their own good.

And it was ridiculous to say that doctors should wash their hands between delivering babies. The man suggesting they should was struck off… till they discovered years later the babies stopped dying.

Flat Earthers is that really the best you can come up with ?

posted on 6/7/22

comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
posted 34 seconds ago
comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 1 second ago
To celebrate the vaccine rollout when their other actions demonstrably caused tens of thousands of deaths seems a bit counter intuitive to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It's like championing Dr Harold Shipman because he actually treated some of his patients.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How’s that?

Surely it’s more about acknowledging all people have good and bad in them, someone like Harold Shipman for all his atrocities and appalling actions doesn’t mean that he didn’t ever do anything good or helpful either?

ALL human beings are more that their actions - that doesn’t excuse the responsibility we all should face and take, but we are all worth more than what we actually do

posted on 6/7/22

No we're not, we're defined by our actions. Are you drunk?

posted on 6/7/22

comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 13 minutes ago
To celebrate the vaccine rollout when their other actions demonstrably caused tens of thousands of deaths seems a bit counter intuitive to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We were roughly midtable in the EU table with excess deaths by the time vaccines were approved.

posted on 6/7/22

comment by HEY, WE'RE BACK (U22866)
posted 3 minutes ago
Flat Eathers

And as I say, it was the people who said the world was round (before it was proven to be so) that were demonised, ridiculed and even killed for holding such beliefs….

Galileo said the earth went round the sun. He was ordered to recant or die.

For 50 years doctors told their patients to smoke for their own good.

And it was ridiculous to say that doctors should wash their hands between delivering babies. The man suggesting they should was struck off… till they discovered years later the babies stopped dying.

Flat Earthersis that really the best you can come up with ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay.... unreservedly believes government propaganda, whilst ignoring actual data, (material evidence) facts and figures.

I could provide (as regular contributors to the politics thread might note) links to a host of data in support but I'd doubt you'd accept academic/qualified assessment as it would wholly destroy your perception of Brexit.

The UKGov has chosen to erect a host of non-tarriff barriers with its largest and closest trading partners. When before there were none. This has (and will unless/until there's a change of government policy) resulted in impediments to trade etc. Which has cost the public purse billions in lost revenues. Less money to spend on public services and improve Joe Public's quality of life.

The suggestion this will change over time, without policy changes is for the birds.

posted on 6/7/22

I know right. As an island nation too.

posted on 6/7/22

comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 6 minutes ago
No we're not, we're defined by our actions. Are you drunk?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe in your world - God forbid that you’re only viewed purely on all the wrongs and mistakes you’ve done in your life

For me, I like to see people with a more generous, open and forgiving attitude - for me people are much more that their actions - we are not determined purely on what we DO in life, it’s more about WHO WE ARE in life

There’s a distinct difference

And no, not drunk, perhaps just a little more generous on outlook that yourself?

posted on 6/7/22

or ‘defined’ as you put it *

posted on 7/7/22

Surely as humans, it’s about having a balance - I’m not defined purely by my mistakes or things I’ve done wrong, no more than I am for all the good I’ve done and got right in life

I’m a person that’s got both aspects in my life, which has made me the person I am today

That applies to everyone - I’m not saying the things we do don’t have an effect or consequences, but surely we are all so much more that what we do in life - our actions do not 100% define who we are

posted on 7/7/22

What the actual fvck are you waffling on about? No-one on here cares what you are, but they do the Prime Minister and he's got an awful lot more wrong than he has right whilst also, to my mind, being a quite terrible human being to boot.

That's why he is going to be ousted.

posted on 7/7/22

comment by Robbing Hoody - Legacy Fan (U6374)
posted 7 minutes ago
What the actual fvck are you waffling on about? No-one on here cares what you are, but they do the Prime Minister and he's got an awful lot more wrong than he has right whilst also, to my mind, being a quite terrible human being to boot.

That's why he is going to be ousted.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m just proving the point, that your initial quote of “we're defined by our actions”

Is actually a load of rubbish

Trust that help

You also seem quite angry

posted on 7/7/22

And I’m sure owd Boris’ days are numbered, but whatever happens, he is still more than his role as PM

posted on 7/7/22

A lying, cheating, unscrupulous narcissist?

posted on 7/7/22

To name but a few in your opinion

But I’m sure (as you do too deep down, but just cannot bring yourself to admit it), he has some positive qualities in his life also

comment by Silver (U6112)

posted on 7/7/22

comment by HEY, WE'RE BACK (U22866)
posted 3 hours, 16 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 27 seconds ago
History is also going to look back at Brexit and say:

1. It was comfortably the stupidest act of self-sabotage of the political era.

2. Even if we accept it had to go ahead, the Tories’ handling of it, particularly by Johnson’s cabal, was spectacularly incompetent and has resulted in a truly desperate outcome for the UK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s a matter of opinion

I believe history will say it’s the best the UK did in the past 50 years - to separate ourselves from the cesspit and corruption of the EU and to own our own independence - the best thing Britain has done, and history will do on to show and prove this

But then again, that’s just MY opinion
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We should probably let the Scots go based on that same assessment tbf.

posted on 7/7/22

comment by Silver (U6112)
posted 3 hours, 14 minutes ago
comment by HEY, WE'RE BACK (U22866)
posted 3 hours, 16 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 27 seconds ago
History is also going to look back at Brexit and say:

1. It was comfortably the stupidest act of self-sabotage of the political era.

2. Even if we accept it had to go ahead, the Tories’ handling of it, particularly by Johnson’s cabal, was spectacularly incompetent and has resulted in a truly desperate outcome for the UK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s a matter of opinion

I believe history will say it’s the best the UK did in the past 50 years - to separate ourselves from the cesspit and corruption of the EU and to own our own independence - the best thing Britain has done, and history will do on to show and prove this

But then again, that’s just MY opinion
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We should probably let the Scots go based on that same assessment tbf.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably should, but their motivations are no different from our own MP’s with Brexit.

posted on 7/7/22

comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 7 hours, 57 minutes ago
comment by HEY, WE'RE BACK (U22866)
posted 42 seconds ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 27 seconds ago
History is also going to look back at Brexit and say:

1. It was comfortably the stupidest act of self-sabotage of the political era.

2. Even if we accept it had to go ahead, the Tories’ handling of it, particularly by Johnson’s cabal, was spectacularly incompetent and has resulted in a truly desperate outcome for the UK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s a matter of opinion

I believe history will say it’s the best the UK did in the past 50 years - to separate ourselves from the cesspit and corruption of the EU and to own our own independence - the best thing Britain has done, and history will do on to show and prove this

But then again, that’s just MY opinion
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is an opinion; but there are also measurable outcomes, both quantitative (economic growth, balance of trade, inward investment, productivity, debt, quality of life indices, healthcare outcomes, happiness indices, etc.) and qualitative (strategic geopolitical power, diplomatic reach and influence, academic and cultural influence, environmental and public health protections, safety standards, etc.).

None of those are going to shine a positive light on Brexit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

yeah but it's a messy divorce. We were never going to leave and everything be great from day 1. Since then covid which has compounded everything.

So right now it is impossible to say how history will look back on this decision. Were still fighting over access for the kids and making bitchy comments about our former partner. In time things will improve.

posted on 7/7/22

comment by red_evils (U19878)
posted 14 hours, 57 minutes ago
Nadhim Zahawi might be the shortest serving Chancellor in history?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
and you'd have to wonder why he's even picked up that poison challice....he's going to look a right twatt when blustering billy resigns today

posted on 7/7/22

comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 52 minutes ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 7 hours, 57 minutes ago
comment by HEY, WE'RE BACK (U22866)
posted 42 seconds ago
comment by And... Rosso... Though its... Yeah and... That... (U17054)
posted 27 seconds ago
History is also going to look back at Brexit and say:

1. It was comfortably the stupidest act of self-sabotage of the political era.

2. Even if we accept it had to go ahead, the Tories’ handling of it, particularly by Johnson’s cabal, was spectacularly incompetent and has resulted in a truly desperate outcome for the UK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s a matter of opinion

I believe history will say it’s the best the UK did in the past 50 years - to separate ourselves from the cesspit and corruption of the EU and to own our own independence - the best thing Britain has done, and history will do on to show and prove this

But then again, that’s just MY opinion
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is an opinion; but there are also measurable outcomes, both quantitative (economic growth, balance of trade, inward investment, productivity, debt, quality of life indices, healthcare outcomes, happiness indices, etc.) and qualitative (strategic geopolitical power, diplomatic reach and influence, academic and cultural influence, environmental and public health protections, safety standards, etc.).

None of those are going to shine a positive light on Brexit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

yeah but it's a messy divorce. We were never going to leave and everything be great from day 1. Since then covid which has compounded everything.

So right now it is impossible to say how history will look back on this decision. Were still fighting over access for the kids and making bitchy comments about our former partner. In time things will improve.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
They may improve, of course. But there are fundamental and unavoidable negatives which come with Brexit - particularly the form of it the Tories have chosen - which simply cannot be fully ameliorated by another other means.

There is literally no way to get around the fact that leaving the SM and CU has baked in the loss of whole percentage points from GDP. Those points are gone, and they can’t be regained elsewhere by any means.

There is literally no way to get around the fact that percentage points have been shaved off exports and off balance of trade. Australians and New Zealanders don’t want to, and couldn’t if they spent every cent in their economies, offer a new home to the UK’s lost exports to the EU.

There’s no point in pretending that hundreds of billions of pounds worth of asset and securities management hasn’t already moved out of London, never to return whilst Britain chooses to sit economically isolated from the continent.

There *are* things that could be being done by govt to help the UK economy and British businesses, from micro to multinational, during this exceptionally difficult period. Like change their ridiculous and self-harming visa rules to allow farmers to collect their harvests, hotels to run to capacity, and care homes to employ enough staff to at least safely, if not even comfortably, look after their residents.

But they’ve decided that already having chosen to compete in the race in concrete boots, they’re also going to run it facing backwards.

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