What’s scandalous about it? Have they made allegations that the Ukrainians have denied?
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 4 minutes ago
What’s scandalous about it? Have they made allegations that the Ukrainians have denied?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, the Ukrainian Amnesty have slammed it.
Here’s Amnesty’s headline statement on the report:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/
AI isn’t in the business of taking or supporting positions on geopolitical matters, btw. Their job is to champion human rights, campaign to protect and defend human rights, condemn human rights abuses, and campaign to bring offenders to justice. They do so by conducting careful, detailed research and performing incredibly determined campaigning - without bias or discrimination - and they do a good facking job.
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 20 seconds ago
Here’s Amnesty’s headline statement on the report:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/
AI isn’t in the business of taking or supporting positions on geopolitical matters, btw. Their job is to champion human rights, campaign to protect and defend human rights, condemn human rights abuses, and campaign to bring offenders to justice. They do so by conducting careful, detailed research and performing incredibly determined campaigning - without bias or discrimination - and they do a good facking job.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bloody hell Rossell Brand, how naive can you be?
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 49 seconds ago
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 20 seconds ago
Here’s Amnesty’s headline statement on the report:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/
AI isn’t in the business of taking or supporting positions on geopolitical matters, btw. Their job is to champion human rights, campaign to protect and defend human rights, condemn human rights abuses, and campaign to bring offenders to justice. They do so by conducting careful, detailed research and performing incredibly determined campaigning - without bias or discrimination - and they do a good facking job.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bloody hell Rossell Brand, how naive can you be?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please elaborate.
Have you read the report, btw Robb? Can you tell me specifically what you object to?
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 58 seconds ago
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 49 seconds ago
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 20 seconds ago
Here’s Amnesty’s headline statement on the report:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/
AI isn’t in the business of taking or supporting positions on geopolitical matters, btw. Their job is to champion human rights, campaign to protect and defend human rights, condemn human rights abuses, and campaign to bring offenders to justice. They do so by conducting careful, detailed research and performing incredibly determined campaigning - without bias or discrimination - and they do a good facking job.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bloody hell Rossell Brand, how naive can you be?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please elaborate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly read the response from Amnesty Ukraine (which is in the link)
Secondly, Amnesty releasing this helps legitimatise Russia’s ongoing genocide. At best they’ve not done their homework on this and at worst they’re taking a John Pilger/Aaron Matè style viewpoint and wilfully ignoring that Ukraine are in a battle for their survival.
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 1 minute ago
Have you read the report, btw Robb? Can you tell me specifically what you object to?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1555167248679157763.html
This actually says it better than I can
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 32 seconds ago
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 58 seconds ago
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 49 seconds ago
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 20 seconds ago
Here’s Amnesty’s headline statement on the report:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/
AI isn’t in the business of taking or supporting positions on geopolitical matters, btw. Their job is to champion human rights, campaign to protect and defend human rights, condemn human rights abuses, and campaign to bring offenders to justice. They do so by conducting careful, detailed research and performing incredibly determined campaigning - without bias or discrimination - and they do a good facking job.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bloody hell Rossell Brand, how naive can you be?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please elaborate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly read the response from Amnesty Ukraine (which is in the link)
Secondly, Amnesty releasing this helps legitimatise Russia’s ongoing genocide. At best they’ve not done their homework on this and at worst they’re taking a John Pilger/Aaron Matè style viewpoint and wilfully ignoring that Ukraine are in a battle for their survival.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That second paragraph I don’t accept, at all. Not one iota. Even if it was relevant, which it isn’t. (Again, it is NOT and CANNOT BE AI’s job to take or defend geopolitical positions. It would completely undermine the work they do.)
The headline statement literally calls out Russian war crimes. The evidence AÍ has presented was gathered whilst AÍ was literally investigating and gathering evidence of Russian war crimes:
“…Russian strikes in the Kharkiv, Donbas and Mykolaiv regions. The organization inspected strike sites; interviewed survivors, witnesses and relatives of victims of attacks; and carried out remote-sensing and weapons analysis.”
The same headline statement repeatedly refers to Russia’s forces using (examples) “widely banned and inherently indiscriminate cluster munitions” and “other explosive weapons with wide area effects”.
AI has spent decades and decades denouncing Russian human rights abuses, internal and external, and has campaigned ceaselessly against Russian aggression in Ukraine (and elsewhere) and to defend those within Russia’s borders who have protested against Putin’s regime and its actions.
It has published in the last couple of months alone articles with the following titles:
‘Ukraine: Russian soldiers filmed viciously attacking Ukrainian POW must face justice’
‘Russia: Charging 92 members of Ukraine’s military with ‘crimes against humanity’ brazenly undermines fair trial rights’
‘Russia: Opposition activist sentenced to four years in prison under repressive ‘undesirable organization’ law’
‘Russia: Authorities must drop case against Ilya Yashin – latest victim of clampdown on war critics’
‘Russia: Municipal councillor sentenced to seven years in jail for opposing the Ukraine war’
‘Ukraine: Civilians killed by ‘reckless’ Russian attacks on Serhiivka apartment block and beach resort’
‘UKRAINE: HUNDREDS KILLED IN RELENTLESS RUSSIAN SHELLING OF KHARKIV’
‘Ukraine/Russia: “Death sentences” against three foreign members of Ukrainian forces by separatists’ “courts” a blatant violation of international law’
Here’s a shiiiitload more:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/?qlocation=1995
Here’s AI’s current annual report (pre-invasion) on Russia:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/russian-federation/report-russian-federation/
Read that and tell me AI has been “infiltrated by the Russians” ffs.
Here’s the concluding section of the headline statement on the report in question (my emphasis):
‘Indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces
Many of the Russian strikes that Amnesty International documented in recent months were carried out with inherently indiscriminate weapons, including internationally banned cluster munitions, or with other explosive weapons with wide area effects. Others used guided weapons with varying levels of accuracy; in some cases, the weapons were precise enough to target specific objects.
***The Ukrainian military’s practice of locating military objectives within populated areas does not in any way justify indiscriminate Russian attacks.***
All parties to a conflict must at all times distinguish between military objectives and civilian objects and take all feasible precautions, including in choice of weapons, to minimize civilian harm. Indiscriminate attacks which kill or injure civilians or damage civilian objects are war crimes.
“The Ukrainian government should immediately ensure that it locates its forces away from populated areas, or should evacuate civilians from areas where the military is operating. Militaries should never use hospitals to engage in warfare, and should only use schools or civilian homes as a last resort when there are no viable alternatives,” said Agnès Callamard.’
DOES NOT IN ANY WAY JUSTIFY INDISCRIMINATE RUSSIAN ATTACKS.
It’s there in black and white in the summary of the headline statement.
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 31 seconds ago
Here’s AI’s current annual report (pre-invasion) on Russia:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/russian-federation/report-russian-federation/
Read that and tell me AI has been “infiltrated by the Russians” ffs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet they publish this - the ultimate exercise in victim blaming. They facked up and it helps (whether they mean it or not) muddy the water at a time when hearts and minds need to believe the fight is a fight worth fighting. Have Amnesty released something like this blaming the Palestinians for doing similar?
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 1 minute ago
Here’s the concluding section of the headline statement on the report in question (my emphasis):
‘Indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces
Many of the Russian strikes that Amnesty International documented in recent months were carried out with inherently indiscriminate weapons, including internationally banned cluster munitions, or with other explosive weapons with wide area effects. Others used guided weapons with varying levels of accuracy; in some cases, the weapons were precise enough to target specific objects.
***The Ukrainian military’s practice of locating military objectives within populated areas does not in any way justify indiscriminate Russian attacks.***
All parties to a conflict must at all times distinguish between military objectives and civilian objects and take all feasible precautions, including in choice of weapons, to minimize civilian harm. Indiscriminate attacks which kill or injure civilians or damage civilian objects are war crimes.
“The Ukrainian government should immediately ensure that it locates its forces away from populated areas, or should evacuate civilians from areas where the military is operating. Militaries should never use hospitals to engage in warfare, and should only use schools or civilian homes as a last resort when there are no viable alternatives,” said Agnès Callamard.’
DOES NOT IN ANY WAY JUSTIFY INDISCRIMINATE RUSSIAN ATTACKS.
It’s there in black and white in the summary of the headline statement.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
‘The Ukrainian government should immediately ensure that it locates its forces away from populated areas’
How can you not see how wrong Amnesty are on this?
https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1555280431561560064?s=21&t=FVDKP5p2YiaQcJxur9q1sA
Some reading for Rosso explaining how incorrect the report from Amnesty is.
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 56 seconds ago
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 31 seconds ago
Here’s AI’s current annual report (pre-invasion) on Russia:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/russian-federation/report-russian-federation/
Read that and tell me AI has been “infiltrated by the Russians” ffs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet they publish this - the ultimate exercise in victim blaming. They facked up and it helps (whether they mean it or not) muddy the water at a time when hearts and minds need to believe the fight is a fight worth fighting. Have Amnesty released something like this blaming the Palestinians for doing similar?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Complete and utter nonsense, Robb; and personally, having worked closely with Amnesty for two and a half decades, I find that really, really facking offensive.
(You’re free to say whatever you want, of course; just expressing my feelings here, and you’ve royally facked me off this morning )
This is straight up one of the greatest organisations on the surface of the planet, bar none. Unbiased as any. Fair as any. Incorruptible as any. Constitutionally independent of any political ideology, economic interest or religion. I have met some of the greatest human being you can imagine working for and with AÍ. Immense people who have dedicated their lives (working and pretty much every minute of their free time) to truth-finding and campaigning for justice.
They won’t deal in propaganda. It’s absolutely anathema to them.
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 1 minute ago
Here’s the concluding section of the headline statement on the report in question (my emphasis):
‘Indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces
Many of the Russian strikes that Amnesty International documented in recent months were carried out with inherently indiscriminate weapons, including internationally banned cluster munitions, or with other explosive weapons with wide area effects. Others used guided weapons with varying levels of accuracy; in some cases, the weapons were precise enough to target specific objects.
***The Ukrainian military’s practice of locating military objectives within populated areas does not in any way justify indiscriminate Russian attacks.***
All parties to a conflict must at all times distinguish between military objectives and civilian objects and take all feasible precautions, including in choice of weapons, to minimize civilian harm. Indiscriminate attacks which kill or injure civilians or damage civilian objects are war crimes.
“The Ukrainian government should immediately ensure that it locates its forces away from populated areas, or should evacuate civilians from areas where the military is operating. Militaries should never use hospitals to engage in warfare, and should only use schools or civilian homes as a last resort when there are no viable alternatives,” said Agnès Callamard.’
DOES NOT IN ANY WAY JUSTIFY INDISCRIMINATE RUSSIAN ATTACKS.
It’s there in black and white in the summary of the headline statement.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
‘The Ukrainian government should immediately ensure that it locates its forces away from populated areas’
How can you not see how wrong Amnesty are on this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a facking fact, Robb. It’s just a plain fact. It’s part of international humanitarian law.
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 1 minute ago
Here’s the concluding section of the headline statement on the report in question (my emphasis):
‘Indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces
Many of the Russian strikes that Amnesty International documented in recent months were carried out with inherently indiscriminate weapons, including internationally banned cluster munitions, or with other explosive weapons with wide area effects. Others used guided weapons with varying levels of accuracy; in some cases, the weapons were precise enough to target specific objects.
***The Ukrainian military’s practice of locating military objectives within populated areas does not in any way justify indiscriminate Russian attacks.***
All parties to a conflict must at all times distinguish between military objectives and civilian objects and take all feasible precautions, including in choice of weapons, to minimize civilian harm. Indiscriminate attacks which kill or injure civilians or damage civilian objects are war crimes.
“The Ukrainian government should immediately ensure that it locates its forces away from populated areas, or should evacuate civilians from areas where the military is operating. Militaries should never use hospitals to engage in warfare, and should only use schools or civilian homes as a last resort when there are no viable alternatives,” said Agnès Callamard.’
DOES NOT IN ANY WAY JUSTIFY INDISCRIMINATE RUSSIAN ATTACKS.
It’s there in black and white in the summary of the headline statement.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
‘The Ukrainian government should immediately ensure that it locates its forces away from populated areas’
How can you not see how wrong Amnesty are on this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a facking fact, Robb. It’s just a plain fact. It’s part of international humanitarian law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The concept of urban defence is beyond you then? If the Ukraine military deserts the cities then the Russians take them easily. This report has been completely slammed by a lot of people, not least Amnesty Ukraine who are apoplectic.
Already Amnesty International are being called ‘useful idiots’. Guess it’s better than my claim of being infiltrated by Russia.
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 2 minutes ago
https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1555280431561560064?s=21&t=FVDKP5p2YiaQcJxur9q1sA
Some reading for Rosso explaining how incorrect the report from Amnesty is.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There’s absolutely nothing in there that contests Amnesty’s findings. Literally nothing. There isn’t even a claim against any of the findings.
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 3 minutes ago
Already Amnesty International are being called ‘useful idiots’. Guess it’s better than my claim of being infiltrated by Russia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Investigate - carefully and thoroughly - and report findings.
Where there are failures to protect human rights or human rights abuses, call them out.
That’s it. That’s what they do. That’s why they exist. They cannot and will not take sides.
That’s a large part of the reason why they’ve achieved so facking much over the decades for individuals and nations of people alike. Arguably as much in the defence of and strengthening of human rights as any single organisation on the planet since they came into existence.
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 9 seconds ago
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 3 minutes ago
Already Amnesty International are being called ‘useful idiots’. Guess it’s better than my claim of being infiltrated by Russia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Investigate - carefully and thoroughly - and report findings.
Where there are failures to protect human rights or human rights abuses, call them out.
That’s it. That’s what they do. That’s why they exist. They cannot and will not take sides.
That’s a large part of the reason why they’ve achieved so facking much over the decades for individuals and nations of people alike. Arguably as much in the defence of and strengthening of human rights as any single organisation on the planet since they came into existence.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, you’re very naive. You seem to think they’re above reproach. I look forward to the investigation demanded by Amnesty Ukraine and for all the findings to be made public and the paper trail made available to them.
What are the Ukrainians supposed to do? 🙄
Leave the urban areas and walk out onto fields and open areas to be bombed into oblivion? I have my suspicions you’re of the opinion that Ukraine should just surrender which of course is your opinion to have but at least say that’s why you’re not enraged at this stupid Russian apologist piece.
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 31 seconds ago
Here’s AI’s current annual report (pre-invasion) on Russia:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/russian-federation/report-russian-federation/
Read that and tell me AI has been “infiltrated by the Russians” ffs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet they publish this - the ultimate exercise in victim blaming. They facked up and it helps (whether they mean it or not) muddy the water at a time when hearts and minds need to believe the fight is a fight worth fighting. Have Amnesty released something like this blaming the Palestinians for doing similar?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What you’re asking for then, to be clear, is that through this conflict, AI carefully selects which of their findings they publish in order to publicise only failures to protect human rights or human rights abuses committed by Russia?
You want them to become part of a propaganda machine, rather than an unbiased and independent investigator?
There’s enough of that going on on both sides. Personally, I find it quite refreshing that there are still a few organisations out there who actively exclude themselves from the politics.
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 39 seconds ago
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 31 seconds ago
Here’s AI’s current annual report (pre-invasion) on Russia:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/russian-federation/report-russian-federation/
Read that and tell me AI has been “infiltrated by the Russians” ffs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet they publish this - the ultimate exercise in victim blaming. They facked up and it helps (whether they mean it or not) muddy the water at a time when hearts and minds need to believe the fight is a fight worth fighting. Have Amnesty released something like this blaming the Palestinians for doing similar?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What you’re asking for then, to be clear, is that through this conflict, AI carefully selects which of their findings they publish in order to publicise only failures to protect human rights or human rights abuses committed by Russia?
You want them to become part of a propaganda machine, rather than an unbiased and independent investigator?
There’s enough of that going on on both sides. Personally, I find it quite refreshing that there are still a few organisations out there who actively exclude themselves from the politics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I want them to at least speak to Amnesty Ukraine before they put out a hit piece like this
They won’t deal in propaganda. It’s absolutely anathema to them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Every institution consists of individuals, and are therefore susceptible to human error, folly and corruptibility. We certainly can't speak of a wholesale pro-Russian viewpoint on the part of Amnesty as an organisation. But this isn't the first time that I've been very disappointed by stances they have taken in respect of Putin's Russia, which leads me to suspect that there are elements within Amnesty who are either susceptible to or sympathetic to Russian state narratives. I only speculate, but I think it's quite likely that this may be associated with relatively well-meaning blind spots and/or confusing neutral objectivity with 'both-sides-ing' rather than something more sinister.
Previously they decided to de-list Aleksei Navalny as a political prisoner, following a concerted campaign from Russian bots to smear him as a supporter of a far-right agenda (based on certain anti-immigrant remarks he made earlier in his career). That smacked of a decision based on the politics of trying to avoid heat coming from the left-of-centre world that traditionally supports Amnesty more strongly, rather than the result of a scrupulous process to describe human rights abuses regardless of who the victims are.
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Amnesty International
Page 1 of 3
posted on 5/8/22
What’s scandalous about it? Have they made allegations that the Ukrainians have denied?
posted on 5/8/22
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 4 minutes ago
What’s scandalous about it? Have they made allegations that the Ukrainians have denied?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, the Ukrainian Amnesty have slammed it.
posted on 5/8/22
Here’s Amnesty’s headline statement on the report:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/
AI isn’t in the business of taking or supporting positions on geopolitical matters, btw. Their job is to champion human rights, campaign to protect and defend human rights, condemn human rights abuses, and campaign to bring offenders to justice. They do so by conducting careful, detailed research and performing incredibly determined campaigning - without bias or discrimination - and they do a good facking job.
posted on 5/8/22
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 20 seconds ago
Here’s Amnesty’s headline statement on the report:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/
AI isn’t in the business of taking or supporting positions on geopolitical matters, btw. Their job is to champion human rights, campaign to protect and defend human rights, condemn human rights abuses, and campaign to bring offenders to justice. They do so by conducting careful, detailed research and performing incredibly determined campaigning - without bias or discrimination - and they do a good facking job.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bloody hell Rossell Brand, how naive can you be?
posted on 5/8/22
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 49 seconds ago
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 20 seconds ago
Here’s Amnesty’s headline statement on the report:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/
AI isn’t in the business of taking or supporting positions on geopolitical matters, btw. Their job is to champion human rights, campaign to protect and defend human rights, condemn human rights abuses, and campaign to bring offenders to justice. They do so by conducting careful, detailed research and performing incredibly determined campaigning - without bias or discrimination - and they do a good facking job.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bloody hell Rossell Brand, how naive can you be?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please elaborate.
posted on 5/8/22
Have you read the report, btw Robb? Can you tell me specifically what you object to?
posted on 5/8/22
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 58 seconds ago
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 49 seconds ago
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 20 seconds ago
Here’s Amnesty’s headline statement on the report:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/
AI isn’t in the business of taking or supporting positions on geopolitical matters, btw. Their job is to champion human rights, campaign to protect and defend human rights, condemn human rights abuses, and campaign to bring offenders to justice. They do so by conducting careful, detailed research and performing incredibly determined campaigning - without bias or discrimination - and they do a good facking job.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bloody hell Rossell Brand, how naive can you be?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please elaborate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly read the response from Amnesty Ukraine (which is in the link)
Secondly, Amnesty releasing this helps legitimatise Russia’s ongoing genocide. At best they’ve not done their homework on this and at worst they’re taking a John Pilger/Aaron Matè style viewpoint and wilfully ignoring that Ukraine are in a battle for their survival.
posted on 5/8/22
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 1 minute ago
Have you read the report, btw Robb? Can you tell me specifically what you object to?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1555167248679157763.html
This actually says it better than I can
posted on 5/8/22
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 32 seconds ago
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 58 seconds ago
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 49 seconds ago
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 20 seconds ago
Here’s Amnesty’s headline statement on the report:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/
AI isn’t in the business of taking or supporting positions on geopolitical matters, btw. Their job is to champion human rights, campaign to protect and defend human rights, condemn human rights abuses, and campaign to bring offenders to justice. They do so by conducting careful, detailed research and performing incredibly determined campaigning - without bias or discrimination - and they do a good facking job.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bloody hell Rossell Brand, how naive can you be?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please elaborate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly read the response from Amnesty Ukraine (which is in the link)
Secondly, Amnesty releasing this helps legitimatise Russia’s ongoing genocide. At best they’ve not done their homework on this and at worst they’re taking a John Pilger/Aaron Matè style viewpoint and wilfully ignoring that Ukraine are in a battle for their survival.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That second paragraph I don’t accept, at all. Not one iota. Even if it was relevant, which it isn’t. (Again, it is NOT and CANNOT BE AI’s job to take or defend geopolitical positions. It would completely undermine the work they do.)
The headline statement literally calls out Russian war crimes. The evidence AÍ has presented was gathered whilst AÍ was literally investigating and gathering evidence of Russian war crimes:
“…Russian strikes in the Kharkiv, Donbas and Mykolaiv regions. The organization inspected strike sites; interviewed survivors, witnesses and relatives of victims of attacks; and carried out remote-sensing and weapons analysis.”
The same headline statement repeatedly refers to Russia’s forces using (examples) “widely banned and inherently indiscriminate cluster munitions” and “other explosive weapons with wide area effects”.
AI has spent decades and decades denouncing Russian human rights abuses, internal and external, and has campaigned ceaselessly against Russian aggression in Ukraine (and elsewhere) and to defend those within Russia’s borders who have protested against Putin’s regime and its actions.
It has published in the last couple of months alone articles with the following titles:
‘Ukraine: Russian soldiers filmed viciously attacking Ukrainian POW must face justice’
‘Russia: Charging 92 members of Ukraine’s military with ‘crimes against humanity’ brazenly undermines fair trial rights’
‘Russia: Opposition activist sentenced to four years in prison under repressive ‘undesirable organization’ law’
‘Russia: Authorities must drop case against Ilya Yashin – latest victim of clampdown on war critics’
‘Russia: Municipal councillor sentenced to seven years in jail for opposing the Ukraine war’
‘Ukraine: Civilians killed by ‘reckless’ Russian attacks on Serhiivka apartment block and beach resort’
‘UKRAINE: HUNDREDS KILLED IN RELENTLESS RUSSIAN SHELLING OF KHARKIV’
‘Ukraine/Russia: “Death sentences” against three foreign members of Ukrainian forces by separatists’ “courts” a blatant violation of international law’
Here’s a shiiiitload more:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/?qlocation=1995
posted on 5/8/22
Here’s AI’s current annual report (pre-invasion) on Russia:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/russian-federation/report-russian-federation/
Read that and tell me AI has been “infiltrated by the Russians” ffs.
posted on 5/8/22
Here’s the concluding section of the headline statement on the report in question (my emphasis):
‘Indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces
Many of the Russian strikes that Amnesty International documented in recent months were carried out with inherently indiscriminate weapons, including internationally banned cluster munitions, or with other explosive weapons with wide area effects. Others used guided weapons with varying levels of accuracy; in some cases, the weapons were precise enough to target specific objects.
***The Ukrainian military’s practice of locating military objectives within populated areas does not in any way justify indiscriminate Russian attacks.***
All parties to a conflict must at all times distinguish between military objectives and civilian objects and take all feasible precautions, including in choice of weapons, to minimize civilian harm. Indiscriminate attacks which kill or injure civilians or damage civilian objects are war crimes.
“The Ukrainian government should immediately ensure that it locates its forces away from populated areas, or should evacuate civilians from areas where the military is operating. Militaries should never use hospitals to engage in warfare, and should only use schools or civilian homes as a last resort when there are no viable alternatives,” said Agnès Callamard.’
DOES NOT IN ANY WAY JUSTIFY INDISCRIMINATE RUSSIAN ATTACKS.
It’s there in black and white in the summary of the headline statement.
posted on 5/8/22
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 31 seconds ago
Here’s AI’s current annual report (pre-invasion) on Russia:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/russian-federation/report-russian-federation/
Read that and tell me AI has been “infiltrated by the Russians” ffs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet they publish this - the ultimate exercise in victim blaming. They facked up and it helps (whether they mean it or not) muddy the water at a time when hearts and minds need to believe the fight is a fight worth fighting. Have Amnesty released something like this blaming the Palestinians for doing similar?
posted on 5/8/22
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 1 minute ago
Here’s the concluding section of the headline statement on the report in question (my emphasis):
‘Indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces
Many of the Russian strikes that Amnesty International documented in recent months were carried out with inherently indiscriminate weapons, including internationally banned cluster munitions, or with other explosive weapons with wide area effects. Others used guided weapons with varying levels of accuracy; in some cases, the weapons were precise enough to target specific objects.
***The Ukrainian military’s practice of locating military objectives within populated areas does not in any way justify indiscriminate Russian attacks.***
All parties to a conflict must at all times distinguish between military objectives and civilian objects and take all feasible precautions, including in choice of weapons, to minimize civilian harm. Indiscriminate attacks which kill or injure civilians or damage civilian objects are war crimes.
“The Ukrainian government should immediately ensure that it locates its forces away from populated areas, or should evacuate civilians from areas where the military is operating. Militaries should never use hospitals to engage in warfare, and should only use schools or civilian homes as a last resort when there are no viable alternatives,” said Agnès Callamard.’
DOES NOT IN ANY WAY JUSTIFY INDISCRIMINATE RUSSIAN ATTACKS.
It’s there in black and white in the summary of the headline statement.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
‘The Ukrainian government should immediately ensure that it locates its forces away from populated areas’
How can you not see how wrong Amnesty are on this?
posted on 5/8/22
https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1555280431561560064?s=21&t=FVDKP5p2YiaQcJxur9q1sA
Some reading for Rosso explaining how incorrect the report from Amnesty is.
posted on 5/8/22
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 56 seconds ago
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 31 seconds ago
Here’s AI’s current annual report (pre-invasion) on Russia:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/russian-federation/report-russian-federation/
Read that and tell me AI has been “infiltrated by the Russians” ffs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet they publish this - the ultimate exercise in victim blaming. They facked up and it helps (whether they mean it or not) muddy the water at a time when hearts and minds need to believe the fight is a fight worth fighting. Have Amnesty released something like this blaming the Palestinians for doing similar?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Complete and utter nonsense, Robb; and personally, having worked closely with Amnesty for two and a half decades, I find that really, really facking offensive.
(You’re free to say whatever you want, of course; just expressing my feelings here, and you’ve royally facked me off this morning )
This is straight up one of the greatest organisations on the surface of the planet, bar none. Unbiased as any. Fair as any. Incorruptible as any. Constitutionally independent of any political ideology, economic interest or religion. I have met some of the greatest human being you can imagine working for and with AÍ. Immense people who have dedicated their lives (working and pretty much every minute of their free time) to truth-finding and campaigning for justice.
They won’t deal in propaganda. It’s absolutely anathema to them.
posted on 5/8/22
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 1 minute ago
Here’s the concluding section of the headline statement on the report in question (my emphasis):
‘Indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces
Many of the Russian strikes that Amnesty International documented in recent months were carried out with inherently indiscriminate weapons, including internationally banned cluster munitions, or with other explosive weapons with wide area effects. Others used guided weapons with varying levels of accuracy; in some cases, the weapons were precise enough to target specific objects.
***The Ukrainian military’s practice of locating military objectives within populated areas does not in any way justify indiscriminate Russian attacks.***
All parties to a conflict must at all times distinguish between military objectives and civilian objects and take all feasible precautions, including in choice of weapons, to minimize civilian harm. Indiscriminate attacks which kill or injure civilians or damage civilian objects are war crimes.
“The Ukrainian government should immediately ensure that it locates its forces away from populated areas, or should evacuate civilians from areas where the military is operating. Militaries should never use hospitals to engage in warfare, and should only use schools or civilian homes as a last resort when there are no viable alternatives,” said Agnès Callamard.’
DOES NOT IN ANY WAY JUSTIFY INDISCRIMINATE RUSSIAN ATTACKS.
It’s there in black and white in the summary of the headline statement.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
‘The Ukrainian government should immediately ensure that it locates its forces away from populated areas’
How can you not see how wrong Amnesty are on this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a facking fact, Robb. It’s just a plain fact. It’s part of international humanitarian law.
posted on 5/8/22
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 1 minute ago
Here’s the concluding section of the headline statement on the report in question (my emphasis):
‘Indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces
Many of the Russian strikes that Amnesty International documented in recent months were carried out with inherently indiscriminate weapons, including internationally banned cluster munitions, or with other explosive weapons with wide area effects. Others used guided weapons with varying levels of accuracy; in some cases, the weapons were precise enough to target specific objects.
***The Ukrainian military’s practice of locating military objectives within populated areas does not in any way justify indiscriminate Russian attacks.***
All parties to a conflict must at all times distinguish between military objectives and civilian objects and take all feasible precautions, including in choice of weapons, to minimize civilian harm. Indiscriminate attacks which kill or injure civilians or damage civilian objects are war crimes.
“The Ukrainian government should immediately ensure that it locates its forces away from populated areas, or should evacuate civilians from areas where the military is operating. Militaries should never use hospitals to engage in warfare, and should only use schools or civilian homes as a last resort when there are no viable alternatives,” said Agnès Callamard.’
DOES NOT IN ANY WAY JUSTIFY INDISCRIMINATE RUSSIAN ATTACKS.
It’s there in black and white in the summary of the headline statement.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
‘The Ukrainian government should immediately ensure that it locates its forces away from populated areas’
How can you not see how wrong Amnesty are on this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s a facking fact, Robb. It’s just a plain fact. It’s part of international humanitarian law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The concept of urban defence is beyond you then? If the Ukraine military deserts the cities then the Russians take them easily. This report has been completely slammed by a lot of people, not least Amnesty Ukraine who are apoplectic.
posted on 5/8/22
Already Amnesty International are being called ‘useful idiots’. Guess it’s better than my claim of being infiltrated by Russia.
posted on 5/8/22
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 2 minutes ago
https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1555280431561560064?s=21&t=FVDKP5p2YiaQcJxur9q1sA
Some reading for Rosso explaining how incorrect the report from Amnesty is.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There’s absolutely nothing in there that contests Amnesty’s findings. Literally nothing. There isn’t even a claim against any of the findings.
posted on 5/8/22
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 3 minutes ago
Already Amnesty International are being called ‘useful idiots’. Guess it’s better than my claim of being infiltrated by Russia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Investigate - carefully and thoroughly - and report findings.
Where there are failures to protect human rights or human rights abuses, call them out.
That’s it. That’s what they do. That’s why they exist. They cannot and will not take sides.
That’s a large part of the reason why they’ve achieved so facking much over the decades for individuals and nations of people alike. Arguably as much in the defence of and strengthening of human rights as any single organisation on the planet since they came into existence.
posted on 5/8/22
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 9 seconds ago
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 3 minutes ago
Already Amnesty International are being called ‘useful idiots’. Guess it’s better than my claim of being infiltrated by Russia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Investigate - carefully and thoroughly - and report findings.
Where there are failures to protect human rights or human rights abuses, call them out.
That’s it. That’s what they do. That’s why they exist. They cannot and will not take sides.
That’s a large part of the reason why they’ve achieved so facking much over the decades for individuals and nations of people alike. Arguably as much in the defence of and strengthening of human rights as any single organisation on the planet since they came into existence.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, you’re very naive. You seem to think they’re above reproach. I look forward to the investigation demanded by Amnesty Ukraine and for all the findings to be made public and the paper trail made available to them.
posted on 5/8/22
What are the Ukrainians supposed to do? 🙄
Leave the urban areas and walk out onto fields and open areas to be bombed into oblivion? I have my suspicions you’re of the opinion that Ukraine should just surrender which of course is your opinion to have but at least say that’s why you’re not enraged at this stupid Russian apologist piece.
posted on 5/8/22
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 31 seconds ago
Here’s AI’s current annual report (pre-invasion) on Russia:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/russian-federation/report-russian-federation/
Read that and tell me AI has been “infiltrated by the Russians” ffs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet they publish this - the ultimate exercise in victim blaming. They facked up and it helps (whether they mean it or not) muddy the water at a time when hearts and minds need to believe the fight is a fight worth fighting. Have Amnesty released something like this blaming the Palestinians for doing similar?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What you’re asking for then, to be clear, is that through this conflict, AI carefully selects which of their findings they publish in order to publicise only failures to protect human rights or human rights abuses committed by Russia?
You want them to become part of a propaganda machine, rather than an unbiased and independent investigator?
There’s enough of that going on on both sides. Personally, I find it quite refreshing that there are still a few organisations out there who actively exclude themselves from the politics.
posted on 5/8/22
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 39 seconds ago
comment by Slippin’ Robb (U22716)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 31 seconds ago
Here’s AI’s current annual report (pre-invasion) on Russia:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/russian-federation/report-russian-federation/
Read that and tell me AI has been “infiltrated by the Russians” ffs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And yet they publish this - the ultimate exercise in victim blaming. They facked up and it helps (whether they mean it or not) muddy the water at a time when hearts and minds need to believe the fight is a fight worth fighting. Have Amnesty released something like this blaming the Palestinians for doing similar?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What you’re asking for then, to be clear, is that through this conflict, AI carefully selects which of their findings they publish in order to publicise only failures to protect human rights or human rights abuses committed by Russia?
You want them to become part of a propaganda machine, rather than an unbiased and independent investigator?
There’s enough of that going on on both sides. Personally, I find it quite refreshing that there are still a few organisations out there who actively exclude themselves from the politics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I want them to at least speak to Amnesty Ukraine before they put out a hit piece like this
posted on 5/8/22
They won’t deal in propaganda. It’s absolutely anathema to them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Every institution consists of individuals, and are therefore susceptible to human error, folly and corruptibility. We certainly can't speak of a wholesale pro-Russian viewpoint on the part of Amnesty as an organisation. But this isn't the first time that I've been very disappointed by stances they have taken in respect of Putin's Russia, which leads me to suspect that there are elements within Amnesty who are either susceptible to or sympathetic to Russian state narratives. I only speculate, but I think it's quite likely that this may be associated with relatively well-meaning blind spots and/or confusing neutral objectivity with 'both-sides-ing' rather than something more sinister.
Previously they decided to de-list Aleksei Navalny as a political prisoner, following a concerted campaign from Russian bots to smear him as a supporter of a far-right agenda (based on certain anti-immigrant remarks he made earlier in his career). That smacked of a decision based on the politics of trying to avoid heat coming from the left-of-centre world that traditionally supports Amnesty more strongly, rather than the result of a scrupulous process to describe human rights abuses regardless of who the victims are.
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