Around me, and in my extended family there are many more vegetarians among the younger set. I don't think it's anything to do with environmental issues though, it's because they don't like meat.
Many didn't when I was young, but were forced/encouraged to eat it as it was rationed, and thought good for growing children..
Conversely, I pass two McDonald's, one KFC that always seem to be busy. One Holy Moly that isn't. And umpteen kebab shops that are mixed.
One grand-daughter has a pet rabbit. I said to the parents 'always good to have a réservé of food'.
They were horrified, but they don't get English humour.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
There are all sorts of reasons for that and generally we see people become more right wing as they age.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I listened to a very interesting discussion on the radio about this - an interview with an academic who had studied the topic. As always with academics, the picture turned out to be more complex and caveated than popular narratives, but she did conclude that when a generation grows up with a set of values that distinguish it from the previous generation, it tends to stick with those throughout its voting life. They tend to get more small-c conservative with age, but of course that doesn't contradict the first statement.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 38 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 2 minutes ago
Red Russian (U4715)
Wrong.
For it to be a lie, all I really need to show is that the person making the claim knows that they don't have the evidence to make such a claim.
And given that surely not everyone making the claim can be as stupid as to think they do have such evidence, I'd say my comment is on solid ground.
But we're going down a rabbit hole that is probably a bit dull and semantical, so maybe best left.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't know what evidence the person (Rosso in this case, I believe) had in mind, and whether he is familiar only with superficial online polls or sociological studies crafted by academics to reveal unconscious biases. You don't know whether his claim was premised solely on their behaviour as consumers, nor what studies he may be aware of, and you unaware of, detailing such behaviour. Looking at the exchange, I don't think the original claim is defined precisely enough for you to define what evidence would be required to justify it, let alone conclude that Rosso knowingly stated something he knew he could not back up.
But yes, I'm being very pedantic and I think we can safely leave it there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know he doesn't have any evidence for the claim, because it does exist.
But I wasn't calling him a liar.
I was calling the idea a lie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a liar, but a 'person making the claim [who] knows that they don't have the evidence to make such a claim' perhaps?
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 44 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
There are all sorts of reasons for that and generally we see people become more right wing as they age.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I listened to a very interesting discussion on the radio about this - an interview with an academic who had studied the topic. As always with academics, the picture turned out to be more complex and caveated than popular narratives, but she did conclude that when a generation grows up with a set of values that distinguish it from the previous generation, it tends to stick with those throughout its voting life. They tend to get more small-c conservative with age, but of course that doesn't contradict the first statement.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is interesting... I do think people underestimate conservatism in the UK though.
There's some bizarre belief - perhaps from echo chambers online - that young people will lead a left wing revolution.
I don't see it.
The UK is really a conservative country, particularly if Scotland get their way and leave.
Maybe time will show us something different, but I think it's massively overstated - along with a lot of things about the younger generations, tbh.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 38 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 2 minutes ago
Red Russian (U4715)
Wrong.
For it to be a lie, all I really need to show is that the person making the claim knows that they don't have the evidence to make such a claim.
And given that surely not everyone making the claim can be as stupid as to think they do have such evidence, I'd say my comment is on solid ground.
But we're going down a rabbit hole that is probably a bit dull and semantical, so maybe best left.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't know what evidence the person (Rosso in this case, I believe) had in mind, and whether he is familiar only with superficial online polls or sociological studies crafted by academics to reveal unconscious biases. You don't know whether his claim was premised solely on their behaviour as consumers, nor what studies he may be aware of, and you unaware of, detailing such behaviour. Looking at the exchange, I don't think the original claim is defined precisely enough for you to define what evidence would be required to justify it, let alone conclude that Rosso knowingly stated something he knew he could not back up.
But yes, I'm being very pedantic and I think we can safely leave it there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know he doesn't have any evidence for the claim, because it does exist.
But I wasn't calling him a liar.
I was calling the idea a lie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a liar, but a 'person making the claim [who] knows that they don't have the evidence to make such a claim' perhaps?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, I was talking more generally then in response to your point.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 44 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
There are all sorts of reasons for that and generally we see people become more right wing as they age.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I listened to a very interesting discussion on the radio about this - an interview with an academic who had studied the topic. As always with academics, the picture turned out to be more complex and caveated than popular narratives, but she did conclude that when a generation grows up with a set of values that distinguish it from the previous generation, it tends to stick with those throughout its voting life. They tend to get more small-c conservative with age, but of course that doesn't contradict the first statement.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is interesting... I do think people underestimate conservatism in the UK though.
There's some bizarre belief - perhaps from echo chambers online - that young people will lead a left wing revolution.
I don't see it.
The UK is really a conservative country, particularly if Scotland get their way and leave.
Maybe time will show us something different, but I think it's massively overstated - along with a lot of things about the younger generations, tbh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Funny that I was right wing when young, and gradually became left wing.
manusince52 (U9692)
I'm the same, but I married into a heavily left wing family and have really enjoyed seeing a different perspective.
@RR - I wansn't meaning to make it left v right but I do think that there is a certain section of environmentalists that are. That their deep roots in this climate change discussion is borne out of their despise of capitalism and that they truly want an authoritarian government control.
I'm not saying that EVERY ennvironmentalist is doing this nor that EVERY left-leaning person is an environmnetalist because of their political / economic viewpoint but in a venn diagram, there will be a section that is both.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 4 minutes ago
It is interesting... I do think people underestimate conservatism in the UK though.
There's some bizarre belief - perhaps from echo chambers online - that young people will lead a left wing revolution.
I don't see it.
The UK is really a conservative country, particularly if Scotland get their way and leave.
Maybe time will show us something different, but I think it's massively overstated - along with a lot of things about the younger generations, tbh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree that these phenomena and generational distinctions are very much exaggerated. It's complacently tempting for older progressives (like me!) to hope that the youngsters will solve everything for us.
As for the conservatism of the UK, two thoughts. First of all, you're right - and again, it's easy for lefties to lapse into wishful thinking. Secondly (not disagreeing with you, just musing) I tend to think that the culture and values of any country are more malleable than they seem, and tend to be shaped by the prevailing discourse, which in turn is influenced by who owns / controls the media. So in the UK for instance if you poll people on their views about specific policies and then ask them which parties or politicians they would vote for, you tend to see a gap. The policies people agree with are on average to the left of the governments they elect. I don't know if that tells us that British people are more left-wing than they think they are, but it does suggest to me that their political instincts are quite fluid and open to influence.
I think there's a boatload of evidence that, generally-speaking, younger people in the developed world are thinking more about the environment when they act *when it comes to certain lifestyle choices* than older generations, beyond their responses to surveys about lifestyle changes. I also think that we still have some collective blindspots across generations, flying being a (very) major one.
RR has mentioned peoples' party affiliations and voting patterns. There's also data on reduction of meat and dairy consumption/flexitarianism/veganism; there's vehicle registration data (which backs up what younger people have said about favouring hybrids and electric vehicles when purchasing new vehicles, despite relative disposable incomes); there's data on the focus of charitable giving and campaign donations across age demographics; there's campaign group membership, etc.
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 minutes ago
@RR - I wansn't meaning to make it left v right but I do think that there is a certain section of environmentalists that are. That their deep roots in this climate change discussion is borne out of their despise of capitalism and that they truly want an authoritarian government control.
I'm not saying that EVERY ennvironmentalist is doing this nor that EVERY left-leaning person is an environmnetalist because of their political / economic viewpoint but in a venn diagram, there will be a section that is both.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Likewise, there are certainly people who are right leaning that will be against anything that looks remotely like a "woke" campaign or a push towards socialism.
The idea that scientific consensus is left or right is baffling to me.. But here we are.
^ Note *generally-speaking* and *certain lifestyle choices*.
Of course, these are not absolutes. It would be ridiculous to argue otherwise.
Red Russian (U4715)
Interesting.
A crude interpretation is that people are left wing when it suits them, but when it comes down to brass tacks, they care mostly about themselves and their family before anything else.
But your point about the media is an important one and if anything will shift the political position of the UK then it's the deterioration of the mainstream media.
I don't think we can properly read the effects of social media echo chambers yet, but the next 20-30 years will be very interesting to observe.
The problem with reading on the subject is that it's invariably biased by the author, though I do enjoy learning on the subject in general.
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 2 minutes ago
I think there's a boatload of evidence that, generally-speaking, younger people in the developed world are thinking more about the environment when they act *when it comes to certain lifestyle choices* than older generations, beyond their responses to surveys about lifestyle changes. I also think that we still have some collective blindspots across generations, flying being a (very) major one.
RR has mentioned peoples' party affiliations and voting patterns. There's also data on reduction of meat and dairy consumption/flexitarianism/veganism; there's vehicle registration data (which backs up what younger people have said about favouring hybrids and electric vehicles when purchasing new vehicles, despite relative disposable incomes); there's data on the focus of charitable giving and campaign donations across age demographics; there's campaign group membership, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Where's the boatload of evidence and when you say 'more', is it enough for this discussion to completely generalise whole generations?
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 minutes ago
@RR - I wansn't meaning to make it left v right but I do think that there is a certain section of environmentalists that are. That their deep roots in this climate change discussion is borne out of their despise of capitalism and that they truly want an authoritarian government control.
I'm not saying that EVERY ennvironmentalist is doing this nor that EVERY left-leaning person is an environmnetalist because of their political / economic viewpoint but in a venn diagram, there will be a section that is both.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed SatNav.
I think it was you earlier in this thread who made the connection between environmentalism and opposing capitalism. I don't know the truth behind it, but I suppose it's logical that if you are a socialist, you'll find it harder to get behind ideas that involve regulating the economy more for the common good. Conversely, if you're committed to free market capitalism, you may find it harder to swallow, and may listen more carefully to people claiming that the science isn't settled or it's a commie plot.
As to the 'overpopulation' question we were originally discussing, as far as I know, this is a pretty fringe view within environmentalist circles (for the reasons I mentioned before). I'm also not aware of any mainstream left or centre-right political parties that talk about overpopulation. To my incomplete knowledge, it's basically a marginal view at the moment + spouted by people on the internet / in the pub who maybe come from a place of ignorance rather than ideology.
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin - It's Beekers! (U2958)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 minutes ago
@RR - I wansn't meaning to make it left v right but I do think that there is a certain section of environmentalists that are. That their deep roots in this climate change discussion is borne out of their despise of capitalism and that they truly want an authoritarian government control.
I'm not saying that EVERY ennvironmentalist is doing this nor that EVERY left-leaning person is an environmnetalist because of their political / economic viewpoint but in a venn diagram, there will be a section that is both.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Likewise, there are certainly people who are right leaning that will be against anything that looks remotely like a "woke" campaign or a push towards socialism.
The idea that scientific consensus is left or right is baffling to me.. But here we are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are also very many people (some of whom are environmentalists) who despise capitalism and despise authoritarian government control, obviously.
You cannot convince me that these protestors live a 100% oil free life. There is just no way. So that makes them facking hypocrites.
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 minutes ago
@RR - I wansn't meaning to make it left v right but I do think that there is a certain section of environmentalists that are. That their deep roots in this climate change discussion is borne out of their despise of capitalism and that they truly want an authoritarian government control.
I'm not saying that EVERY ennvironmentalist is doing this nor that EVERY left-leaning person is an environmnetalist because of their political / economic viewpoint but in a venn diagram, there will be a section that is both.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally, I tend to see the right politicising it more. Even when people don’t openly say that climate change is a hoax to usher in communism (and I do see this stated openly - a lot), they imply the same or similar.
I don’t think a desire for authoritarian government and control is at the heart of a lot of people’s climate concerns, though they do ask for system change and a radical shift in values. What scares some on ‘the right’ is that this involves rethinking the idea that wealth and consumption equal success. A lot of it seems like a sort of Red Scare to me - anything that threatens the American Dream, the western way of life, that asks me to actively choose less when I could have more, is a hoax/communism/authoritarianism.
And I already see plenty of people stating that if/when there are food shortages next year, it won’t be because crops were baked in the fields through prolonged heatwaves etc, it will be either because of flawed green policies or, more wildly, a deliberate, WEF-governed plan to starve people, collapse western society etc.
comment by Clogfack (U1250)
posted 41 seconds ago
You cannot convince me that these protestors live a 100% oil free life. There is just no way. So that makes them facking hypocrites.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone who tries to make the world better in some way will have some smug cynic accusing them of hypocrisy. It's par for the course. Some people stay safe from being considered a hypocrite because they never stood for anything beyond self-interest.
comment by Clogfack (U1250)
posted 1 minute ago
You cannot convince me that these protestors live a 100% oil free life. There is just no way. So that makes them facking hypocrites.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It really doesn’t - I think this is a preposterous argument personally. Part of the point is that fossil fuel consumption underpins virtually everything - you can’t blame people for not being able to fully escape the system they’re protesting against. And perhaps their ideal world wouldn’t have ‘no fossil fuel’, just ‘much less fossil fuel’. Most of all though, what are you expecting them to do? Live in a cave, wash in streams, forage for food and basically cut themselves off entirely from everyday society, just so they can’t be called hypocrites?
The pillers of boomerism are being rejected by the Gen Z generation.
Driving
Car ownership
Commuting
Office working
Staying in the same place forever
Home ownership etc
Marrying the first person you see for fear of being alone
There is a shift towards a more shared approached. Shared mobility. Shared fannnies and balls. Short term renting. Working from wherever they want.
Covid accelerated the shift away from a boomerist society. Gen X will still push it for a few years still. Tradition for tradition's sake will only last so long before better solutions to the same old are found.
But to think that the younger generations will grow up and adopt the behaviours of the older generations eventually is off the mark.
comment by Clogfack (U1250)
posted 5 minutes ago
You cannot convince me that these protestors live a 100% oil free life. There is just no way. So that makes them facking hypocrites.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, no it does not.
Our society is hopelessly addicted to oil based products to the point where it is almost impossible, probably impossible to survive in it without using a single oil based product. That is on society, not the individual.
“But to think that the younger generations will grow up and adopt the behaviours of the older generations eventually is off the mark.”
Most of them behave in exactly the same way already.
I saw one of the Just Stop Oil protesters’ videos on Twitter. One person commenting - as far as I could tell, in all seriousness - was saying that the rims of her glasses would have been made in a factory using fossil fuels, ergo she’s a hypocrite.
comment by Clockwork Red: Jadon and the Argonauts (U4892)
posted 1 minute ago
Live in a cave, wash in streams, forage for food and basically cut themselves off entirely from everyday society, just so they can’t be called hypocrites?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd actually love to do that... Actually being able to do it in a legal way is next to impossible. As you say, we are trapped in a system that does not allow us to stay too far away from the corporate machine to that point where it would be illegal to just live off the land unless you already own said land (and even then, it's very difficult and still requires things like council tax, which gets spent on oil based items).
Sign in if you want to comment
Fack the protestors
Page 11 of 17
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posted on 8/11/22
Around me, and in my extended family there are many more vegetarians among the younger set. I don't think it's anything to do with environmental issues though, it's because they don't like meat.
Many didn't when I was young, but were forced/encouraged to eat it as it was rationed, and thought good for growing children..
Conversely, I pass two McDonald's, one KFC that always seem to be busy. One Holy Moly that isn't. And umpteen kebab shops that are mixed.
One grand-daughter has a pet rabbit. I said to the parents 'always good to have a réservé of food'.
They were horrified, but they don't get English humour.
posted on 8/11/22
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
There are all sorts of reasons for that and generally we see people become more right wing as they age.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I listened to a very interesting discussion on the radio about this - an interview with an academic who had studied the topic. As always with academics, the picture turned out to be more complex and caveated than popular narratives, but she did conclude that when a generation grows up with a set of values that distinguish it from the previous generation, it tends to stick with those throughout its voting life. They tend to get more small-c conservative with age, but of course that doesn't contradict the first statement.
posted on 8/11/22
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 38 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 2 minutes ago
Red Russian (U4715)
Wrong.
For it to be a lie, all I really need to show is that the person making the claim knows that they don't have the evidence to make such a claim.
And given that surely not everyone making the claim can be as stupid as to think they do have such evidence, I'd say my comment is on solid ground.
But we're going down a rabbit hole that is probably a bit dull and semantical, so maybe best left.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't know what evidence the person (Rosso in this case, I believe) had in mind, and whether he is familiar only with superficial online polls or sociological studies crafted by academics to reveal unconscious biases. You don't know whether his claim was premised solely on their behaviour as consumers, nor what studies he may be aware of, and you unaware of, detailing such behaviour. Looking at the exchange, I don't think the original claim is defined precisely enough for you to define what evidence would be required to justify it, let alone conclude that Rosso knowingly stated something he knew he could not back up.
But yes, I'm being very pedantic and I think we can safely leave it there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know he doesn't have any evidence for the claim, because it does exist.
But I wasn't calling him a liar.
I was calling the idea a lie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a liar, but a 'person making the claim [who] knows that they don't have the evidence to make such a claim' perhaps?
posted on 8/11/22
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 44 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
There are all sorts of reasons for that and generally we see people become more right wing as they age.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I listened to a very interesting discussion on the radio about this - an interview with an academic who had studied the topic. As always with academics, the picture turned out to be more complex and caveated than popular narratives, but she did conclude that when a generation grows up with a set of values that distinguish it from the previous generation, it tends to stick with those throughout its voting life. They tend to get more small-c conservative with age, but of course that doesn't contradict the first statement.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is interesting... I do think people underestimate conservatism in the UK though.
There's some bizarre belief - perhaps from echo chambers online - that young people will lead a left wing revolution.
I don't see it.
The UK is really a conservative country, particularly if Scotland get their way and leave.
Maybe time will show us something different, but I think it's massively overstated - along with a lot of things about the younger generations, tbh.
posted on 8/11/22
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 38 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 2 minutes ago
Red Russian (U4715)
Wrong.
For it to be a lie, all I really need to show is that the person making the claim knows that they don't have the evidence to make such a claim.
And given that surely not everyone making the claim can be as stupid as to think they do have such evidence, I'd say my comment is on solid ground.
But we're going down a rabbit hole that is probably a bit dull and semantical, so maybe best left.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't know what evidence the person (Rosso in this case, I believe) had in mind, and whether he is familiar only with superficial online polls or sociological studies crafted by academics to reveal unconscious biases. You don't know whether his claim was premised solely on their behaviour as consumers, nor what studies he may be aware of, and you unaware of, detailing such behaviour. Looking at the exchange, I don't think the original claim is defined precisely enough for you to define what evidence would be required to justify it, let alone conclude that Rosso knowingly stated something he knew he could not back up.
But yes, I'm being very pedantic and I think we can safely leave it there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know he doesn't have any evidence for the claim, because it does exist.
But I wasn't calling him a liar.
I was calling the idea a lie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a liar, but a 'person making the claim [who] knows that they don't have the evidence to make such a claim' perhaps?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, I was talking more generally then in response to your point.
posted on 8/11/22
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 44 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
There are all sorts of reasons for that and generally we see people become more right wing as they age.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I listened to a very interesting discussion on the radio about this - an interview with an academic who had studied the topic. As always with academics, the picture turned out to be more complex and caveated than popular narratives, but she did conclude that when a generation grows up with a set of values that distinguish it from the previous generation, it tends to stick with those throughout its voting life. They tend to get more small-c conservative with age, but of course that doesn't contradict the first statement.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is interesting... I do think people underestimate conservatism in the UK though.
There's some bizarre belief - perhaps from echo chambers online - that young people will lead a left wing revolution.
I don't see it.
The UK is really a conservative country, particularly if Scotland get their way and leave.
Maybe time will show us something different, but I think it's massively overstated - along with a lot of things about the younger generations, tbh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Funny that I was right wing when young, and gradually became left wing.
posted on 8/11/22
manusince52 (U9692)
I'm the same, but I married into a heavily left wing family and have really enjoyed seeing a different perspective.
posted on 8/11/22
@RR - I wansn't meaning to make it left v right but I do think that there is a certain section of environmentalists that are. That their deep roots in this climate change discussion is borne out of their despise of capitalism and that they truly want an authoritarian government control.
I'm not saying that EVERY ennvironmentalist is doing this nor that EVERY left-leaning person is an environmnetalist because of their political / economic viewpoint but in a venn diagram, there will be a section that is both.
posted on 8/11/22
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 4 minutes ago
It is interesting... I do think people underestimate conservatism in the UK though.
There's some bizarre belief - perhaps from echo chambers online - that young people will lead a left wing revolution.
I don't see it.
The UK is really a conservative country, particularly if Scotland get their way and leave.
Maybe time will show us something different, but I think it's massively overstated - along with a lot of things about the younger generations, tbh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree that these phenomena and generational distinctions are very much exaggerated. It's complacently tempting for older progressives (like me!) to hope that the youngsters will solve everything for us.
As for the conservatism of the UK, two thoughts. First of all, you're right - and again, it's easy for lefties to lapse into wishful thinking. Secondly (not disagreeing with you, just musing) I tend to think that the culture and values of any country are more malleable than they seem, and tend to be shaped by the prevailing discourse, which in turn is influenced by who owns / controls the media. So in the UK for instance if you poll people on their views about specific policies and then ask them which parties or politicians they would vote for, you tend to see a gap. The policies people agree with are on average to the left of the governments they elect. I don't know if that tells us that British people are more left-wing than they think they are, but it does suggest to me that their political instincts are quite fluid and open to influence.
posted on 8/11/22
I think there's a boatload of evidence that, generally-speaking, younger people in the developed world are thinking more about the environment when they act *when it comes to certain lifestyle choices* than older generations, beyond their responses to surveys about lifestyle changes. I also think that we still have some collective blindspots across generations, flying being a (very) major one.
RR has mentioned peoples' party affiliations and voting patterns. There's also data on reduction of meat and dairy consumption/flexitarianism/veganism; there's vehicle registration data (which backs up what younger people have said about favouring hybrids and electric vehicles when purchasing new vehicles, despite relative disposable incomes); there's data on the focus of charitable giving and campaign donations across age demographics; there's campaign group membership, etc.
posted on 8/11/22
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 minutes ago
@RR - I wansn't meaning to make it left v right but I do think that there is a certain section of environmentalists that are. That their deep roots in this climate change discussion is borne out of their despise of capitalism and that they truly want an authoritarian government control.
I'm not saying that EVERY ennvironmentalist is doing this nor that EVERY left-leaning person is an environmnetalist because of their political / economic viewpoint but in a venn diagram, there will be a section that is both.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Likewise, there are certainly people who are right leaning that will be against anything that looks remotely like a "woke" campaign or a push towards socialism.
The idea that scientific consensus is left or right is baffling to me.. But here we are.
posted on 8/11/22
^ Note *generally-speaking* and *certain lifestyle choices*.
Of course, these are not absolutes. It would be ridiculous to argue otherwise.
posted on 8/11/22
Red Russian (U4715)
Interesting.
A crude interpretation is that people are left wing when it suits them, but when it comes down to brass tacks, they care mostly about themselves and their family before anything else.
But your point about the media is an important one and if anything will shift the political position of the UK then it's the deterioration of the mainstream media.
I don't think we can properly read the effects of social media echo chambers yet, but the next 20-30 years will be very interesting to observe.
The problem with reading on the subject is that it's invariably biased by the author, though I do enjoy learning on the subject in general.
posted on 8/11/22
comment by Rosso out here drippin’ in finesse (U17054)
posted 2 minutes ago
I think there's a boatload of evidence that, generally-speaking, younger people in the developed world are thinking more about the environment when they act *when it comes to certain lifestyle choices* than older generations, beyond their responses to surveys about lifestyle changes. I also think that we still have some collective blindspots across generations, flying being a (very) major one.
RR has mentioned peoples' party affiliations and voting patterns. There's also data on reduction of meat and dairy consumption/flexitarianism/veganism; there's vehicle registration data (which backs up what younger people have said about favouring hybrids and electric vehicles when purchasing new vehicles, despite relative disposable incomes); there's data on the focus of charitable giving and campaign donations across age demographics; there's campaign group membership, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Where's the boatload of evidence and when you say 'more', is it enough for this discussion to completely generalise whole generations?
posted on 8/11/22
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 minutes ago
@RR - I wansn't meaning to make it left v right but I do think that there is a certain section of environmentalists that are. That their deep roots in this climate change discussion is borne out of their despise of capitalism and that they truly want an authoritarian government control.
I'm not saying that EVERY ennvironmentalist is doing this nor that EVERY left-leaning person is an environmnetalist because of their political / economic viewpoint but in a venn diagram, there will be a section that is both.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed SatNav.
I think it was you earlier in this thread who made the connection between environmentalism and opposing capitalism. I don't know the truth behind it, but I suppose it's logical that if you are a socialist, you'll find it harder to get behind ideas that involve regulating the economy more for the common good. Conversely, if you're committed to free market capitalism, you may find it harder to swallow, and may listen more carefully to people claiming that the science isn't settled or it's a commie plot.
As to the 'overpopulation' question we were originally discussing, as far as I know, this is a pretty fringe view within environmentalist circles (for the reasons I mentioned before). I'm also not aware of any mainstream left or centre-right political parties that talk about overpopulation. To my incomplete knowledge, it's basically a marginal view at the moment + spouted by people on the internet / in the pub who maybe come from a place of ignorance rather than ideology.
posted on 8/11/22
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin - It's Beekers! (U2958)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 minutes ago
@RR - I wansn't meaning to make it left v right but I do think that there is a certain section of environmentalists that are. That their deep roots in this climate change discussion is borne out of their despise of capitalism and that they truly want an authoritarian government control.
I'm not saying that EVERY ennvironmentalist is doing this nor that EVERY left-leaning person is an environmnetalist because of their political / economic viewpoint but in a venn diagram, there will be a section that is both.
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Likewise, there are certainly people who are right leaning that will be against anything that looks remotely like a "woke" campaign or a push towards socialism.
The idea that scientific consensus is left or right is baffling to me.. But here we are.
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There are also very many people (some of whom are environmentalists) who despise capitalism and despise authoritarian government control, obviously.
posted on 8/11/22
You cannot convince me that these protestors live a 100% oil free life. There is just no way. So that makes them facking hypocrites.
posted on 8/11/22
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 3 minutes ago
@RR - I wansn't meaning to make it left v right but I do think that there is a certain section of environmentalists that are. That their deep roots in this climate change discussion is borne out of their despise of capitalism and that they truly want an authoritarian government control.
I'm not saying that EVERY ennvironmentalist is doing this nor that EVERY left-leaning person is an environmnetalist because of their political / economic viewpoint but in a venn diagram, there will be a section that is both.
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Personally, I tend to see the right politicising it more. Even when people don’t openly say that climate change is a hoax to usher in communism (and I do see this stated openly - a lot), they imply the same or similar.
I don’t think a desire for authoritarian government and control is at the heart of a lot of people’s climate concerns, though they do ask for system change and a radical shift in values. What scares some on ‘the right’ is that this involves rethinking the idea that wealth and consumption equal success. A lot of it seems like a sort of Red Scare to me - anything that threatens the American Dream, the western way of life, that asks me to actively choose less when I could have more, is a hoax/communism/authoritarianism.
And I already see plenty of people stating that if/when there are food shortages next year, it won’t be because crops were baked in the fields through prolonged heatwaves etc, it will be either because of flawed green policies or, more wildly, a deliberate, WEF-governed plan to starve people, collapse western society etc.
posted on 8/11/22
comment by Clogfack (U1250)
posted 41 seconds ago
You cannot convince me that these protestors live a 100% oil free life. There is just no way. So that makes them facking hypocrites.
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Anyone who tries to make the world better in some way will have some smug cynic accusing them of hypocrisy. It's par for the course. Some people stay safe from being considered a hypocrite because they never stood for anything beyond self-interest.
posted on 8/11/22
comment by Clogfack (U1250)
posted 1 minute ago
You cannot convince me that these protestors live a 100% oil free life. There is just no way. So that makes them facking hypocrites.
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It really doesn’t - I think this is a preposterous argument personally. Part of the point is that fossil fuel consumption underpins virtually everything - you can’t blame people for not being able to fully escape the system they’re protesting against. And perhaps their ideal world wouldn’t have ‘no fossil fuel’, just ‘much less fossil fuel’. Most of all though, what are you expecting them to do? Live in a cave, wash in streams, forage for food and basically cut themselves off entirely from everyday society, just so they can’t be called hypocrites?
posted on 8/11/22
The pillers of boomerism are being rejected by the Gen Z generation.
Driving
Car ownership
Commuting
Office working
Staying in the same place forever
Home ownership etc
Marrying the first person you see for fear of being alone
There is a shift towards a more shared approached. Shared mobility. Shared fannnies and balls. Short term renting. Working from wherever they want.
Covid accelerated the shift away from a boomerist society. Gen X will still push it for a few years still. Tradition for tradition's sake will only last so long before better solutions to the same old are found.
But to think that the younger generations will grow up and adopt the behaviours of the older generations eventually is off the mark.
posted on 8/11/22
comment by Clogfack (U1250)
posted 5 minutes ago
You cannot convince me that these protestors live a 100% oil free life. There is just no way. So that makes them facking hypocrites.
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No, no it does not.
Our society is hopelessly addicted to oil based products to the point where it is almost impossible, probably impossible to survive in it without using a single oil based product. That is on society, not the individual.
posted on 8/11/22
“But to think that the younger generations will grow up and adopt the behaviours of the older generations eventually is off the mark.”
Most of them behave in exactly the same way already.
posted on 8/11/22
I saw one of the Just Stop Oil protesters’ videos on Twitter. One person commenting - as far as I could tell, in all seriousness - was saying that the rims of her glasses would have been made in a factory using fossil fuels, ergo she’s a hypocrite.
posted on 8/11/22
comment by Clockwork Red: Jadon and the Argonauts (U4892)
posted 1 minute ago
Live in a cave, wash in streams, forage for food and basically cut themselves off entirely from everyday society, just so they can’t be called hypocrites?
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I'd actually love to do that... Actually being able to do it in a legal way is next to impossible. As you say, we are trapped in a system that does not allow us to stay too far away from the corporate machine to that point where it would be illegal to just live off the land unless you already own said land (and even then, it's very difficult and still requires things like council tax, which gets spent on oil based items).
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