4th place with a full squad should be the expectation.
Definitely not a title challenging team but still much better than what we are getting.
Most of our injuries have been in defensive areas and despite this it's still the attacking side of our game letting us down more so there's no excuses.
I think more fans would give ETH a reprieve if the attackers were banging the goals in and it was just injuries costing us silly goals. That's not what's happening though.
6th-8th its not just about the players on paper that turns into output on the pitch. All the other crap going on at the club top to bottom shows on the pitch.
6th and ETH did very well 8th he did what was about the minimum we could expect given all the circumstances.
comment by UmaThurmans_BigToe (U22864)
posted 32 seconds ago
6th-8th its not just about the players on paper that turns into output on the pitch. All the other crap going on at the club top to bottom shows on the pitch.
6th and ETH did very well 8th he did what was about the minimum we could expect given all the circumstances.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
6th and very well? Jeez
Honestly, you look dreadful to me, not on the windup.
I have no idea what your manager's gameplan or style of play is. I think your fairly lucky to be 8th as well, I feel like theres been 3-4 games I've watched where I thought you were very lucky to come away with 3 points, and none where I can think you were undeserved losers.
Your squad is relatively decent in terms of individuals, though. If a manager could get a tune out of Rashford, Hojlund, Garnacho you'd surely be pushing for top 4
If Pep managed our full strong side, I highly doubt we will finish out of the top 4. If pep or Klopp inherited the squad our manager did and spent circa 400m, we will definitely not be finishing out of the top 4.
This manager is not in their league or even near. The question becomes why endure this?
comment by Chris H (U15205)
posted 1 minute ago
Honestly, you look dreadful to me, not on the windup.
I have no idea what your manager's gameplan or style of play is. I think your fairly lucky to be 8th as well, I feel like theres been 3-4 games I've watched where I thought you were very lucky to come away with 3 points, and none where I can think you were undeserved losers.
Your squad is relatively decent in terms of individuals, though. If a manager could get a tune out of Rashford, Hojlund, Garnacho you'd surely be pushing for top 4
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We are dreadful. The potential of this current squad is 4th. With the right manager, maybe 3rd and trying to push the top 2.
We have performed well in about 2 games - most of our wins have been struggles, thanks to individual moments rather than coherent team performances. If we were 5th or 6th but playing decent stuff, I could accept that, but we look rudderless - it just doesn't feel that ETH is the answer, regardless of other issues. We shouldn't be this bad.
We are meant to be the biggest club in the world. Would Real Madrid or Bayern ever be happy with getting top 4 and going trophyless? It should be title or failure if we actually want to make claim to being the biggest club in the world. If we looked across at Real Madrid from here in equivalent positions, would we really respect them as the biggest club in the world, finishing 4/5/6/7 each season for the past decade and never going anywhere in the CL or really winning any trophies?
Are we just so desperate to be happy as a fan that we lower the bar just to bring faux happiness? We don't need to be happy. That's counter productive. We need to be ANGRY. I am FURIOUS. We need to punch and kick things at Old Trafford. The tea lady, push her over. Stewards, blow in their ear as they try and steward the match. It is way more annoying than it sounds. We need to be fighting back against this failure and these little things are a start. Piiss on the floor in the toilets if you don't already.
ETH wouldn't have survived Christmas at Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern etc. The reason he did with us was partly due to the delayed takeover and partly because standards are now on the floor at the club.
I have no issue with him staying till summer now as it's very unlikely the right man we want to replace him is available now. The season is more or less a write off now too with only the FA cup which is of any interest.
He isn't going to get a season 3 is my feeling and tbh he doesn't really deserve it from what we've seen. Too many mistakes.
comment by Robb - Glenn Maxwell. Legend. Hero. Icon. (U22716)
posted 25 minutes ago
4th place with a full squad should be the expectation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it is the minimum expectation of Man United.
comment by Frank van Eijs (U1734)
posted 44 seconds ago
We are meant to be the biggest club in the world. Would Real Madrid or Bayern ever be happy with getting top 4 and going trophyless? It should be title or failure if we actually want to make claim to being the biggest club in the world. If we looked across at Real Madrid from here in equivalent positions, would we really respect them as the biggest club in the world, finishing 4/5/6/7 each season for the past decade and never going anywhere in the CL or really winning any trophies?
Are we just so desperate to be happy as a fan that we lower the bar just to bring faux happiness? We don't need to be happy. That's counter productive. We need to be ANGRY. I am FURIOUS. We need to punch and kick things at Old Trafford. The tea lady, push her over. Stewards, blow in their ear as they try and steward the match. It is way more annoying than it sounds. We need to be fighting back against this failure and these little things are a start. Piiss on the floor in the toilets if you don't already.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No offence Frank but United are not even close to the "biggest club" in the world and only a tiny fringe still say that about United. United are not even close to the biggest club in the world in any metric what so ever.
With the current state and the past decade United no longer have the right to just show up and expect a win. It's taken a long time but most fans are starting to realise how far the club is off from being a decent side again and rightly lowering the expectations. To simply say "anything winning the treble every season is a failure!!" well that's what's partly to blame for the current state.
comment by UmaThurmans_BigToe (U22864)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Frank van Eijs (U1734)
posted 44 seconds ago
We are meant to be the biggest club in the world. Would Real Madrid or Bayern ever be happy with getting top 4 and going trophyless? It should be title or failure if we actually want to make claim to being the biggest club in the world. If we looked across at Real Madrid from here in equivalent positions, would we really respect them as the biggest club in the world, finishing 4/5/6/7 each season for the past decade and never going anywhere in the CL or really winning any trophies?
Are we just so desperate to be happy as a fan that we lower the bar just to bring faux happiness? We don't need to be happy. That's counter productive. We need to be ANGRY. I am FURIOUS. We need to punch and kick things at Old Trafford. The tea lady, push her over. Stewards, blow in their ear as they try and steward the match. It is way more annoying than it sounds. We need to be fighting back against this failure and these little things are a start. Piiss on the floor in the toilets if you don't already.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No offence Frank but United are not even close to the "biggest club" in the world and only a tiny fringe still say that about United. United are not even close to the biggest club in the world in any metric what so ever.
With the current state and the past decade United no longer have the right to just show up and expect a win. It's taken a long time but most fans are starting to realise how far the club is off from being a decent side again and rightly lowering the expectations. To simply say "anything winning the treble every season is a failure!!" well that's what's partly to blame for the current state.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have followed Utd since early 80s. So don't remember the relegation of the mid 70s which obviously was a real low point.
There were fun times under big Ron, but we were more of a cup team than being consistent enough to win the league. the early SAF years were tough going, and let's be honest, no-one really foresaw how that eventually turned out.
Post SAF has been poor with a few highlights, but this current period is probably as low as I have felt supporting Utd. I knew post SAF there would be maybe some lean times but we have just been on a gradual downhill spiral with the very odd peak, but it really is ridiculous where the club finds itself.
All very depressing indeed
I have followed Utd since early 80s. So don't remember the relegation of the mid 70s which obviously was a real low point.
+++
The season played out in Division 2 was a blessing in disguise and was for many Reds, one of the best seasons ever to be a United supporter.
Whilst I do think ETH needs to do better I do also think the injuries can be used as mitigation too.
Even Liverpool under Klopp struggled last season (as they did the year after winning* the PL) because of injuries and because they'd played an insane number of matches the previous season.
If we do get our players back then we could consider this ground zero for Ten Hag as he has no too many games excuses for the rest of the season.
comment by RB&W - One man down, One nil up (U21434)
posted 5 minutes ago
I have followed Utd since early 80s. So don't remember the relegation of the mid 70s which obviously was a real low point.
+++
The season played out in Division 2 was a blessing in disguise and was for many Reds, one of the best seasons ever to be a United supporter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read about that season and Utd were so dominant in getting promoted, so that would have been enjoyable I guess. Not sure we would want to go through it again...................
On the OP premise - the same manager being in charge of every squad - I think it's important to bear in mind that a big part of success in football is having squads and managers (and their styles) suiting each other. So putting the same guy in charge of every team doesn't necessarily tell us who has the best squad.
I raise that not to be pedantic, but because I believe this is one of the big issues United faces: a squad that simply isn't very well equipped in too many areas to play the kind of football ETH would ideally want.
With the OP's thought experiment, I guess you would require an infinitely pragmatic and adaptable manager to do the job of managing every team and getting the best from each squad. What we thought we were getting with ETH was a manager who offered an appealing combination of 'modern' possession/counter-pressing methods + undogmatic ability to apply different solutions to different teams. A recurring topic in his first weeks was the extent to which he'd prioritise changing our playing style (at the expense of short-term results) vs getting the most out of the team at his disposal, with its limitations and habits (at the expense of delaying the evolution of our football). I wonder whether the current struggles of the team to play coherently reflect a failure (among other things) to navigate that dilemma successfully.
But whoever the manager, I think United have too many players who aren't technically secure playing at the elite level, and too many who don't have the athletic attributes.
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by RB&W - One man down, One nil up (U21434)
posted 5 minutes ago
I have followed Utd since early 80s. So don't remember the relegation of the mid 70s which obviously was a real low point.
+++
The season played out in Division 2 was a blessing in disguise and was for many Reds, one of the best seasons ever to be a United supporter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read about that season and Utd were so dominant in getting promoted, so that would have been enjoyable I guess. Not sure we would want to go through it again...................
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It wasnt as straight forward for United that season. Sunderland had a great side that pushed United all the way. They won the game at Roker Park and the game at OT (The Billy Hughes masterclass) was legendary. Biggest UK attendance of the season. On MOTD although a Div2 game. Imagine that today. Thousand locked outside before the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwKatX8Wswo
4th feels about par for course with this squad.
I would say that Klopp would probably be best suited to the the most out of the squad that we have and might achieve a 3rd/and place finish.
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 35 minutes ago
4th feels about par for course with this squad.
I would say that Klopp would probably be best suited to the the most out of the squad that we have and might achieve a 3rd/and place finish.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Klopp would do like he's done in the past and protected his defence by playing at least two defensively minded midfielders. That's why VVD has better than average stats.
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 1 hour, 18 minutes ago
comment by RB&W - One man down, One nil up (U21434)
posted 5 minutes ago
I have followed Utd since early 80s. So don't remember the relegation of the mid 70s which obviously was a real low point.
+++
The season played out in Division 2 was a blessing in disguise and was for many Reds, one of the best seasons ever to be a United supporter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read about that season and Utd were so dominant in getting promoted, so that would have been enjoyable I guess. Not sure we would want to go through it again...................
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I now quite a few Leeds fans that stopped going to games in the PL. They have now started going again since relegation.
They say it is more enjoyable in the Championship.
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 17 minutes ago
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 1 hour, 18 minutes ago
comment by RB&W - One man down, One nil up (U21434)
posted 5 minutes ago
I have followed Utd since early 80s. So don't remember the relegation of the mid 70s which obviously was a real low point.
+++
The season played out in Division 2 was a blessing in disguise and was for many Reds, one of the best seasons ever to be a United supporter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read about that season and Utd were so dominant in getting promoted, so that would have been enjoyable I guess. Not sure we would want to go through it again...................
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I now quite a few Leeds fans that stopped going to games in the PL. They have now started going again since relegation.
They say it is more enjoyable in the Championship.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They would know I suppose.
Sign in if you want to comment
Genuinely, how good are we?
Page 1 of 2
posted on 8/1/24
4th place with a full squad should be the expectation.
posted on 8/1/24
Definitely not a title challenging team but still much better than what we are getting.
Most of our injuries have been in defensive areas and despite this it's still the attacking side of our game letting us down more so there's no excuses.
I think more fans would give ETH a reprieve if the attackers were banging the goals in and it was just injuries costing us silly goals. That's not what's happening though.
posted on 8/1/24
6th-8th its not just about the players on paper that turns into output on the pitch. All the other crap going on at the club top to bottom shows on the pitch.
6th and ETH did very well 8th he did what was about the minimum we could expect given all the circumstances.
posted on 8/1/24
comment by UmaThurmans_BigToe (U22864)
posted 32 seconds ago
6th-8th its not just about the players on paper that turns into output on the pitch. All the other crap going on at the club top to bottom shows on the pitch.
6th and ETH did very well 8th he did what was about the minimum we could expect given all the circumstances.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
6th and very well? Jeez
posted on 8/1/24
Honestly, you look dreadful to me, not on the windup.
I have no idea what your manager's gameplan or style of play is. I think your fairly lucky to be 8th as well, I feel like theres been 3-4 games I've watched where I thought you were very lucky to come away with 3 points, and none where I can think you were undeserved losers.
Your squad is relatively decent in terms of individuals, though. If a manager could get a tune out of Rashford, Hojlund, Garnacho you'd surely be pushing for top 4
posted on 8/1/24
If Pep managed our full strong side, I highly doubt we will finish out of the top 4. If pep or Klopp inherited the squad our manager did and spent circa 400m, we will definitely not be finishing out of the top 4.
This manager is not in their league or even near. The question becomes why endure this?
posted on 8/1/24
comment by Chris H (U15205)
posted 1 minute ago
Honestly, you look dreadful to me, not on the windup.
I have no idea what your manager's gameplan or style of play is. I think your fairly lucky to be 8th as well, I feel like theres been 3-4 games I've watched where I thought you were very lucky to come away with 3 points, and none where I can think you were undeserved losers.
Your squad is relatively decent in terms of individuals, though. If a manager could get a tune out of Rashford, Hojlund, Garnacho you'd surely be pushing for top 4
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We are dreadful. The potential of this current squad is 4th. With the right manager, maybe 3rd and trying to push the top 2.
We have performed well in about 2 games - most of our wins have been struggles, thanks to individual moments rather than coherent team performances. If we were 5th or 6th but playing decent stuff, I could accept that, but we look rudderless - it just doesn't feel that ETH is the answer, regardless of other issues. We shouldn't be this bad.
posted on 8/1/24
We are meant to be the biggest club in the world. Would Real Madrid or Bayern ever be happy with getting top 4 and going trophyless? It should be title or failure if we actually want to make claim to being the biggest club in the world. If we looked across at Real Madrid from here in equivalent positions, would we really respect them as the biggest club in the world, finishing 4/5/6/7 each season for the past decade and never going anywhere in the CL or really winning any trophies?
Are we just so desperate to be happy as a fan that we lower the bar just to bring faux happiness? We don't need to be happy. That's counter productive. We need to be ANGRY. I am FURIOUS. We need to punch and kick things at Old Trafford. The tea lady, push her over. Stewards, blow in their ear as they try and steward the match. It is way more annoying than it sounds. We need to be fighting back against this failure and these little things are a start. Piiss on the floor in the toilets if you don't already.
posted on 8/1/24
ETH wouldn't have survived Christmas at Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern etc. The reason he did with us was partly due to the delayed takeover and partly because standards are now on the floor at the club.
I have no issue with him staying till summer now as it's very unlikely the right man we want to replace him is available now. The season is more or less a write off now too with only the FA cup which is of any interest.
He isn't going to get a season 3 is my feeling and tbh he doesn't really deserve it from what we've seen. Too many mistakes.
posted on 8/1/24
comment by Robb - Glenn Maxwell. Legend. Hero. Icon. (U22716)
posted 25 minutes ago
4th place with a full squad should be the expectation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it is the minimum expectation of Man United.
posted on 8/1/24
comment by Frank van Eijs (U1734)
posted 44 seconds ago
We are meant to be the biggest club in the world. Would Real Madrid or Bayern ever be happy with getting top 4 and going trophyless? It should be title or failure if we actually want to make claim to being the biggest club in the world. If we looked across at Real Madrid from here in equivalent positions, would we really respect them as the biggest club in the world, finishing 4/5/6/7 each season for the past decade and never going anywhere in the CL or really winning any trophies?
Are we just so desperate to be happy as a fan that we lower the bar just to bring faux happiness? We don't need to be happy. That's counter productive. We need to be ANGRY. I am FURIOUS. We need to punch and kick things at Old Trafford. The tea lady, push her over. Stewards, blow in their ear as they try and steward the match. It is way more annoying than it sounds. We need to be fighting back against this failure and these little things are a start. Piiss on the floor in the toilets if you don't already.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No offence Frank but United are not even close to the "biggest club" in the world and only a tiny fringe still say that about United. United are not even close to the biggest club in the world in any metric what so ever.
With the current state and the past decade United no longer have the right to just show up and expect a win. It's taken a long time but most fans are starting to realise how far the club is off from being a decent side again and rightly lowering the expectations. To simply say "anything winning the treble every season is a failure!!" well that's what's partly to blame for the current state.
posted on 8/1/24
comment by UmaThurmans_BigToe (U22864)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Frank van Eijs (U1734)
posted 44 seconds ago
We are meant to be the biggest club in the world. Would Real Madrid or Bayern ever be happy with getting top 4 and going trophyless? It should be title or failure if we actually want to make claim to being the biggest club in the world. If we looked across at Real Madrid from here in equivalent positions, would we really respect them as the biggest club in the world, finishing 4/5/6/7 each season for the past decade and never going anywhere in the CL or really winning any trophies?
Are we just so desperate to be happy as a fan that we lower the bar just to bring faux happiness? We don't need to be happy. That's counter productive. We need to be ANGRY. I am FURIOUS. We need to punch and kick things at Old Trafford. The tea lady, push her over. Stewards, blow in their ear as they try and steward the match. It is way more annoying than it sounds. We need to be fighting back against this failure and these little things are a start. Piiss on the floor in the toilets if you don't already.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No offence Frank but United are not even close to the "biggest club" in the world and only a tiny fringe still say that about United. United are not even close to the biggest club in the world in any metric what so ever.
With the current state and the past decade United no longer have the right to just show up and expect a win. It's taken a long time but most fans are starting to realise how far the club is off from being a decent side again and rightly lowering the expectations. To simply say "anything winning the treble every season is a failure!!" well that's what's partly to blame for the current state.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 8/1/24
Barry strikes again
posted on 8/1/24
I have followed Utd since early 80s. So don't remember the relegation of the mid 70s which obviously was a real low point.
There were fun times under big Ron, but we were more of a cup team than being consistent enough to win the league. the early SAF years were tough going, and let's be honest, no-one really foresaw how that eventually turned out.
Post SAF has been poor with a few highlights, but this current period is probably as low as I have felt supporting Utd. I knew post SAF there would be maybe some lean times but we have just been on a gradual downhill spiral with the very odd peak, but it really is ridiculous where the club finds itself.
All very depressing indeed
posted on 8/1/24
I have followed Utd since early 80s. So don't remember the relegation of the mid 70s which obviously was a real low point.
+++
The season played out in Division 2 was a blessing in disguise and was for many Reds, one of the best seasons ever to be a United supporter.
posted on 8/1/24
Whilst I do think ETH needs to do better I do also think the injuries can be used as mitigation too.
Even Liverpool under Klopp struggled last season (as they did the year after winning* the PL) because of injuries and because they'd played an insane number of matches the previous season.
If we do get our players back then we could consider this ground zero for Ten Hag as he has no too many games excuses for the rest of the season.
posted on 8/1/24
comment by RB&W - One man down, One nil up (U21434)
posted 5 minutes ago
I have followed Utd since early 80s. So don't remember the relegation of the mid 70s which obviously was a real low point.
+++
The season played out in Division 2 was a blessing in disguise and was for many Reds, one of the best seasons ever to be a United supporter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read about that season and Utd were so dominant in getting promoted, so that would have been enjoyable I guess. Not sure we would want to go through it again...................
posted on 8/1/24
On the OP premise - the same manager being in charge of every squad - I think it's important to bear in mind that a big part of success in football is having squads and managers (and their styles) suiting each other. So putting the same guy in charge of every team doesn't necessarily tell us who has the best squad.
I raise that not to be pedantic, but because I believe this is one of the big issues United faces: a squad that simply isn't very well equipped in too many areas to play the kind of football ETH would ideally want.
With the OP's thought experiment, I guess you would require an infinitely pragmatic and adaptable manager to do the job of managing every team and getting the best from each squad. What we thought we were getting with ETH was a manager who offered an appealing combination of 'modern' possession/counter-pressing methods + undogmatic ability to apply different solutions to different teams. A recurring topic in his first weeks was the extent to which he'd prioritise changing our playing style (at the expense of short-term results) vs getting the most out of the team at his disposal, with its limitations and habits (at the expense of delaying the evolution of our football). I wonder whether the current struggles of the team to play coherently reflect a failure (among other things) to navigate that dilemma successfully.
But whoever the manager, I think United have too many players who aren't technically secure playing at the elite level, and too many who don't have the athletic attributes.
posted on 8/1/24
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by RB&W - One man down, One nil up (U21434)
posted 5 minutes ago
I have followed Utd since early 80s. So don't remember the relegation of the mid 70s which obviously was a real low point.
+++
The season played out in Division 2 was a blessing in disguise and was for many Reds, one of the best seasons ever to be a United supporter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read about that season and Utd were so dominant in getting promoted, so that would have been enjoyable I guess. Not sure we would want to go through it again...................
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It wasnt as straight forward for United that season. Sunderland had a great side that pushed United all the way. They won the game at Roker Park and the game at OT (The Billy Hughes masterclass) was legendary. Biggest UK attendance of the season. On MOTD although a Div2 game. Imagine that today. Thousand locked outside before the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwKatX8Wswo
posted on 8/1/24
4th feels about par for course with this squad.
I would say that Klopp would probably be best suited to the the most out of the squad that we have and might achieve a 3rd/and place finish.
posted on 8/1/24
*3rd/and place finish
posted on 8/1/24
posted on 8/1/24
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 35 minutes ago
4th feels about par for course with this squad.
I would say that Klopp would probably be best suited to the the most out of the squad that we have and might achieve a 3rd/and place finish.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Klopp would do like he's done in the past and protected his defence by playing at least two defensively minded midfielders. That's why VVD has better than average stats.
posted on 8/1/24
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 1 hour, 18 minutes ago
comment by RB&W - One man down, One nil up (U21434)
posted 5 minutes ago
I have followed Utd since early 80s. So don't remember the relegation of the mid 70s which obviously was a real low point.
+++
The season played out in Division 2 was a blessing in disguise and was for many Reds, one of the best seasons ever to be a United supporter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read about that season and Utd were so dominant in getting promoted, so that would have been enjoyable I guess. Not sure we would want to go through it again...................
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I now quite a few Leeds fans that stopped going to games in the PL. They have now started going again since relegation.
They say it is more enjoyable in the Championship.
posted on 8/1/24
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 17 minutes ago
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 1 hour, 18 minutes ago
comment by RB&W - One man down, One nil up (U21434)
posted 5 minutes ago
I have followed Utd since early 80s. So don't remember the relegation of the mid 70s which obviously was a real low point.
+++
The season played out in Division 2 was a blessing in disguise and was for many Reds, one of the best seasons ever to be a United supporter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read about that season and Utd were so dominant in getting promoted, so that would have been enjoyable I guess. Not sure we would want to go through it again...................
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I now quite a few Leeds fans that stopped going to games in the PL. They have now started going again since relegation.
They say it is more enjoyable in the Championship.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They would know I suppose.
Page 1 of 2