comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 5 minutes ago
The vast majority on here are Labour voters and against Brexit so my question is why the hell isn't a reversal of Brexit even on their agenda, let alone somewhere near the top of it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I voted remain and I would do it again without hesitation.
However overturning results of a demographic vote is a dangerous path to go down. This is why nobody goes near the dreaded B word much anymore.
I'm still angry with how complacent we all were. We basically thought remain was a sure thing and it clearly wasn't. Vote leave played a dirty game with some very questionable slogans on buses and sadly the other side didn't do enough to dampen them
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 2 minutes ago
You want more drama and division?
Brexits done, maybe in a year or two we start talking about customs unions but there are things more pressing like housing, the NHS, clean water, rebuilding international trust
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe in a decade or 2, going to take at least that just to fix the first two things
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by Jerry O'Driscoll (U1734)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 minute ago
Government opposition in the Corbyn mould is exactly the reason why we've found ourselves in the absolute shiiiiter with the Tories for as long as we have. His unelectable, protest politics just gave the Tories free reign to pretty much do what they wanted without being held to account by a credible threat. His luke warm stance on the EU I thought was unforgivable. Anyone that believes we're stronger apart than together is frankly stupid but that's another issue.
At least Starmer, on the centre left, is electable. He'll have the power to enforce change which is more than any pure socialist has ever done. There's a bit of Blair in the way he operates in the sense that he doesn't polarise. He recognises the issues with the welfare state but equally doesn't want to shut down enterprise. For too long we've had to listen to voices on the far left and the far right. Can we not just go back towards the middle where rational thinking and progress is usually made?
Oh, and on the Brexit thing, I've got a feeling Starmer will renegotiate things so that we're back in the EU in all but name. We might not have a seat around the table but imports and exports I'm pretty certain will be ironed out. Appease the meatheads who got us into this mess by claiming we're still out, but from an economical/logistical standpoint we're 'back in'.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you don't like it then join us in voting reform. We are taking are country back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't like what? I'd rather eat stale dogshiiit than vote for Reform. I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm a centre-left Labour voter.
Oh, and whilst you're at it, what on earth does 'taking our country back' actually mean?
As far as I'm concerned people that use lines like that are just trying to legitimise racism. It's sickening.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
typical woke snowflake scared of standing up to the liberal elite. This is are country, it belongs to us hard working christian patriot's. I will NOT speak muslami and you cannot force me too
Campaigning on rejoining the EU makes the Tories and Reform somewhat relevant, Labour don’t need that sideshow. I suspect it will be something on the agenda for them the longer they stay in power, however.
comment by Jerry O'Driscoll (U1734)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by Jerry O'Driscoll (U1734)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 minute ago
Government opposition in the Corbyn mould is exactly the reason why we've found ourselves in the absolute shiiiiter with the Tories for as long as we have. His unelectable, protest politics just gave the Tories free reign to pretty much do what they wanted without being held to account by a credible threat. His luke warm stance on the EU I thought was unforgivable. Anyone that believes we're stronger apart than together is frankly stupid but that's another issue.
At least Starmer, on the centre left, is electable. He'll have the power to enforce change which is more than any pure socialist has ever done. There's a bit of Blair in the way he operates in the sense that he doesn't polarise. He recognises the issues with the welfare state but equally doesn't want to shut down enterprise. For too long we've had to listen to voices on the far left and the far right. Can we not just go back towards the middle where rational thinking and progress is usually made?
Oh, and on the Brexit thing, I've got a feeling Starmer will renegotiate things so that we're back in the EU in all but name. We might not have a seat around the table but imports and exports I'm pretty certain will be ironed out. Appease the meatheads who got us into this mess by claiming we're still out, but from an economical/logistical standpoint we're 'back in'.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you don't like it then join us in voting reform. We are taking are country back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't like what? I'd rather eat stale dogshiiit than vote for Reform. I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm a centre-left Labour voter.
Oh, and whilst you're at it, what on earth does 'taking our country back' actually mean?
As far as I'm concerned people that use lines like that are just trying to legitimise racism. It's sickening.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
typical woke snowflake scared of standing up to the liberal elite. This is are country, it belongs to us hard working christian patriot's. I will NOT speak muslami and you cannot force me too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Muslami
comment by Jerry O'Driscoll (U1734)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by Jerry O'Driscoll (U1734)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 minute ago
Government opposition in the Corbyn mould is exactly the reason why we've found ourselves in the absolute shiiiiter with the Tories for as long as we have. His unelectable, protest politics just gave the Tories free reign to pretty much do what they wanted without being held to account by a credible threat. His luke warm stance on the EU I thought was unforgivable. Anyone that believes we're stronger apart than together is frankly stupid but that's another issue.
At least Starmer, on the centre left, is electable. He'll have the power to enforce change which is more than any pure socialist has ever done. There's a bit of Blair in the way he operates in the sense that he doesn't polarise. He recognises the issues with the welfare state but equally doesn't want to shut down enterprise. For too long we've had to listen to voices on the far left and the far right. Can we not just go back towards the middle where rational thinking and progress is usually made?
Oh, and on the Brexit thing, I've got a feeling Starmer will renegotiate things so that we're back in the EU in all but name. We might not have a seat around the table but imports and exports I'm pretty certain will be ironed out. Appease the meatheads who got us into this mess by claiming we're still out, but from an economical/logistical standpoint we're 'back in'.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you don't like it then join us in voting reform. We are taking are country back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't like what? I'd rather eat stale dogshiiit than vote for Reform. I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm a centre-left Labour voter.
Oh, and whilst you're at it, what on earth does 'taking our country back' actually mean?
As far as I'm concerned people that use lines like that are just trying to legitimise racism. It's sickening.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
typical woke snowflake scared of standing up to the liberal elite. This is are country, it belongs to us hard working christian patriot's. I will NOT speak muslami and you cannot force me too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Inshallah
What matters most is outcomes. Speaking as someone who feels this temptation myself, it's very easy when you are left-wing and motivated by overturning injustice to drift towards positions that signal maximum ethical purity. But I've seen enough times in my life such very righteous platforms fail to win anything like a governing mandate, opening up a space for authoritarian, anti-egalitarian, chauvinist governments whose success was never inevitable. And I've observed (and rubbed shoulders with) plenty of people on the Left who seem to be more interested in maintaining their own moral purity than helping to bring about the most progressive genuinely feasible outcomes in the real world. I have much less patience as I grow older with the politics of symbolism, that prioritise Taking A Stance! over changing the material conditions of society - whether that's Brexiteer fixation on imperial measurements and blue passports or Corbynite policing of how strongly worded a Labour front bench comment is - about a Tory policy that they don't have the parliamentary numbers to prevent.
In this light, I think there is legitimacy in a Labour leader taking an approach that factors in electability, and I can understand a Labour leader being extremely cautious in the context of a domestic media landscape that is hugely tilted in favour of the political Right. On the other hand, it's possible to pragmatically compromise for the sake of electability to the extent that the *outcomes* of the ensuing government are less progressive than they could have been. This is where I would draw the line indicating 'too far', not "do I agree with every word he says?"
It's hard to objectively place that line, because it's impossible to properly measure the electoral gravity. I personally believe Starmer has been too timid, and that the current danger is that we are heading for a situation where progressive outcomes are constrained by the positions Labour has taken in opposition. I think the battle for the next election is won, and Labour should now focus on positioning itself to maximise its scope to transform the country for the better in government.
But I think the criticisms from the Left often lack the recognition that calculations about electability need to be made, and that making some compromises in order to avoid losing elections doesn't mean Labour and the Tories are the same. Had the current Labour leadership won the 2019 election, the country would look very different right now.
I've always voted Labour.
Not because they have better politicians, but in the hope they will do their best to help ordinary people. By which I mean working class and middle class.
The conservatives will help businesses and themselves.
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 23 seconds ago
Starmer isn't stupid.
If he went all left wing then his chances of winning an election diminish. He has to play to the gallery a bit.
----------------------------
Important though to understand who "the gallery" is here. It's not the electorate, who rallied behind a much more radical and progressive set of political and economic ideas in 2017. Corbyn almost certainly would have been elected had it not been for the internal (and external!) sabotage revealed in the leaked Labour documents.
The Gallery is the right wing of the Labour Party and pretty much the entire corporate media spectrum. If we look at polling on public opinion, we see that the majority of public opinion on a range of important issues falls far to the left of the positions most prevalent in media discourse, as well as that of the majority of the PLP (hence why LP members voted Corbyn twice over in record numbers). These issues receive very little coverage in general, and are often completely missing around election times.
Starmer isn't "playing to the gallery" though. He's very much *part* of the gallery.
I don’t think people are claiming Starmer needs to be some hard left politician to help bring positive change to the country. I think many are just very skeptics of Starmer and the idea he will soften when in power
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 13 minutes ago
Starmer isn't stupid.
If he went all left wing then his chances of winning an election diminish. He has to play to the gallery a bit.
Whatever we thought of Blair IMO his first few terms in office were the best UK government we've had. Even though I go towards the left wing I realise being towards the centre is a bad thing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
*Isn't
It's not the electorate, who rallied behind a much more radical and progressive set of political and economic ideas in 2017. Corbyn almost certainly would have been elected had it not been for the internal (and external!) sabotage revealed in the leaked Labour documents.
-----
There's absolutely no proof he'd have been elected.
I'm not quite sure why 2017 is constantly heralded as proof Corbyn's policies were popular with the electorate when he still didn't win, and couldn't even beat May who was disliked by both remain and leave voters.
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is another thing that gripes me with the common person's view of politics. Changing a policy or pledge based on updated information isn't always a negative. I would actually consider it worse if a political leader continues with a pledge after it becomes obvious it won't work or the timelines/funding aren't feasible.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Right and is dropping pledges because there is apparently 'no money left' a common person view you have a gripe with too?
Power has decided it's Starmer's turn, that's it. He's an inexperienced and economically illiterate leader controlled by people with an ideological hatred of the left, and he's a liar too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't really understand your question to be honest. It would depend on the variables that have affected the decision to drop a pledge I guess.
Based on the rest of your post though, I guess you are just on an ideological rant based on little of substance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I pointed out he'd dropped pledges and you mentioned you have a gripe with the common person's view of changing policies etc, so I pointed out that the reason he dropped a few of his pledges is because he's subscribing to that pervasive household budget view of government spending post-Covid.
And yes I do have ideological issues with Starmer, you're welcome to dismiss away as you please
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 4 minutes ago
Campaigning on rejoining the EU makes the Tories and Reform somewhat relevant, Labour don’t need that sideshow. I suspect it will be something on the agenda for them the longer they stay in power, however.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah. The pro-Brexit cause is evidently nowhere near as powerful a driver of votes as it was, but it has very recently been a catalyst for uniting traditional, affluent Tories and working class voters in towns and previous Labour heartlands. That Boris coalition seems to have fallen apart, and I can see why Labour wants to avoid at all costs giving any gifts to the forces that want to reassemble it.
That said (as per the trade-offs described in my long post above) I'd prefer a Labour position that is clear we won't rejoin the EU in the next parliament while opening up a space in which they have a mandate for closer integration. Realistically, it's more likely that a future return to the EU will happen as a culmination of smaller steps, and what will really help the economy (and please the Labour pro-Europe base) is joining the Single Market. This currently looks politically impossible at the moment, and I find that disappointing.
comment by The Duality of Van (Dijk) (U21747)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is another thing that gripes me with the common person's view of politics. Changing a policy or pledge based on updated information isn't always a negative. I would actually consider it worse if a political leader continues with a pledge after it becomes obvious it won't work or the timelines/funding aren't feasible.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Right and is dropping pledges because there is apparently 'no money left' a common person view you have a gripe with too?
Power has decided it's Starmer's turn, that's it. He's an inexperienced and economically illiterate leader controlled by people with an ideological hatred of the left, and he's a liar too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't really understand your question to be honest. It would depend on the variables that have affected the decision to drop a pledge I guess.
Based on the rest of your post though, I guess you are just on an ideological rant based on little of substance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I pointed out he'd dropped pledges and you mentioned you have a gripe with the common person's view of changing policies etc, so I pointed out that the reason he dropped a few of his pledges is because he's subscribing to that pervasive household budget view of government spending post-Covid.
And yes I do have ideological issues with Starmer, you're welcome to dismiss away as you please
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks. They have been dismissed.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 8 minutes ago
What matters most is outcomes. Speaking as someone who feels this temptation myself, it's very easy when you are left-wing and motivated by overturning injustice to drift towards positions that signal maximum ethical purity. But I've seen enough times in my life such very righteous platforms fail to win anything like a governing mandate, opening up a space for authoritarian, anti-egalitarian, chauvinist governments whose success was never inevitable. And I've observed (and rubbed shoulders with) plenty of people on the Left who seem to be more interested in maintaining their own moral purity than helping to bring about the most progressive genuinely feasible outcomes in the real world. I have much less patience as I grow older with the politics of symbolism, that prioritise Taking A Stance! over changing the material conditions of society - whether that's Brexiteer fixation on imperial measurements and blue passports or Corbynite policing of how strongly worded a Labour front bench comment is - about a Tory policy that they don't have the parliamentary numbers to prevent.
In this light, I think there is legitimacy in a Labour leader taking an approach that factors in electability, and I can understand a Labour leader being extremely cautious in the context of a domestic media landscape that is hugely tilted in favour of the political Right. On the other hand, it's possible to pragmatically compromise for the sake of electability to the extent that the *outcomes* of the ensuing government are less progressive than they could have been. This is where I would draw the line indicating 'too far', not "do I agree with every word he says?"
It's hard to objectively place that line, because it's impossible to properly measure the electoral gravity. I personally believe Starmer has been too timid, and that the current danger is that we are heading for a situation where progressive outcomes are constrained by the positions Labour has taken in opposition. I think the battle for the next election is won, and Labour should now focus on positioning itself to maximise its scope to transform the country for the better in government.
But I think the criticisms from the Left often lack the recognition that calculations about electability need to be made, and that making some compromises in order to avoid losing elections doesn't mean Labour and the Tories are the same. Had the current Labour leadership won the 2019 election, the country would look very different right now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fantastic post, RR.
Doesn't look promising at the moment. Unfortunately the current Labour party are in the pockets of plenty of awful people.
Not only are they accepting nasty rightwing nutters into the party but they're accepting donations (little better than bribes imo) from the likes of US private medical firms.
If they came out now and said they wanted to re-join the EU I guarantee the Tories immediately surge +10 in the polls.
All it would achieve is making the 2025 election a repeat of 2019 where it was fought solely on Brexit.
Far better to get into Government and use that time to slowly convince people we should re-join.
..................
Ah, I see. My bad. I was under the impression that Brexit was now thought of by the majority of the UK as a very bad idea.
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
----------------------------
Important though to understand who "the gallery" is here. It's not the electorate, who rallied behind a much more radical and progressive set of political and economic ideas in 2017. Corbyn almost certainly would have been elected had it not been for the internal (and external!) sabotage revealed in the leaked Labour documents.
The Gallery is the right wing of the Labour Party and pretty much the entire corporate media spectrum. If we look at polling on public opinion, we see that the majority of public opinion on a range of important issues falls far to the left of the positions most prevalent in media discourse, as well as that of the majority of the PLP (hence why LP members voted Corbyn twice over in record numbers). These issues receive very little coverage in general, and are often completely missing around election times.
Starmer isn't "playing to the gallery" though. He's very much *part* of the gallery.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hard to move on from this isn't it, still hurts. And now you just get New-New Labour types gurning at you that you lost and fellating Starmer because he was Mr Darcy or whatever
He's sensible which is a much better than where we've been
Agree Labour are more centrist under Starmer than they were. I wouldn't call the Tories anything near the centre. Their biggest threat in the GE is looking like being Reform.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Labour's biggest threat is Farage playing the cvnt again and withdrawing all his candidates in existing Tory seats.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 22 seconds ago
If they came out now and said they wanted to re-join the EU I guarantee the Tories immediately surge +10 in the polls.
All it would achieve is making the 2025 election a repeat of 2019 where it was fought solely on Brexit.
Far better to get into Government and use that time to slowly convince people we should re-join.
..................
Ah, I see. My bad. I was under the impression that Brexit was now thought of by the majority of the UK as a very bad idea.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You've lived away from these shores too long VC. Vast majority of Brits are incredibly stubborn.
The people who voted Brexit still believe in it but just think it was handled badly. They haven't become remainers all of a sudden unfortunately. Some who were on the fence maybe have but I'd say there's still a very much anti EU feeling in many parts of the UK.
My parents both voted leave and me and my brother were remain. We had some very interesting debates that's for sure.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 1 minute ago
If they came out now and said they wanted to re-join the EU I guarantee the Tories immediately surge +10 in the polls.
All it would achieve is making the 2025 election a repeat of 2019 where it was fought solely on Brexit.
Far better to get into Government and use that time to slowly convince people we should re-join.
..................
Ah, I see. My bad. I was under the impression that Brexit was now thought of by the majority of the UK as a very bad idea.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Think the majority of Brexit supporters are too embarrassed to publicly continue to back Brexit, similar to a lot of people that will vote Tory at the upcoming election.
Somewhere, deep down, they know it's a disgrace but will do it anyway.
Sign in if you want to comment
Keir Starmer
Page 3 of 6
6
posted on 9/5/24
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 5 minutes ago
The vast majority on here are Labour voters and against Brexit so my question is why the hell isn't a reversal of Brexit even on their agenda, let alone somewhere near the top of it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I voted remain and I would do it again without hesitation.
However overturning results of a demographic vote is a dangerous path to go down. This is why nobody goes near the dreaded B word much anymore.
I'm still angry with how complacent we all were. We basically thought remain was a sure thing and it clearly wasn't. Vote leave played a dirty game with some very questionable slogans on buses and sadly the other side didn't do enough to dampen them
posted on 9/5/24
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 2 minutes ago
You want more drama and division?
Brexits done, maybe in a year or two we start talking about customs unions but there are things more pressing like housing, the NHS, clean water, rebuilding international trust
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe in a decade or 2, going to take at least that just to fix the first two things
posted on 9/5/24
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by Jerry O'Driscoll (U1734)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 minute ago
Government opposition in the Corbyn mould is exactly the reason why we've found ourselves in the absolute shiiiiter with the Tories for as long as we have. His unelectable, protest politics just gave the Tories free reign to pretty much do what they wanted without being held to account by a credible threat. His luke warm stance on the EU I thought was unforgivable. Anyone that believes we're stronger apart than together is frankly stupid but that's another issue.
At least Starmer, on the centre left, is electable. He'll have the power to enforce change which is more than any pure socialist has ever done. There's a bit of Blair in the way he operates in the sense that he doesn't polarise. He recognises the issues with the welfare state but equally doesn't want to shut down enterprise. For too long we've had to listen to voices on the far left and the far right. Can we not just go back towards the middle where rational thinking and progress is usually made?
Oh, and on the Brexit thing, I've got a feeling Starmer will renegotiate things so that we're back in the EU in all but name. We might not have a seat around the table but imports and exports I'm pretty certain will be ironed out. Appease the meatheads who got us into this mess by claiming we're still out, but from an economical/logistical standpoint we're 'back in'.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you don't like it then join us in voting reform. We are taking are country back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't like what? I'd rather eat stale dogshiiit than vote for Reform. I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm a centre-left Labour voter.
Oh, and whilst you're at it, what on earth does 'taking our country back' actually mean?
As far as I'm concerned people that use lines like that are just trying to legitimise racism. It's sickening.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
typical woke snowflake scared of standing up to the liberal elite. This is are country, it belongs to us hard working christian patriot's. I will NOT speak muslami and you cannot force me too
posted on 9/5/24
Campaigning on rejoining the EU makes the Tories and Reform somewhat relevant, Labour don’t need that sideshow. I suspect it will be something on the agenda for them the longer they stay in power, however.
posted on 9/5/24
You've been Barry'd. 😂
posted on 9/5/24
comment by Jerry O'Driscoll (U1734)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by Jerry O'Driscoll (U1734)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 minute ago
Government opposition in the Corbyn mould is exactly the reason why we've found ourselves in the absolute shiiiiter with the Tories for as long as we have. His unelectable, protest politics just gave the Tories free reign to pretty much do what they wanted without being held to account by a credible threat. His luke warm stance on the EU I thought was unforgivable. Anyone that believes we're stronger apart than together is frankly stupid but that's another issue.
At least Starmer, on the centre left, is electable. He'll have the power to enforce change which is more than any pure socialist has ever done. There's a bit of Blair in the way he operates in the sense that he doesn't polarise. He recognises the issues with the welfare state but equally doesn't want to shut down enterprise. For too long we've had to listen to voices on the far left and the far right. Can we not just go back towards the middle where rational thinking and progress is usually made?
Oh, and on the Brexit thing, I've got a feeling Starmer will renegotiate things so that we're back in the EU in all but name. We might not have a seat around the table but imports and exports I'm pretty certain will be ironed out. Appease the meatheads who got us into this mess by claiming we're still out, but from an economical/logistical standpoint we're 'back in'.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you don't like it then join us in voting reform. We are taking are country back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't like what? I'd rather eat stale dogshiiit than vote for Reform. I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm a centre-left Labour voter.
Oh, and whilst you're at it, what on earth does 'taking our country back' actually mean?
As far as I'm concerned people that use lines like that are just trying to legitimise racism. It's sickening.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
typical woke snowflake scared of standing up to the liberal elite. This is are country, it belongs to us hard working christian patriot's. I will NOT speak muslami and you cannot force me too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Muslami
posted on 9/5/24
comment by Jerry O'Driscoll (U1734)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by Jerry O'Driscoll (U1734)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 minute ago
Government opposition in the Corbyn mould is exactly the reason why we've found ourselves in the absolute shiiiiter with the Tories for as long as we have. His unelectable, protest politics just gave the Tories free reign to pretty much do what they wanted without being held to account by a credible threat. His luke warm stance on the EU I thought was unforgivable. Anyone that believes we're stronger apart than together is frankly stupid but that's another issue.
At least Starmer, on the centre left, is electable. He'll have the power to enforce change which is more than any pure socialist has ever done. There's a bit of Blair in the way he operates in the sense that he doesn't polarise. He recognises the issues with the welfare state but equally doesn't want to shut down enterprise. For too long we've had to listen to voices on the far left and the far right. Can we not just go back towards the middle where rational thinking and progress is usually made?
Oh, and on the Brexit thing, I've got a feeling Starmer will renegotiate things so that we're back in the EU in all but name. We might not have a seat around the table but imports and exports I'm pretty certain will be ironed out. Appease the meatheads who got us into this mess by claiming we're still out, but from an economical/logistical standpoint we're 'back in'.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you don't like it then join us in voting reform. We are taking are country back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't like what? I'd rather eat stale dogshiiit than vote for Reform. I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm a centre-left Labour voter.
Oh, and whilst you're at it, what on earth does 'taking our country back' actually mean?
As far as I'm concerned people that use lines like that are just trying to legitimise racism. It's sickening.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
typical woke snowflake scared of standing up to the liberal elite. This is are country, it belongs to us hard working christian patriot's. I will NOT speak muslami and you cannot force me too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Inshallah
posted on 9/5/24
What matters most is outcomes. Speaking as someone who feels this temptation myself, it's very easy when you are left-wing and motivated by overturning injustice to drift towards positions that signal maximum ethical purity. But I've seen enough times in my life such very righteous platforms fail to win anything like a governing mandate, opening up a space for authoritarian, anti-egalitarian, chauvinist governments whose success was never inevitable. And I've observed (and rubbed shoulders with) plenty of people on the Left who seem to be more interested in maintaining their own moral purity than helping to bring about the most progressive genuinely feasible outcomes in the real world. I have much less patience as I grow older with the politics of symbolism, that prioritise Taking A Stance! over changing the material conditions of society - whether that's Brexiteer fixation on imperial measurements and blue passports or Corbynite policing of how strongly worded a Labour front bench comment is - about a Tory policy that they don't have the parliamentary numbers to prevent.
In this light, I think there is legitimacy in a Labour leader taking an approach that factors in electability, and I can understand a Labour leader being extremely cautious in the context of a domestic media landscape that is hugely tilted in favour of the political Right. On the other hand, it's possible to pragmatically compromise for the sake of electability to the extent that the *outcomes* of the ensuing government are less progressive than they could have been. This is where I would draw the line indicating 'too far', not "do I agree with every word he says?"
It's hard to objectively place that line, because it's impossible to properly measure the electoral gravity. I personally believe Starmer has been too timid, and that the current danger is that we are heading for a situation where progressive outcomes are constrained by the positions Labour has taken in opposition. I think the battle for the next election is won, and Labour should now focus on positioning itself to maximise its scope to transform the country for the better in government.
But I think the criticisms from the Left often lack the recognition that calculations about electability need to be made, and that making some compromises in order to avoid losing elections doesn't mean Labour and the Tories are the same. Had the current Labour leadership won the 2019 election, the country would look very different right now.
posted on 9/5/24
I've always voted Labour.
Not because they have better politicians, but in the hope they will do their best to help ordinary people. By which I mean working class and middle class.
The conservatives will help businesses and themselves.
posted on 9/5/24
Muslami
posted on 9/5/24
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 23 seconds ago
Starmer isn't stupid.
If he went all left wing then his chances of winning an election diminish. He has to play to the gallery a bit.
----------------------------
Important though to understand who "the gallery" is here. It's not the electorate, who rallied behind a much more radical and progressive set of political and economic ideas in 2017. Corbyn almost certainly would have been elected had it not been for the internal (and external!) sabotage revealed in the leaked Labour documents.
The Gallery is the right wing of the Labour Party and pretty much the entire corporate media spectrum. If we look at polling on public opinion, we see that the majority of public opinion on a range of important issues falls far to the left of the positions most prevalent in media discourse, as well as that of the majority of the PLP (hence why LP members voted Corbyn twice over in record numbers). These issues receive very little coverage in general, and are often completely missing around election times.
Starmer isn't "playing to the gallery" though. He's very much *part* of the gallery.
posted on 9/5/24
I don’t think people are claiming Starmer needs to be some hard left politician to help bring positive change to the country. I think many are just very skeptics of Starmer and the idea he will soften when in power
posted on 9/5/24
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 13 minutes ago
Starmer isn't stupid.
If he went all left wing then his chances of winning an election diminish. He has to play to the gallery a bit.
Whatever we thought of Blair IMO his first few terms in office were the best UK government we've had. Even though I go towards the left wing I realise being towards the centre is a bad thing.
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*Isn't
posted on 9/5/24
It's not the electorate, who rallied behind a much more radical and progressive set of political and economic ideas in 2017. Corbyn almost certainly would have been elected had it not been for the internal (and external!) sabotage revealed in the leaked Labour documents.
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There's absolutely no proof he'd have been elected.
I'm not quite sure why 2017 is constantly heralded as proof Corbyn's policies were popular with the electorate when he still didn't win, and couldn't even beat May who was disliked by both remain and leave voters.
posted on 9/5/24
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
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This is another thing that gripes me with the common person's view of politics. Changing a policy or pledge based on updated information isn't always a negative. I would actually consider it worse if a political leader continues with a pledge after it becomes obvious it won't work or the timelines/funding aren't feasible.
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Right and is dropping pledges because there is apparently 'no money left' a common person view you have a gripe with too?
Power has decided it's Starmer's turn, that's it. He's an inexperienced and economically illiterate leader controlled by people with an ideological hatred of the left, and he's a liar too
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I don't really understand your question to be honest. It would depend on the variables that have affected the decision to drop a pledge I guess.
Based on the rest of your post though, I guess you are just on an ideological rant based on little of substance.
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Well I pointed out he'd dropped pledges and you mentioned you have a gripe with the common person's view of changing policies etc, so I pointed out that the reason he dropped a few of his pledges is because he's subscribing to that pervasive household budget view of government spending post-Covid.
And yes I do have ideological issues with Starmer, you're welcome to dismiss away as you please
posted on 9/5/24
comment by Darren The String Fletcher (U10026)
posted 4 minutes ago
Campaigning on rejoining the EU makes the Tories and Reform somewhat relevant, Labour don’t need that sideshow. I suspect it will be something on the agenda for them the longer they stay in power, however.
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Yeah. The pro-Brexit cause is evidently nowhere near as powerful a driver of votes as it was, but it has very recently been a catalyst for uniting traditional, affluent Tories and working class voters in towns and previous Labour heartlands. That Boris coalition seems to have fallen apart, and I can see why Labour wants to avoid at all costs giving any gifts to the forces that want to reassemble it.
That said (as per the trade-offs described in my long post above) I'd prefer a Labour position that is clear we won't rejoin the EU in the next parliament while opening up a space in which they have a mandate for closer integration. Realistically, it's more likely that a future return to the EU will happen as a culmination of smaller steps, and what will really help the economy (and please the Labour pro-Europe base) is joining the Single Market. This currently looks politically impossible at the moment, and I find that disappointing.
posted on 9/5/24
comment by The Duality of Van (Dijk) (U21747)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Tamwolf (U17286)
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This is another thing that gripes me with the common person's view of politics. Changing a policy or pledge based on updated information isn't always a negative. I would actually consider it worse if a political leader continues with a pledge after it becomes obvious it won't work or the timelines/funding aren't feasible.
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Right and is dropping pledges because there is apparently 'no money left' a common person view you have a gripe with too?
Power has decided it's Starmer's turn, that's it. He's an inexperienced and economically illiterate leader controlled by people with an ideological hatred of the left, and he's a liar too
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I don't really understand your question to be honest. It would depend on the variables that have affected the decision to drop a pledge I guess.
Based on the rest of your post though, I guess you are just on an ideological rant based on little of substance.
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Well I pointed out he'd dropped pledges and you mentioned you have a gripe with the common person's view of changing policies etc, so I pointed out that the reason he dropped a few of his pledges is because he's subscribing to that pervasive household budget view of government spending post-Covid.
And yes I do have ideological issues with Starmer, you're welcome to dismiss away as you please
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Thanks. They have been dismissed.
posted on 9/5/24
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 8 minutes ago
What matters most is outcomes. Speaking as someone who feels this temptation myself, it's very easy when you are left-wing and motivated by overturning injustice to drift towards positions that signal maximum ethical purity. But I've seen enough times in my life such very righteous platforms fail to win anything like a governing mandate, opening up a space for authoritarian, anti-egalitarian, chauvinist governments whose success was never inevitable. And I've observed (and rubbed shoulders with) plenty of people on the Left who seem to be more interested in maintaining their own moral purity than helping to bring about the most progressive genuinely feasible outcomes in the real world. I have much less patience as I grow older with the politics of symbolism, that prioritise Taking A Stance! over changing the material conditions of society - whether that's Brexiteer fixation on imperial measurements and blue passports or Corbynite policing of how strongly worded a Labour front bench comment is - about a Tory policy that they don't have the parliamentary numbers to prevent.
In this light, I think there is legitimacy in a Labour leader taking an approach that factors in electability, and I can understand a Labour leader being extremely cautious in the context of a domestic media landscape that is hugely tilted in favour of the political Right. On the other hand, it's possible to pragmatically compromise for the sake of electability to the extent that the *outcomes* of the ensuing government are less progressive than they could have been. This is where I would draw the line indicating 'too far', not "do I agree with every word he says?"
It's hard to objectively place that line, because it's impossible to properly measure the electoral gravity. I personally believe Starmer has been too timid, and that the current danger is that we are heading for a situation where progressive outcomes are constrained by the positions Labour has taken in opposition. I think the battle for the next election is won, and Labour should now focus on positioning itself to maximise its scope to transform the country for the better in government.
But I think the criticisms from the Left often lack the recognition that calculations about electability need to be made, and that making some compromises in order to avoid losing elections doesn't mean Labour and the Tories are the same. Had the current Labour leadership won the 2019 election, the country would look very different right now.
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Fantastic post, RR.
posted on 9/5/24
Doesn't look promising at the moment. Unfortunately the current Labour party are in the pockets of plenty of awful people.
Not only are they accepting nasty rightwing nutters into the party but they're accepting donations (little better than bribes imo) from the likes of US private medical firms.
posted on 9/5/24
If they came out now and said they wanted to re-join the EU I guarantee the Tories immediately surge +10 in the polls.
All it would achieve is making the 2025 election a repeat of 2019 where it was fought solely on Brexit.
Far better to get into Government and use that time to slowly convince people we should re-join.
..................
Ah, I see. My bad. I was under the impression that Brexit was now thought of by the majority of the UK as a very bad idea.
posted on 9/5/24
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
----------------------------
Important though to understand who "the gallery" is here. It's not the electorate, who rallied behind a much more radical and progressive set of political and economic ideas in 2017. Corbyn almost certainly would have been elected had it not been for the internal (and external!) sabotage revealed in the leaked Labour documents.
The Gallery is the right wing of the Labour Party and pretty much the entire corporate media spectrum. If we look at polling on public opinion, we see that the majority of public opinion on a range of important issues falls far to the left of the positions most prevalent in media discourse, as well as that of the majority of the PLP (hence why LP members voted Corbyn twice over in record numbers). These issues receive very little coverage in general, and are often completely missing around election times.
Starmer isn't "playing to the gallery" though. He's very much *part* of the gallery.
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Hard to move on from this isn't it, still hurts. And now you just get New-New Labour types gurning at you that you lost and fellating Starmer because he was Mr Darcy or whatever
posted on 9/5/24
He's sensible which is a much better than where we've been
posted on 9/5/24
Agree Labour are more centrist under Starmer than they were. I wouldn't call the Tories anything near the centre. Their biggest threat in the GE is looking like being Reform.
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Labour's biggest threat is Farage playing the cvnt again and withdrawing all his candidates in existing Tory seats.
posted on 9/5/24
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 22 seconds ago
If they came out now and said they wanted to re-join the EU I guarantee the Tories immediately surge +10 in the polls.
All it would achieve is making the 2025 election a repeat of 2019 where it was fought solely on Brexit.
Far better to get into Government and use that time to slowly convince people we should re-join.
..................
Ah, I see. My bad. I was under the impression that Brexit was now thought of by the majority of the UK as a very bad idea.
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You've lived away from these shores too long VC. Vast majority of Brits are incredibly stubborn.
The people who voted Brexit still believe in it but just think it was handled badly. They haven't become remainers all of a sudden unfortunately. Some who were on the fence maybe have but I'd say there's still a very much anti EU feeling in many parts of the UK.
My parents both voted leave and me and my brother were remain. We had some very interesting debates that's for sure.
posted on 9/5/24
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 1 minute ago
If they came out now and said they wanted to re-join the EU I guarantee the Tories immediately surge +10 in the polls.
All it would achieve is making the 2025 election a repeat of 2019 where it was fought solely on Brexit.
Far better to get into Government and use that time to slowly convince people we should re-join.
..................
Ah, I see. My bad. I was under the impression that Brexit was now thought of by the majority of the UK as a very bad idea.
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Think the majority of Brexit supporters are too embarrassed to publicly continue to back Brexit, similar to a lot of people that will vote Tory at the upcoming election.
Somewhere, deep down, they know it's a disgrace but will do it anyway.
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