Definitely not Vlahovic, I’d imagine on top of not being that great he’d expect wages similar to what he’s currently on. Luiz would be a better swap but I’d probably prefer if we could just get cash for Sancho.
Will be interesting to see how David does in another league, he’s got good numbers. I wonder how much his agent got in the end?
Actually the more I think about it the more Luiz sounds like a solid purchase and a huge upgrade on Sancho. Press resistant, very good range of passing and intelligent on the ball with good energy and proven in the PL in a double pivot. Basically exactly the sort of profile we need in midfield. Maybe a little hot headed but maybe we’re lacking in bite?
I heard this morning that we have turned down the chance to sign Jhon Duran due to his wages. Now The Athletic are reporting that he is heading to Turkey to sign for Fener. How the feck can they afford his wages?
Vlahovic is massively overrated and over paid.
His top output in a season for Juve is 16 league goals. It's not brilliant for what anyone would be expected to pay for him or to him.
Who knows whether Vlahovic would fit seamlessly into our attack and enjoy the best years of his career at United. But you'd need that to be a high probability if you were going to invest a first choice striker salary in him. If we're doing that, we're essentially blocking out a big chunk of budget for 4-5 years. Way too risky, in my view.
Douglas Luiz is a really talented player. The concerns there: firstly, is he crocked? Due to muscle injury he only played 19 league games last season. Secondly, is he the profile we need? Given that Bruno is likely to play CM this year, and Mainoo is our second most talented midfielder, and neither they nor Casemiro are blessed with pace, what we lack most is a CM who can close down space very quickly and run all day: a physical monster who is an upgrade on Ugarte. If Luiz can be relied upon to not break down and if he can partner Bruno, then great. But we're very unlikely to afford two CMs this season, so whoever we bring in needs to be the right fit.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 14 minutes ago
Vlahovic is massively overrated and over paid.
His top output in a season for Juve is 16 league goals. It's not brilliant for what anyone would be expected to pay for him or to him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeh, if you look at minutes played, he is basically a 1 in 2 striker. And he gets a decent amount of assists too. He has a goal involvement every 137 minutes at Juve. Or every 1.5 games if you prefer it that way.
Not great, not terrible and no guarantee he could adapt to the PL.
Bruno in CM isn’t the solution for me, he’s too wasteful and still tries to be the creator when we need the CM to be better at winning the ball and keeping possession. The EL final perfectly illustrated why he’s wasted deeper imo. People say his stats are decent playing deeper but we were useless in midfield all season because we were never able to take any sort of control.
On paper I think a double pivot of Luiz and Ugarte could work, you get the tireless running, pressing and ball winning from Ugarte and the control, possession and progression from Luiz with Bruno further forward where he can cause more damage.
Maybe we can spend the Sancho money on a better CM but if we’re left with the only option of swapping him it might be the best option we have.
I’d take Douglas Luiz but not Vlahovic.
No thanks.
Stick to our targets. If Juve want him that much, they can pay.
Assuming we get Mbuemo, I feel that going for a third forward should not be our highest priority. Having two specialist inside forwards playing in the position that Ruben's formation demands is a huge upgrade. I think that Zirkzee, Rasmus and even Bruno could supplement Cunha and Mbuemo in a front three.
Like others, my biggest concern is that our midfield needs to be better at retaining and winning the ball. Unless Ugarte improves a lot, we need another midfielder. I much prefer Bruno in a more advanced position. A midfield of Mainoo and a new DM would be my favoured option.
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 1 hour, 20 minutes ago
Bruno in CM isn’t the solution for me, he’s too wasteful and still tries to be the creator when we need the CM to be better at winning the ball and keeping possession. The EL final perfectly illustrated why he’s wasted deeper imo. People say his stats are decent playing deeper but we were useless in midfield all season because we were never able to take any sort of control.
On paper I think a double pivot of Luiz and Ugarte could work, you get the tireless running, pressing and ball winning from Ugarte and the control, possession and progression from Luiz with Bruno further forward where he can cause more damage.
Maybe we can spend the Sancho money on a better CM but if we’re left with the only option of swapping him it might be the best option we have.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think people get a little bit obsessed with our control of the ball, particularly in midfield, tbh.
Yes, gamestates, etc. but we had more of the ball than 14 other teams in the PL last season. Spurs were just ahead of us in fifth, and behind us were all of Newcastle, Villa, Forest (all playing European football next season) and Brighton. We had plenty of the ball, we just didn't do enough with it.
We are never going to be City or Arsenal under Amorim in the pass completion metric, because (thankfully) Amorimball doesn't work like that; it's closer to Klopp's game in philosophy: get the ball moving proactively, get it into the final third, and if you lose it, you win it back. It's sustained pressure and ball recovery over careful domination of the football at all costs.
I think we'll start the season with Bruno alongside a hopefully refreshed and sharp Ugarte, with Casemiro, Mainoo and Mount ready to step in. Would I like a more rangey and dominant CDM, yep I would. But even with Cunha and (I assume) Mbeumo in, I wouldn't put it in our top three priorities, personally.
comment by Little Steve (U23271)
posted 16 minutes ago
No thanks.
Stick to our targets. If Juve want him that much, they can pay.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Would take Welbeck instead of Vlahovic
I worry Mainoo lacks the fitness and speed needed in Amorim's midfield. I also think he's still developing and making him a regular starter isn't what he needs right now. We only bought Ugarte less than a year ago, don't think we can afford to give up on him already, yes he is lacking in some areas but I think you pair him with the right player and you have a decent midfield.
At Villa Luiz was paired with Kamara who isn't the most technical but it worked because they complimented each other and Kamara's main role was to win the ball and move it on.
"Yes, gamestates, etc. but we had more of the ball than 14 other teams in the PL last season."
Yes but our problem with Bruno deep is that he's still trying to play those killer balls which don't work as well when he's deeper and we get overrun with his careless passing (like someone said last season, he's basically our Gerard, great in many ways but also costing us in other ways and we try to shoehorn him on because he's so important without thinking about what he actually provided in a deeper role). I'm not talking about possession for the sake of possession, I mean control and using it well which we didn't do last season, we were terrible at it. If you have a player like Luiz (I'm not claiming he's the answer btw) you have a player who's better at passing and making the right passes at the right time, one who isn't concerned with making the hollywood passes and doesn't give the ball away cheaply.
One thing that’s a goddamn necessity is a striker who can score regularly. Is that Vlahovic? Probably not but it would be great to have a striker who wins us games on his own when we’re playing badly. Most teams have that but us.
I think people get a little bit obsessed with our control of the ball, particularly in midfield, tbh.
********************************
There is worrying about control and the effect of careless plays. That is why Bruno in midfield is a massive risk. He is a massive risk in every position tbh but his best position in this formation requires a lot more safety with the ball because its literally a counter attack break away especially when we are pushing for a goal we cannot get from our stupid strikers
If he could drive with the ball like Amad and Cunha, he'll be playing there. If he was more careful with the ball we could maybe sacrifice his lack with his incredible creativity build around him. If his shooting percentage was a bit better, heck we would have sacrificed him there. But alas the most creative player on our team is one of the most flawed which most United fans should be used to now. A good squad with a pile of overpaid flaws.
Yeah a striker is still essential but I just don't think Vlahovic is the answer.
We all know money is tight this summer and we need to do some creative spending. If the only way we can move on Sancho is with a swap then I do think Luiz is a player who can offer us something we need and is clearly a huge upgrade on Sancho. We need to get rid of a few more players and hopefully whatever money we make from that can go towards a striker?
Tbf to Bruno I’d imagine a large percentage of him losing the ball is passing to Hojlund.
Bruno is going to feast on the runs and ability of Mbeumo and Cunha to get inside/behind their defenders.
The bigger concern with the midfield is how Amoron wants them to he headless chickens out of possession.
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 49 minutes ago
The bigger concern with the midfield is how Amoron wants them to he headless chickens out of possession.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Amoron
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 1 hour, 15 minutes ago
I think people get a little bit obsessed with our control of the ball, particularly in midfield, tbh.
********************************
There is worrying about control and the effect of careless plays. That is why Bruno in midfield is a massive risk. He is a massive risk in every position tbh but his best position in this formation requires a lot more safety with the ball because its literally a counter attack break away especially when we are pushing for a goal we cannot get from our stupid strikers
If he could drive with the ball like Amad and Cunha, he'll be playing there. If he was more careful with the ball we could maybe sacrifice his lack with his incredible creativity build around him. If his shooting percentage was a bit better, heck we would have sacrificed him there. But alas the most creative player on our team is one of the most flawed which most United fans should be used to now. A good squad with a pile of overpaid flaws.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You keep resurfacing making this exact point and then someone points out that he has been much more disciplined in his use of the ball under Amorim, and he doesn't give it away statistically that often (particularly when playing in midfield). You don't have a factual retort to that, but then you pop up again making the claim verbatim.
1982, whether you're right or not about the demerits of playing Bruno in midfield, it looks as though that's what's happening, so I'd maintain if we're looking at a CM, he should be able to cover ground fast, for 90 minutes, as a prerequisite. It's interesting that Rosso reckons we could be better positioned with our current options than common wisdom suggests.
As for Mainoo, I wouldn't say he's too good to sell, but for a club that's serious about having the academy at the centre of its culture, he's too talented to jettison this young and primarily because of profile fit. I'd really like to see Amorim prove his tactical imagination and rework things to get more value from his skill set, and so his relative lack of pace isn't too exposed.
I mean if we’re going to see Bruno in midfield there’s nothing I can do to change that, but I’d be concerned about how it’ll work. Would love it if our existing midfield options were all capable of being enough but I dont think they are.
If hypothetically our only option with Sancho is a swap with Juve would you do it? From reports, both Napoli and Fenerbahce have pulled out of any move because of Sancho’s wages and I haven’t heard of any other clubs interested? This summer won’t be about getting the perfect players in and we’ll need to take some risks but any chance of getting rid of Sancho, Rashford, Antony and Casemiro this summer we should be all over it.
1982, yeah, nothing stopping anyone from sharing what they think we should do - I was just putting out there what I think in the context of what kind of player we'd need next to the CM Amorim seems to be planning on deploying.
As for your hypothesis... I'm not really sure. What I don't want is to solve the Sancho problem by taking on another player we won't get much value from, and whose allocated wages over 4-5 years can't be invested in someone we actually need. Especially as Sancho's contract ends next season. We want to sell him to get his wages off the books and to have some cash to help fund players we need, right? If we end up with swapping one player we don't want for a player we don't massively need, and swap salary commitments for one year for salary over a much longer period, the value of the transaction looks a lot less attractive. I'd probably take Luiz over Vlahovic on the basis that the salary will be lower and if we're committing serious budget to a striker, it needs to be someone very good. And Luiz is a good player, obviously. But I'd rather sell Sancho if that's an option, and have the freedom to invest the funds in the most efficient place.
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Jonathan David to Juve. Sancho next?
Page 1 of 3
posted on 2/7/25
Definitely not Vlahovic, I’d imagine on top of not being that great he’d expect wages similar to what he’s currently on. Luiz would be a better swap but I’d probably prefer if we could just get cash for Sancho.
Will be interesting to see how David does in another league, he’s got good numbers. I wonder how much his agent got in the end?
posted on 2/7/25
Actually the more I think about it the more Luiz sounds like a solid purchase and a huge upgrade on Sancho. Press resistant, very good range of passing and intelligent on the ball with good energy and proven in the PL in a double pivot. Basically exactly the sort of profile we need in midfield. Maybe a little hot headed but maybe we’re lacking in bite?
posted on 2/7/25
I heard this morning that we have turned down the chance to sign Jhon Duran due to his wages. Now The Athletic are reporting that he is heading to Turkey to sign for Fener. How the feck can they afford his wages?
posted on 2/7/25
Vlahovic is massively overrated and over paid.
His top output in a season for Juve is 16 league goals. It's not brilliant for what anyone would be expected to pay for him or to him.
posted on 2/7/25
Who knows whether Vlahovic would fit seamlessly into our attack and enjoy the best years of his career at United. But you'd need that to be a high probability if you were going to invest a first choice striker salary in him. If we're doing that, we're essentially blocking out a big chunk of budget for 4-5 years. Way too risky, in my view.
Douglas Luiz is a really talented player. The concerns there: firstly, is he crocked? Due to muscle injury he only played 19 league games last season. Secondly, is he the profile we need? Given that Bruno is likely to play CM this year, and Mainoo is our second most talented midfielder, and neither they nor Casemiro are blessed with pace, what we lack most is a CM who can close down space very quickly and run all day: a physical monster who is an upgrade on Ugarte. If Luiz can be relied upon to not break down and if he can partner Bruno, then great. But we're very unlikely to afford two CMs this season, so whoever we bring in needs to be the right fit.
posted on 2/7/25
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 14 minutes ago
Vlahovic is massively overrated and over paid.
His top output in a season for Juve is 16 league goals. It's not brilliant for what anyone would be expected to pay for him or to him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeh, if you look at minutes played, he is basically a 1 in 2 striker. And he gets a decent amount of assists too. He has a goal involvement every 137 minutes at Juve. Or every 1.5 games if you prefer it that way.
Not great, not terrible and no guarantee he could adapt to the PL.
posted on 2/7/25
Bruno in CM isn’t the solution for me, he’s too wasteful and still tries to be the creator when we need the CM to be better at winning the ball and keeping possession. The EL final perfectly illustrated why he’s wasted deeper imo. People say his stats are decent playing deeper but we were useless in midfield all season because we were never able to take any sort of control.
On paper I think a double pivot of Luiz and Ugarte could work, you get the tireless running, pressing and ball winning from Ugarte and the control, possession and progression from Luiz with Bruno further forward where he can cause more damage.
Maybe we can spend the Sancho money on a better CM but if we’re left with the only option of swapping him it might be the best option we have.
posted on 2/7/25
I’d take Douglas Luiz but not Vlahovic.
posted on 2/7/25
No thanks.
Stick to our targets. If Juve want him that much, they can pay.
posted on 2/7/25
Assuming we get Mbuemo, I feel that going for a third forward should not be our highest priority. Having two specialist inside forwards playing in the position that Ruben's formation demands is a huge upgrade. I think that Zirkzee, Rasmus and even Bruno could supplement Cunha and Mbuemo in a front three.
Like others, my biggest concern is that our midfield needs to be better at retaining and winning the ball. Unless Ugarte improves a lot, we need another midfielder. I much prefer Bruno in a more advanced position. A midfield of Mainoo and a new DM would be my favoured option.
posted on 2/7/25
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 1 hour, 20 minutes ago
Bruno in CM isn’t the solution for me, he’s too wasteful and still tries to be the creator when we need the CM to be better at winning the ball and keeping possession. The EL final perfectly illustrated why he’s wasted deeper imo. People say his stats are decent playing deeper but we were useless in midfield all season because we were never able to take any sort of control.
On paper I think a double pivot of Luiz and Ugarte could work, you get the tireless running, pressing and ball winning from Ugarte and the control, possession and progression from Luiz with Bruno further forward where he can cause more damage.
Maybe we can spend the Sancho money on a better CM but if we’re left with the only option of swapping him it might be the best option we have.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think people get a little bit obsessed with our control of the ball, particularly in midfield, tbh.
Yes, gamestates, etc. but we had more of the ball than 14 other teams in the PL last season. Spurs were just ahead of us in fifth, and behind us were all of Newcastle, Villa, Forest (all playing European football next season) and Brighton. We had plenty of the ball, we just didn't do enough with it.
We are never going to be City or Arsenal under Amorim in the pass completion metric, because (thankfully) Amorimball doesn't work like that; it's closer to Klopp's game in philosophy: get the ball moving proactively, get it into the final third, and if you lose it, you win it back. It's sustained pressure and ball recovery over careful domination of the football at all costs.
I think we'll start the season with Bruno alongside a hopefully refreshed and sharp Ugarte, with Casemiro, Mainoo and Mount ready to step in. Would I like a more rangey and dominant CDM, yep I would. But even with Cunha and (I assume) Mbeumo in, I wouldn't put it in our top three priorities, personally.
posted on 2/7/25
comment by Little Steve (U23271)
posted 16 minutes ago
No thanks.
Stick to our targets. If Juve want him that much, they can pay.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Would take Welbeck instead of Vlahovic
posted on 2/7/25
I worry Mainoo lacks the fitness and speed needed in Amorim's midfield. I also think he's still developing and making him a regular starter isn't what he needs right now. We only bought Ugarte less than a year ago, don't think we can afford to give up on him already, yes he is lacking in some areas but I think you pair him with the right player and you have a decent midfield.
At Villa Luiz was paired with Kamara who isn't the most technical but it worked because they complimented each other and Kamara's main role was to win the ball and move it on.
posted on 2/7/25
"Yes, gamestates, etc. but we had more of the ball than 14 other teams in the PL last season."
Yes but our problem with Bruno deep is that he's still trying to play those killer balls which don't work as well when he's deeper and we get overrun with his careless passing (like someone said last season, he's basically our Gerard, great in many ways but also costing us in other ways and we try to shoehorn him on because he's so important without thinking about what he actually provided in a deeper role). I'm not talking about possession for the sake of possession, I mean control and using it well which we didn't do last season, we were terrible at it. If you have a player like Luiz (I'm not claiming he's the answer btw) you have a player who's better at passing and making the right passes at the right time, one who isn't concerned with making the hollywood passes and doesn't give the ball away cheaply.
posted on 2/7/25
One thing that’s a goddamn necessity is a striker who can score regularly. Is that Vlahovic? Probably not but it would be great to have a striker who wins us games on his own when we’re playing badly. Most teams have that but us.
posted on 2/7/25
I think people get a little bit obsessed with our control of the ball, particularly in midfield, tbh.
********************************
There is worrying about control and the effect of careless plays. That is why Bruno in midfield is a massive risk. He is a massive risk in every position tbh but his best position in this formation requires a lot more safety with the ball because its literally a counter attack break away especially when we are pushing for a goal we cannot get from our stupid strikers
If he could drive with the ball like Amad and Cunha, he'll be playing there. If he was more careful with the ball we could maybe sacrifice his lack with his incredible creativity build around him. If his shooting percentage was a bit better, heck we would have sacrificed him there. But alas the most creative player on our team is one of the most flawed which most United fans should be used to now. A good squad with a pile of overpaid flaws.
posted on 2/7/25
Yeah a striker is still essential but I just don't think Vlahovic is the answer.
We all know money is tight this summer and we need to do some creative spending. If the only way we can move on Sancho is with a swap then I do think Luiz is a player who can offer us something we need and is clearly a huge upgrade on Sancho. We need to get rid of a few more players and hopefully whatever money we make from that can go towards a striker?
posted on 2/7/25
Tbf to Bruno I’d imagine a large percentage of him losing the ball is passing to Hojlund.
posted on 2/7/25
Bruno is going to feast on the runs and ability of Mbeumo and Cunha to get inside/behind their defenders.
posted on 2/7/25
The bigger concern with the midfield is how Amoron wants them to he headless chickens out of possession.
posted on 2/7/25
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 49 minutes ago
The bigger concern with the midfield is how Amoron wants them to he headless chickens out of possession.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Amoron
posted on 2/7/25
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 1 hour, 15 minutes ago
I think people get a little bit obsessed with our control of the ball, particularly in midfield, tbh.
********************************
There is worrying about control and the effect of careless plays. That is why Bruno in midfield is a massive risk. He is a massive risk in every position tbh but his best position in this formation requires a lot more safety with the ball because its literally a counter attack break away especially when we are pushing for a goal we cannot get from our stupid strikers
If he could drive with the ball like Amad and Cunha, he'll be playing there. If he was more careful with the ball we could maybe sacrifice his lack with his incredible creativity build around him. If his shooting percentage was a bit better, heck we would have sacrificed him there. But alas the most creative player on our team is one of the most flawed which most United fans should be used to now. A good squad with a pile of overpaid flaws.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You keep resurfacing making this exact point and then someone points out that he has been much more disciplined in his use of the ball under Amorim, and he doesn't give it away statistically that often (particularly when playing in midfield). You don't have a factual retort to that, but then you pop up again making the claim verbatim.
posted on 2/7/25
1982, whether you're right or not about the demerits of playing Bruno in midfield, it looks as though that's what's happening, so I'd maintain if we're looking at a CM, he should be able to cover ground fast, for 90 minutes, as a prerequisite. It's interesting that Rosso reckons we could be better positioned with our current options than common wisdom suggests.
As for Mainoo, I wouldn't say he's too good to sell, but for a club that's serious about having the academy at the centre of its culture, he's too talented to jettison this young and primarily because of profile fit. I'd really like to see Amorim prove his tactical imagination and rework things to get more value from his skill set, and so his relative lack of pace isn't too exposed.
posted on 2/7/25
I mean if we’re going to see Bruno in midfield there’s nothing I can do to change that, but I’d be concerned about how it’ll work. Would love it if our existing midfield options were all capable of being enough but I dont think they are.
If hypothetically our only option with Sancho is a swap with Juve would you do it? From reports, both Napoli and Fenerbahce have pulled out of any move because of Sancho’s wages and I haven’t heard of any other clubs interested? This summer won’t be about getting the perfect players in and we’ll need to take some risks but any chance of getting rid of Sancho, Rashford, Antony and Casemiro this summer we should be all over it.
posted on 2/7/25
1982, yeah, nothing stopping anyone from sharing what they think we should do - I was just putting out there what I think in the context of what kind of player we'd need next to the CM Amorim seems to be planning on deploying.
As for your hypothesis... I'm not really sure. What I don't want is to solve the Sancho problem by taking on another player we won't get much value from, and whose allocated wages over 4-5 years can't be invested in someone we actually need. Especially as Sancho's contract ends next season. We want to sell him to get his wages off the books and to have some cash to help fund players we need, right? If we end up with swapping one player we don't want for a player we don't massively need, and swap salary commitments for one year for salary over a much longer period, the value of the transaction looks a lot less attractive. I'd probably take Luiz over Vlahovic on the basis that the salary will be lower and if we're committing serious budget to a striker, it needs to be someone very good. And Luiz is a good player, obviously. But I'd rather sell Sancho if that's an option, and have the freedom to invest the funds in the most efficient place.
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