Tom Heaton is gonna be in goal vs Arsenal by the looks of it. Onana is already error prone let alone if he barely has a pre season and his heads all over the place with transfer rumours too, Bayindir hasn’t looked as good as Heaton in pre season, Heaton is old and obviously won’t have the reflexes of the other two but our defence has looked more solid and calm with him there.
I don’t think any signings we make from next week onwards will be in the starting line up vs Arsenal tbh, Šeško, a GK or any others that may come.
He has a year left on his contract. I doubt they will let him out on loan. They signed him for free and he is reportedly on a big wage packet.
TBH he was great in thr CL but is seem lacking jn certain departments and hasn't been great in some matches. He also isn't the ball playing GK that the modern keeper is.
PSG are close to signing a new keeper in Lille’s Lucas Chevalier who will replace Donnarumma. And Donnarumma could see out the final season of hia contract while competing with Chevalier.
I don't think Onana is as bad as some do.
Keepers and strikers rely on confidence, they need the backing of the club and crowd to thrive.
Why Donnarumma would be an upgrade on Onana
By Sky Sports' Peter Smith
Gianluigi Donnarumma would be a massive signing for Man Utd - both literally and figuratively.
The 6ft5in Italy shot-stopper is an enormous presence in the goalmouth and is regarded as one of the best goalkeepers in the business.
It feels like Donnarumma has gone to even greater heights this season, playing a crucial role in Paris St-Germain's incredible season.
Commanding in Ligue 1, a shootout star against Liverpool in the Champions League and formidable with five clean sheets in eight games at the Club World Cup, Donnarumma would be a huge coup for United if they could get a deal done.
Andre Onana has been in the spotlight since he had that let-off against Wolves in his Premier League debut and uncertainty about the current United keeper has fed the nervousness and lack of conviction about Ruben Amorim's backline.
His total of eight errors leading to goals since the start of 2023/24 is more than any other goalkeeper in the Premier League. Donnarumma would be a substantial upgrade.
His total of eight errors leading to goals since the start of 2023/24 is more than any other goalkeeper in the Premier League.
---------------------------------------------------
I tried to find a source for that stat, as it didn't tally with what I've seen in the past. Turned out it was counting all competitions, so the Onana stats cover far more games than most of the other keepers he's being compared with (who didn't have European football and long cup runs). That's not to brush under the carpet Onana's disastrous impact on our CL group stage last season, but it's journalistically shabby to massage the stats in a way that doesn't compare apples with apples in order to make a sensationalist point, where a valid and slightly more nuanced argument could have been put forward.
My view: the errors are a concern, and therefore an upgrade would be a good. But snatching at any keeper based on a panicked assumption that we're fuсked if we don't get rid of Onana would be very risky. In the PL last season I believe the stats suggested he made three errors leading to goals. They also suggested that he was about average among PL keepers in terms of keeping the ball out of the net. This tells us a couple of things. Firstly, the next keeper could be worse than Onana. Secondly, even if the next keeper is a massive upgrade and doesn't make a single mistake all season (and let's remember that even the best keepers have the occasional howler), it's not going to make a substantial (+10) impact to our goal difference or points total. In terms of priorities, if we can add a CM whose physicality and control of possession means we're not exposing the defence as often and conceding fewer shots, that's going to be much more transformative. And above that, our lack of chances created and goals scored was by a margin the bigger problem than goals conceded last season.
375k a week is what I've been reading he asked PSG for. They refused. Can't see us entertaining anyone on those wages again for a while, especially a GK.
If it's too pricey for a football club backed by a sovereign state then it might be a clue that it's not a deal we can do either.
Saudi Arabia for half a mill a week most likely.
As for Donnarumma specifically, I'm a bit wary of investing in him as the long-term solution. Strikes me as the old practice of going after a big name. When he emerged he was Best Keeper in the World TM and many of us still think of him in those terms, because we're not watching closely and probably a lot of us (certainly me included) aren't as keenly interested in goalkeeper technique as outfield players. If his performance over time warranted that reputation as one of the finest, I suspect PSG would have broken the bank to keep him. And I suspect elite teams across the continent would be competing for his signature as his contract runs down.
You might argue we just need him to be better than Onana. But I think at this point of huge financial limitations, we need every transfer not just to represent short-term improvements, but to satisfy our medium-term sporting needs and to provide as much value for investment as possible. The idea of signing a big name, presumably on big wages, who is taking a step down from an elite club that seems happy to let him go raises a lot of questions as to whether he fits those criteria. What I don't want is a four or five-year financial salary commitment to a keeper who is in certain aspects not what we need, which limits what we can invest and our ability to upgrade until we have shifted him.
So with absolutely no commentary on their respective ability levels, I feel a lot more comfortable with the links to the apparently highly talented young Belgian keeper, Lammens, as a number two who can immediately push Onana for the starting spot. If there's a Saudi offer for Onana and we can bring in Donnarumma on similar wages and negligible net spend, that's a different matter.
Agree with RR
The finances around any deal just don't work for us. If he was willing to lower his wage demands he'd just stay at PSG too surely? Guaranteed trophies and CL football.
We shouldn't be offering any more 350K + a week contracts out right now and least of all to a goalkeeper even though he's a vast improvement on Onana.
We did the same thing with DDG and it ended up being a disaster for us.
Simply going by the games which I've seen over the past 2 seasons, Onana simply does not give me a 'good feel' for what I want in a goalie. It's not very scientific, and I accept that not everything is his fault and there's a lot of pressure on whoever was in goals. Given that we had the likes of Schmeichel and VDS, against whom it is not fair to compare, but even De Gea at his peak, whilst having certain limitations, felt better.
Onana reminds me of a poor man's Barthez, who for me showed that you can win things without being a great goalie - sadly we don't have the team that surrounded Barthez, so we really need someone who is more solid and reliable.
I still think that Amorim could turn out good, that Rasmus could be a decent player (may not happen with us), but i just don't have that feeling with Onana.
I don't know if Donn' is the answer, but there must be a better option out there
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 34 minutes ago
Simply going by the games which I've seen over the past 2 seasons, Onana simply does not give me a 'good feel' for what I want in a goalie. It's not very scientific, and I accept that not everything is his fault and there's a lot of pressure on whoever was in goals. Given that we had the likes of Schmeichel and VDS, against whom it is not fair to compare, but even De Gea at his peak, whilst having certain limitations, felt better.
Onana reminds me of a poor man's Barthez, who for me showed that you can win things without being a great goalie - sadly we don't have the team that surrounded Barthez, so we really need someone who is more solid and reliable.
I still think that Amorim could turn out good, that Rasmus could be a decent player (may not happen with us), but i just don't have that feeling with Onana.
I don't know if Donn' is the answer, but there must be a better option out there
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Objectively, Onana hasn't been great. But it seems to me that the reason so many of our fans think replacing him is an absolute priority is because he gives them the willies, kind of how you've described. Personally, I'm in favour of being led by hard facts rather than vibes.
I don't think Onana is a bad keeper at all. He showed at Inter he was very capable and he also had a run of form for United last year where I thought he was much more consistent.
Much like Kinsang above though it's the feeling I get from him that worries me. That may be harsh but it's how I see it. His mistakes, when they come, do seem to come at crucial times and also I don't think we can pinpoint many games where he's saved us with a great performance. Allison at Liverpool is a great example of a keeper that does come up with some match winning performances. What he does have though in fairness is a better forward line that can take advantage of that.
Perhaps Onana will get better as the team gets better. I hope he does! I think it says a lot though that at present I'd 'trust' Heaton more in goal than the other two!
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 34 minutes ago
Simply going by the games which I've seen over the past 2 seasons, Onana simply does not give me a 'good feel' for what I want in a goalie. It's not very scientific, and I accept that not everything is his fault and there's a lot of pressure on whoever was in goals. Given that we had the likes of Schmeichel and VDS, against whom it is not fair to compare, but even De Gea at his peak, whilst having certain limitations, felt better.
Onana reminds me of a poor man's Barthez, who for me showed that you can win things without being a great goalie - sadly we don't have the team that surrounded Barthez, so we really need someone who is more solid and reliable.
I still think that Amorim could turn out good, that Rasmus could be a decent player (may not happen with us), but i just don't have that feeling with Onana.
I don't know if Donn' is the answer, but there must be a better option out there
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Objectively, Onana hasn't been great. But it seems to me that the reason so many of our fans think replacing him is an absolute priority is because he gives them the willies, kind of how you've described. Personally, I'm in favour of being led by hard facts rather than vibes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe I am simple, but I just say what I see in games. Regardless of position, you just look at some players and think, yep, we've got a good one here, or not as the case may be. Sadly we've not had that many good ones in recent times.
We often hear how a good goalie can save you so many points per season. Obviously the defence plays a part in that also, but does anyone have confidence that Onana does that for us? So when I see Onana play, with my own eyes, I'm not seeing a great goalie.
If we had our pick of all the goalies in the EPL right now, how many would get picked above Onana? I think that answers whether we need someone else or not.
Maybe hard facts and stats suggest otherwise, but I find it difficult to believe that replacing Onana shouldn't be considered a priority.
kinsang, I hope my comment didn't come across as condescending.
Another way of putting it is that I think goalkeeping errors are magnified in our memories because of the consequences. Maybe strikers who miss good chances are the only comparison. E.g. the idea that Andy Cole needed loads of shots to score still haunts his legacy, despite the fact that he's objectively one of the best strikers in the history of the PL. If midfielder's passing or closing down is 2% worse than the level you'd like it to be, that underperformance isn't going to be as visible to fans, and if he scores a wondergoal, that's going to stick in the human memory far more, even though the impact of that goal is a lot less significant than the impact of him delivering less control and less defensive cover than the team needs.
So I think Onana on the basis of a handful of errors (which happened in greater number in the first half of his first season) has given our human brains a lot of very stark impressions that have defined the popular view of him. In the meantime, he's saving overall a similar % of shots to his peers, doing an average job in terms of goals prevented/conceded over the course of the season, in the context of playing for a team that's unstable, fragile in confidence, playing under stress, and prone to defensive lapses that mean he's facing more shots than a lot of the better keepers in the league. I think a bit of hysteria has built up around him to the extent that with just about every goal we concede, fans are jumping to blame Onana. And of course any save he makes 'he ought to have made'.
Good players (including keepers) are more prone to making errors when they are put into pressurised and chaotic situations, and especially constant stress. Allisson (an objectively great keeper) made a really bad mistake against Arsenal in Klopp's final season - a game where Liverpool were really under the cosh in a way they rarely are. My concern is that if we were to replace Onana at the expense of making investments that improve our control and defensive robustness, we'll end up with a potentially slightly better keeper still facing an elevated level of defensive chaos, and he too will underperform. I think we win more points next season with Onana + a team in front of him that gives up fewer chances, keeps possession better and scores the first goal more often, as opposed to AN Other keeper and the same midfield.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 hours, 25 minutes ago
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 34 minutes ago
Simply going by the games which I've seen over the past 2 seasons, Onana simply does not give me a 'good feel' for what I want in a goalie. It's not very scientific, and I accept that not everything is his fault and there's a lot of pressure on whoever was in goals. Given that we had the likes of Schmeichel and VDS, against whom it is not fair to compare, but even De Gea at his peak, whilst having certain limitations, felt better.
Onana reminds me of a poor man's Barthez, who for me showed that you can win things without being a great goalie - sadly we don't have the team that surrounded Barthez, so we really need someone who is more solid and reliable.
I still think that Amorim could turn out good, that Rasmus could be a decent player (may not happen with us), but i just don't have that feeling with Onana.
I don't know if Donn' is the answer, but there must be a better option out there
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Objectively, Onana hasn't been great. But it seems to me that the reason so many of our fans think replacing him is an absolute priority is because he gives them the willies, kind of how you've described. Personally, I'm in favour of being led by hard facts rather than vibes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No. It's that he gave our DEFENDERS the willies. Every corner we face, our defence is all over the place and I'm sure a lot of that has to do with the lack of confidence in what's behind them.
comment by Macari's chip shop (U13341)
posted 20 minutes ago
No. It's that he gave our DEFENDERS the willies. Every corner we face, our defence is all over the place and I'm sure a lot of that has to do with the lack of confidence in what's behind them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Was it Onana's fault when our defenders kept getting the willies in 2022/23 as well?
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Macari's chip shop (U13341)
posted 20 minutes ago
No. It's that he gave our DEFENDERS the willies. Every corner we face, our defence is all over the place and I'm sure a lot of that has to do with the lack of confidence in what's behind them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Was it Onana's fault when our defenders kept getting the willies in 2022/23 as well?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, that was De Gea's!
comment by Macari's chip shop (U13341)
posted 20 minutes ago
No. It's that he gave our DEFENDERS the willies. Every corner we face, our defence is all over the place and I'm sure a lot of that has to do with the lack of confidence in what's behind them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Was it Onana's fault when our defenders kept getting the willies in 2022/23 as well?
—
Yes. They probably heard a rumor Andre on-no-fack-no was coming and freaked out.
We signed a ball playing goalkeeper and put him behind players scared of touching the ball.
I think Onana probably won’t recover, but I do wonder what damage we did to his confidence in the first place.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 4 hours, 49 minutes ago
kinsang, I hope my comment didn't come across as condescending.
Another way of putting it is that I think goalkeeping errors are magnified in our memories because of the consequences. Maybe strikers who miss good chances are the only comparison. E.g. the idea that Andy Cole needed loads of shots to score still haunts his legacy, despite the fact that he's objectively one of the best strikers in the history of the PL. If midfielder's passing or closing down is 2% worse than the level you'd like it to be, that underperformance isn't going to be as visible to fans, and if he scores a wondergoal, that's going to stick in the human memory far more, even though the impact of that goal is a lot less significant than the impact of him delivering less control and less defensive cover than the team needs.
So I think Onana on the basis of a handful of errors (which happened in greater number in the first half of his first season) has given our human brains a lot of very stark impressions that have defined the popular view of him. In the meantime, he's saving overall a similar % of shots to his peers, doing an average job in terms of goals prevented/conceded over the course of the season, in the context of playing for a team that's unstable, fragile in confidence, playing under stress, and prone to defensive lapses that mean he's facing more shots than a lot of the better keepers in the league. I think a bit of hysteria has built up around him to the extent that with just about every goal we concede, fans are jumping to blame Onana. And of course any save he makes 'he ought to have made'.
Good players (including keepers) are more prone to making errors when they are put into pressurised and chaotic situations, and especially constant stress. Allisson (an objectively great keeper) made a really bad mistake against Arsenal in Klopp's final season - a game where Liverpool were really under the cosh in a way they rarely are. My concern is that if we were to replace Onana at the expense of making investments that improve our control and defensive robustness, we'll end up with a potentially slightly better keeper still facing an elevated level of defensive chaos, and he too will underperform. I think we win more points next season with Onana + a team in front of him that gives up fewer chances, keeps possession better and scores the first goal more often, as opposed to AN Other keeper and the same midfield.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I get what you are saying. All I can say is that I'm not really an OTT reactive type of guy. Of course we all have different opinions on players and there have been games where Onana has been a good shot stopper etc. And I guess it's how does the balance lie between how much is 'his fault' and how much is 'the defence' etc. But all I can say is that he doesn't come across as a goalie who has a commanding presence. If he is first choice this season and he improves, I'll hold up my hands and say I was wrong, but he's just not convincing enough for me. And I accept it will be difficult because of how poor the team has been in the last 2 seasons to inspire confidence in the defence and prove he is the man, rather than if he was starting afresh.
But the fact that I feel there are a good number of goalies in the league that I would rather have, well he just has a lot to prove for me.
But of course in the team as a whole we have to improve as a unit both defensively and offensively, and that could well help him considerably if we can do that ...............but my gut feeling is it won't much
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 7 minutes ago
We signed a ball playing goalkeeper and put him behind players scared of touching the ball.
I think Onana probably won’t recover, but I do wonder what damage we did to his confidence in the first place.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess part of the game is showing the mental strength to over come that. I guess both he and Rasmus face the same issue - they have to show that they are both good enough mentally as well as talent wise. To a degree Amorim needs to show he has got it also
Be quite ironic if you go back to a world class shot stopper who’s maybe a bit suspect with his feet.
He’s a very good keeper though, and an almost certain upgrade.
https://x.com/akshaypi524/status/1950979885457105331?s=46
Tuco Leon
Onana simply hasn’t been very good for us, and has given very little reason to think he will improve significantly.
Donnarumma is a FAR better GK, so if there is a chance we can get him, on reasonable terms, we should.
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Donnarumma And chips???
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posted on 1/8/25
Tom Heaton is gonna be in goal vs Arsenal by the looks of it. Onana is already error prone let alone if he barely has a pre season and his heads all over the place with transfer rumours too, Bayindir hasn’t looked as good as Heaton in pre season, Heaton is old and obviously won’t have the reflexes of the other two but our defence has looked more solid and calm with him there.
posted on 1/8/25
I don’t think any signings we make from next week onwards will be in the starting line up vs Arsenal tbh, Šeško, a GK or any others that may come.
posted on 1/8/25
He has a year left on his contract. I doubt they will let him out on loan. They signed him for free and he is reportedly on a big wage packet.
TBH he was great in thr CL but is seem lacking jn certain departments and hasn't been great in some matches. He also isn't the ball playing GK that the modern keeper is.
posted on 1/8/25
PSG are close to signing a new keeper in Lille’s Lucas Chevalier who will replace Donnarumma. And Donnarumma could see out the final season of hia contract while competing with Chevalier.
posted on 1/8/25
I don't think Onana is as bad as some do.
Keepers and strikers rely on confidence, they need the backing of the club and crowd to thrive.
posted on 1/8/25
Why Donnarumma would be an upgrade on Onana
By Sky Sports' Peter Smith
Gianluigi Donnarumma would be a massive signing for Man Utd - both literally and figuratively.
The 6ft5in Italy shot-stopper is an enormous presence in the goalmouth and is regarded as one of the best goalkeepers in the business.
It feels like Donnarumma has gone to even greater heights this season, playing a crucial role in Paris St-Germain's incredible season.
Commanding in Ligue 1, a shootout star against Liverpool in the Champions League and formidable with five clean sheets in eight games at the Club World Cup, Donnarumma would be a huge coup for United if they could get a deal done.
Andre Onana has been in the spotlight since he had that let-off against Wolves in his Premier League debut and uncertainty about the current United keeper has fed the nervousness and lack of conviction about Ruben Amorim's backline.
His total of eight errors leading to goals since the start of 2023/24 is more than any other goalkeeper in the Premier League. Donnarumma would be a substantial upgrade.
posted on 1/8/25
His total of eight errors leading to goals since the start of 2023/24 is more than any other goalkeeper in the Premier League.
---------------------------------------------------
I tried to find a source for that stat, as it didn't tally with what I've seen in the past. Turned out it was counting all competitions, so the Onana stats cover far more games than most of the other keepers he's being compared with (who didn't have European football and long cup runs). That's not to brush under the carpet Onana's disastrous impact on our CL group stage last season, but it's journalistically shabby to massage the stats in a way that doesn't compare apples with apples in order to make a sensationalist point, where a valid and slightly more nuanced argument could have been put forward.
My view: the errors are a concern, and therefore an upgrade would be a good. But snatching at any keeper based on a panicked assumption that we're fuсked if we don't get rid of Onana would be very risky. In the PL last season I believe the stats suggested he made three errors leading to goals. They also suggested that he was about average among PL keepers in terms of keeping the ball out of the net. This tells us a couple of things. Firstly, the next keeper could be worse than Onana. Secondly, even if the next keeper is a massive upgrade and doesn't make a single mistake all season (and let's remember that even the best keepers have the occasional howler), it's not going to make a substantial (+10) impact to our goal difference or points total. In terms of priorities, if we can add a CM whose physicality and control of possession means we're not exposing the defence as often and conceding fewer shots, that's going to be much more transformative. And above that, our lack of chances created and goals scored was by a margin the bigger problem than goals conceded last season.
posted on 1/8/25
375k a week is what I've been reading he asked PSG for. They refused. Can't see us entertaining anyone on those wages again for a while, especially a GK.
If it's too pricey for a football club backed by a sovereign state then it might be a clue that it's not a deal we can do either.
Saudi Arabia for half a mill a week most likely.
posted on 1/8/25
As for Donnarumma specifically, I'm a bit wary of investing in him as the long-term solution. Strikes me as the old practice of going after a big name. When he emerged he was Best Keeper in the World TM and many of us still think of him in those terms, because we're not watching closely and probably a lot of us (certainly me included) aren't as keenly interested in goalkeeper technique as outfield players. If his performance over time warranted that reputation as one of the finest, I suspect PSG would have broken the bank to keep him. And I suspect elite teams across the continent would be competing for his signature as his contract runs down.
You might argue we just need him to be better than Onana. But I think at this point of huge financial limitations, we need every transfer not just to represent short-term improvements, but to satisfy our medium-term sporting needs and to provide as much value for investment as possible. The idea of signing a big name, presumably on big wages, who is taking a step down from an elite club that seems happy to let him go raises a lot of questions as to whether he fits those criteria. What I don't want is a four or five-year financial salary commitment to a keeper who is in certain aspects not what we need, which limits what we can invest and our ability to upgrade until we have shifted him.
So with absolutely no commentary on their respective ability levels, I feel a lot more comfortable with the links to the apparently highly talented young Belgian keeper, Lammens, as a number two who can immediately push Onana for the starting spot. If there's a Saudi offer for Onana and we can bring in Donnarumma on similar wages and negligible net spend, that's a different matter.
posted on 1/8/25
Agree with RR
The finances around any deal just don't work for us. If he was willing to lower his wage demands he'd just stay at PSG too surely? Guaranteed trophies and CL football.
We shouldn't be offering any more 350K + a week contracts out right now and least of all to a goalkeeper even though he's a vast improvement on Onana.
We did the same thing with DDG and it ended up being a disaster for us.
posted on 1/8/25
Simply going by the games which I've seen over the past 2 seasons, Onana simply does not give me a 'good feel' for what I want in a goalie. It's not very scientific, and I accept that not everything is his fault and there's a lot of pressure on whoever was in goals. Given that we had the likes of Schmeichel and VDS, against whom it is not fair to compare, but even De Gea at his peak, whilst having certain limitations, felt better.
Onana reminds me of a poor man's Barthez, who for me showed that you can win things without being a great goalie - sadly we don't have the team that surrounded Barthez, so we really need someone who is more solid and reliable.
I still think that Amorim could turn out good, that Rasmus could be a decent player (may not happen with us), but i just don't have that feeling with Onana.
I don't know if Donn' is the answer, but there must be a better option out there
posted on 1/8/25
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 34 minutes ago
Simply going by the games which I've seen over the past 2 seasons, Onana simply does not give me a 'good feel' for what I want in a goalie. It's not very scientific, and I accept that not everything is his fault and there's a lot of pressure on whoever was in goals. Given that we had the likes of Schmeichel and VDS, against whom it is not fair to compare, but even De Gea at his peak, whilst having certain limitations, felt better.
Onana reminds me of a poor man's Barthez, who for me showed that you can win things without being a great goalie - sadly we don't have the team that surrounded Barthez, so we really need someone who is more solid and reliable.
I still think that Amorim could turn out good, that Rasmus could be a decent player (may not happen with us), but i just don't have that feeling with Onana.
I don't know if Donn' is the answer, but there must be a better option out there
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Objectively, Onana hasn't been great. But it seems to me that the reason so many of our fans think replacing him is an absolute priority is because he gives them the willies, kind of how you've described. Personally, I'm in favour of being led by hard facts rather than vibes.
posted on 1/8/25
I don't think Onana is a bad keeper at all. He showed at Inter he was very capable and he also had a run of form for United last year where I thought he was much more consistent.
Much like Kinsang above though it's the feeling I get from him that worries me. That may be harsh but it's how I see it. His mistakes, when they come, do seem to come at crucial times and also I don't think we can pinpoint many games where he's saved us with a great performance. Allison at Liverpool is a great example of a keeper that does come up with some match winning performances. What he does have though in fairness is a better forward line that can take advantage of that.
Perhaps Onana will get better as the team gets better. I hope he does! I think it says a lot though that at present I'd 'trust' Heaton more in goal than the other two!
posted on 1/8/25
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 34 minutes ago
Simply going by the games which I've seen over the past 2 seasons, Onana simply does not give me a 'good feel' for what I want in a goalie. It's not very scientific, and I accept that not everything is his fault and there's a lot of pressure on whoever was in goals. Given that we had the likes of Schmeichel and VDS, against whom it is not fair to compare, but even De Gea at his peak, whilst having certain limitations, felt better.
Onana reminds me of a poor man's Barthez, who for me showed that you can win things without being a great goalie - sadly we don't have the team that surrounded Barthez, so we really need someone who is more solid and reliable.
I still think that Amorim could turn out good, that Rasmus could be a decent player (may not happen with us), but i just don't have that feeling with Onana.
I don't know if Donn' is the answer, but there must be a better option out there
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Objectively, Onana hasn't been great. But it seems to me that the reason so many of our fans think replacing him is an absolute priority is because he gives them the willies, kind of how you've described. Personally, I'm in favour of being led by hard facts rather than vibes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe I am simple, but I just say what I see in games. Regardless of position, you just look at some players and think, yep, we've got a good one here, or not as the case may be. Sadly we've not had that many good ones in recent times.
We often hear how a good goalie can save you so many points per season. Obviously the defence plays a part in that also, but does anyone have confidence that Onana does that for us? So when I see Onana play, with my own eyes, I'm not seeing a great goalie.
If we had our pick of all the goalies in the EPL right now, how many would get picked above Onana? I think that answers whether we need someone else or not.
Maybe hard facts and stats suggest otherwise, but I find it difficult to believe that replacing Onana shouldn't be considered a priority.
posted on 1/8/25
kinsang, I hope my comment didn't come across as condescending.
Another way of putting it is that I think goalkeeping errors are magnified in our memories because of the consequences. Maybe strikers who miss good chances are the only comparison. E.g. the idea that Andy Cole needed loads of shots to score still haunts his legacy, despite the fact that he's objectively one of the best strikers in the history of the PL. If midfielder's passing or closing down is 2% worse than the level you'd like it to be, that underperformance isn't going to be as visible to fans, and if he scores a wondergoal, that's going to stick in the human memory far more, even though the impact of that goal is a lot less significant than the impact of him delivering less control and less defensive cover than the team needs.
So I think Onana on the basis of a handful of errors (which happened in greater number in the first half of his first season) has given our human brains a lot of very stark impressions that have defined the popular view of him. In the meantime, he's saving overall a similar % of shots to his peers, doing an average job in terms of goals prevented/conceded over the course of the season, in the context of playing for a team that's unstable, fragile in confidence, playing under stress, and prone to defensive lapses that mean he's facing more shots than a lot of the better keepers in the league. I think a bit of hysteria has built up around him to the extent that with just about every goal we concede, fans are jumping to blame Onana. And of course any save he makes 'he ought to have made'.
Good players (including keepers) are more prone to making errors when they are put into pressurised and chaotic situations, and especially constant stress. Allisson (an objectively great keeper) made a really bad mistake against Arsenal in Klopp's final season - a game where Liverpool were really under the cosh in a way they rarely are. My concern is that if we were to replace Onana at the expense of making investments that improve our control and defensive robustness, we'll end up with a potentially slightly better keeper still facing an elevated level of defensive chaos, and he too will underperform. I think we win more points next season with Onana + a team in front of him that gives up fewer chances, keeps possession better and scores the first goal more often, as opposed to AN Other keeper and the same midfield.
posted on 1/8/25
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 hours, 25 minutes ago
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 34 minutes ago
Simply going by the games which I've seen over the past 2 seasons, Onana simply does not give me a 'good feel' for what I want in a goalie. It's not very scientific, and I accept that not everything is his fault and there's a lot of pressure on whoever was in goals. Given that we had the likes of Schmeichel and VDS, against whom it is not fair to compare, but even De Gea at his peak, whilst having certain limitations, felt better.
Onana reminds me of a poor man's Barthez, who for me showed that you can win things without being a great goalie - sadly we don't have the team that surrounded Barthez, so we really need someone who is more solid and reliable.
I still think that Amorim could turn out good, that Rasmus could be a decent player (may not happen with us), but i just don't have that feeling with Onana.
I don't know if Donn' is the answer, but there must be a better option out there
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Objectively, Onana hasn't been great. But it seems to me that the reason so many of our fans think replacing him is an absolute priority is because he gives them the willies, kind of how you've described. Personally, I'm in favour of being led by hard facts rather than vibes.
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No. It's that he gave our DEFENDERS the willies. Every corner we face, our defence is all over the place and I'm sure a lot of that has to do with the lack of confidence in what's behind them.
posted on 1/8/25
comment by Macari's chip shop (U13341)
posted 20 minutes ago
No. It's that he gave our DEFENDERS the willies. Every corner we face, our defence is all over the place and I'm sure a lot of that has to do with the lack of confidence in what's behind them.
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Was it Onana's fault when our defenders kept getting the willies in 2022/23 as well?
posted on 1/8/25
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 26 minutes ago
comment by Macari's chip shop (U13341)
posted 20 minutes ago
No. It's that he gave our DEFENDERS the willies. Every corner we face, our defence is all over the place and I'm sure a lot of that has to do with the lack of confidence in what's behind them.
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Was it Onana's fault when our defenders kept getting the willies in 2022/23 as well?
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No, that was De Gea's!
posted on 1/8/25
comment by Macari's chip shop (U13341)
posted 20 minutes ago
No. It's that he gave our DEFENDERS the willies. Every corner we face, our defence is all over the place and I'm sure a lot of that has to do with the lack of confidence in what's behind them.
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Was it Onana's fault when our defenders kept getting the willies in 2022/23 as well?
—
Yes. They probably heard a rumor Andre on-no-fack-no was coming and freaked out.
posted on 1/8/25
We signed a ball playing goalkeeper and put him behind players scared of touching the ball.
I think Onana probably won’t recover, but I do wonder what damage we did to his confidence in the first place.
posted on 1/8/25
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 4 hours, 49 minutes ago
kinsang, I hope my comment didn't come across as condescending.
Another way of putting it is that I think goalkeeping errors are magnified in our memories because of the consequences. Maybe strikers who miss good chances are the only comparison. E.g. the idea that Andy Cole needed loads of shots to score still haunts his legacy, despite the fact that he's objectively one of the best strikers in the history of the PL. If midfielder's passing or closing down is 2% worse than the level you'd like it to be, that underperformance isn't going to be as visible to fans, and if he scores a wondergoal, that's going to stick in the human memory far more, even though the impact of that goal is a lot less significant than the impact of him delivering less control and less defensive cover than the team needs.
So I think Onana on the basis of a handful of errors (which happened in greater number in the first half of his first season) has given our human brains a lot of very stark impressions that have defined the popular view of him. In the meantime, he's saving overall a similar % of shots to his peers, doing an average job in terms of goals prevented/conceded over the course of the season, in the context of playing for a team that's unstable, fragile in confidence, playing under stress, and prone to defensive lapses that mean he's facing more shots than a lot of the better keepers in the league. I think a bit of hysteria has built up around him to the extent that with just about every goal we concede, fans are jumping to blame Onana. And of course any save he makes 'he ought to have made'.
Good players (including keepers) are more prone to making errors when they are put into pressurised and chaotic situations, and especially constant stress. Allisson (an objectively great keeper) made a really bad mistake against Arsenal in Klopp's final season - a game where Liverpool were really under the cosh in a way they rarely are. My concern is that if we were to replace Onana at the expense of making investments that improve our control and defensive robustness, we'll end up with a potentially slightly better keeper still facing an elevated level of defensive chaos, and he too will underperform. I think we win more points next season with Onana + a team in front of him that gives up fewer chances, keeps possession better and scores the first goal more often, as opposed to AN Other keeper and the same midfield.
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I get what you are saying. All I can say is that I'm not really an OTT reactive type of guy. Of course we all have different opinions on players and there have been games where Onana has been a good shot stopper etc. And I guess it's how does the balance lie between how much is 'his fault' and how much is 'the defence' etc. But all I can say is that he doesn't come across as a goalie who has a commanding presence. If he is first choice this season and he improves, I'll hold up my hands and say I was wrong, but he's just not convincing enough for me. And I accept it will be difficult because of how poor the team has been in the last 2 seasons to inspire confidence in the defence and prove he is the man, rather than if he was starting afresh.
But the fact that I feel there are a good number of goalies in the league that I would rather have, well he just has a lot to prove for me.
But of course in the team as a whole we have to improve as a unit both defensively and offensively, and that could well help him considerably if we can do that ...............but my gut feeling is it won't much
posted on 1/8/25
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 7 minutes ago
We signed a ball playing goalkeeper and put him behind players scared of touching the ball.
I think Onana probably won’t recover, but I do wonder what damage we did to his confidence in the first place.
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I guess part of the game is showing the mental strength to over come that. I guess both he and Rasmus face the same issue - they have to show that they are both good enough mentally as well as talent wise. To a degree Amorim needs to show he has got it also
posted on 1/8/25
Be quite ironic if you go back to a world class shot stopper who’s maybe a bit suspect with his feet.
He’s a very good keeper though, and an almost certain upgrade.
posted on 1/8/25
https://x.com/akshaypi524/status/1950979885457105331?s=46
Tuco Leon
posted on 2/8/25
Onana simply hasn’t been very good for us, and has given very little reason to think he will improve significantly.
Donnarumma is a FAR better GK, so if there is a chance we can get him, on reasonable terms, we should.
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