the only people who bang on about history are supporters of teams who are shoite in the here and now

it doesn't matter if you won the league 30 years ago, it's what you do in the present that counts, thats what attracts players to clubs!!!

i wouldn't say Villa are a 'small' club, they have a decent sized stadium and relatively large fan base when you consider the number of teams in the midlands but you aren't a 'big' club either, you need to consistently challenge for honours to warrant that tag

When lion the king of the jungle gets old even calves start chasing him away...

But i consider the likes of Leeds massive? and southampton are still a pretty big club. Im not delusioned obviously I know we are well behind and feel many villa fans need to have a reality check because they think one or two signings and we can conquer the champions league. Money is what is attracting players these days as much as honours..

I suppose there are 2 sides on every debate but obviously thats just how I see it.

I just feel money has ruined the true sprirt of football.

"Leeds are giants of the english game, just because they're in a lower league does not change that."

On that basis, of history being most important, Sunderland are a massive club -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_football_records#Most_successful_clubs_overall_.281871_.E2.80.93_present.29

- 6th highest number of titles.

Leeds WERE huge, been down two tables for a good few years, and struggling to get back to Prem. Amazing what mismanagement behind the scenes can do, but I dont see them as that big now.

Villa are "sleeping giants" I only hope the people responsoble regret letting MON go, I thought he could take you back into regular top 4 contention.

I just feel money has ruined the true sprirt of football
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that's one thing i wholeheartedly agree on. It infuriates me how chmpionship clubs can see of Rangers & Celtic when signing players as they can offer more money due to Sky also the team who finishes rock bottom of the PL is gauranteed around £30m where the OF share £3m between them, it's wrong

All villa fans live in the past, same as Wolves fans.

Deluded indeed, the way they were carrying on over a new manager they would have questioned Fergie has he gone for the job!!!!! Fickle and mis-guided.

J Taity - hit the nail on the head 'fickle & mis-guided' = Aston V fans

taity, some villa fans do live in the past. I see as going nowhere, taking steps backward all the time. I do not cling onto our past, im very proud though. We are by no means close to spurs and man city and even liverpool.

WAYNE.. mon walked out on us because dead wood were sitting on the bench on ridiculous high wages for what they were contributing to the team.. lerner told MON the ship them out and stop wasting money.. mon didnt like it and walked out. I very much appreciate what he did for the club, we would have gone down by now if it wasnt for him but he was a coward and threw his toys out the pram. Many villa fans still cant get over thats hes left.

i dont agree money has ruined the game, without it we wouldnt have great stadiums from the prem right down league 2. something england can be proud of.

I agree money has both made and destroyed parts of football. The wages and the "business" attitude towards football is ridiculous. I dislike the "customer" label on fans.. football is something i love and cherish, i dont think about money much because i will follow my club as long as im physically able to for the rest of my life

i dont agree money has ruined the game, without it we wouldnt have great stadiums from the prem right down league 2. something england can be proud of.

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of course you disagree, without Sky's money the PL wouldn't be half as good as most people make it out to be. what would happen if Sky withdrew their funding, would it still be the beutiful game? i doubt it a lot of teams would go to the wall

Our ambitions are high, what's so wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with ambition, I'd like to be a top class guitarist - but I know that I'm not at present and it would take alot of hard work to get there. This is what most villa fans don't seem to accept - that villa are currently an 8th-9th place club at best and if you expect anything more than this next season, you're being umrealistic.villa went backward last season and have alot pfwprk to do to get back into the top six.

8th-9th place? UMAD? I would say were a 10th-12th/13th team at the moment. I cant stand fans who think 1 or 2 signings and we will become champions of england.

I expect us to finish midtable again this season.. maybe about 11th if im perfectly honest. I think 9th place was right last year because we played very, very well in away games where we failed to get a result or a win.

Its all about the money

If Swansea was taken over by owners like Man City then over next 5 years they would compete for more than Villa.

Liverpool and Arsenal was amoung the best clubs, Man Utd under Sir Alex from the 90's made Man Utd a big name.

Chelsea, Spurs and Villa all fought for 3rd-6th each season, back in the day other sides would creep into the top 4 and better including Blackburn and Newcastle

Its all about the money nowadays.

Villa, Everton and then Sunderland and Newcastle are the sides on paper to challenge for 7th-10th each season.

But sides can have ups and downs, hence Villa in bottom half, even relegation battles Sunderland likewise.

While a Fulham, Bolton and Stoke could all climp and get a 7th-10th.

But no matter what that Top 6 Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool and Spurs looks hard to break.

The KiD

Are we big? Except in money terms, yes, and even there we're not poor. The money bit means we can't buy our place in the big 5 year after year, but money doesn't always work, and with a good manager, developing our players and shrewd signings we can be knocking on the door. Spurs the last couple of years have done more with less. It's still possible, here and in Europe, for teams in our position climb above the "bigger" clubs. We're already one of the best clubs for turning out young internationals. We can build on that.

We ought to have a better season this year than last, even though the PL will be at least as tough. So 8th or above. If the manager turns out as the optimists say and we all hope, but ...

History only counts if you can rememeber it. No point reading about it in books.

If you can't remember it then why worry about it.

In that case the above teams you mentioned are no longer 'MASSIVE'!

Newcastle are big and Sunderland if your looking at it like that, Wolves have potential to be Everton Big if we are looking at fanbase/gates.

If you have to add history into it then this is where a Spurs and Villa should be taking the Top 5 spots, and with Chelsea.

But Chelseas cash made them the step up from Spurs and Villa, and Man City cash would turn them from a no bigger club than a Coventry or WBA to a force.

The KiD

my dad sharing his experiences of things like the last day at arsenal in '81 and the european cup campaign are things that I love to learn about, realise as much as I can what he experiences although ill never fully know how great it was. Sharing those moments with my dad i cherish and will tell my own kids what my dad said.. and also the ups and downs of my experiences.

it's not all about money, it's all about lerner who is being stubborn and ignoring the only people that he should be answerable to - a club is only about it's fans. this move will reduce the fan base - so we'll become a worse club. full stop.

i guess he wants to reduce costs and by having mcleish he feels the club will maintain mid-table with cheaper players.

there'll be less fans and tv revenue will reduce with awful defensive football.

i have an awful feeling he just wants to balance the books and sell up in a couple of years

40 years ago Manyoo were in the 2nd div and got gates of 50k. At the same time Villa were in the 3rd div and they had 30k+ crowds. Thats what makes them big clubs and makes Blackburn, Bolton, Wigan, QPR, Fulham, Hull, Burnley, Pompey. Cardiff, and plenty more not!