siempre
What dragged the saga out even more was Evra saying he was called a n****er, which he wasn't!
An admission by Evra that he got it wrong, or indeed that he lied about the incident at the very outset would definitely have killed the whole sorry situation stone dead! But he didn't.
The PFA tried to defuse the situation by arranging a meet, but couldn't get the 2 players together...my understanding is that Suarez wanted to meet seeing as he thought there was a misunderstanding, but Evra refused the meeting! Why? Surely this would be beneficial to everyone involved, particularly when you consider that Evra had already acknowledged that he misunderstood what Suarez had said!
So Evra complained that he was categorically called ni***er, this was written down by the referee. Then he realises he had misunderstood what Suarez has said and at the same time the PFA offer to mediate and try to defuse the situation, yet Evra refuses, why? He clearly misunderstood, he clearly exaggerated the number of times he claimed he was called n***er, or negro, depending on whether you translate it into Spanish, English or Italian, once, five, seven or ten times!!!
Can you see why this issue is still being debated? I can...by the way, have you read the report?
I still wonder why this innocent man has refused to appeal. If Billy can come up with so passionate a defence, I'm sure his lawyers could have done a better job
ManUtdDaredevil - Probably because there hasn't ever been a successful appeal with an FA independent panel.
ask yourself this Billybob
what is worse, being a liar or being a racist.
None of us know what was said and who was lying. Everyone on this forum has lied at one time or another for good reasons and bad. How many on here would admit to being racist ? not many.
That is why it isn't an even argument.
and it is an argument Liverpool fans can't win. The more they carry this on, the worse it will get. This is one mans word against another but because of the nature of the argument it isnt a straight fight.
How much criticism have United had over this ? zero. How much have Liverpool had ? A lot and getting worse by the week.
People need to see beyond the argument and beyond what is right and wrong. You think he didnt do it , other people think he did, and you will never convince them otherwise.
We'll keep trying to educate them Siempre, it's the least we can do, perhaps one of these days something might finally click with one of the unfortunate supporters who hasn't been able to grasp this injustice.
That is the day we all look forward to, the education of those less fortunate is a magical thing.
I don't think the problem is what he said, the report tells us what he said.
There are two main areas of contention as I see it.
1. Was it a racist comment?
2. The way the FA dealt with the whole case i.e basing a decision on 'probability'.
but a lot of people don't think it is an injustice and only two people really know the truth. And the truth really doesn't matter.
I know I am not going to convince you but perception is more important than reality. The perception is that you were defending a racist act and booing the victim. I know that wasnt what was happening but thats the way it looked to a lot of people.
Well done Billy on keeping this thread going.
500 posts coming soon, YOU CAN DO EET!!!
and by you I meant Liverpool fans, I forgot you arent one Billy (ahem)
siempre
Have you read the report?
Oh, and I don't understand what you are getting at with your question about what is worse, lying or being racist...who is a racist?
As I said earlier, this could have been stopped straight away, Evra admittedly misunderstood Suarez, the PFA offered to mediate to try and see if there had been a misunderstanding, Evra refused! For me, he deserved every single boo that he got on Saturday, not because he is black, but because he lied, exaggerated and refused a possible olive branch set up by the PFA!
That to me is not helping the fight against racism, if someone offers you a chance to try and settle a dispute, a dispute that you started and a dispute that you clearly acknowledged you misinterpreted, why would you refuse to take it? Surely supporters of the 'kick it out' campaign would like to see mediation, or indeed any form of resolution attempted before the incident escalated any further?
I don't understand how Evra can misunderstand something, then refuse to listen to, or understand the reasons why he misunderstood! Would you not want to be educated as to the possible reasons why you possibly got something so grossly wrong? Or would you refuse to listen, believing that the bizarre -Spanish/Italian/English/I am now offended excuse would be believed?
Siempre
"I know that wasnt what was happening but thats the way it looked to a lot of people."
Isn't that just ignorance, and a refusal to understand a different point of view on the part of a 'lot of people'?
It's obvious that perception is more important than reality because that's how the FA came up with the decision in the first place! Evra was a victim of a conversation in Spanish which he started. Why he chose to insult Suarez in the only language he would understand shows how much he wanted to insult him. To then and get off with that without any sanction isn't fair.
Suarez is no angel and neither is Evra.
sticks and stones may break my bones, but racist names can lead to imprisonment.
Isn't that just ignorance, and a refusal to understand a different point of view on the part of a 'lot of people'?
yes and you can either live in the real world and accept that happens, or carry on with the crusade and suffer for it.
What racist names?
Negro means black - it's not racist. Just becasue the FA say it is doesn't make it so. When did you all put such store in the FA?
i also live in spain and I am fluent in spanish so i have my own opinion on that.
but my point was that name calling and insults are part of the game so Evra was never going to be pulled up about that, quite apart from the fact that the word sudaca is very insulting in spanish. So maybe he is a little lucky to have got away with that but he did, fact. Two wrongs dont make a right and however noble you think your cause is, it is a fight you will never win.
Siempre
So because people are ignorant of what actually happened and do not know the reasons why Evra was booed, that should just be accepted as being the 'real world' and everyone should just move on?
Are you for real? I take it you haven't read the report by the way, seeing as you will not answer! By not reading it and then having so much to say on the matter, are you not making the mistake of actually talking about something that you really do not understand?
You can be as fluent in Spanish as much as you want mate, but if you haven't read the report then you are guilty of talking nonsense...you don't even know what actually happened during the hearing, yet you feel able to tell others what they should/should not be saying...how bizarre!
I guess you are going to come back now and say you read it...too late mate!
It's not much point telling people to read the report BB when they believe every word that it says.
Another thing on this whole sorry saga...why are the police not involved?
Surely the FA have some sort of 'duty of care' towards Evra. Their panel concluded that a criminal act had taken place, seven times!! Why have the FA not reported this 'crime' to the police?
Or why have the police not intervened themselves? They clearly know that the FA have concluded that a criminal act has taken place, it has been all over the media, so why no police action? Surely they need to get involved in tackling crime...and surely the FA, if they are keen on fighting racism, should want a criminal act involving racism to be dealt with as severely as possible to send a message to future 'probable' racists?
Why haven't United informed the police, or Evra...surely they want to see racism stamped out and not just dealt with by an 8 match-ban...surely if they were supporters of fighting racism they would want Suarez to be punished as severely as possible, I mean, what sort of message are United sending out by letting Suarez escape the wrath of the law, they accepted he was guilty of using racial language, so why stop at the FA? Or are they not serious about fighting racism?
siempre - Spanish spoken in Spain is different to that in Uruguay. It's already been accepted that the words Evra said Suarez said couldn't possibly have been so as it's not the compilation of the language as Suarez would speak it.
Billy most acts on a football field never make it to the criminal courts, that by itself is evidence of... absolutely nothing.
johnsonbaby
True.
The experts said that Evra's account of the words used by Suarez were 'unusual' if they were meant as a racial slur and that Suarez does not use certain verb forms that Evra alleged he used. The panel said Evra may have got mixed up!!!!!
The experts said that Suarez' account of what he said was both linguistically and culturally correct, and that these words were not a racial slur, to be a slur they would been accompanied by other more derogatory words...something which neither Evra or SDuarez mentioned!
The panel decided that Evra's version was what happened...even though it was unusual and contained words not used by Suarez, as evidenced from their own investigation into the way Suarez speaks (obtained from tv interviews etc).
So the experts conclusion was ignored, and Evra was believed...even though Evra's version makes no sense and contains language that is alien to Suarez!!!
Yeah, Suarez is bang to rights!
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posted on 30/1/12
siempre
What dragged the saga out even more was Evra saying he was called a n****er, which he wasn't!
An admission by Evra that he got it wrong, or indeed that he lied about the incident at the very outset would definitely have killed the whole sorry situation stone dead! But he didn't.
The PFA tried to defuse the situation by arranging a meet, but couldn't get the 2 players together...my understanding is that Suarez wanted to meet seeing as he thought there was a misunderstanding, but Evra refused the meeting! Why? Surely this would be beneficial to everyone involved, particularly when you consider that Evra had already acknowledged that he misunderstood what Suarez had said!
So Evra complained that he was categorically called ni***er, this was written down by the referee. Then he realises he had misunderstood what Suarez has said and at the same time the PFA offer to mediate and try to defuse the situation, yet Evra refuses, why? He clearly misunderstood, he clearly exaggerated the number of times he claimed he was called n***er, or negro, depending on whether you translate it into Spanish, English or Italian, once, five, seven or ten times!!!
Can you see why this issue is still being debated? I can...by the way, have you read the report?
posted on 30/1/12
BillyBob
posted on 30/1/12
I still wonder why this innocent man has refused to appeal. If Billy can come up with so passionate a defence, I'm sure his lawyers could have done a better job
posted on 30/1/12
ManUtdDaredevil - Probably because there hasn't ever been a successful appeal with an FA independent panel.
posted on 30/1/12
ask yourself this Billybob
what is worse, being a liar or being a racist.
None of us know what was said and who was lying. Everyone on this forum has lied at one time or another for good reasons and bad. How many on here would admit to being racist ? not many.
That is why it isn't an even argument.
and it is an argument Liverpool fans can't win. The more they carry this on, the worse it will get. This is one mans word against another but because of the nature of the argument it isnt a straight fight.
How much criticism have United had over this ? zero. How much have Liverpool had ? A lot and getting worse by the week.
People need to see beyond the argument and beyond what is right and wrong. You think he didnt do it , other people think he did, and you will never convince them otherwise.
posted on 30/1/12
We'll keep trying to educate them Siempre, it's the least we can do, perhaps one of these days something might finally click with one of the unfortunate supporters who hasn't been able to grasp this injustice.
That is the day we all look forward to, the education of those less fortunate is a magical thing.
posted on 30/1/12
I don't think the problem is what he said, the report tells us what he said.
There are two main areas of contention as I see it.
1. Was it a racist comment?
2. The way the FA dealt with the whole case i.e basing a decision on 'probability'.
posted on 30/1/12
but a lot of people don't think it is an injustice and only two people really know the truth. And the truth really doesn't matter.
I know I am not going to convince you but perception is more important than reality. The perception is that you were defending a racist act and booing the victim. I know that wasnt what was happening but thats the way it looked to a lot of people.
posted on 30/1/12
Well done Billy on keeping this thread going.
500 posts coming soon, YOU CAN DO EET!!!
posted on 30/1/12
i am doing my bit too !
posted on 30/1/12
and by you I meant Liverpool fans, I forgot you arent one Billy (ahem)
posted on 30/1/12
siempre
Have you read the report?
Oh, and I don't understand what you are getting at with your question about what is worse, lying or being racist...who is a racist?
As I said earlier, this could have been stopped straight away, Evra admittedly misunderstood Suarez, the PFA offered to mediate to try and see if there had been a misunderstanding, Evra refused! For me, he deserved every single boo that he got on Saturday, not because he is black, but because he lied, exaggerated and refused a possible olive branch set up by the PFA!
That to me is not helping the fight against racism, if someone offers you a chance to try and settle a dispute, a dispute that you started and a dispute that you clearly acknowledged you misinterpreted, why would you refuse to take it? Surely supporters of the 'kick it out' campaign would like to see mediation, or indeed any form of resolution attempted before the incident escalated any further?
I don't understand how Evra can misunderstand something, then refuse to listen to, or understand the reasons why he misunderstood! Would you not want to be educated as to the possible reasons why you possibly got something so grossly wrong? Or would you refuse to listen, believing that the bizarre -Spanish/Italian/English/I am now offended excuse would be believed?
posted on 30/1/12
Siempre
"I know that wasnt what was happening but thats the way it looked to a lot of people."
Isn't that just ignorance, and a refusal to understand a different point of view on the part of a 'lot of people'?
posted on 30/1/12
It's obvious that perception is more important than reality because that's how the FA came up with the decision in the first place! Evra was a victim of a conversation in Spanish which he started. Why he chose to insult Suarez in the only language he would understand shows how much he wanted to insult him. To then and get off with that without any sanction isn't fair.
Suarez is no angel and neither is Evra.
posted on 30/1/12
sticks and stones may break my bones, but racist names can lead to imprisonment.
posted on 30/1/12
Isn't that just ignorance, and a refusal to understand a different point of view on the part of a 'lot of people'?
yes and you can either live in the real world and accept that happens, or carry on with the crusade and suffer for it.
posted on 30/1/12
What racist names?
Negro means black - it's not racist. Just becasue the FA say it is doesn't make it so. When did you all put such store in the FA?
posted on 30/1/12
i also live in spain and I am fluent in spanish so i have my own opinion on that.
but my point was that name calling and insults are part of the game so Evra was never going to be pulled up about that, quite apart from the fact that the word sudaca is very insulting in spanish. So maybe he is a little lucky to have got away with that but he did, fact. Two wrongs dont make a right and however noble you think your cause is, it is a fight you will never win.
posted on 30/1/12
Siempre
So because people are ignorant of what actually happened and do not know the reasons why Evra was booed, that should just be accepted as being the 'real world' and everyone should just move on?
Are you for real? I take it you haven't read the report by the way, seeing as you will not answer! By not reading it and then having so much to say on the matter, are you not making the mistake of actually talking about something that you really do not understand?
You can be as fluent in Spanish as much as you want mate, but if you haven't read the report then you are guilty of talking nonsense...you don't even know what actually happened during the hearing, yet you feel able to tell others what they should/should not be saying...how bizarre!
I guess you are going to come back now and say you read it...too late mate!
posted on 30/1/12
It's not much point telling people to read the report BB when they believe every word that it says.
posted on 30/1/12
bobby
True!
posted on 30/1/12
Another thing on this whole sorry saga...why are the police not involved?
Surely the FA have some sort of 'duty of care' towards Evra. Their panel concluded that a criminal act had taken place, seven times!! Why have the FA not reported this 'crime' to the police?
Or why have the police not intervened themselves? They clearly know that the FA have concluded that a criminal act has taken place, it has been all over the media, so why no police action? Surely they need to get involved in tackling crime...and surely the FA, if they are keen on fighting racism, should want a criminal act involving racism to be dealt with as severely as possible to send a message to future 'probable' racists?
Why haven't United informed the police, or Evra...surely they want to see racism stamped out and not just dealt with by an 8 match-ban...surely if they were supporters of fighting racism they would want Suarez to be punished as severely as possible, I mean, what sort of message are United sending out by letting Suarez escape the wrath of the law, they accepted he was guilty of using racial language, so why stop at the FA? Or are they not serious about fighting racism?
posted on 30/1/12
siempre - Spanish spoken in Spain is different to that in Uruguay. It's already been accepted that the words Evra said Suarez said couldn't possibly have been so as it's not the compilation of the language as Suarez would speak it.
posted on 30/1/12
Billy most acts on a football field never make it to the criminal courts, that by itself is evidence of... absolutely nothing.
posted on 30/1/12
johnsonbaby
True.
The experts said that Evra's account of the words used by Suarez were 'unusual' if they were meant as a racial slur and that Suarez does not use certain verb forms that Evra alleged he used. The panel said Evra may have got mixed up!!!!!
The experts said that Suarez' account of what he said was both linguistically and culturally correct, and that these words were not a racial slur, to be a slur they would been accompanied by other more derogatory words...something which neither Evra or SDuarez mentioned!
The panel decided that Evra's version was what happened...even though it was unusual and contained words not used by Suarez, as evidenced from their own investigation into the way Suarez speaks (obtained from tv interviews etc).
So the experts conclusion was ignored, and Evra was believed...even though Evra's version makes no sense and contains language that is alien to Suarez!!!
Yeah, Suarez is bang to rights!
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