I'm definitely B, but I don't necessarily question other fans loyalty just their intellectual capability.
You can't just buy a few players and expect to win the league straight away without going mental with the money like City are and like Chelsea did, and before some idiot starts spouting about how much we've spent they need to take into account the ridiculous wages being spewed out by these clubs.
It's okay spending to buy, hopefully you can get that back when you sell him on, but if you give a player £150K a week on a 5 year contract well that's £39M that the club will never see again.
Sometimes people forget that it took Shanks about 5 seasons to win his first League title and about the same for furrgy.
I agree to a degree, I never expected us to win or even challenge for the title. I did however expect more from the team this year. I accept players need time to settle, and the signings aren't my biggest issue. I feel Caroll should be much more involved than he is and Henderson needs to be playing less. He looks a player bereft of confidence and should be given more protection by Kenny, playing fewer games.
To an extent I am B. Although I accept that other supporters have a right to their opinion, even if it differs from mine.
However, whilst I am in agreement that Kenny should be given time; I do think that he needs to stand up and admit he has made some huge mistakes with tactics and selection.
He needs to be man enough to look at things, openly say "I got this or that wrong", and be prepared to change what is wrong instead of doggedly sticking with the way some things are at the moment.
At the start of the season I expected top 4, not the league, that was silly but with the signings made I thought we would make the step up, now if a lot of fellow reds felt the same (and they did on this board whatever the may say now)then were we all wrong, like Kenny is said to be now the players aren't performing?
This is before we get in to the debate about it being sabermetrics/Camolli/Kenny who actually sanctioned the buys. Kenny can be blamed for some tactical decisions but the way we have played and dominated the games I don't think anyone could of envisaged we'd make so many chances and just not put them away, everyone thought/hoped this would be Carroll's season and it's just not happened.
Having said all this my personal opinion is Kenny may go at the end of the season, FSG are on record as saying 4th was the minimum expected, everyone also seems to forget that Kenny had to convince the owners he was right for the job after being out for so long.
Long and short, he probably deserves more time but I'm not convinced he will get it
At the start of the season I expected top 4, not the league, that was silly but with the signings made I thought we would make the step up, now if a lot of fellow reds felt the same (and they did on this board whatever the may say now)
........................
I have pointed this out as well, this isn't to say Kenny is doing a bad job but I think it must have either been that or a lot of fans were overly optimistic about what their team was capable off.
Solid B) for me
So it's either A or B
Or C if you are the OP.
At the end of the day the owners will look at the facts (I may sound a bit Rafa-ish now). We, whether it be Kenny or Commoli have sound a ton of cash and the best we've got to show for it is a couple of average players. And more than a couple of $h!t players. We will not finish higher than last year, we will score less goals, possibly be lower down the league and if we are lucky we might just stay above Swansea and Hogsons WBA. We are average, most of our players are average and our final league position will reflect how average we are. I'll be shocked if the owners don't take action in the summer.
Personally I think Kenny hasn't done a good enough job, Commoli hasn't done a good enough job and every player from Reina through Carroll hasn't done a good enough job.
I will always support the club and I have every right to moan when they cause me such heartache. I'm just glad I'm not the one that has to sort this mid table mess out.
I totally agree with Super Injunction's
'Kenny may go at the end of the season, FSG are on record as saying 4th was the minimum expected, everyone also seems to forget that Kenny had to convince the owners he was right for the job after being out for so long.
Long and short, he probably deserves more time but I'm not convinced he will get it'.
FSG, I think, will ignore the trophy (/ies, as the FA cup is certainly the prime objective for us this season now) and wield the axe come May.
It may depend on an available manager, and I've always fancied Mourinho has liked the look of us, regardless of what we've become in recent seasons. Chelsea, Inter and Madrid were always easy jobs for him because they had a decent core and money to spend. I think if he wins the CL & title this season with Madrid, he may look for a new challenge, and what better challenge to take on than another famous European club fallen slightly below the radar. It may appeal to his ego; to take Liverpool back to the top, and I'm sure he'd have a decent transfer kitty to improve in areas we badly need improvement.
Of course, this is hypothetical and the likelihood of getting him is slim to none, but if there's a manager out there who would like a challenge to get us back into the elite, then I think FSG will try to lure him. As much as I think next season could be the one that makes or breaks Kenny's second spell in charge, I simply can't see him getting it. Modern football is largely built on fickleness in the quest immediate success. Kenny had that success when he came in last season, but will the fickleness of not achieving a top 4 spot this season also remove him? I think so, but whatever happens, Kenny will remain a legend always and can be thanked for bringing back the feel good factor last season and some silverware this.
Thanks for the Plastic Chelsea dig OP
Coming form a supporter <fan> of the original and biggest plastic club out there, I take that' as a compliment
Even those that were expecting us to get 4th are slightly mental. 4th was always going to be a though ask.
Yes with Arsenal & Chelsea indifferent season, we may have missed a golden opportunity but people are forgetting that there are 6 (fairly new) first teamers in the current first 11. And now they expect everything to fall into place. It was never going to happen.
Add to this, Gerrard's injuries, Lucas being out, Suarez ban and now Agger's injury, its only going to get more difficult.
Yes Kenny has made mistakes, but this is his first full season in management after something like 10years. Cut the man some slack. Im not saying dont criticize, but atleast be rational when doing so.
These fickle fans are just causing more pressure than anything else. This season was gone as soon as the final whistle blew at the Arsenal game. FA Cup requires our focus now...and start building for next season.
My view is that personally I'm not sure why he doesn't do the right thing. He has done what was required and that is to bring order to the chaotic ship after hodgsen Gillette and hicks and had a good cup season, but i think he is way out of his depth managing at this level in this era after so long out but he is a stubborn man and I do think he is trying to stick around on a personal level because of what SAF had done with united.
It really must get under his skin because when he left LFC and it's record, it looked like it was never going to be touched and now it has, he won't walk away because of his ego, but (and here's to hoping that his personal agenda and ego as a united fan causes more harm to your club than good), but as a viewer from outside the KOP I can honestly see that happening! (The last bit being said with rivalries aside!)
We dont need Wums to tell us what to do with our club
its a solid b)
I think the wums feel because our club is UNITED that they view Kenny as a threat, and he is the only one capable of knocking whiskey face off his perch !!!
I would say I'm in between also. I'd be happy with a change of manager as I think Kenny has shown that tactically, he leaves a lot to be desired. However I wouldn't be too unhappy if he were to stay and get another year, so as he has a chance to improve. If anybody deserves another chance, it's Kenny.
We dont need Wums to tell us what to do with our club
its a solid b)
I think the wums feel because our club is UNITED that they view Kenny as a threat, and he is the only one capable of knocking whiskey face off his perch !!!
-------------
Why so defensive? (If your comments are aimed at me)
I haven't wummed in my post. I've simply said it from the perspective of an outsider. Heck I've even praised the man (bleurghh)!
Get off the defensive and actually debate rather than being pathetic!
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
A classic TOOR response.
Are you also going to run to admin to get me banned off your board for debating?!
Are you sure u are a grown man?
Geez
After a game, emotions are always running high and you end up frustrated and exacerbated and it certainly takes its toll, especially after the QPR game. I was absolutely devastated by that as a fan.
Personally I think that, although we've had so many new players, they should have been managed in such a way that they didn't disrupt the flow from last season. We were playing so so well towards the end of last season so why did Kenny feel the need to change a winning formula, spending buckets of money to do so? The phasing in of the newbies should have been better managed and it's been poor this season, contributing to what I believe to be our downfall.
Also the tactics have been baffling, with the current players, Suarez is just not functioning as a lone striker yet we continue to play him there and it never works, Carroll hits a patch of form and is dropped, Adam played despite being so low on form and confidence (his injury could be a blessing in disguise for him, as he doesn't work without Lucas) and some of the bizarre substitutions and let's not forget 5 at the back vs Stoke.
What angered me the most, and I said this in January is that we needed to be frank with the squad and accept the fact we don't have somebody putting the ball away and I said we needed to sign a striker, and with the current form of Arsenal and Chelsea back then, fourth was easy obtainable. We chose to stick and it backfired despite the glaring scoring deficiencies of the team. Is this down to stubbornness of the manager? It can't be down to lack of available players as P Cissé, D Cissé, Pogrebnyak, Jelavic, Zamora etc etc were all transferred in January and haven't exactly done badly. I felt the gaping whole in the squad needed to be addressed, at it wasn't. Ian Ayre came out and stated that money was available.
So where do the owners go from here? Kenny has failed to meet their expectations, this is undeniable, and they have a track record of firing people that fail to meet their expectations. In their eyes, they've spent a lot of money and have got much of a return on their investment.
If they do fire Kenny or move him upstairs (something I can see happening) then they have to get a top top manager to rebuild the club, one with time on their side yet a proven track record. I mentioned Guardiola yesterday and still believe that if he wants to leave Barcelona we could get him in on a long term project to rebuild a sleeping giant. Obviously it's a long shot but I don't see why we shouldn't at least try?
If they do fire Kenny or move him upstairs (something I can see happening) then they have to get a top top manager to rebuild the club, one with time on their side yet a proven track record. I mentioned Guardiola yesterday and still believe that if he wants to leave Barcelona we could get him in on a long term project to rebuild a sleeping giant. Obviously it's a long shot but I don't see why we shouldn't at least try?
-----------------------------------------------------
Not even worth trying in all honesty. He doesnt even do long term contracts.
You sure you're thinking of the right person and not Mourinho, leiva?
Jesus TOOR, give it a rest eh? If you want a Liverpool only board there's plenty of forums out there that offer that service, personally I'm just glad to get a post from a rival fan that's not littered in smileys.
Agreed Didi, United fans on the whole usually are pretty constructive although Fergie some of the posters on your board react pretty adversely to me on there
"You sure you're thinking of the right person and not Mourinho, leiva?"
Nope...same guy you speaking about.
Pep's contracts with Barca have always been one year rolling contracts
That could also be to do with Barcelona being smart...
In fairness he has still been there for a few years. I can't name anybody else (Rafa aside) that I'd really want in the job.
Guardiola wouldn't touch us with a 10 foot barge pole, he's one of the highest rated managers in the world and right now we are a mid-table side.
Could you imagine him trying to instill his one-touch 5-a-side philosophy with players like Kuyt, Carroll and Carragher?
Didi.
We've have to give him enough of a budget to rebuild the team in his image of course and then give him time but at his age with his recent success he can have all the time he wants!
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Kenny In/Out?
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posted on 23/3/12
I'm definitely B, but I don't necessarily question other fans loyalty just their intellectual capability.
You can't just buy a few players and expect to win the league straight away without going mental with the money like City are and like Chelsea did, and before some idiot starts spouting about how much we've spent they need to take into account the ridiculous wages being spewed out by these clubs.
It's okay spending to buy, hopefully you can get that back when you sell him on, but if you give a player £150K a week on a 5 year contract well that's £39M that the club will never see again.
Sometimes people forget that it took Shanks about 5 seasons to win his first League title and about the same for furrgy.
posted on 23/3/12
I agree to a degree, I never expected us to win or even challenge for the title. I did however expect more from the team this year. I accept players need time to settle, and the signings aren't my biggest issue. I feel Caroll should be much more involved than he is and Henderson needs to be playing less. He looks a player bereft of confidence and should be given more protection by Kenny, playing fewer games.
posted on 23/3/12
To an extent I am B. Although I accept that other supporters have a right to their opinion, even if it differs from mine.
However, whilst I am in agreement that Kenny should be given time; I do think that he needs to stand up and admit he has made some huge mistakes with tactics and selection.
He needs to be man enough to look at things, openly say "I got this or that wrong", and be prepared to change what is wrong instead of doggedly sticking with the way some things are at the moment.
posted on 23/3/12
At the start of the season I expected top 4, not the league, that was silly but with the signings made I thought we would make the step up, now if a lot of fellow reds felt the same (and they did on this board whatever the may say now)then were we all wrong, like Kenny is said to be now the players aren't performing?
This is before we get in to the debate about it being sabermetrics/Camolli/Kenny who actually sanctioned the buys. Kenny can be blamed for some tactical decisions but the way we have played and dominated the games I don't think anyone could of envisaged we'd make so many chances and just not put them away, everyone thought/hoped this would be Carroll's season and it's just not happened.
Having said all this my personal opinion is Kenny may go at the end of the season, FSG are on record as saying 4th was the minimum expected, everyone also seems to forget that Kenny had to convince the owners he was right for the job after being out for so long.
Long and short, he probably deserves more time but I'm not convinced he will get it
posted on 23/3/12
At the start of the season I expected top 4, not the league, that was silly but with the signings made I thought we would make the step up, now if a lot of fellow reds felt the same (and they did on this board whatever the may say now)
........................
I have pointed this out as well, this isn't to say Kenny is doing a bad job but I think it must have either been that or a lot of fans were overly optimistic about what their team was capable off.
Solid B) for me
posted on 23/3/12
So it's either A or B
Or C if you are the OP.
At the end of the day the owners will look at the facts (I may sound a bit Rafa-ish now). We, whether it be Kenny or Commoli have sound a ton of cash and the best we've got to show for it is a couple of average players. And more than a couple of $h!t players. We will not finish higher than last year, we will score less goals, possibly be lower down the league and if we are lucky we might just stay above Swansea and Hogsons WBA. We are average, most of our players are average and our final league position will reflect how average we are. I'll be shocked if the owners don't take action in the summer.
Personally I think Kenny hasn't done a good enough job, Commoli hasn't done a good enough job and every player from Reina through Carroll hasn't done a good enough job.
I will always support the club and I have every right to moan when they cause me such heartache. I'm just glad I'm not the one that has to sort this mid table mess out.
posted on 23/3/12
I totally agree with Super Injunction's
'Kenny may go at the end of the season, FSG are on record as saying 4th was the minimum expected, everyone also seems to forget that Kenny had to convince the owners he was right for the job after being out for so long.
Long and short, he probably deserves more time but I'm not convinced he will get it'.
FSG, I think, will ignore the trophy (/ies, as the FA cup is certainly the prime objective for us this season now) and wield the axe come May.
It may depend on an available manager, and I've always fancied Mourinho has liked the look of us, regardless of what we've become in recent seasons. Chelsea, Inter and Madrid were always easy jobs for him because they had a decent core and money to spend. I think if he wins the CL & title this season with Madrid, he may look for a new challenge, and what better challenge to take on than another famous European club fallen slightly below the radar. It may appeal to his ego; to take Liverpool back to the top, and I'm sure he'd have a decent transfer kitty to improve in areas we badly need improvement.
Of course, this is hypothetical and the likelihood of getting him is slim to none, but if there's a manager out there who would like a challenge to get us back into the elite, then I think FSG will try to lure him. As much as I think next season could be the one that makes or breaks Kenny's second spell in charge, I simply can't see him getting it. Modern football is largely built on fickleness in the quest immediate success. Kenny had that success when he came in last season, but will the fickleness of not achieving a top 4 spot this season also remove him? I think so, but whatever happens, Kenny will remain a legend always and can be thanked for bringing back the feel good factor last season and some silverware this.
posted on 23/3/12
Thanks for the Plastic Chelsea dig OP
Coming form a supporter <fan> of the original and biggest plastic club out there, I take that' as a compliment
posted on 23/3/12
Even those that were expecting us to get 4th are slightly mental. 4th was always going to be a though ask.
Yes with Arsenal & Chelsea indifferent season, we may have missed a golden opportunity but people are forgetting that there are 6 (fairly new) first teamers in the current first 11. And now they expect everything to fall into place. It was never going to happen.
Add to this, Gerrard's injuries, Lucas being out, Suarez ban and now Agger's injury, its only going to get more difficult.
Yes Kenny has made mistakes, but this is his first full season in management after something like 10years. Cut the man some slack. Im not saying dont criticize, but atleast be rational when doing so.
These fickle fans are just causing more pressure than anything else. This season was gone as soon as the final whistle blew at the Arsenal game. FA Cup requires our focus now...and start building for next season.
posted on 23/3/12
My view is that personally I'm not sure why he doesn't do the right thing. He has done what was required and that is to bring order to the chaotic ship after hodgsen Gillette and hicks and had a good cup season, but i think he is way out of his depth managing at this level in this era after so long out but he is a stubborn man and I do think he is trying to stick around on a personal level because of what SAF had done with united.
It really must get under his skin because when he left LFC and it's record, it looked like it was never going to be touched and now it has, he won't walk away because of his ego, but (and here's to hoping that his personal agenda and ego as a united fan causes more harm to your club than good), but as a viewer from outside the KOP I can honestly see that happening! (The last bit being said with rivalries aside!)
posted on 23/3/12
We dont need Wums to tell us what to do with our club
its a solid b)
I think the wums feel because our club is UNITED that they view Kenny as a threat, and he is the only one capable of knocking whiskey face off his perch !!!
posted on 23/3/12
I would say I'm in between also. I'd be happy with a change of manager as I think Kenny has shown that tactically, he leaves a lot to be desired. However I wouldn't be too unhappy if he were to stay and get another year, so as he has a chance to improve. If anybody deserves another chance, it's Kenny.
posted on 23/3/12
We dont need Wums to tell us what to do with our club
its a solid b)
I think the wums feel because our club is UNITED that they view Kenny as a threat, and he is the only one capable of knocking whiskey face off his perch !!!
-------------
Why so defensive? (If your comments are aimed at me)
I haven't wummed in my post. I've simply said it from the perspective of an outsider. Heck I've even praised the man (bleurghh)!
Get off the defensive and actually debate rather than being pathetic!
posted on 23/3/12
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 23/3/12
A classic TOOR response.
Are you also going to run to admin to get me banned off your board for debating?!
Are you sure u are a grown man?
Geez
posted on 23/3/12
After a game, emotions are always running high and you end up frustrated and exacerbated and it certainly takes its toll, especially after the QPR game. I was absolutely devastated by that as a fan.
Personally I think that, although we've had so many new players, they should have been managed in such a way that they didn't disrupt the flow from last season. We were playing so so well towards the end of last season so why did Kenny feel the need to change a winning formula, spending buckets of money to do so? The phasing in of the newbies should have been better managed and it's been poor this season, contributing to what I believe to be our downfall.
Also the tactics have been baffling, with the current players, Suarez is just not functioning as a lone striker yet we continue to play him there and it never works, Carroll hits a patch of form and is dropped, Adam played despite being so low on form and confidence (his injury could be a blessing in disguise for him, as he doesn't work without Lucas) and some of the bizarre substitutions and let's not forget 5 at the back vs Stoke.
What angered me the most, and I said this in January is that we needed to be frank with the squad and accept the fact we don't have somebody putting the ball away and I said we needed to sign a striker, and with the current form of Arsenal and Chelsea back then, fourth was easy obtainable. We chose to stick and it backfired despite the glaring scoring deficiencies of the team. Is this down to stubbornness of the manager? It can't be down to lack of available players as P Cissé, D Cissé, Pogrebnyak, Jelavic, Zamora etc etc were all transferred in January and haven't exactly done badly. I felt the gaping whole in the squad needed to be addressed, at it wasn't. Ian Ayre came out and stated that money was available.
So where do the owners go from here? Kenny has failed to meet their expectations, this is undeniable, and they have a track record of firing people that fail to meet their expectations. In their eyes, they've spent a lot of money and have got much of a return on their investment.
If they do fire Kenny or move him upstairs (something I can see happening) then they have to get a top top manager to rebuild the club, one with time on their side yet a proven track record. I mentioned Guardiola yesterday and still believe that if he wants to leave Barcelona we could get him in on a long term project to rebuild a sleeping giant. Obviously it's a long shot but I don't see why we shouldn't at least try?
posted on 23/3/12
If they do fire Kenny or move him upstairs (something I can see happening) then they have to get a top top manager to rebuild the club, one with time on their side yet a proven track record. I mentioned Guardiola yesterday and still believe that if he wants to leave Barcelona we could get him in on a long term project to rebuild a sleeping giant. Obviously it's a long shot but I don't see why we shouldn't at least try?
-----------------------------------------------------
Not even worth trying in all honesty. He doesnt even do long term contracts.
posted on 23/3/12
You sure you're thinking of the right person and not Mourinho, leiva?
posted on 23/3/12
Jesus TOOR, give it a rest eh? If you want a Liverpool only board there's plenty of forums out there that offer that service, personally I'm just glad to get a post from a rival fan that's not littered in smileys.
posted on 23/3/12
Cheers didi
posted on 23/3/12
Agreed Didi, United fans on the whole usually are pretty constructive although Fergie some of the posters on your board react pretty adversely to me on there
posted on 23/3/12
"You sure you're thinking of the right person and not Mourinho, leiva?"
Nope...same guy you speaking about.
Pep's contracts with Barca have always been one year rolling contracts
posted on 23/3/12
That could also be to do with Barcelona being smart...
In fairness he has still been there for a few years. I can't name anybody else (Rafa aside) that I'd really want in the job.
posted on 23/3/12
Guardiola wouldn't touch us with a 10 foot barge pole, he's one of the highest rated managers in the world and right now we are a mid-table side.
Could you imagine him trying to instill his one-touch 5-a-side philosophy with players like Kuyt, Carroll and Carragher?
posted on 23/3/12
Didi.
We've have to give him enough of a budget to rebuild the team in his image of course and then give him time but at his age with his recent success he can have all the time he wants!
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