comment by Conn & Duncan..Scottish Legends (U15636)
posted 11 minutes ago
Can’t believe that their are idiots on here, wanting Conte out!!
The fact that we are conceding 3 goals at home, & constantly going behind in matches, is nothing to do with Conte, ffs…
It’s the defence & Lloris… only a blind person can’t see that.
The likes of Dier, Doherty, Sanchez, Royal, Davies aren’t good enough for a top 4-6 side.
That’s too many bad defenders in one team
Lloris kicking & slow distribution is horrendous also.
We never had this problem when Walker, Alderwierld, Vertonghen & Rose were playing. They’ve been replaced by utter sh*te!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This post is hysterical π
So the fact that so many many of our players are playing badly is down entirely to those individuals and not the manager for setting up in a way that doesn’t suit them? If we’re so defensively abject then why is our style built on resilience and not conceding goals? If we played on the front foot and controlled games more, our defence wouldn’t be under the cosh so much.
Most of those players you listed played under Poch, who didn’t have them conceding this many because our game plan was built on controlling games and playing in the oppositions half.
Conte’s style only works when you have absolute dynamite defenders like the ones constructed by Simeone at Atletico. We’re never going to to get those types of players and not do most of us want that. It’s far better to exploit our strengths. Control games, defend from the front, focus on scoring rather than not conceding.
Honestly for you to give us all grief from not backing Conte is becoming more and more ridiculous. If your opinion is in an increasing minority, it’s time to look inwards and question your own beliefs. If the whole world told me I was wrong, I’d at least consider it. The more spurs fans there are calling for his head, the more it naturally becomes the right decision.
Can't keep playing like this and getting results:
Keeps playing like this and getting results
comment by Brother (U20548)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted about a minute ago
comment by Citizen Smeg. North London is alwhite (U6574)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Brother (U20548)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted about a minute ago
comment by grandspurs (U3810)
posted 26 seconds ago
Thank you to the 'Conte out' jinxers
If you think another lucky win will change my mind then you must be joking yes we won but I still want him gone and a manager that is going to live up to Levy's boast of good football coming back to the lane
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was only a joke mate, but yes it was a fairly lucky though deserved win. At least it shows the team have a lot of heart in them still. You can't say Conte is losing the dressing room or anything like that. What you can say is the team/defence needs more work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If we signed a top centre back and Conte played Spence his tactics could actually work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Spence thing is just bizarre and the one main point you can criticise Conte for. If he's being deliberately stubborn or making his point to the club not to get signings he doesn't wish for, then he's gone well overboard with it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I just cannot forgive the constant selection of royal. Again he was at fault for their first goal. Again all the attack came down our right.
Just get rid of him. Play spence. I cannot believe spence could possibly be worse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Spence played against Forest and did absolutely no worse than your average Royal performance. And even if Spence did worse I would forgive him and put it down to having all his confidence taken out of him by the lack of starts.
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He did well I hear?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He did well, apart from one Royal type moment where he made a poor attempted pass.
comment by Brother (U20548)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by LukaBrasi COYS (U22178)
posted about a minute ago
Antonio Conte's first 38 games under Tottenham have yielded him his highest points tally of any club he's managed in his career so far.
Yikes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Today was a return to form in terms of playing badly and getting results. Unless we drop sharply down the league, Conte isn't getting sacked.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s not getting sacked, but will he sign a new contract?
Once Conte gets the defenders he requires, then judge him. No matter what tactics/formation you play… we will still concede…
Even Sir Alex Ferguson would struggle with this defence.
Once Conte gets the defenders he requires, then judge him. No matter what tactics/formation you play… we will still concede…
Thats rubbish.
We know how bad ROyal is but Conte picks him repeatedly. Ok Doherty is nothing special but he is better.
Dier is total rubbish but Conte picks him instead of going to 4 at the back and playing an extra man in midfield which would relieve the continued pressure on our defence but Conte sticks with 3 central defenders even tho we dont have 3 that can defend.
Even today Dier at fault for two of the goals but Lenglet gets taken off? Really.
We have seen him carry on picking Sess even tho 99% of us think he is nowhere near good enough. Is all that down to the players as well?
The whole thing is a joke we were playing Leeds not Real Madrid but still spent the majority of the game pinned in our own half. Ridiculous.
As for getting the defenders he wants well anybody could manage if all they did was use a cheque book and bought the best players around. He knows we cannot do that and we never will. He spent quite enough over the summer for us to not be behind 3 times on our own ground to fecking Leeds.
comment by grandspurs (U3810)
posted 8 minutes ago
Once Conte gets the defenders he requires, then judge him. No matter what tactics/formation you play… we will still concede…
Thats rubbish.
We know how bad ROyal is but Conte picks him repeatedly. Ok Doherty is nothing special but he is better.
Dier is total rubbish but Conte picks him instead of going to 4 at the back and playing an extra man in midfield which would relieve the continued pressure on our defence but Conte sticks with 3 central defenders even tho we dont have 3 that can defend.
Even today Dier at fault for two of the goals but Lenglet gets taken off? Really.
We have seen him carry on picking Sess even tho 99% of us think he is nowhere near good enough. Is all that down to the players as well?
The whole thing is a joke we were playing Leeds not Real Madrid but still spent the majority of the game pinned in our own half. Ridiculous.
As for getting the defenders he wants well anybody could manage if all they did was use a cheque book and bought the best players around. He knows we cannot do that and we never will. He spent quite enough over the summer for us to not be behind 3 times on our own ground to fecking Leeds.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
π bravo!!! Superb post.
Lads were third and topped our CL group - manager must be schitt hey.
Conte has got us that far with the worst defence since lieutenant George in Blackadder goes forth
Conte has got us that far with the worst defence since lieutenant George in Blackadder goes forth
On that reasoning Harry Rednapp must be a world class tactician as he got us into the CL for the first time with a win away to City.
hengy I am actually surprised at you. Out of the posters on here I actually had you down as one of the more knowledgable ones but I obviously judged badly.
If you can actually support and justify the way we play and the team selections then you are nowhere near as knowledgable as I thought you were.
I like conte and will give him my backing till the end of the season and then see where we are.
If never like the back 3 tactics and tbh never like any of our defenders bar Romero.
Overall im happy with results as 4th and through our CL group is fantastic but yes performances aren’t pretty.
Let’s see how we do after the World Cup with a fully fit Kulusevski and Romero.
Hopefully a new CB too.
I like conte and will give him my backing till the end of the season and then see where we are.
I had massive hopes for this season with Conte's reputation and CV but to be honest I cannot stand a whiner or somebody full of excuses and thats what he is and does.
Combine that with his insistence on picking the likes of Royal and Sess and I wont give a damn if he goes for sure
Grand - still think Kane’s a mid-table striker at best?
Grand - still think Kane’s a mid-table striker at best?
That has been proved wrong a million times but carry on
I think what a lot of people miss is the fact that under Poch we had a very small squad that massively overachieved and it was never invested in (and the players we did sign under Poch socked). The small squad got older and then we got worse and worse.
Only recently we’ve had the money to invest again and as a result we do have big holes in our squad that we are trying to fix but it’s a 4/5 window process.
We are now getting younger and better as a team, and otherwise would’ve been able to better cope with misses like Royal.
This season the schedule has been absolutely ridiculous and Conte has chosen for us conserve energy first half of games so that we can cope throughout the rest of the fixture list. It’s no coincidence that every other CL side has looked really tired.
Conte never plays nice football, but he gets results and is far more from progressive than Jose in the modern game. I think he’s doing a very good job (bar picking Royal and not giving more players a rest in the LC) and I know that Klopp and Pep would struggle with the likes of Sanchez or Royal or Doherty etc in their teams
This season the schedule has been absolutely ridiculous and Conte has chosen for us conserve energy first half of games
Are you for real?
So to conserve energy the best way is to go 2 goals down in the first half then chase the game in the second half? Really?
Two games a week is a gruelling schedule? Average wage £70'000 a week and its gruelling to play 180 minutes of football a week.
You may fall for that bollox but I think its another round of excuses. What about all these non league players that work as brickies or plasters all day then also play two games a week? I think thats a far harder schedule personally.
He clearly doesn’t plan for us to go 2 down, we just do
I also know you don’t understand the fitness/conditioning of professional athletes so there’s not point me discussing with you. The fact that you brought up how much money they are on is facking hilarious though . I got a pay rise the other week so I’m not able to run 10% further now
The how much they earn to play thing is such a moronic thing
comment by grandspurs (U3810)
posted 35 minutes ago
Grand - still think Kane’s a mid-table striker at best?
That has been proved wrong a million times but carry on
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proved wrong?
I got a pay rise the other week so I’m not able to run 10% further now
When all you have to do is train, which in a hectic schedule would be lighter, and play twice a week its hardly gruelling is it.
Have you ever worked 40/50 hours a week at a full time job and played high level competitive football as well? Working all day on a building site getting away at about 16.30 to meet up at 17.00 to face a 2 hour coach trip somewhere, then play for 90 minutes or possibly 120 then a 2 hour journey back gettin home at 02.00 am knowing you need to be up for work at 06.00. Now thats a gruelling schedule and dont think non league is not damned tough because it is.
comment by grandspurs (U3810)
posted about 12 hours ago
I got a pay rise the other week so I’m not able to run 10% further now
When all you have to do is train, which in a hectic schedule would be lighter, and play twice a week its hardly gruelling is it.
Have you ever worked 40/50 hours a week at a full time job and played high level competitive football as well? Working all day on a building site getting away at about 16.30 to meet up at 17.00 to face a 2 hour coach trip somewhere, then play for 90 minutes or possibly 120 then a 2 hour journey back gettin home at 02.00 am knowing you need to be up for work at 06.00. Now thats a gruelling schedule and dont think non league is not damned tough because it is.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Can't be high level competitive football if mans are working full time then playing.
If they are working on a building site then they would not be 100% fit before stepping on the pitch.
You are talking about two different worlds. Semi professional and professional football.
comment by grandspurs (U3810)
posted 13 hours, 22 minutes ago
This season the schedule has been absolutely ridiculous and Conte has chosen for us conserve energy first half of games
Are you for real?
So to conserve energy the best way is to go 2 goals down in the first half then chase the game in the second half? Really?
Two games a week is a gruelling schedule? Average wage £70'000 a week and its gruelling to play 180 minutes of football a week.
You may fall for that bollox but I think its another round of excuses. What about all these non league players that work as brickies or plasters all day then also play two games a week? I think thats a far harder schedule personally.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The false equivalence is strong with this one
You are talking about two different worlds. Semi professional and professional football.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No you are right semi pro managers dont whine because they realise that playing lots of games indicates certain level of success as the poor sides go out of cup games at the first round. A bit like us at Forest really.
You are talking about two different worlds. Semi professional and professional football.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A little history lesson for you. Back in I think it was 1984 or so when pitches were hard to play on and a tackle could still be felt 3 weeks later one top level team had something like 9 games in 24 days at the end of the season and still had a european final to play.
One of their players was interviewed on TV and the reporter commented on what a gruelling time it was with so many games in such a short time. The player just looked at him and said "no getting up at 5am starting at 6am welding sheets of steel in a boat yard for 12 hours a day now thats hard work. Playing football and getting paid for it is not work its fantastic.
That player was Graham Roberts who captained us to the the Uefa Cup two weeks after that interview and we had signed him from Weymouth a matter of months earlier. Yes Weymouth SEMI PRO and he did not think games 2 or 3 days apart were a problem. Maybe people on here know better having done all that.
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Tottenham - LIVE Match Thread
Page 10399 of 11793
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posted on 12/11/22
comment by Conn & Duncan..Scottish Legends (U15636)
posted 11 minutes ago
Can’t believe that their are idiots on here, wanting Conte out!!
The fact that we are conceding 3 goals at home, & constantly going behind in matches, is nothing to do with Conte, ffs…
It’s the defence & Lloris… only a blind person can’t see that.
The likes of Dier, Doherty, Sanchez, Royal, Davies aren’t good enough for a top 4-6 side.
That’s too many bad defenders in one team
Lloris kicking & slow distribution is horrendous also.
We never had this problem when Walker, Alderwierld, Vertonghen & Rose were playing. They’ve been replaced by utter sh*te!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This post is hysterical π
So the fact that so many many of our players are playing badly is down entirely to those individuals and not the manager for setting up in a way that doesn’t suit them? If we’re so defensively abject then why is our style built on resilience and not conceding goals? If we played on the front foot and controlled games more, our defence wouldn’t be under the cosh so much.
Most of those players you listed played under Poch, who didn’t have them conceding this many because our game plan was built on controlling games and playing in the oppositions half.
Conte’s style only works when you have absolute dynamite defenders like the ones constructed by Simeone at Atletico. We’re never going to to get those types of players and not do most of us want that. It’s far better to exploit our strengths. Control games, defend from the front, focus on scoring rather than not conceding.
Honestly for you to give us all grief from not backing Conte is becoming more and more ridiculous. If your opinion is in an increasing minority, it’s time to look inwards and question your own beliefs. If the whole world told me I was wrong, I’d at least consider it. The more spurs fans there are calling for his head, the more it naturally becomes the right decision.
posted on 12/11/22
Can't keep playing like this and getting results:
Keeps playing like this and getting results
posted on 12/11/22
comment by Brother (U20548)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted about a minute ago
comment by Citizen Smeg. North London is alwhite (U6574)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Brother (U20548)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted about a minute ago
comment by grandspurs (U3810)
posted 26 seconds ago
Thank you to the 'Conte out' jinxers
If you think another lucky win will change my mind then you must be joking yes we won but I still want him gone and a manager that is going to live up to Levy's boast of good football coming back to the lane
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was only a joke mate, but yes it was a fairly lucky though deserved win. At least it shows the team have a lot of heart in them still. You can't say Conte is losing the dressing room or anything like that. What you can say is the team/defence needs more work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If we signed a top centre back and Conte played Spence his tactics could actually work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Spence thing is just bizarre and the one main point you can criticise Conte for. If he's being deliberately stubborn or making his point to the club not to get signings he doesn't wish for, then he's gone well overboard with it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I just cannot forgive the constant selection of royal. Again he was at fault for their first goal. Again all the attack came down our right.
Just get rid of him. Play spence. I cannot believe spence could possibly be worse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Spence played against Forest and did absolutely no worse than your average Royal performance. And even if Spence did worse I would forgive him and put it down to having all his confidence taken out of him by the lack of starts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He did well I hear?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He did well, apart from one Royal type moment where he made a poor attempted pass.
posted on 12/11/22
comment by Brother (U20548)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by LukaBrasi COYS (U22178)
posted about a minute ago
Antonio Conte's first 38 games under Tottenham have yielded him his highest points tally of any club he's managed in his career so far.
Yikes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Today was a return to form in terms of playing badly and getting results. Unless we drop sharply down the league, Conte isn't getting sacked.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s not getting sacked, but will he sign a new contract?
posted on 12/11/22
Once Conte gets the defenders he requires, then judge him. No matter what tactics/formation you play… we will still concede…
Even Sir Alex Ferguson would struggle with this defence.
posted on 12/11/22
Once Conte gets the defenders he requires, then judge him. No matter what tactics/formation you play… we will still concede…
Thats rubbish.
We know how bad ROyal is but Conte picks him repeatedly. Ok Doherty is nothing special but he is better.
Dier is total rubbish but Conte picks him instead of going to 4 at the back and playing an extra man in midfield which would relieve the continued pressure on our defence but Conte sticks with 3 central defenders even tho we dont have 3 that can defend.
Even today Dier at fault for two of the goals but Lenglet gets taken off? Really.
We have seen him carry on picking Sess even tho 99% of us think he is nowhere near good enough. Is all that down to the players as well?
The whole thing is a joke we were playing Leeds not Real Madrid but still spent the majority of the game pinned in our own half. Ridiculous.
As for getting the defenders he wants well anybody could manage if all they did was use a cheque book and bought the best players around. He knows we cannot do that and we never will. He spent quite enough over the summer for us to not be behind 3 times on our own ground to fecking Leeds.
posted on 12/11/22
comment by grandspurs (U3810)
posted 8 minutes ago
Once Conte gets the defenders he requires, then judge him. No matter what tactics/formation you play… we will still concede…
Thats rubbish.
We know how bad ROyal is but Conte picks him repeatedly. Ok Doherty is nothing special but he is better.
Dier is total rubbish but Conte picks him instead of going to 4 at the back and playing an extra man in midfield which would relieve the continued pressure on our defence but Conte sticks with 3 central defenders even tho we dont have 3 that can defend.
Even today Dier at fault for two of the goals but Lenglet gets taken off? Really.
We have seen him carry on picking Sess even tho 99% of us think he is nowhere near good enough. Is all that down to the players as well?
The whole thing is a joke we were playing Leeds not Real Madrid but still spent the majority of the game pinned in our own half. Ridiculous.
As for getting the defenders he wants well anybody could manage if all they did was use a cheque book and bought the best players around. He knows we cannot do that and we never will. He spent quite enough over the summer for us to not be behind 3 times on our own ground to fecking Leeds.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
π bravo!!! Superb post.
posted on 12/11/22
Lads were third and topped our CL group - manager must be schitt hey.
Conte has got us that far with the worst defence since lieutenant George in Blackadder goes forth
posted on 12/11/22
Conte has got us that far with the worst defence since lieutenant George in Blackadder goes forth
On that reasoning Harry Rednapp must be a world class tactician as he got us into the CL for the first time with a win away to City.
posted on 12/11/22
Conteball
posted on 12/11/22
hengy I am actually surprised at you. Out of the posters on here I actually had you down as one of the more knowledgable ones but I obviously judged badly.
If you can actually support and justify the way we play and the team selections then you are nowhere near as knowledgable as I thought you were.
posted on 12/11/22
I like conte and will give him my backing till the end of the season and then see where we are.
If never like the back 3 tactics and tbh never like any of our defenders bar Romero.
Overall im happy with results as 4th and through our CL group is fantastic but yes performances aren’t pretty.
Let’s see how we do after the World Cup with a fully fit Kulusevski and Romero.
Hopefully a new CB too.
posted on 12/11/22
I like conte and will give him my backing till the end of the season and then see where we are.
I had massive hopes for this season with Conte's reputation and CV but to be honest I cannot stand a whiner or somebody full of excuses and thats what he is and does.
Combine that with his insistence on picking the likes of Royal and Sess and I wont give a damn if he goes for sure
posted on 12/11/22
Grand - still think Kane’s a mid-table striker at best?
posted on 12/11/22
Grand - still think Kane’s a mid-table striker at best?
That has been proved wrong a million times but carry on
posted on 12/11/22
I think what a lot of people miss is the fact that under Poch we had a very small squad that massively overachieved and it was never invested in (and the players we did sign under Poch socked). The small squad got older and then we got worse and worse.
Only recently we’ve had the money to invest again and as a result we do have big holes in our squad that we are trying to fix but it’s a 4/5 window process.
We are now getting younger and better as a team, and otherwise would’ve been able to better cope with misses like Royal.
This season the schedule has been absolutely ridiculous and Conte has chosen for us conserve energy first half of games so that we can cope throughout the rest of the fixture list. It’s no coincidence that every other CL side has looked really tired.
Conte never plays nice football, but he gets results and is far more from progressive than Jose in the modern game. I think he’s doing a very good job (bar picking Royal and not giving more players a rest in the LC) and I know that Klopp and Pep would struggle with the likes of Sanchez or Royal or Doherty etc in their teams
posted on 12/11/22
This season the schedule has been absolutely ridiculous and Conte has chosen for us conserve energy first half of games
Are you for real?
So to conserve energy the best way is to go 2 goals down in the first half then chase the game in the second half? Really?
Two games a week is a gruelling schedule? Average wage £70'000 a week and its gruelling to play 180 minutes of football a week.
You may fall for that bollox but I think its another round of excuses. What about all these non league players that work as brickies or plasters all day then also play two games a week? I think thats a far harder schedule personally.
posted on 12/11/22
He clearly doesn’t plan for us to go 2 down, we just do
I also know you don’t understand the fitness/conditioning of professional athletes so there’s not point me discussing with you. The fact that you brought up how much money they are on is facking hilarious though . I got a pay rise the other week so I’m not able to run 10% further now
posted on 12/11/22
The how much they earn to play thing is such a moronic thing
posted on 12/11/22
comment by grandspurs (U3810)
posted 35 minutes ago
Grand - still think Kane’s a mid-table striker at best?
That has been proved wrong a million times but carry on
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proved wrong?
posted on 12/11/22
I got a pay rise the other week so I’m not able to run 10% further now
When all you have to do is train, which in a hectic schedule would be lighter, and play twice a week its hardly gruelling is it.
Have you ever worked 40/50 hours a week at a full time job and played high level competitive football as well? Working all day on a building site getting away at about 16.30 to meet up at 17.00 to face a 2 hour coach trip somewhere, then play for 90 minutes or possibly 120 then a 2 hour journey back gettin home at 02.00 am knowing you need to be up for work at 06.00. Now thats a gruelling schedule and dont think non league is not damned tough because it is.
posted on 13/11/22
comment by grandspurs (U3810)
posted about 12 hours ago
I got a pay rise the other week so I’m not able to run 10% further now
When all you have to do is train, which in a hectic schedule would be lighter, and play twice a week its hardly gruelling is it.
Have you ever worked 40/50 hours a week at a full time job and played high level competitive football as well? Working all day on a building site getting away at about 16.30 to meet up at 17.00 to face a 2 hour coach trip somewhere, then play for 90 minutes or possibly 120 then a 2 hour journey back gettin home at 02.00 am knowing you need to be up for work at 06.00. Now thats a gruelling schedule and dont think non league is not damned tough because it is.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Can't be high level competitive football if mans are working full time then playing.
If they are working on a building site then they would not be 100% fit before stepping on the pitch.
You are talking about two different worlds. Semi professional and professional football.
posted on 13/11/22
comment by grandspurs (U3810)
posted 13 hours, 22 minutes ago
This season the schedule has been absolutely ridiculous and Conte has chosen for us conserve energy first half of games
Are you for real?
So to conserve energy the best way is to go 2 goals down in the first half then chase the game in the second half? Really?
Two games a week is a gruelling schedule? Average wage £70'000 a week and its gruelling to play 180 minutes of football a week.
You may fall for that bollox but I think its another round of excuses. What about all these non league players that work as brickies or plasters all day then also play two games a week? I think thats a far harder schedule personally.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The false equivalence is strong with this one
posted on 13/11/22
You are talking about two different worlds. Semi professional and professional football.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No you are right semi pro managers dont whine because they realise that playing lots of games indicates certain level of success as the poor sides go out of cup games at the first round. A bit like us at Forest really.
posted on 13/11/22
You are talking about two different worlds. Semi professional and professional football.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A little history lesson for you. Back in I think it was 1984 or so when pitches were hard to play on and a tackle could still be felt 3 weeks later one top level team had something like 9 games in 24 days at the end of the season and still had a european final to play.
One of their players was interviewed on TV and the reporter commented on what a gruelling time it was with so many games in such a short time. The player just looked at him and said "no getting up at 5am starting at 6am welding sheets of steel in a boat yard for 12 hours a day now thats hard work. Playing football and getting paid for it is not work its fantastic.
That player was Graham Roberts who captained us to the the Uefa Cup two weeks after that interview and we had signed him from Weymouth a matter of months earlier. Yes Weymouth SEMI PRO and he did not think games 2 or 3 days apart were a problem. Maybe people on here know better having done all that.
Page 10399 of 11793
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