I am not exempting Arab leaders from their role in this mess too. They are culpable, yes. A lot of them are trash.
What I am saying is this whole issue started with western intervention and a colonial project that has impacted absolutely every facet of society in the Arab world.
And we cannot let this detract from people still believing the US is a force for good when it hasn't been.
Samir mate you're going so broad now that noone can be absolved of blame
Your original point was that it's laughable to think America is a force for good, it certainly isn't at the moment
The assertion that it has been and can be again are totally fair and accurate but yes it's going to take a systematic dismantling of some conventions and systems that I doubt I'll see completed in my lifetime
Although a succession of progressive presidents would help
The assertion that it has been and can be again are totally fair and accurate
====
Based on what, though? It's a nation built on slavery. I highly doubt native americans or black people will share this view.
comment by Samir (U2630)
posted 50 seconds ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Samir (U2630)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 19 seconds ago
comment by Samir (U2630)
posted 12 seconds ago
Obama being in charge didn't negate most of those things being a problem. In fact, he actually exacerbated some of them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting that. When are the arabs going to grow up and take responsibility of their own mess?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not a good take. At all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Seriously. They control their own fate. Obama reduced US dependency on oil and the first thing they did was to try destabilise that as much as possible. You may have noticed the Kind of Saud is best friend of Trump. And now the Libyans running to Putin?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To a degree, they need to take ownership too, but to ignore the role the US and even Britain had in partitioning the ME, and then decide which part 'belongs' to which state (with France also getting involved) based on arbitrary lines, which has affected nations, that were predominantly living peacefully, to this day is a total whitewashing of history.
It was and is classic US imperialism that has underpinned a lot of these issues.
I refuse to let anyone tell me otherwise.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No I am not ignoring the issues of colonialism. Western powers have a lot to answer for historically. However that was more than 70 years ago. Those countries have had years to develop. You don't see India in the same mess as the middle east.
There comes a point when the west needs to stop meddling which is what Obama tried. But no one was happy with that either. Ask yourself what do they want?
comment by Samir (U2630)
posted 2 minutes ago
The assertion that it has been and can be again are totally fair and accurate
====
Based on what, though? It's a nation built on slavery. I highly doubt native americans or black people will share this view.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From WW1 onwards:
- biggest factor in protecting the west from fascism and "communism"
- as the largest democracy its played a huge part in stability since WW2
- Northern Ireland peace process
- funding NATO and other peacekeeping forces
All of this can be picked apart and yes it's form of capitalism has lead to huge atrocities carried out by a handful in powerful positions
Your view is filtered through the middle east which makes it come across like you view it as an evil state
J99,
India?
https://theconversation.com/colonialism-was-a-disaster-and-the-facts-prove-it-84496
Read that and see how damaging the lasting effects of colonialism can be. Do you not see that all of those things affects people for generations?
India's economy has grown fast in the last 30 years, but it still has massive issues with poverty, income inequality, treatment of minorities/women and institutionalised corruption.
A lot of the bombing and interventions in the Middle East have been waaay more recent too, which is probably why India doesn't seem to be in as much of a mess...
Who said colonialism was good?
tbf Crouch. People have short memories and America has been thoroughly dispicable since 2016. Which is why I go back to Obama trying to fix Bush's mess even with a hostile Putin to guard against. It will take god knows how long to repair Trump disaster.
The latest rumour coming out of the states is that Bush is planning endorse..........Biden. Just take that in for a minute.
comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 58 seconds ago
comment by Samir (U2630)
posted 2 minutes ago
The assertion that it has been and can be again are totally fair and accurate
====
Based on what, though? It's a nation built on slavery. I highly doubt native americans or black people will share this view.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From WW1 onwards:
- biggest factor in protecting the west from fascism and "communism"
- as the largest democracy its played a huge part in stability since WW2
- Northern Ireland peace process
- funding NATO and other peacekeeping forces
All of this can be picked apart and yes it's form of capitalism has lead to huge atrocities carried out by a handful in powerful positions
Your view is filtered through the middle east which makes it come across like you view it as an evil state
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is an evil state. It was built that way, it has continued to be that way and it still is now.
I'm sorry, but I refuse to buy into this idea that the USA has been a force for good. It is a very powerful country with lots of resources (mostly stolen). That doesn't = good.
comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 49 seconds ago
Who said colonialism was good?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No-one. That wasn't my point.
J99 was saying "it's been over 70 years, national leaders need to be held more accountable". My point is that the effects of colonialism can last for generations (aside from the obvious point of the ME being affected by foreign interventions way more recently than India).
comment by Samir (U2630)
posted 3 minutes ago
J99,
India?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yes. India. Who has you rightly point have had to deal with a massive population and poverty with very few natural resources. And to boot......a democracy which slows down growth compared to say...... China.
You comparing the middle east with a very low population and massive oil wealth? What are they doing with their money? Trying to grow, educate their population, providing health care for all, housing, jobs or building glass cities using slave labour wages where only the very rich can live? Spending billions on a football clubs? While neighbouring countries are starving in inter religious wars and terrorism? yeah that middle east.
"with few natural resources"
comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 15 seconds ago
"with few natural resources"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People like China.
You comparing the middle east with a very low population and massive oil wealth? What are they doing with their money? Trying to grow, educate their population, providing health care for all, housing, jobs or building glass cities using slave labour wages where only the very rich can live? Spending billions on a football clubs? While neighbouring countries are starving in inter religious wars and terrorism? yeah that middle east.
======
Where have I denied that any of these are not issues in the ME? Did you disregard the post where I said Arab leaders have been trash?
Remind me though, who propped up these leaders and families in the first place to be in charge of the ME countries? Oh that's right....
There has always been a vested interest. The leaders in the Arab world have carried off where the colonialists left off. Modernise and westernise the ME by any means possible.
India's major mineral resources include Coal (4th largest reserves in the world), Iron ore, Manganese ore (7th largest reserve in the world as in 2013),[4] Mica, Bauxite (5th largest reserve in the world as in 2013),[5] Chromite, Natural gas, Diamonds, Limestone and Thorium.
First time I think I can remember seeing Winston duck out of a thread.
2020 finally starting to look up...
He scares easily, but his comments will be back and in greater numbers.
Much like the sand people
comment by Samir (U2630)
posted 22 seconds ago
You comparing the middle east with a very low population and massive oil wealth? What are they doing with their money? Trying to grow, educate their population, providing health care for all, housing, jobs or building glass cities using slave labour wages where only the very rich can live? Spending billions on a football clubs? While neighbouring countries are starving in inter religious wars and terrorism? yeah that middle east.
======
Where have I denied that any of these are not issues in the ME? Did you disregard the post where I said Arab leaders have been trash?
Remind me though, who propped up these leaders and families in the first place to be in charge of the ME countries? Oh that's right....
There has always been a vested interest. The leaders in the Arab world have carried off where the colonialists left off. Modernise and westernise the ME by any means possible.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What happened to Egypt when Obama allowed the Arab spring? Or Libya to over throw Gaddafi? And then didn't want to get involved in Syria after seeing the mess made in those two countries. Do you blame Bush for not propping up Saddam? Did you notice how ISIS went of the radar after MBS took over. Where was their money coming from?
Like I said above make up your mind. Interventions do not work. And then same hypocrites blame Obama for allowing Arab spring to happen.
comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 1 minute ago
Much like the sand people
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bit racist
"Trust me, I have a lot more experience and knowledge on this subject than you do"
The most Winston comment ever, remember when he schooled us all on Adidas marketing technique by telling us he knew more but never actually provided Ng if
comment by Samir (U2630)
posted 3 minutes ago
India's major mineral resources include Coal (4th largest reserves in the world), Iron ore, Manganese ore (7th largest reserve in the world as in 2013),[4] Mica, Bauxite (5th largest reserve in the world as in 2013),[5] Chromite, Natural gas, Diamonds, Limestone and Thorium.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not much use without energy reserves. Pretty much similar situation to China. Which is why China are buying out minerals reserves in Africa and South America. Which you'd know a lot more abt.
Shall we move onto the next hot potato?
Why is the BAME cov19 report being delayed?
...I think it's going to somehow find a way to blame "cultural aspects" 🤔
comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 1 second ago
Shall we move onto the next hot potato?
Why is the BAME cov19 report being delayed?
...I think it's going to somehow find a way to blame "cultural aspects" 🤔
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it is a more quite complicated story.
https://twitter.com/ganeshran/status/1266320260543774720
I follow this guy. And it seems, really Covid is specifically a Black issue. The latest data from the NHS.
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Samir (U2630)
posted 22 seconds ago
You comparing the middle east with a very low population and massive oil wealth? What are they doing with their money? Trying to grow, educate their population, providing health care for all, housing, jobs or building glass cities using slave labour wages where only the very rich can live? Spending billions on a football clubs? While neighbouring countries are starving in inter religious wars and terrorism? yeah that middle east.
======
Where have I denied that any of these are not issues in the ME? Did you disregard the post where I said Arab leaders have been trash?
Remind me though, who propped up these leaders and families in the first place to be in charge of the ME countries? Oh that's right....
There has always been a vested interest. The leaders in the Arab world have carried off where the colonialists left off. Modernise and westernise the ME by any means possible.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What happened to Egypt when Obama allowed the Arab spring? Or Libya to over throw Gaddafi? And then didn't want to get involved in Syria after seeing the mess made in those two countries. Do you blame Bush for not propping up Saddam? Did you notice how ISIS went of the radar after MBS took over. Where was their money coming from?
Like I said above make up your mind. Interventions do not work. And then same hypocrites blame Obama for allowing Arab spring to happen.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Make up my mind?
I've literally been saying to you this entire time why I believe intervention has been wrong and made things worse. How has it taken you this long to see that?
If intervention is done in a responsible way i.e. not bombing civilians or sending in the military to take over specific areas, with the intention of protecting civilians and giving them a mandate to govern being the highest principles, then I am in favour of it. History shows that the US have been unable to do that though, so I think they should've stayed away to not make things worse.
By the way, I did my dissertation on the Arab Spring a few years back and let me tell you now, the US were not innocent bystanders in that entire situation. Not by a long stretch.
Sign in if you want to comment
THE Arsenal Thread
Page 21488 of 33630
21489 | 21490 | 21491 | 21492 | 21493
posted on 2/6/20
I am not exempting Arab leaders from their role in this mess too. They are culpable, yes. A lot of them are trash.
What I am saying is this whole issue started with western intervention and a colonial project that has impacted absolutely every facet of society in the Arab world.
And we cannot let this detract from people still believing the US is a force for good when it hasn't been.
posted on 2/6/20
Samir mate you're going so broad now that noone can be absolved of blame
Your original point was that it's laughable to think America is a force for good, it certainly isn't at the moment
The assertion that it has been and can be again are totally fair and accurate but yes it's going to take a systematic dismantling of some conventions and systems that I doubt I'll see completed in my lifetime
Although a succession of progressive presidents would help
posted on 2/6/20
The assertion that it has been and can be again are totally fair and accurate
====
Based on what, though? It's a nation built on slavery. I highly doubt native americans or black people will share this view.
posted on 2/6/20
comment by Samir (U2630)
posted 50 seconds ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Samir (U2630)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 19 seconds ago
comment by Samir (U2630)
posted 12 seconds ago
Obama being in charge didn't negate most of those things being a problem. In fact, he actually exacerbated some of them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting that. When are the arabs going to grow up and take responsibility of their own mess?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not a good take. At all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Seriously. They control their own fate. Obama reduced US dependency on oil and the first thing they did was to try destabilise that as much as possible. You may have noticed the Kind of Saud is best friend of Trump. And now the Libyans running to Putin?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To a degree, they need to take ownership too, but to ignore the role the US and even Britain had in partitioning the ME, and then decide which part 'belongs' to which state (with France also getting involved) based on arbitrary lines, which has affected nations, that were predominantly living peacefully, to this day is a total whitewashing of history.
It was and is classic US imperialism that has underpinned a lot of these issues.
I refuse to let anyone tell me otherwise.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No I am not ignoring the issues of colonialism. Western powers have a lot to answer for historically. However that was more than 70 years ago. Those countries have had years to develop. You don't see India in the same mess as the middle east.
There comes a point when the west needs to stop meddling which is what Obama tried. But no one was happy with that either. Ask yourself what do they want?
posted on 2/6/20
comment by Samir (U2630)
posted 2 minutes ago
The assertion that it has been and can be again are totally fair and accurate
====
Based on what, though? It's a nation built on slavery. I highly doubt native americans or black people will share this view.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From WW1 onwards:
- biggest factor in protecting the west from fascism and "communism"
- as the largest democracy its played a huge part in stability since WW2
- Northern Ireland peace process
- funding NATO and other peacekeeping forces
All of this can be picked apart and yes it's form of capitalism has lead to huge atrocities carried out by a handful in powerful positions
Your view is filtered through the middle east which makes it come across like you view it as an evil state
posted on 2/6/20
J99,
India?
https://theconversation.com/colonialism-was-a-disaster-and-the-facts-prove-it-84496
Read that and see how damaging the lasting effects of colonialism can be. Do you not see that all of those things affects people for generations?
India's economy has grown fast in the last 30 years, but it still has massive issues with poverty, income inequality, treatment of minorities/women and institutionalised corruption.
A lot of the bombing and interventions in the Middle East have been waaay more recent too, which is probably why India doesn't seem to be in as much of a mess...
posted on 2/6/20
Who said colonialism was good?
posted on 2/6/20
tbf Crouch. People have short memories and America has been thoroughly dispicable since 2016. Which is why I go back to Obama trying to fix Bush's mess even with a hostile Putin to guard against. It will take god knows how long to repair Trump disaster.
The latest rumour coming out of the states is that Bush is planning endorse..........Biden. Just take that in for a minute.
posted on 2/6/20
comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 58 seconds ago
comment by Samir (U2630)
posted 2 minutes ago
The assertion that it has been and can be again are totally fair and accurate
====
Based on what, though? It's a nation built on slavery. I highly doubt native americans or black people will share this view.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From WW1 onwards:
- biggest factor in protecting the west from fascism and "communism"
- as the largest democracy its played a huge part in stability since WW2
- Northern Ireland peace process
- funding NATO and other peacekeeping forces
All of this can be picked apart and yes it's form of capitalism has lead to huge atrocities carried out by a handful in powerful positions
Your view is filtered through the middle east which makes it come across like you view it as an evil state
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is an evil state. It was built that way, it has continued to be that way and it still is now.
I'm sorry, but I refuse to buy into this idea that the USA has been a force for good. It is a very powerful country with lots of resources (mostly stolen). That doesn't = good.
posted on 2/6/20
comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 49 seconds ago
Who said colonialism was good?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No-one. That wasn't my point.
J99 was saying "it's been over 70 years, national leaders need to be held more accountable". My point is that the effects of colonialism can last for generations (aside from the obvious point of the ME being affected by foreign interventions way more recently than India).
posted on 2/6/20
comment by Samir (U2630)
posted 3 minutes ago
J99,
India?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yes. India. Who has you rightly point have had to deal with a massive population and poverty with very few natural resources. And to boot......a democracy which slows down growth compared to say...... China.
You comparing the middle east with a very low population and massive oil wealth? What are they doing with their money? Trying to grow, educate their population, providing health care for all, housing, jobs or building glass cities using slave labour wages where only the very rich can live? Spending billions on a football clubs? While neighbouring countries are starving in inter religious wars and terrorism? yeah that middle east.
posted on 2/6/20
"with few natural resources"
posted on 2/6/20
comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 15 seconds ago
"with few natural resources"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People like China.
posted on 2/6/20
You comparing the middle east with a very low population and massive oil wealth? What are they doing with their money? Trying to grow, educate their population, providing health care for all, housing, jobs or building glass cities using slave labour wages where only the very rich can live? Spending billions on a football clubs? While neighbouring countries are starving in inter religious wars and terrorism? yeah that middle east.
======
Where have I denied that any of these are not issues in the ME? Did you disregard the post where I said Arab leaders have been trash?
Remind me though, who propped up these leaders and families in the first place to be in charge of the ME countries? Oh that's right....
There has always been a vested interest. The leaders in the Arab world have carried off where the colonialists left off. Modernise and westernise the ME by any means possible.
posted on 2/6/20
India's major mineral resources include Coal (4th largest reserves in the world), Iron ore, Manganese ore (7th largest reserve in the world as in 2013),[4] Mica, Bauxite (5th largest reserve in the world as in 2013),[5] Chromite, Natural gas, Diamonds, Limestone and Thorium.
posted on 2/6/20
First time I think I can remember seeing Winston duck out of a thread.
2020 finally starting to look up...
posted on 2/6/20
He scares easily, but his comments will be back and in greater numbers.
posted on 2/6/20
Much like the sand people
posted on 2/6/20
comment by Samir (U2630)
posted 22 seconds ago
You comparing the middle east with a very low population and massive oil wealth? What are they doing with their money? Trying to grow, educate their population, providing health care for all, housing, jobs or building glass cities using slave labour wages where only the very rich can live? Spending billions on a football clubs? While neighbouring countries are starving in inter religious wars and terrorism? yeah that middle east.
======
Where have I denied that any of these are not issues in the ME? Did you disregard the post where I said Arab leaders have been trash?
Remind me though, who propped up these leaders and families in the first place to be in charge of the ME countries? Oh that's right....
There has always been a vested interest. The leaders in the Arab world have carried off where the colonialists left off. Modernise and westernise the ME by any means possible.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What happened to Egypt when Obama allowed the Arab spring? Or Libya to over throw Gaddafi? And then didn't want to get involved in Syria after seeing the mess made in those two countries. Do you blame Bush for not propping up Saddam? Did you notice how ISIS went of the radar after MBS took over. Where was their money coming from?
Like I said above make up your mind. Interventions do not work. And then same hypocrites blame Obama for allowing Arab spring to happen.
posted on 2/6/20
comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 1 minute ago
Much like the sand people
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bit racist
posted on 2/6/20
"Trust me, I have a lot more experience and knowledge on this subject than you do"
The most Winston comment ever, remember when he schooled us all on Adidas marketing technique by telling us he knew more but never actually provided Ng if
posted on 2/6/20
comment by Samir (U2630)
posted 3 minutes ago
India's major mineral resources include Coal (4th largest reserves in the world), Iron ore, Manganese ore (7th largest reserve in the world as in 2013),[4] Mica, Bauxite (5th largest reserve in the world as in 2013),[5] Chromite, Natural gas, Diamonds, Limestone and Thorium.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not much use without energy reserves. Pretty much similar situation to China. Which is why China are buying out minerals reserves in Africa and South America. Which you'd know a lot more abt.
posted on 2/6/20
Shall we move onto the next hot potato?
Why is the BAME cov19 report being delayed?
...I think it's going to somehow find a way to blame "cultural aspects" 🤔
posted on 2/6/20
comment by CrouchEndGooner (U13531)
posted 1 second ago
Shall we move onto the next hot potato?
Why is the BAME cov19 report being delayed?
...I think it's going to somehow find a way to blame "cultural aspects" 🤔
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it is a more quite complicated story.
https://twitter.com/ganeshran/status/1266320260543774720
I follow this guy. And it seems, really Covid is specifically a Black issue. The latest data from the NHS.
posted on 2/6/20
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Samir (U2630)
posted 22 seconds ago
You comparing the middle east with a very low population and massive oil wealth? What are they doing with their money? Trying to grow, educate their population, providing health care for all, housing, jobs or building glass cities using slave labour wages where only the very rich can live? Spending billions on a football clubs? While neighbouring countries are starving in inter religious wars and terrorism? yeah that middle east.
======
Where have I denied that any of these are not issues in the ME? Did you disregard the post where I said Arab leaders have been trash?
Remind me though, who propped up these leaders and families in the first place to be in charge of the ME countries? Oh that's right....
There has always been a vested interest. The leaders in the Arab world have carried off where the colonialists left off. Modernise and westernise the ME by any means possible.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What happened to Egypt when Obama allowed the Arab spring? Or Libya to over throw Gaddafi? And then didn't want to get involved in Syria after seeing the mess made in those two countries. Do you blame Bush for not propping up Saddam? Did you notice how ISIS went of the radar after MBS took over. Where was their money coming from?
Like I said above make up your mind. Interventions do not work. And then same hypocrites blame Obama for allowing Arab spring to happen.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Make up my mind?
I've literally been saying to you this entire time why I believe intervention has been wrong and made things worse. How has it taken you this long to see that?
If intervention is done in a responsible way i.e. not bombing civilians or sending in the military to take over specific areas, with the intention of protecting civilians and giving them a mandate to govern being the highest principles, then I am in favour of it. History shows that the US have been unable to do that though, so I think they should've stayed away to not make things worse.
By the way, I did my dissertation on the Arab Spring a few years back and let me tell you now, the US were not innocent bystanders in that entire situation. Not by a long stretch.
Page 21488 of 33630
21489 | 21490 | 21491 | 21492 | 21493