Here we go again, you running away from our debate just like last night

Want me to copy and paste it all over again?

Want that all dug up again to show how truly low you have sunken?

If your reply is a squirm then I'll take that as a yes. So what are we debating again?

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 34 minutes ago
Here we go again, you running away from our debate just like last night

Want me to copy and paste it all over again?

Want that all dug up again to show how truly low you have sunken?

If your reply is a squirm then I'll take that as a yes. So what are we debating again?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

you are not debating about the topic at hand which was mclaren and honda because you are to scared to -
--------- so you make out you are an expert on the merc engine which is ridiculous for either of us to suggest

If you can back up any of those claims go for it Martial

"I think theres a fairly major point being missed here. Regardless of whether McLaren passed information onto Honda or not they do not know how the Mercedes PU works. Yes they can see what the engine physically looks like but we all know that by now, it get snapped every Thursday at Grand Prix's.

Only Mercedes really knows whats going on inside and with the control units. Yes Honda can build a engine that 'looks' the same, but to build one that is the same, well that's another story. I feel this simple point has been somewhat ignored irrationally

Plus Honda-McLaren was announced in May 2013, so unless they threw away a years worth of work they won't have been entirely copying what the Merecedes lump 'looks' like."

Thats all I ever said, then you took it up with me resulting in your little gem

"so how do mercedes know what the " control electronics" are outputting if not by a computer that mclaren can see -
------------------ not really sure what the control electronics are or even if there is such a thing but never mind -"



Know what the control electronics are yet? Go on, surprise me and answer that

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 2 minutes ago
If you can back up any of those claims go for it Martial

"I think theres a fairly major point being missed here. Regardless of whether McLaren passed information onto Honda or not they do not know how the Mercedes PU works. Yes they can see what the engine physically looks like but we all know that by now, it get snapped every Thursday at Grand Prix's.

Only Mercedes really knows whats going on inside and with the control units. Yes Honda can build a engine that 'looks' the same, but to build one that is the same, well that's another story. I feel this simple point has been somewhat ignored irrationally

Plus Honda-McLaren was announced in May 2013, so unless they threw away a years worth of work they won't have been entirely copying what the Merecedes lump 'looks' like."

Thats all I ever said, then you took it up with me resulting in your little gem

"so how do mercedes know what the " control electronics" are outputting if not by a computer that mclaren can see -
------------------ not really sure what the control electronics are or even if there is such a thing but never mind -"



Know what the control electronics are yet? Go on, surprise me and answer that
----------------------------------------------------------------------

so what are we actually debating about then after your usual little ego trip of running away from the actual topic because you cant think of a proper counter -

whether or not mclaren would of sent honda information and whether it was of benefit to honda -

------------------ fire away

You know exactly what I've been debating Martial, I spelt it out to you last night...

"comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 19 hours ago
Breaking it down here for you,

"how much of a secret Mercedes keeps their PU from McLaren"

I would say very much a secret, and that McLaren will know very little about the specific inner workings of the Mercedes PU, including the ECU trickery involved.

Agree with that or are we disagreeing

I assumed agree after you accepted my olive branch?"


I've lost count of how many times you've run away from this now. Although you not knowing that Control Electronics was a thing is still my favourite

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 8 minutes ago
You know exactly what I've been debating Martial, I spelt it out to you last night...

"comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 19 hours ago
Breaking it down here for you,

"how much of a secret Mercedes keeps their PU from McLaren"

I would say very much a secret, and that McLaren will know very little about the specific inner workings of the Mercedes PU, including the ECU trickery involved.

Agree with that or are we disagreeing

I assumed agree after you accepted my olive branch?"


I've lost count of how many times you've run away from this now. Although you not knowing that Control Electronics was a thing is still my favourite
----------------------------------------------------------------------

so we are back to square one -

and i suggest that mclaren will very much know what is going on with the merc PU because they will also have access to the same data that merc will have -

as you agreed last week mclaren would have been sending information to honda so the law of averages would dictate that some of it will be of use to honda as why bother sending it in the first place

Lets do a bit of analysis

"mclaren will very much know what is going on with the merc PU because they will also have access to the same data that merc will have -"

Why would they? Why would Mercedes allow McLaren to see things they simply do not need to know? You think its Mercedes being charitable or something else? Mercedes controls the CE so they control what McLaren get to see.




"mclaren would have been sending information to honda so the law of averages would dictate that some of it will be of use to honda as why bother sending it in the first place"

Thats not how the law of averages works
You saying Honda will somehow be able to guess what is good info? If I sent them info would the law of averages help them there?

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 25 minutes ago
Lets do a bit of analysis

"mclaren will very much know what is going on with the merc PU because they will also have access to the same data that merc will have -"

Why would they? Why would Mercedes allow McLaren to see things they simply do not need to know? You think its Mercedes being charitable or something else? Mercedes controls the CE so they control what McLaren get to see.




"mclaren would have been sending information to honda so the law of averages would dictate that some of it will be of use to honda as why bother sending it in the first place"

Thats not how the law of averages works
You saying Honda will somehow be able to guess what is good info? If I sent them info would the law of averages help them there?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

mclaren have worked up close and personel with the merc PU for over a year and apart from merc they probably know more about the pu than anybody else -

and the information that mclaren would of been sending back to honda would have been no good in any shape or form what so ever to honda
-------------------- is that what you are saying here

I'm still confused to why you think Mercedes would be supplying trade secrets to McLaren. They create the whole PU and then turn up with their own engineers to oversee it all. Where does McLarens magical espionage come in?

Anyways, worked out what the PU is made up of yet? The six primary elements? A understanding of them will help with the principle of why McLaren will be out of the loop when it comes to specifics.

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 6 minutes ago
I'm still confused to why you think Mercedes would be supplying trade secrets to McLaren. They create the whole PU and then turn up with their own engineers to oversee it all. Where does McLarens magical espionage come in?

Anyways, worked out what the PU is made up of yet? The six primary elements? A understanding of them will help with the principle of why McLaren will be out of the loop when it comes to specifics.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

so you seriously think that even though mclaren worked up close and personal with the merc pu for over a year and had it attached to many of the systems on the car which that data was then on there state of the art computers -
---------------- mclaren did not know anything what so ever about the engine

I have a smart TV, if I hook it up my my xbox will it tell me how it works inside, or will it tell me what ever the xbox outputs? (Trying less complex examples for you here as you seem to be caught up on not knowing what a PU is...)

Why oh why would Mercedes make their PU output data that McLaren wouldn't need to know? If you can explain that you'd get a gold star

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 1 minute ago
I have a smart TV, if I hook it up my my xbox will it tell me how it works inside, or will it tell me what ever the xbox outputs? (Trying less complex examples for you here as you seem to be caught up on not knowing what a PU is...)

Why oh why would Mercedes make their PU output data that McLaren wouldn't need to know? If you can explain that you'd get a gold star
----------------------------------------------------------------------

so you seriously think that mclaren new absolutely nothing , not a thing , zilch , zippo , about the engine that they worked incredibly closely with and used in all of there 2014 cars in all the races , qualifying , testing , for over a year that was attached to many of the other systems in those cars -

------------------- mclaren did not actually know a single solitary thing about the engine and could not read the data that was coming from the engine that was on there rows of state of the art computers -

------------------------------- interesting

PU, not engine

We're talking about how the Mercedes PU specifically works, not how a PU would generally work. Renault and Ferrari have PU's much the same, its the little hidden things that make the difference

Genuinely, look up what a PU is!

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 1 minute ago
PU, not engine

We're talking about how the Mercedes PU specifically works, not how a PU would generally work. Renault and Ferrari have PU's much the same, its the little hidden things that make the difference

Genuinely, look up what a PU is!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

same thing -

-------- mclaren dont understand a single solitary thing about the pu after having worked incredibly closely with it for over a year in all there cars at all the races , at all the testing sessions whilst having it attached to many of the systems on there cars that is then attatched to there rows of state of the art computers -

------------------ mclaren dont understand one solitary single thing about that pu -
------------------------ is that what you are saying

A PU is not the same as an engine, the engine is just one sixth of the primary components. See this is why you're struggling with this debate, you don't understand what a PU even is

Seems you're repeating so

We're talking about how the Mercedes PU specifically works, not how a PU would generally work. Renault and Ferrari have PU's much the same, its the little hidden things that make the difference.

Genuinely, look up what a PU is!

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 17 minutes ago
A PU is not the same as an engine, the engine is just one sixth of the primary components. See this is why you're struggling with this debate, you don't understand what a PU even is

Seems you're repeating so

We're talking about how the Mercedes PU specifically works, not how a PU would generally work. Renault and Ferrari have PU's much the same, its the little hidden things that make the difference.

Genuinely, look up what a PU is!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

so you dont think mclaren know how a PU works even though they have the same one in all there cars for all the races , all the qual sessions , all the testing for over a year -

-------------- mclaren F1 dont know how a 2014 PU works ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- interesting

Seems you're just repeating yourself martial, obviously run out of ideas then? Just because you can't counter me it doesn't mean you have to post waffle

We're talking about how the Mercedes PU specifically works, not how a PU would generally work. Renault and Ferrari have PU's much the same, its the little hidden things that make the difference.

But until you understand what a PU actually is you debating this is futile, lest us not forget,

"so how do mercedes know what the " control electronics" are outputting if not by a computer that mclaren can see -
------------------ not really sure what the control electronics are or even if there is such a thing but never mind -"

Still not told me what the CE does yet

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 38 seconds ago
Seems you're just repeating yourself martial, obviously run out of ideas then? Just because you can't counter me it doesn't mean you have to post waffle

We're talking about how the Mercedes PU specifically works, not how a PU would generally work. Renault and Ferrari have PU's much the same, its the little hidden things that make the difference.

But until you understand what a PU actually is you debating this is futile, lest us not forget,

"so how do mercedes know what the " control electronics" are outputting if not by a computer that mclaren can see -
------------------ not really sure what the control electronics are or even if there is such a thing but never mind -"

Still not told me what the CE does yet

----------------------------------------------------------------------
yeh --- i shall keep on repeating myself as well until you get some guts to debate properly and stop running away from the initial subject -

so you dont think mclaren have the slightest understanding of how the 2014 PU works then

Where have I run away once from this.... whats that, another gutless attempt to get yourself out of this

I'm sure McLaren know how a PU works, just not the specifics of the Mercedes PU. We're talking about how the Mercedes PU specifically works, not how a PU would generally work. Its the little hidden things that make the difference.

Anyway, you don't actually know what a PU is so for all I know you're debating a front wing

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 15 minutes ago
Where have I run away once from this.... whats that, another gutless attempt to get yourself out of this

I'm sure McLaren know how a PU works, just not the specifics of the Mercedes PU. We're talking about how the Mercedes PU specifically works, not how a PU would generally work. Its the little hidden things that make the difference.

Anyway, you don't actually know what a PU is so for all I know you're debating a front wing
----------------------------------------------------------------------


so we finally got there -
------------------------- so mclaren do know how a PU works and as the only PU they have ever used is the merc PU they obviously have a very good idea on how the merc PU works which is only logical as they have had vast experience with the merc PU in all there cars for over a year -

--------------- at last we got there

It's the same thing I've said all along Martial

I'm sure McLaren know how a PU works, just not the specifics of the Mercedes PU. We're talking about how the Mercedes PU specifically works, not how a PU would generally work. Its the little hidden things that make the difference.

I'm not at McLarens level but I know how a PU works. But much like McLaren I don't know the specifics of the Mercedes PU, their little trade secrets that makes them win races

Simples.

comment by N_six0six (U13776)
posted 3 minutes ago
It's the same thing I've said all along Martial

I'm sure McLaren know how a PU works, just not the specifics of the Mercedes PU. We're talking about how the Mercedes PU specifically works, not how a PU would generally work. Its the little hidden things that make the difference.

I'm not at McLarens level but I know how a PU works. But much like McLaren I don't know the specifics of the Mercedes PU, their little trade secrets that makes them win races

Simples.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

not so sure
-- when you work with something for over a year and have it inside all your cars attached to the various sytems in the cars and have vast amounts of data on every component on that car and on every single system i think you are going to have a pretty good idea what that PU is doing

Unless all your computers are taking data from a Mercedes controlled output. Plus of course the Mercedes employees who follow the PU around at McLaren so it never gets left alone with McLaren.

If I chose what my PU outputted I'd make sure it was nothing that would help copy the engine, how about you?

I'm really not sure what you are debating here martial.

You do not understand how a PU works or its constituent parts

You do not understand that each company has trade secrets about their products. They may all provide PUs but the way the work is unique to each company. It it was all equal, why was the merc one better?

We also come again full circle to our earlier discussion on this thread about the following terms;

Intellectual property
Confidentiality Agreements
Contracts

You need to do a lot of research my good man, lots and lots of research

Interesting article published on the Autosport website yesterday

The secrets of the McLaren-Honda package

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/feature/6307/the-secrets-of-the-mclarenhonda-package/?_ga=1.15743478.1550928642.1383318456

So much for “drip feeding substantial snippets of gossip” aye?