A lot of the leaders in the region we set them up in power or their predecessors, we drew their borders (parts) invented countries. Funded terror groups when they were in our interest. Some of the regimes we set up were overthrown and replaced another tyrant whereas if we had just left them evolve naturally they might have slowly changed to a democracy themselves. They even had a liberal democracy we poverthrew.
We could pretend the west has absolutely nothing to do with the way the muslim world is but that is quite frankly a fantasy.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
It has had a hand, no doubt.
But other countries in the muslim world have shown they can manage quite nicely.
this sizzle is a proper clown isn't he.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 32 minutes ago
Yeah all the West's fault.They don't want to take any personal responsibility.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Look Cal you can live in your fantasy land were Muslims are all evil and the west is perfect. Personally I prefer to actually acknowledge the facts and admit my countries and their allies flaws.
Whilst we are on the subject why are white people so evil, what is it about being white that makes people evil?
Hitler and Stalin, two of the worst.... Not too mention millions killed in the economic interests of white people.
In the same way you have to question what is wrong with Muslims we have to ask what the hell is wrong with White people...
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Cinciwolf (U11551)
posted 37 minutes ago
It has had a hand, no doubt.
But other countries in the muslim world have shown they can manage quite nicely.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There's some we didn't completely mess up, there's some that have recovered from our mess ups. That does not mean we are not at fault.
Look how long it took for democracy to develop in Europe, at certain stages it was a very delicate process. If some huge foreign power had interfered in their own economic interests they could have set back the development of democracy(and all the things that come with it) hundreds of years.
That isn't too say it will be all that foreign powers fault but in the natural path it was going down a big enough jolt could knock them off the path for years!
What do think about the ones that committed the 7/7 bombings? Did you understand their motives? Or the killers of Lee Rigby? Were they also justified?
............................................................
I think we have already discussed my views on collective punishment regarding the Palestinians, although in fairness with the West the casualty list is far bigger going the other way.
Rigby bit more of a grey area, don't think anyone deserves to die or should die but in fairness they actually targeted a soldier over innocent civilians, although wasn't he a drummer or something. TBH I would have to know more about the situation to make an exact call but obviously it is always horrific to see someone called, decapitation is even more horrific again.
Lee Rigby was butchered,SAF,while out walking,not in combat and he was hit by a car first to take him down.
Isis behead those muslim's they do not like and recently crucified a muslim for not following Ramadan.
I am sorry,but the so called west and Christians are not doing this,but all over the muslim world,horriffic acts are committed by islamist nutjobs.
The muslim world needs to police itself too,and not blame the west,Crusades,U.S,or Israel for evil policies and actions.
It would be nice if you could just say ALL murder is wrong.
Stand in front of his family and tell them it is a grey area.
Put an IDF member in front of a child's family,and I am sure you would condone his grey area analysis.
The Muslim's white's,West,Isis,Israel etc have all been evil,and the us and them argument is sick at times.
Good and evil does not come in little religious,or political packages.
Saying Islam or the West or Israel or Christianity is to blame is silly.
7/7 targeted you and me on a bus,man.
I do not defend Blair starting warsthe death of babies,for example,so feel free not to be vague about jihadist evil.
Lee Rigby was butchered,SAF,while out walking,not in combat and he was hit by a car first to take him down.
..........................................................................
Yeah like I said not sure of exactly all the facts around the case.
Though the reason I did mention a grey area is I am not sure the West differentiates between an off duty terrorist and an on duty one. Do you think it is wrong to take out an off duty terrorist?
It would be nice if you could just say ALL murder is wrong.
......................................................................
I did say in just the post above....
"don't think anyone deserves to die or should die"
If I murder someone who is about to kill someone else then that is okay, IMO. Murder for no reason is wrong. If we are going to get into politically motivated killings then it is important to understand the reasons behind it...
Certainly makes a lot more sense than burying your head in the sand pretending the opposition are just crazy and then asking why the opposition are crazy...
SAF
No,no,Lee was not an off duty terrorist,if that is what you are implying.
You are playing with words,and you are playing a dangerous game here.
You may have done research,but humanity does not need to be studied.
You are sounding more and more like the mirror image of an IDF spokesperson here.
Men such as Lee join the army for many reasons,and often for a job,and from all backgrounds in this and other nation's.
The army Lee was in defeated the natzis,as we remember,and if you regard the British army as terrorists,that is your call.
If that is so,it must be strange living in the UK.If you do live here,that is.
tbabb I said no such thing... I asked you a fairly simple question. Maybe your reluctance to answer it should tell you something.
Maybe rather than claiming I am saying a million different things you could just answer my rather simple question.
Is it okay or not okay to kill an off duty terrorist?
Also my dad is in the army (MOD to be precise) so don't mistakenly think I hate all British soldiers or want them to die or some other crazy nonsense. I am also a white atheist so I am not some crazy religious nut job who hates white people either.
If people of a certain religious cult are at odds with all other religions - Christians, Hindus, Jews, Baha'is, Zorastrians, Buddhists, Sikhs - and agnostics and atheists, they certainly need introspection into their belief systems. This is not a good way to lead your life and such beliefs do not bring peace and happiness to you or to others. You can't live with this perennial feeling of US vs THEM. A better philosophy is: Can we be one of them? Can they be one of us?
Not sure that any religion is particularly at odds with every other religion....
You can find individuals within each that everyone would hate, or that hate everyone else.... But I am not aware of any particular religion that causes its members to all hate everyone else.....
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Sizzle I am going to have to disagree, preferably capture them first but if we have some crazy terrorist out there intent on killing we may well have to kill him...
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
I am happy with that but if they are really dangerous and it comes down to him escaping or taking a kill shot, somethings got to be done.
The argument about religion is to degree irrelevant. In this case religion is the quoted reason but there is an arguement it is really about land and the Israelis being a different race to them with lighter skin. In the same war the Bosnia war was Christians vs Muslims on the surface, but they were from different ethnic groups which is what it was really about. Is it really that different from Na.zis in WW2?
The majority of Christians, Jews and Muslims claim their faith is peaceful and live lives that bear that out. Only the Jews have not committed atrocities imo in the last 1000 years (I see this as them defending their land were gives they were given by the west, whether rightly or wrongly, from Palestinian rocket attacks).
The problem as I have said before is extremism and at the moment we are seeing more islamic extremism than anything else, but the Palestinians will always be supported by left wing extremists on a matter of principle (dispite the fact they and their unions are banned in Palestine). Even to the point that a left wing Jew I know supports Palestine even though they want him dead and he has never once when asked given any sort of rational reason for it.
Slight tangent of a question:
What would happen, realistically, if someone managed to develop a genuine alternative to oil? If they were allowed (somehow) to develop it to the point where it went to market.....what could the oil companies do if they hadn't managed to stop it during development?
How would countries whose economies are heavily reliant on oil companies react?
Benayoun is a Disgrace
Page 121 of 146
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posted on 5/8/14
A lot of the leaders in the region we set them up in power or their predecessors, we drew their borders (parts) invented countries. Funded terror groups when they were in our interest. Some of the regimes we set up were overthrown and replaced another tyrant whereas if we had just left them evolve naturally they might have slowly changed to a democracy themselves. They even had a liberal democracy we poverthrew.
We could pretend the west has absolutely nothing to do with the way the muslim world is but that is quite frankly a fantasy.
posted on 5/8/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 5/8/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 5/8/14
It has had a hand, no doubt.
But other countries in the muslim world have shown they can manage quite nicely.
posted on 5/8/14
this sizzle is a proper clown isn't he.
posted on 5/8/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 5/8/14
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 32 minutes ago
Yeah all the West's fault.They don't want to take any personal responsibility.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Look Cal you can live in your fantasy land were Muslims are all evil and the west is perfect. Personally I prefer to actually acknowledge the facts and admit my countries and their allies flaws.
Whilst we are on the subject why are white people so evil, what is it about being white that makes people evil?
Hitler and Stalin, two of the worst.... Not too mention millions killed in the economic interests of white people.
In the same way you have to question what is wrong with Muslims we have to ask what the hell is wrong with White people...
posted on 5/8/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 5/8/14
comment by Cinciwolf (U11551)
posted 37 minutes ago
It has had a hand, no doubt.
But other countries in the muslim world have shown they can manage quite nicely.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There's some we didn't completely mess up, there's some that have recovered from our mess ups. That does not mean we are not at fault.
Look how long it took for democracy to develop in Europe, at certain stages it was a very delicate process. If some huge foreign power had interfered in their own economic interests they could have set back the development of democracy(and all the things that come with it) hundreds of years.
That isn't too say it will be all that foreign powers fault but in the natural path it was going down a big enough jolt could knock them off the path for years!
posted on 5/8/14
What do think about the ones that committed the 7/7 bombings? Did you understand their motives? Or the killers of Lee Rigby? Were they also justified?
............................................................
I think we have already discussed my views on collective punishment regarding the Palestinians, although in fairness with the West the casualty list is far bigger going the other way.
Rigby bit more of a grey area, don't think anyone deserves to die or should die but in fairness they actually targeted a soldier over innocent civilians, although wasn't he a drummer or something. TBH I would have to know more about the situation to make an exact call but obviously it is always horrific to see someone called, decapitation is even more horrific again.
posted on 5/8/14
Lee Rigby was butchered,SAF,while out walking,not in combat and he was hit by a car first to take him down.
Isis behead those muslim's they do not like and recently crucified a muslim for not following Ramadan.
I am sorry,but the so called west and Christians are not doing this,but all over the muslim world,horriffic acts are committed by islamist nutjobs.
The muslim world needs to police itself too,and not blame the west,Crusades,U.S,or Israel for evil policies and actions.
It would be nice if you could just say ALL murder is wrong.
Stand in front of his family and tell them it is a grey area.
Put an IDF member in front of a child's family,and I am sure you would condone his grey area analysis.
The Muslim's white's,West,Isis,Israel etc have all been evil,and the us and them argument is sick at times.
Good and evil does not come in little religious,or political packages.
Saying Islam or the West or Israel or Christianity is to blame is silly.
7/7 targeted you and me on a bus,man.
I do not defend Blair starting warsthe death of babies,for example,so feel free not to be vague about jihadist evil.
posted on 5/8/14
Lee Rigby was butchered,SAF,while out walking,not in combat and he was hit by a car first to take him down.
..........................................................................
Yeah like I said not sure of exactly all the facts around the case.
Though the reason I did mention a grey area is I am not sure the West differentiates between an off duty terrorist and an on duty one. Do you think it is wrong to take out an off duty terrorist?
posted on 5/8/14
It would be nice if you could just say ALL murder is wrong.
......................................................................
I did say in just the post above....
"don't think anyone deserves to die or should die"
If I murder someone who is about to kill someone else then that is okay, IMO. Murder for no reason is wrong. If we are going to get into politically motivated killings then it is important to understand the reasons behind it...
Certainly makes a lot more sense than burying your head in the sand pretending the opposition are just crazy and then asking why the opposition are crazy...
posted on 6/8/14
SAF
No,no,Lee was not an off duty terrorist,if that is what you are implying.
You are playing with words,and you are playing a dangerous game here.
You may have done research,but humanity does not need to be studied.
You are sounding more and more like the mirror image of an IDF spokesperson here.
posted on 6/8/14
Men such as Lee join the army for many reasons,and often for a job,and from all backgrounds in this and other nation's.
The army Lee was in defeated the natzis,as we remember,and if you regard the British army as terrorists,that is your call.
If that is so,it must be strange living in the UK.If you do live here,that is.
posted on 6/8/14
tbabb I said no such thing... I asked you a fairly simple question. Maybe your reluctance to answer it should tell you something.
Maybe rather than claiming I am saying a million different things you could just answer my rather simple question.
Is it okay or not okay to kill an off duty terrorist?
posted on 6/8/14
Also my dad is in the army (MOD to be precise) so don't mistakenly think I hate all British soldiers or want them to die or some other crazy nonsense. I am also a white atheist so I am not some crazy religious nut job who hates white people either.
posted on 6/8/14
If people of a certain religious cult are at odds with all other religions - Christians, Hindus, Jews, Baha'is, Zorastrians, Buddhists, Sikhs - and agnostics and atheists, they certainly need introspection into their belief systems. This is not a good way to lead your life and such beliefs do not bring peace and happiness to you or to others. You can't live with this perennial feeling of US vs THEM. A better philosophy is: Can we be one of them? Can they be one of us?
posted on 6/8/14
Not sure that any religion is particularly at odds with every other religion....
You can find individuals within each that everyone would hate, or that hate everyone else.... But I am not aware of any particular religion that causes its members to all hate everyone else.....
posted on 6/8/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 6/8/14
Sizzle I am going to have to disagree, preferably capture them first but if we have some crazy terrorist out there intent on killing we may well have to kill him...
posted on 6/8/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 6/8/14
I am happy with that but if they are really dangerous and it comes down to him escaping or taking a kill shot, somethings got to be done.
posted on 6/8/14
The argument about religion is to degree irrelevant. In this case religion is the quoted reason but there is an arguement it is really about land and the Israelis being a different race to them with lighter skin. In the same war the Bosnia war was Christians vs Muslims on the surface, but they were from different ethnic groups which is what it was really about. Is it really that different from Na.zis in WW2?
The majority of Christians, Jews and Muslims claim their faith is peaceful and live lives that bear that out. Only the Jews have not committed atrocities imo in the last 1000 years (I see this as them defending their land were gives they were given by the west, whether rightly or wrongly, from Palestinian rocket attacks).
The problem as I have said before is extremism and at the moment we are seeing more islamic extremism than anything else, but the Palestinians will always be supported by left wing extremists on a matter of principle (dispite the fact they and their unions are banned in Palestine). Even to the point that a left wing Jew I know supports Palestine even though they want him dead and he has never once when asked given any sort of rational reason for it.
posted on 6/8/14
Slight tangent of a question:
What would happen, realistically, if someone managed to develop a genuine alternative to oil? If they were allowed (somehow) to develop it to the point where it went to market.....what could the oil companies do if they hadn't managed to stop it during development?
How would countries whose economies are heavily reliant on oil companies react?
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