Ultimately, trade is not a problem - to the contrary, the U.K will thrive by making free trade deals with the rest of the world (yes, they exist)
--------
You imbecile... Free trade deals with the rest of the world? How is the trade deal doing with China? Where our steel industry is on its knees due to cheap imports!
If the trade with China was 'free' the steel industry would already be dead and buried, along with anything else China can produce that we currently do.
Simple fact, lower production costs = cheaper products flooding the market under your "free trade" deal.
Jesus Christ!
Red
The knock-on effects of free trading with certain countries just because they're cheaper will be devastating. It won't only cost jobs it will lower working standards as the UK attempts to compete.
Of course the successful business owners will love it. American 0 days paid leave? Yes. Japanese 12 hour work days? Awesome. Chinese levels of industrial smog? Fantastic. Indian health and safety? Sign me up.
That's the future with a Tory gov left purely to their own devices. A quick money grab at the expense of the general populous. That's why we are currently in a stronger position by remaining in the far from perfect EU.
Science, that is what is known as the race to the bottom.
It is severely out of sync with EU policies that are to increase standards of quality and living standards.
The issue I have with immigration debates is that it always seems to be targeted at those of a poorer background that come to a more affluent area of Europe to better themselves.
Why shouldn't they better themselves? It's as though someone wants to lord it over others to say "im better than you"
In my book, if someone wants to travel thousands of km's to take a job away from their home, they are quite welcome to do so.
If someone local had filled that position there wouldn't be a need in the first place, would there?
And still we so no figures, or facts from the leave brigade... just conjecture.
Is that what people are going to be voting on? The conjecture of others?
Jesus Christ!
*still we see no figures...
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
You don't think German car manufacturers would risk sales because of political union do you.
------------------------------------
The only reason German car manufacturers sell a lot to us is due to being in the same market and EU requirements. We lose this if we leave.
If we leave we go on the same footing as the likes of China and US. EU would obviously prefer to strike a deal with the two as they're a lot more likely to bring in more income/sales with population of 300m+ and 1bn+. We're only 60m..+
comment by Ttliv87 (U11882)
posted 5 hours, 26 minutes ago
As long as we are in deficit with the EU they wouldn't dare try the tariff game, because there would only be one winner. You don't put tariffs on your biggest customers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Again see my comment above. We're EUs biggest customer because we're in the same market.
Russia have been one of EUs gas suppliers and people said EU wouldn't dare touch them... sanctions etc. I wonder how that is going. We're a great country but let's be realistic..
Still no facts or figures from the leave camp..
The UK needs the EU as an export market far more than the EU needs the UK as an export market. As was put forward by a contributor earlier, current exports to the EU is 44% of our total exports.
As long as we are in deficit with the EU they wouldn't dare try the tariff game
--------
We are in deficit because we need those products. Why would we purchase from Europe if there was an equivalent product in the UK?
We have free trade with the EU because we are in the EU.
You can't get better than free.
We would have to renegotiate terms with the EU, that will be worse (can't get better than free)
And still not one contributor has put forward what legislation from the EU they would describe as wholly bad.
"Sorry Metro, you've had a mare here and I'm going to laugh in your general direction
EFTA members are Norway, Iceland, Lichtenstein, Switzerland.. We are going to trade with them instead of the EU?"
--------
I've had a mare have I?
You've just proven that you have a very basic understanding of the EFTA.
At no point did I state that we would trade with the current members instead of the EU. The point is that they all have access to the single market without being members of the European political union.
This doesn't mean that the UK would have a mirrored agreement. Ours would be superior given our economy. I think you clearly under-estimate the UKs muscle.
----
"You still have to bilateral treaties independently - which will then still mean you have to sign up to some European legislation (of which incidentally not one person on here has pointed out any legislation that is bad)"
-----
No - Switzerland has such agreements. The UK isn't Switzerland pal.
The overall point is that different countries have different agreements dependent on their economic circumstances. You think Country X must be equal to Countty Y (it's teenage stuff)
----
"Metro you've provided zero facts to back up any of your arguments.
Start with a simple one.
Population of the 27 EU countries
Population of the 4 EFTA countries.
-----
I've backed up everything. You're the one who has failed to grasp the basic points being made.
Nobody is saying that trade with the EFTA replaces trade with the EU - You conjured this out of thin air.
You've offered no facts or figures for anything and are blowing hot air as you have done through your points on this discussion.
Every single one of those EFTA members have bilateral treaties with the EU.
What makes you think that the EU will give the UK the same "free" trade deal that it doesn't give other EFTA members?
Go on.. Answer that one
Once you've answered that, you can go ahead answer whether the EFTA members will allow the UK into it (you can't just buy a ticket and turn up) if the UK will be getting better terms than them.
Also, the EU encumber/ EFTA with a lot of EU legislation anyway to trade with the EU (but not free trade)
So can you at least answer instead of providing guff like, "The UK is not Switzerland" I mean - what are you trying to say there ffs?
Metro to defend my previous comment, this is what you said :
"... You do realise that there is a free trade zone in Europe called EFTA (European Free Trade Association) which consists of Norway, Iceland, Switzerland and Liechtenstein who, you guessed it are non eu nations."
EFTA is a free trade zone featuring those countries. So it read as though you were saying the UK would have free trade with those countries at the expense of removing free trade with the EU.
comment by 19th title coming soon. (U12879)
posted 1 day, 15 hours ago
The argument is about so much more than exports. I don't think you really understand. The pound has already lost a lot of value because of the referendum. It will lose another 20% of its value if we leave. This means that everyone wil be poorer, there will be high inflation and there will be job losses, and that doesn't count ones directly related to the EU
that's speculative at best, and just plain wrong at worst.
firstly, there's absolutely no way to quantify any post-vote percentage drop in the value of the pound at this point. some devaluation against other currencies will have already occurred, and will continue up to the vote, a leave vote will have already been largely factored into the exchange rates by then, there would not necessarily be another large drop in value.
secondly, assuming there is a large drop in the value of sterling, that would make british made goods far more attractive to price based british consumers than European goods, aiding our struggling manufacturing base, making our exports more attractive to other countries, therefore creating jobs, not losing them. and giving a much needed boost to our balance of payments.
as for all this better together malarkey. the eu, eec, common market, whatever people want to call it, is not co-operation to improve everything for Europeans, it was never designed as such, it was initially started as a way to expand the energy/fuel/coal/metals markets across the major European countries to prevent one country (Germany) having control of the markets for the resources required to wage war.
the EU was designed from the start for subjugation, not freedom. it's just that the most powerful country in the eu now is the one it was supposed to be subjugating.
and no, there is no democratic Europe, yes, we can vote for the eu ministers, the parliament, but they don't create the laws, the commission does, and there's not one member of the general public in Europe who can vote for any of the members of that.
as for Europe being bigger, getting better trade deals with countries outside Europe than we could alone, we could already have several very lucrative trade deals in place on our own, but we're prevented from doing so by Europe, one of them, with Canada, Europe's own deal with Canada is currently being held up by (vetoed) by a completely unrelated argument about Romanian visa's. WTF? why should that be blocking any trade deal?
and everything's going to be fair in Europe? nope. ask Greece. ask spain. ask Italy. again all being subjugated and forced into austerity by the richer northern countries.
in the first years of the euro, every country had the same fiscal rules, france and Germany broke them every year. no penalties. spain and Italy stuck to the rules. post financial collapse. private sector debt got the banks into trouble, not the governments, spain and Italy broke the fiscal limits to try saving their banking systems. france and Germany imposed penalties on them, and forced them into austerity budgets.
Greece is now being forced to privatise damn near everything, which will likely be bought up by german and French utility companies. they'll basically own Greece's infrastructure at wholesale prices, and still force Greece to pay them for it.
none of the financial problems we've seen over the last 8-10 years have been fixed, all they've done is paper over the cracks, and kicked the can down the road, give themselves a year/18 months breathing space, and then kick it again.
the fundamental problems with the euro, a single interest rate across disparate markets, the emasculation of sovereign central banks, but keeping sovereign bonds, and debts. the disparity between the northern members and the southern members. the fundamental weakness of the French and Italian banks. it's all still there waiting to blow up. for all their talking, and can kicking, they've not solved a single problem yet.
the Eurozone, the EEC, EU is broken. it's a nice idea, and if done properly would be great, but it's current incarnation is not fit for purpose. the rising anti-eu sentiment across ALL of Europe is indicative of the increasing disillusionment of the populace with those in control, who will not listen to the populous, who have no desire or will, or too many vested interests, to see it be reformed into something useful.
i'm not anti-Europe, as I said, I think it's actually a good idea, but as it is, it doesn't work, and they won't change it, as such, they're leaving very little option but to see it torn down.
maybe it can be done properly in future, but I'm not holding out much hope for that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Um just to make you aware while you may be correct in
***************
and no, there is no democratic Europe, yes, we can vote for the eu ministers, the parliament, but they don't create the laws, the commission does, and there's not one member of the general public in Europe who can vote for any of the members of that.
*****************
We sort of do. Just hear me out for a second.
We select MEPs which have to opportunity to reject any legislation and directives set out by these top dudes. Even so we have one angling for UK. Yes and while we did not put him there our leaders did. So in theory if you look at it we the general public voted for our government who decide who will represent us at the top table in the EU parliament. The poeple who we voted for in EU elections aka MEPs are there to reject anything that comes out. So while we did not vote to put them there we did have a slight hand in putting our own men there.
For me the main issue of the EU Referendum is that of the rich and super rich, living in their own separate world, where they are not only NOT affected by the consequences of out of control immigration but in fact PROFIT from it, versus the real people who take the brunt of paying taxes and receiving reducing services as a result of the actions of the super rich.
You see, big business, which is owned by the super rich, loves cheap EU labour, it brings them even more profits. They don’t care that the tax payers then subsidise those EU migrants through in work benefits to the tune of up to £26k per family.
A couple of recent reports state that these subsidies, added to the unemployment benefits paid to the UK citizen who job is taken by the migrant, costs the UK tax payers around £76bn per year. That pales the nett membership fees of £12bn into insignificance.
Yes, that’s right £76bn, that’s approximately £2,300 per year of every working adult in the UK.
That’s why you pay tax on your wages and then pay tax on the remainder which has already been taxed.
Fuel tax, road tax, insurance tax, VAT and many, many, many more, too mention here.
For instance an EU migrant working family (2 adults, 3 children) may earn just £15k per year in wages, and they would pay NO tax, they would get tax credits and other in work benefits, including child benefit and housing benefit up to the benefits cap of £26k. So the net financial position to Britain is already -£26k!
This is BEFORE the cost of state services such as health and social care are taken into account. For instance schooling per year for the three children would cost £15k per annum! Therefore the financial loss to Britain’s has already reached £41k per annum before we even touch on any other costs of servicing a low paid EU family.
So forget the £30 million nett we hand over to the EU, well don’t forget it, add it to the £208 million per day that mass migration costs us.
Why politicians are pissing about with the £55m per day argument, I don’t know.
You don’t believe me? Well do the research, look at all the NI numbers given over to immigrants each year, multiply the above by that, and then half it so that we’re not exaggerating.
The above is just the financial pain for the working UK citizen.
That’s without the social costs of mass migration in terms of housing, school places, access to health services, for instance getting to see a dentist has become near impossible as dentists revise their conditions for remaining as a registered patient down from 2 years towards 12 months so that when a British patient phones they are told point blank that they are no longer registered due to demand for NHS.
None of this is a problem for the rich, they’ve got private dental and medical plans where they don’t sit in waiting rooms. They live in affluent areas. Basically the super rich, the elite, do not inhabit the same world as us.
Lord Green and Virgin’s Branson and other vested interests such as senior politicians seeking to retire to a cozy positions in Brussels, and the mainstream media such as the BBC who have been banging the propaganda drum the loudest for a REMAIN vote outcome, for it serves their interests and NOT that of most of the British people!
Most of all, the above is based on the migrants that have already arrived, it can only get much worse every year with migration running at 330,000.
In my view, the only migrants we should be accepting are those that have special skills that are required for a role where there is no such skill available already.
So yeah, I’m a penny pinching racist.
comment by Brennie Babes (U8994)
posted 1 day, 17 hours ago
Sorry my computer decided to die just as i posted this thread. @alex. To be honest i was expecting some brexiters to come on here and start stating' facts' but none so far. It's easier to discount individual arguments than make a whole one, especially on something so complex. Here's a starter though....
The remain campaign has been based on facts, statistics and informed opinion, whilst the leave campaign has relied on accusing the remainers of 'scaremongering' (extremely hypocritical really considering their use of statistics), making promises they know they can't keep, and relying on people's emotions rather than evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're so, so wrong.
Some of the facts put out by the Remain campaign.
1st Lie
By 2030, each household will be poorer by £4,600.
They got that figure by guessing a reduction of GDP by 2030 and dividing it by the number of households.
Firstly, the government, bank of England and IMF can't even get forecasts correct 12 months ahead, how the hell do they accurately forecast 14 years ahead? Secondly, GDP is a value that includes materials, energy, cappex and many, many other things, , which does include gross salaries. Even if the guestimate of reduction of GDP was correct, only 1/10th of that, divided by number of households would be close.
2nd Lie
Britain is safer in Europe?
Well, considering we are one of the only two members with nuclear weapons and delivery system, we are 1 of 5 permanent members of the UN security council. We are a member of NATO and along with France, we are the leaders in security, espionage and counter-terrorism. None of this would be effected by leaving the EU.
Those are just two of the lies put out by the Remain campaign.
I think you will find that the Leave campaign is mainly based on what is already happening now, how can that be a lie.
comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Brennie Babes (U8994)
posted 1 day, 17 hours ago
Sorry my computer decided to die just as i posted this thread. @alex. To be honest i was expecting some brexiters to come on here and start stating' facts' but none so far. It's easier to discount individual arguments than make a whole one, especially on something so complex. Here's a starter though....
The remain campaign has been based on facts, statistics and informed opinion, whilst the leave campaign has relied on accusing the remainers of 'scaremongering' (extremely hypocritical really considering their use of statistics), making promises they know they can't keep, and relying on people's emotions rather than evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're so, so wrong.
Some of the facts put out by the Remain campaign.
1st Lie
By 2030, each household will be poorer by £4,600.
They got that figure by guessing a reduction of GDP by 2030 and dividing it by the number of households.
Firstly, the government, bank of England and IMF can't even get forecasts correct 12 months ahead, how the hell do they accurately forecast 14 years ahead? Secondly, GDP is a value that includes materials, energy, cappex and many, many other things, , which does include gross salaries. Even if the guestimate of reduction of GDP was correct, only 1/10th of that, divided by number of households would be close.
2nd Lie
Britain is safer in Europe?
Well, considering we are one of the only two members with nuclear weapons and delivery system, we are 1 of 5 permanent members of the UN security council. We are a member of NATO and along with France, we are the leaders in security, espionage and counter-terrorism. None of this would be effected by leaving the EU.
Those are just two of the lies put out by the Remain campaign.
I think you will find that the Leave campaign is mainly based on what is already happening now, how can that be a lie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you been to America or India or China or anywhere else apart from the EU?
Now lets forget the rubbish the media tell us, first the working time directive. Oh yeah is an EU directive means we get paid healthy but also to make sure we are not working as slaves. Now Americans work time is slightly different, hell so is India and china. Do you get what I am saying they work longer for less.
Secondly you are saying the IMF can't predict anything, well to be honest that is what a prediction is. When all say it will be worse do you surely think they are ALL wrong.
Your second point, i think you have misused the phrase, it does not only correlate to security which I agree would make no difference, actually for the leave campaign to even suggest that there will be more sexual offences caused if we remain in is nonsense. He was talking about non EU immigrants which caused this. This would still happen!
To me i think this is scaremongering!
comment by Number 1 unless we are number 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 (U15631)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Brennie Babes (U8994)
posted 1 day, 17 hours ago
Sorry my computer decided to die just as i posted this thread. @alex. To be honest i was expecting some brexiters to come on here and start stating' facts' but none so far. It's easier to discount individual arguments than make a whole one, especially on something so complex. Here's a starter though....
The remain campaign has been based on facts, statistics and informed opinion, whilst the leave campaign has relied on accusing the remainers of 'scaremongering' (extremely hypocritical really considering their use of statistics), making promises they know they can't keep, and relying on people's emotions rather than evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're so, so wrong.
Some of the facts put out by the Remain campaign.
1st Lie
By 2030, each household will be poorer by £4,600.
They got that figure by guessing a reduction of GDP by 2030 and dividing it by the number of households.
Firstly, the government, bank of England and IMF can't even get forecasts correct 12 months ahead, how the hell do they accurately forecast 14 years ahead? Secondly, GDP is a value that includes materials, energy, cappex and many, many other things, , which does include gross salaries. Even if the guestimate of reduction of GDP was correct, only 1/10th of that, divided by number of households would be close.
2nd Lie
Britain is safer in Europe?
Well, considering we are one of the only two members with nuclear weapons and delivery system, we are 1 of 5 permanent members of the UN security council. We are a member of NATO and along with France, we are the leaders in security, espionage and counter-terrorism. None of this would be effected by leaving the EU.
Those are just two of the lies put out by the Remain campaign.
I think you will find that the Leave campaign is mainly based on what is already happening now, how can that be a lie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you been to America or India or China or anywhere else apart from the EU?
Now lets forget the rubbish the media tell us, first the working time directive. Oh yeah is an EU directive means we get paid healthy but also to make sure we are not working as slaves. Now Americans work time is slightly different, hell so is India and china. Do you get what I am saying they work longer for less.
Secondly you are saying the IMF can't predict anything, well to be honest that is what a prediction is. When all say it will be worse do you surely think they are ALL wrong.
Your second point, i think you have misused the phrase, it does not only correlate to security which I agree would make no difference, actually for the leave campaign to even suggest that there will be more sexual offences caused if we remain in is nonsense. He was talking about non EU immigrants which caused this. This would still happen!
To me i think this is scaremongering!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly, I travel quite a bit with my job, once or twice India.
Secondly, the EU working time directive is a bit of a red herring, don't you think. The working time directive quotes a maximum working week of 48 hours, averaged over 13 weeks. It only effects the number of overtime hours worked. The funny thing is, the sectors where overtime is worked most like police, doctors etc have no protection because as part of their contract, they sign away their rights.
What do you think the massive strikes are across France right now, the French workers aren't getting any protection, are they?
Thirdly, if you understood the structure of the banking world and who owns the banks, you wouldn't be so naïve. They know their figure are wrong, they hatched them up together, the last thing they want is this cushy little money spinner falling down. It's going to fall down, it's a house of cards. Do you not realize that when the EU collapses, which it will, the individual countries will pick themselves up and carry on. The EU adds no value whatsoever.
As for sexual violence, are you completely deaf and blind to what is happening in Sweden, Germany and France. In Germany, particularly Cologne, over 100 women were gang raped on new years eve alone.
In Germany, women are being advised not to wear short skirts or perfume because muslims believe it is an invite.
Don't believe me? do you know how to use google.
Also, whilst you're at it, google "Coudenhove Kalergi".
comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 9 seconds ago
comment by Number 1 unless we are number 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 (U15631)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Brennie Babes (U8994)
posted 1 day, 17 hours ago
Sorry my computer decided to die just as i posted this thread. @alex. To be honest i was expecting some brexiters to come on here and start stating' facts' but none so far. It's easier to discount individual arguments than make a whole one, especially on something so complex. Here's a starter though....
The remain campaign has been based on facts, statistics and informed opinion, whilst the leave campaign has relied on accusing the remainers of 'scaremongering' (extremely hypocritical really considering their use of statistics), making promises they know they can't keep, and relying on people's emotions rather than evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're so, so wrong.
Some of the facts put out by the Remain campaign.
1st Lie
By 2030, each household will be poorer by £4,600.
They got that figure by guessing a reduction of GDP by 2030 and dividing it by the number of households.
Firstly, the government, bank of England and IMF can't even get forecasts correct 12 months ahead, how the hell do they accurately forecast 14 years ahead? Secondly, GDP is a value that includes materials, energy, cappex and many, many other things, , which does include gross salaries. Even if the guestimate of reduction of GDP was correct, only 1/10th of that, divided by number of households would be close.
2nd Lie
Britain is safer in Europe?
Well, considering we are one of the only two members with nuclear weapons and delivery system, we are 1 of 5 permanent members of the UN security council. We are a member of NATO and along with France, we are the leaders in security, espionage and counter-terrorism. None of this would be effected by leaving the EU.
Those are just two of the lies put out by the Remain campaign.
I think you will find that the Leave campaign is mainly based on what is already happening now, how can that be a lie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you been to America or India or China or anywhere else apart from the EU?
Now lets forget the rubbish the media tell us, first the working time directive. Oh yeah is an EU directive means we get paid healthy but also to make sure we are not working as slaves. Now Americans work time is slightly different, hell so is India and china. Do you get what I am saying they work longer for less.
Secondly you are saying the IMF can't predict anything, well to be honest that is what a prediction is. When all say it will be worse do you surely think they are ALL wrong.
Your second point, i think you have misused the phrase, it does not only correlate to security which I agree would make no difference, actually for the leave campaign to even suggest that there will be more sexual offences caused if we remain in is nonsense. He was talking about non EU immigrants which caused this. This would still happen!
To me i think this is scaremongering!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly, I travel quite a bit with my job, once or twice India.
Secondly, the EU working time directive is a bit of a red herring, don't you think. The working time directive quotes a maximum working week of 48 hours, averaged over 13 weeks. It only effects the number of overtime hours worked. The funny thing is, the sectors where overtime is worked most like police, doctors etc have no protection because as part of their contract, they sign away their rights.
What do you think the massive strikes are across France right now, the French workers aren't getting any protection, are they?
Thirdly, if you understood the structure of the banking world and who owns the banks, you wouldn't be so naïve. They know their figure are wrong, they hatched them up together, the last thing they want is this cushy little money spinner falling down. It's going to fall down, it's a house of cards. Do you not realize that when the EU collapses, which it will, the individual countries will pick themselves up and carry on. The EU adds no value whatsoever.
As for sexual violence, are you completely deaf and blind to what is happening in Sweden, Germany and France. In Germany, particularly Cologne, over 100 women were gang raped on new years eve alone.
In Germany, women are being advised not to wear short skirts or perfume because muslims believe it is an invite.
Don't believe me? do you know how to use google.
Also, whilst you're at it, google "Coudenhove Kalergi".
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to add the working time directive is just an example i used.
So are you telling me all that all the pros are wrong, if so i better leave my job. Yes i too working in the banking industry!
Also you state they are Muslims that concluded the sexual violence (which i agree they were) are they German Citizens? If so why don't you google to find out which Citizens they were (oops Migrants) that are not in the EU unless you truly believe that EU also consumes Egypt, Libya, Iraq and Syria. Clue there mate! This will still happen even if we leave!
comment by Number 1 unless we are number 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 (U15631)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 9 seconds ago
comment by Number 1 unless we are number 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 (U15631)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Brennie Babes (U8994)
posted 1 day, 17 hours ago
Sorry my computer decided to die just as i posted this thread. @alex. To be honest i was expecting some brexiters to come on here and start stating' facts' but none so far. It's easier to discount individual arguments than make a whole one, especially on something so complex. Here's a starter though....
The remain campaign has been based on facts, statistics and informed opinion, whilst the leave campaign has relied on accusing the remainers of 'scaremongering' (extremely hypocritical really considering their use of statistics), making promises they know they can't keep, and relying on people's emotions rather than evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're so, so wrong.
Some of the facts put out by the Remain campaign.
1st Lie
By 2030, each household will be poorer by £4,600.
They got that figure by guessing a reduction of GDP by 2030 and dividing it by the number of households.
Firstly, the government, bank of England and IMF can't even get forecasts correct 12 months ahead, how the hell do they accurately forecast 14 years ahead? Secondly, GDP is a value that includes materials, energy, cappex and many, many other things, , which does include gross salaries. Even if the guestimate of reduction of GDP was correct, only 1/10th of that, divided by number of households would be close.
2nd Lie
Britain is safer in Europe?
Well, considering we are one of the only two members with nuclear weapons and delivery system, we are 1 of 5 permanent members of the UN security council. We are a member of NATO and along with France, we are the leaders in security, espionage and counter-terrorism. None of this would be effected by leaving the EU.
Those are just two of the lies put out by the Remain campaign.
I think you will find that the Leave campaign is mainly based on what is already happening now, how can that be a lie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you been to America or India or China or anywhere else apart from the EU?
Now lets forget the rubbish the media tell us, first the working time directive. Oh yeah is an EU directive means we get paid healthy but also to make sure we are not working as slaves. Now Americans work time is slightly different, hell so is India and china. Do you get what I am saying they work longer for less.
Secondly you are saying the IMF can't predict anything, well to be honest that is what a prediction is. When all say it will be worse do you surely think they are ALL wrong.
Your second point, i think you have misused the phrase, it does not only correlate to security which I agree would make no difference, actually for the leave campaign to even suggest that there will be more sexual offences caused if we remain in is nonsense. He was talking about non EU immigrants which caused this. This would still happen!
To me i think this is scaremongering!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly, I travel quite a bit with my job, once or twice India.
Secondly, the EU working time directive is a bit of a red herring, don't you think. The working time directive quotes a maximum working week of 48 hours, averaged over 13 weeks. It only effects the number of overtime hours worked. The funny thing is, the sectors where overtime is worked most like police, doctors etc have no protection because as part of their contract, they sign away their rights.
What do you think the massive strikes are across France right now, the French workers aren't getting any protection, are they?
Thirdly, if you understood the structure of the banking world and who owns the banks, you wouldn't be so naïve. They know their figure are wrong, they hatched them up together, the last thing they want is this cushy little money spinner falling down. It's going to fall down, it's a house of cards. Do you not realize that when the EU collapses, which it will, the individual countries will pick themselves up and carry on. The EU adds no value whatsoever.
As for sexual violence, are you completely deaf and blind to what is happening in Sweden, Germany and France. In Germany, particularly Cologne, over 100 women were gang raped on new years eve alone.
In Germany, women are being advised not to wear short skirts or perfume because muslims believe it is an invite.
Don't believe me? do you know how to use google.
Also, whilst you're at it, google "Coudenhove Kalergi".
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to add the working time directive is just an example i used.
So are you telling me all that all the pros are wrong, if so i better leave my job. Yes i too working in the banking industry!
Also you state they are Muslims that concluded the sexual violence (which i agree they were) are they German Citizens? If so why don't you google to find out which Citizens they were (oops Migrants) that are not in the EU unless you truly believe that EU also consumes Egypt, Libya, Iraq and Syria. Clue there mate! This will still happen even if we leave!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If we leave, we will have the rights to export them because we can overrule the ECHR. at present, anybody, of any nationality to claim for a variety of reasons that they have a right to stay in the UK, maybe they have a sister here that needs protecting and we are forced to let them stay.
There are 13,000 convicted criminals both walking free or in UK jails, over half are from EU countries. We cannot deport them because they just claim rights, get a free lawyer, go to the ECHR and we are told that they have to stay.
comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 58 minutes ago
comment by Number 1 unless we are number 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 (U15631)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 9 seconds ago
comment by Number 1 unless we are number 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 (U15631)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Brennie Babes (U8994)
posted 1 day, 17 hours ago
Sorry my computer decided to die just as i posted this thread. @alex. To be honest i was expecting some brexiters to come on here and start stating' facts' but none so far. It's easier to discount individual arguments than make a whole one, especially on something so complex. Here's a starter though....
The remain campaign has been based on facts, statistics and informed opinion, whilst the leave campaign has relied on accusing the remainers of 'scaremongering' (extremely hypocritical really considering their use of statistics), making promises they know they can't keep, and relying on people's emotions rather than evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're so, so wrong.
Some of the facts put out by the Remain campaign.
1st Lie
By 2030, each household will be poorer by £4,600.
They got that figure by guessing a reduction of GDP by 2030 and dividing it by the number of households.
Firstly, the government, bank of England and IMF can't even get forecasts correct 12 months ahead, how the hell do they accurately forecast 14 years ahead? Secondly, GDP is a value that includes materials, energy, cappex and many, many other things, , which does include gross salaries. Even if the guestimate of reduction of GDP was correct, only 1/10th of that, divided by number of households would be close.
2nd Lie
Britain is safer in Europe?
Well, considering we are one of the only two members with nuclear weapons and delivery system, we are 1 of 5 permanent members of the UN security council. We are a member of NATO and along with France, we are the leaders in security, espionage and counter-terrorism. None of this would be effected by leaving the EU.
Those are just two of the lies put out by the Remain campaign.
I think you will find that the Leave campaign is mainly based on what is already happening now, how can that be a lie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you been to America or India or China or anywhere else apart from the EU?
Now lets forget the rubbish the media tell us, first the working time directive. Oh yeah is an EU directive means we get paid healthy but also to make sure we are not working as slaves. Now Americans work time is slightly different, hell so is India and china. Do you get what I am saying they work longer for less.
Secondly you are saying the IMF can't predict anything, well to be honest that is what a prediction is. When all say it will be worse do you surely think they are ALL wrong.
Your second point, i think you have misused the phrase, it does not only correlate to security which I agree would make no difference, actually for the leave campaign to even suggest that there will be more sexual offences caused if we remain in is nonsense. He was talking about non EU immigrants which caused this. This would still happen!
To me i think this is scaremongering!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly, I travel quite a bit with my job, once or twice India.
Secondly, the EU working time directive is a bit of a red herring, don't you think. The working time directive quotes a maximum working week of 48 hours, averaged over 13 weeks. It only effects the number of overtime hours worked. The funny thing is, the sectors where overtime is worked most like police, doctors etc have no protection because as part of their contract, they sign away their rights.
What do you think the massive strikes are across France right now, the French workers aren't getting any protection, are they?
Thirdly, if you understood the structure of the banking world and who owns the banks, you wouldn't be so naïve. They know their figure are wrong, they hatched them up together, the last thing they want is this cushy little money spinner falling down. It's going to fall down, it's a house of cards. Do you not realize that when the EU collapses, which it will, the individual countries will pick themselves up and carry on. The EU adds no value whatsoever.
As for sexual violence, are you completely deaf and blind to what is happening in Sweden, Germany and France. In Germany, particularly Cologne, over 100 women were gang raped on new years eve alone.
In Germany, women are being advised not to wear short skirts or perfume because muslims believe it is an invite.
Don't believe me? do you know how to use google.
Also, whilst you're at it, google "Coudenhove Kalergi".
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to add the working time directive is just an example i used.
So are you telling me all that all the pros are wrong, if so i better leave my job. Yes i too working in the banking industry!
Also you state they are Muslims that concluded the sexual violence (which i agree they were) are they German Citizens? If so why don't you google to find out which Citizens they were (oops Migrants) that are not in the EU unless you truly believe that EU also consumes Egypt, Libya, Iraq and Syria. Clue there mate! This will still happen even if we leave!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If we leave, we will have the rights to export them because we can overrule the ECHR. at present, anybody, of any nationality to claim for a variety of reasons that they have a right to stay in the UK, maybe they have a sister here that needs protecting and we are forced to let them stay.
There are 13,000 convicted criminals both walking free or in UK jails, over half are from EU countries. We cannot deport them because they just claim rights, get a free lawyer, go to the ECHR and we are told that they have to stay.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
While I agree with what you are saying in that we will have more control. Leaving will not stop that thing from happening because if they get into UK then how can this be stopped. True this can be deported but this will only happen once this act has occurred by said individual. By the way just to show you it is scaremongering
Treasury minister Andrea Leadsom, who backs Brexit has said this is wrong!
comment by Redinthehead - FreeGaza - فلسطين (U1860)
posted 8 hours, 25 minutes ago
Still no facts or figures from the leave camp..
The UK needs the EU as an export market far more than the EU needs the UK as an export market. As was put forward by a contributor earlier, current exports to the EU is 44% of our total exports.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The leave camp can't post facts because they won't be forming a government. If we vote to leave it's still up to the government to decide how to spend the money.
Similarly the remain camp can't post facts about leaving, that's why every comment they make says could or might happen.
Is the 44% the value of goods or the number of goods? Selling one Rolls Royce engine to USA could be seen as better than selling 1000 coat hangers to the EU.
Gotta be the value of goods, rather than number of pieces / weight or man hour costs.
This would suggest its number.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36229579
I think we should team up with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and form our own union to compete with the EU.
I think it boils down to three main reasons for out voters.
1. They want an end to immigration. This won't happen in my opinion as we'll have to negotiate a deal with the EU like Norway, allowing free movement, thus possibly signing up to Schengen, which will mean more immigration as Schengen visa holders only need to get it in another EU country which allows them free travel, which the UK aren't part of. Some countries not in the EU have agreements for visa free travel to Schengen countries.
2. How much we pay to the EU. This is dwarfed by how much we gain from it, from taxes taken from EU nationals etc.
3. Having our own laws. Whilst this will be partially true in regards to laws needed to trade with EU countries we still have to accept the laws, like free movement, like Norway have to, in order to trade, whilst having to pay more for the privilege. Also we have no say in those laws as we don't have any representation in the EU, which would be worse for us.
For me despite all the nonsense and scaremongering from both sides, it's a no contest. In.
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The Brexit Thread
Page 5 of 9
6 | 7 | 8 | 9
posted on 6/6/16
Ultimately, trade is not a problem - to the contrary, the U.K will thrive by making free trade deals with the rest of the world (yes, they exist)
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You imbecile... Free trade deals with the rest of the world? How is the trade deal doing with China? Where our steel industry is on its knees due to cheap imports!
If the trade with China was 'free' the steel industry would already be dead and buried, along with anything else China can produce that we currently do.
Simple fact, lower production costs = cheaper products flooding the market under your "free trade" deal.
Jesus Christ!
posted on 6/6/16
Red
The knock-on effects of free trading with certain countries just because they're cheaper will be devastating. It won't only cost jobs it will lower working standards as the UK attempts to compete.
Of course the successful business owners will love it. American 0 days paid leave? Yes. Japanese 12 hour work days? Awesome. Chinese levels of industrial smog? Fantastic. Indian health and safety? Sign me up.
That's the future with a Tory gov left purely to their own devices. A quick money grab at the expense of the general populous. That's why we are currently in a stronger position by remaining in the far from perfect EU.
posted on 6/6/16
Science, that is what is known as the race to the bottom.
It is severely out of sync with EU policies that are to increase standards of quality and living standards.
The issue I have with immigration debates is that it always seems to be targeted at those of a poorer background that come to a more affluent area of Europe to better themselves.
Why shouldn't they better themselves? It's as though someone wants to lord it over others to say "im better than you"
In my book, if someone wants to travel thousands of km's to take a job away from their home, they are quite welcome to do so.
If someone local had filled that position there wouldn't be a need in the first place, would there?
And still we so no figures, or facts from the leave brigade... just conjecture.
Is that what people are going to be voting on? The conjecture of others?
Jesus Christ!
posted on 6/6/16
*still we see no figures...
posted on 6/6/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 6/6/16
You don't think German car manufacturers would risk sales because of political union do you.
------------------------------------
The only reason German car manufacturers sell a lot to us is due to being in the same market and EU requirements. We lose this if we leave.
If we leave we go on the same footing as the likes of China and US. EU would obviously prefer to strike a deal with the two as they're a lot more likely to bring in more income/sales with population of 300m+ and 1bn+. We're only 60m..+
posted on 6/6/16
comment by Ttliv87 (U11882)
posted 5 hours, 26 minutes ago
As long as we are in deficit with the EU they wouldn't dare try the tariff game, because there would only be one winner. You don't put tariffs on your biggest customers.
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Again see my comment above. We're EUs biggest customer because we're in the same market.
Russia have been one of EUs gas suppliers and people said EU wouldn't dare touch them... sanctions etc. I wonder how that is going. We're a great country but let's be realistic..
posted on 6/6/16
Still no facts or figures from the leave camp..
The UK needs the EU as an export market far more than the EU needs the UK as an export market. As was put forward by a contributor earlier, current exports to the EU is 44% of our total exports.
posted on 6/6/16
As long as we are in deficit with the EU they wouldn't dare try the tariff game
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We are in deficit because we need those products. Why would we purchase from Europe if there was an equivalent product in the UK?
We have free trade with the EU because we are in the EU.
You can't get better than free.
We would have to renegotiate terms with the EU, that will be worse (can't get better than free)
And still not one contributor has put forward what legislation from the EU they would describe as wholly bad.
posted on 6/6/16
"Sorry Metro, you've had a mare here and I'm going to laugh in your general direction
EFTA members are Norway, Iceland, Lichtenstein, Switzerland.. We are going to trade with them instead of the EU?"
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I've had a mare have I?
You've just proven that you have a very basic understanding of the EFTA.
At no point did I state that we would trade with the current members instead of the EU. The point is that they all have access to the single market without being members of the European political union.
This doesn't mean that the UK would have a mirrored agreement. Ours would be superior given our economy. I think you clearly under-estimate the UKs muscle.
----
"You still have to bilateral treaties independently - which will then still mean you have to sign up to some European legislation (of which incidentally not one person on here has pointed out any legislation that is bad)"
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No - Switzerland has such agreements. The UK isn't Switzerland pal.
The overall point is that different countries have different agreements dependent on their economic circumstances. You think Country X must be equal to Countty Y (it's teenage stuff)
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"Metro you've provided zero facts to back up any of your arguments.
Start with a simple one.
Population of the 27 EU countries
Population of the 4 EFTA countries.
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I've backed up everything. You're the one who has failed to grasp the basic points being made.
Nobody is saying that trade with the EFTA replaces trade with the EU - You conjured this out of thin air.
posted on 6/6/16
You've offered no facts or figures for anything and are blowing hot air as you have done through your points on this discussion.
Every single one of those EFTA members have bilateral treaties with the EU.
What makes you think that the EU will give the UK the same "free" trade deal that it doesn't give other EFTA members?
Go on.. Answer that one
Once you've answered that, you can go ahead answer whether the EFTA members will allow the UK into it (you can't just buy a ticket and turn up) if the UK will be getting better terms than them.
Also, the EU encumber/ EFTA with a lot of EU legislation anyway to trade with the EU (but not free trade)
So can you at least answer instead of providing guff like, "The UK is not Switzerland" I mean - what are you trying to say there ffs?
posted on 6/6/16
Metro to defend my previous comment, this is what you said :
"... You do realise that there is a free trade zone in Europe called EFTA (European Free Trade Association) which consists of Norway, Iceland, Switzerland and Liechtenstein who, you guessed it are non eu nations."
EFTA is a free trade zone featuring those countries. So it read as though you were saying the UK would have free trade with those countries at the expense of removing free trade with the EU.
posted on 6/6/16
comment by 19th title coming soon. (U12879)
posted 1 day, 15 hours ago
The argument is about so much more than exports. I don't think you really understand. The pound has already lost a lot of value because of the referendum. It will lose another 20% of its value if we leave. This means that everyone wil be poorer, there will be high inflation and there will be job losses, and that doesn't count ones directly related to the EU
that's speculative at best, and just plain wrong at worst.
firstly, there's absolutely no way to quantify any post-vote percentage drop in the value of the pound at this point. some devaluation against other currencies will have already occurred, and will continue up to the vote, a leave vote will have already been largely factored into the exchange rates by then, there would not necessarily be another large drop in value.
secondly, assuming there is a large drop in the value of sterling, that would make british made goods far more attractive to price based british consumers than European goods, aiding our struggling manufacturing base, making our exports more attractive to other countries, therefore creating jobs, not losing them. and giving a much needed boost to our balance of payments.
as for all this better together malarkey. the eu, eec, common market, whatever people want to call it, is not co-operation to improve everything for Europeans, it was never designed as such, it was initially started as a way to expand the energy/fuel/coal/metals markets across the major European countries to prevent one country (Germany) having control of the markets for the resources required to wage war.
the EU was designed from the start for subjugation, not freedom. it's just that the most powerful country in the eu now is the one it was supposed to be subjugating.
and no, there is no democratic Europe, yes, we can vote for the eu ministers, the parliament, but they don't create the laws, the commission does, and there's not one member of the general public in Europe who can vote for any of the members of that.
as for Europe being bigger, getting better trade deals with countries outside Europe than we could alone, we could already have several very lucrative trade deals in place on our own, but we're prevented from doing so by Europe, one of them, with Canada, Europe's own deal with Canada is currently being held up by (vetoed) by a completely unrelated argument about Romanian visa's. WTF? why should that be blocking any trade deal?
and everything's going to be fair in Europe? nope. ask Greece. ask spain. ask Italy. again all being subjugated and forced into austerity by the richer northern countries.
in the first years of the euro, every country had the same fiscal rules, france and Germany broke them every year. no penalties. spain and Italy stuck to the rules. post financial collapse. private sector debt got the banks into trouble, not the governments, spain and Italy broke the fiscal limits to try saving their banking systems. france and Germany imposed penalties on them, and forced them into austerity budgets.
Greece is now being forced to privatise damn near everything, which will likely be bought up by german and French utility companies. they'll basically own Greece's infrastructure at wholesale prices, and still force Greece to pay them for it.
none of the financial problems we've seen over the last 8-10 years have been fixed, all they've done is paper over the cracks, and kicked the can down the road, give themselves a year/18 months breathing space, and then kick it again.
the fundamental problems with the euro, a single interest rate across disparate markets, the emasculation of sovereign central banks, but keeping sovereign bonds, and debts. the disparity between the northern members and the southern members. the fundamental weakness of the French and Italian banks. it's all still there waiting to blow up. for all their talking, and can kicking, they've not solved a single problem yet.
the Eurozone, the EEC, EU is broken. it's a nice idea, and if done properly would be great, but it's current incarnation is not fit for purpose. the rising anti-eu sentiment across ALL of Europe is indicative of the increasing disillusionment of the populace with those in control, who will not listen to the populous, who have no desire or will, or too many vested interests, to see it be reformed into something useful.
i'm not anti-Europe, as I said, I think it's actually a good idea, but as it is, it doesn't work, and they won't change it, as such, they're leaving very little option but to see it torn down.
maybe it can be done properly in future, but I'm not holding out much hope for that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Um just to make you aware while you may be correct in
***************
and no, there is no democratic Europe, yes, we can vote for the eu ministers, the parliament, but they don't create the laws, the commission does, and there's not one member of the general public in Europe who can vote for any of the members of that.
*****************
We sort of do. Just hear me out for a second.
We select MEPs which have to opportunity to reject any legislation and directives set out by these top dudes. Even so we have one angling for UK. Yes and while we did not put him there our leaders did. So in theory if you look at it we the general public voted for our government who decide who will represent us at the top table in the EU parliament. The poeple who we voted for in EU elections aka MEPs are there to reject anything that comes out. So while we did not vote to put them there we did have a slight hand in putting our own men there.
posted on 6/6/16
For me the main issue of the EU Referendum is that of the rich and super rich, living in their own separate world, where they are not only NOT affected by the consequences of out of control immigration but in fact PROFIT from it, versus the real people who take the brunt of paying taxes and receiving reducing services as a result of the actions of the super rich.
You see, big business, which is owned by the super rich, loves cheap EU labour, it brings them even more profits. They don’t care that the tax payers then subsidise those EU migrants through in work benefits to the tune of up to £26k per family.
A couple of recent reports state that these subsidies, added to the unemployment benefits paid to the UK citizen who job is taken by the migrant, costs the UK tax payers around £76bn per year. That pales the nett membership fees of £12bn into insignificance.
Yes, that’s right £76bn, that’s approximately £2,300 per year of every working adult in the UK.
That’s why you pay tax on your wages and then pay tax on the remainder which has already been taxed.
Fuel tax, road tax, insurance tax, VAT and many, many, many more, too mention here.
For instance an EU migrant working family (2 adults, 3 children) may earn just £15k per year in wages, and they would pay NO tax, they would get tax credits and other in work benefits, including child benefit and housing benefit up to the benefits cap of £26k. So the net financial position to Britain is already -£26k!
This is BEFORE the cost of state services such as health and social care are taken into account. For instance schooling per year for the three children would cost £15k per annum! Therefore the financial loss to Britain’s has already reached £41k per annum before we even touch on any other costs of servicing a low paid EU family.
So forget the £30 million nett we hand over to the EU, well don’t forget it, add it to the £208 million per day that mass migration costs us.
Why politicians are pissing about with the £55m per day argument, I don’t know.
You don’t believe me? Well do the research, look at all the NI numbers given over to immigrants each year, multiply the above by that, and then half it so that we’re not exaggerating.
The above is just the financial pain for the working UK citizen.
That’s without the social costs of mass migration in terms of housing, school places, access to health services, for instance getting to see a dentist has become near impossible as dentists revise their conditions for remaining as a registered patient down from 2 years towards 12 months so that when a British patient phones they are told point blank that they are no longer registered due to demand for NHS.
None of this is a problem for the rich, they’ve got private dental and medical plans where they don’t sit in waiting rooms. They live in affluent areas. Basically the super rich, the elite, do not inhabit the same world as us.
Lord Green and Virgin’s Branson and other vested interests such as senior politicians seeking to retire to a cozy positions in Brussels, and the mainstream media such as the BBC who have been banging the propaganda drum the loudest for a REMAIN vote outcome, for it serves their interests and NOT that of most of the British people!
Most of all, the above is based on the migrants that have already arrived, it can only get much worse every year with migration running at 330,000.
In my view, the only migrants we should be accepting are those that have special skills that are required for a role where there is no such skill available already.
So yeah, I’m a penny pinching racist.
posted on 6/6/16
comment by Brennie Babes (U8994)
posted 1 day, 17 hours ago
Sorry my computer decided to die just as i posted this thread. @alex. To be honest i was expecting some brexiters to come on here and start stating' facts' but none so far. It's easier to discount individual arguments than make a whole one, especially on something so complex. Here's a starter though....
The remain campaign has been based on facts, statistics and informed opinion, whilst the leave campaign has relied on accusing the remainers of 'scaremongering' (extremely hypocritical really considering their use of statistics), making promises they know they can't keep, and relying on people's emotions rather than evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're so, so wrong.
Some of the facts put out by the Remain campaign.
1st Lie
By 2030, each household will be poorer by £4,600.
They got that figure by guessing a reduction of GDP by 2030 and dividing it by the number of households.
Firstly, the government, bank of England and IMF can't even get forecasts correct 12 months ahead, how the hell do they accurately forecast 14 years ahead? Secondly, GDP is a value that includes materials, energy, cappex and many, many other things, , which does include gross salaries. Even if the guestimate of reduction of GDP was correct, only 1/10th of that, divided by number of households would be close.
2nd Lie
Britain is safer in Europe?
Well, considering we are one of the only two members with nuclear weapons and delivery system, we are 1 of 5 permanent members of the UN security council. We are a member of NATO and along with France, we are the leaders in security, espionage and counter-terrorism. None of this would be effected by leaving the EU.
Those are just two of the lies put out by the Remain campaign.
I think you will find that the Leave campaign is mainly based on what is already happening now, how can that be a lie.
posted on 6/6/16
comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Brennie Babes (U8994)
posted 1 day, 17 hours ago
Sorry my computer decided to die just as i posted this thread. @alex. To be honest i was expecting some brexiters to come on here and start stating' facts' but none so far. It's easier to discount individual arguments than make a whole one, especially on something so complex. Here's a starter though....
The remain campaign has been based on facts, statistics and informed opinion, whilst the leave campaign has relied on accusing the remainers of 'scaremongering' (extremely hypocritical really considering their use of statistics), making promises they know they can't keep, and relying on people's emotions rather than evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're so, so wrong.
Some of the facts put out by the Remain campaign.
1st Lie
By 2030, each household will be poorer by £4,600.
They got that figure by guessing a reduction of GDP by 2030 and dividing it by the number of households.
Firstly, the government, bank of England and IMF can't even get forecasts correct 12 months ahead, how the hell do they accurately forecast 14 years ahead? Secondly, GDP is a value that includes materials, energy, cappex and many, many other things, , which does include gross salaries. Even if the guestimate of reduction of GDP was correct, only 1/10th of that, divided by number of households would be close.
2nd Lie
Britain is safer in Europe?
Well, considering we are one of the only two members with nuclear weapons and delivery system, we are 1 of 5 permanent members of the UN security council. We are a member of NATO and along with France, we are the leaders in security, espionage and counter-terrorism. None of this would be effected by leaving the EU.
Those are just two of the lies put out by the Remain campaign.
I think you will find that the Leave campaign is mainly based on what is already happening now, how can that be a lie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you been to America or India or China or anywhere else apart from the EU?
Now lets forget the rubbish the media tell us, first the working time directive. Oh yeah is an EU directive means we get paid healthy but also to make sure we are not working as slaves. Now Americans work time is slightly different, hell so is India and china. Do you get what I am saying they work longer for less.
Secondly you are saying the IMF can't predict anything, well to be honest that is what a prediction is. When all say it will be worse do you surely think they are ALL wrong.
Your second point, i think you have misused the phrase, it does not only correlate to security which I agree would make no difference, actually for the leave campaign to even suggest that there will be more sexual offences caused if we remain in is nonsense. He was talking about non EU immigrants which caused this. This would still happen!
To me i think this is scaremongering!
posted on 6/6/16
comment by Number 1 unless we are number 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 (U15631)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Brennie Babes (U8994)
posted 1 day, 17 hours ago
Sorry my computer decided to die just as i posted this thread. @alex. To be honest i was expecting some brexiters to come on here and start stating' facts' but none so far. It's easier to discount individual arguments than make a whole one, especially on something so complex. Here's a starter though....
The remain campaign has been based on facts, statistics and informed opinion, whilst the leave campaign has relied on accusing the remainers of 'scaremongering' (extremely hypocritical really considering their use of statistics), making promises they know they can't keep, and relying on people's emotions rather than evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're so, so wrong.
Some of the facts put out by the Remain campaign.
1st Lie
By 2030, each household will be poorer by £4,600.
They got that figure by guessing a reduction of GDP by 2030 and dividing it by the number of households.
Firstly, the government, bank of England and IMF can't even get forecasts correct 12 months ahead, how the hell do they accurately forecast 14 years ahead? Secondly, GDP is a value that includes materials, energy, cappex and many, many other things, , which does include gross salaries. Even if the guestimate of reduction of GDP was correct, only 1/10th of that, divided by number of households would be close.
2nd Lie
Britain is safer in Europe?
Well, considering we are one of the only two members with nuclear weapons and delivery system, we are 1 of 5 permanent members of the UN security council. We are a member of NATO and along with France, we are the leaders in security, espionage and counter-terrorism. None of this would be effected by leaving the EU.
Those are just two of the lies put out by the Remain campaign.
I think you will find that the Leave campaign is mainly based on what is already happening now, how can that be a lie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you been to America or India or China or anywhere else apart from the EU?
Now lets forget the rubbish the media tell us, first the working time directive. Oh yeah is an EU directive means we get paid healthy but also to make sure we are not working as slaves. Now Americans work time is slightly different, hell so is India and china. Do you get what I am saying they work longer for less.
Secondly you are saying the IMF can't predict anything, well to be honest that is what a prediction is. When all say it will be worse do you surely think they are ALL wrong.
Your second point, i think you have misused the phrase, it does not only correlate to security which I agree would make no difference, actually for the leave campaign to even suggest that there will be more sexual offences caused if we remain in is nonsense. He was talking about non EU immigrants which caused this. This would still happen!
To me i think this is scaremongering!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly, I travel quite a bit with my job, once or twice India.
Secondly, the EU working time directive is a bit of a red herring, don't you think. The working time directive quotes a maximum working week of 48 hours, averaged over 13 weeks. It only effects the number of overtime hours worked. The funny thing is, the sectors where overtime is worked most like police, doctors etc have no protection because as part of their contract, they sign away their rights.
What do you think the massive strikes are across France right now, the French workers aren't getting any protection, are they?
Thirdly, if you understood the structure of the banking world and who owns the banks, you wouldn't be so naïve. They know their figure are wrong, they hatched them up together, the last thing they want is this cushy little money spinner falling down. It's going to fall down, it's a house of cards. Do you not realize that when the EU collapses, which it will, the individual countries will pick themselves up and carry on. The EU adds no value whatsoever.
As for sexual violence, are you completely deaf and blind to what is happening in Sweden, Germany and France. In Germany, particularly Cologne, over 100 women were gang raped on new years eve alone.
In Germany, women are being advised not to wear short skirts or perfume because muslims believe it is an invite.
Don't believe me? do you know how to use google.
Also, whilst you're at it, google "Coudenhove Kalergi".
posted on 6/6/16
comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 9 seconds ago
comment by Number 1 unless we are number 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 (U15631)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Brennie Babes (U8994)
posted 1 day, 17 hours ago
Sorry my computer decided to die just as i posted this thread. @alex. To be honest i was expecting some brexiters to come on here and start stating' facts' but none so far. It's easier to discount individual arguments than make a whole one, especially on something so complex. Here's a starter though....
The remain campaign has been based on facts, statistics and informed opinion, whilst the leave campaign has relied on accusing the remainers of 'scaremongering' (extremely hypocritical really considering their use of statistics), making promises they know they can't keep, and relying on people's emotions rather than evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're so, so wrong.
Some of the facts put out by the Remain campaign.
1st Lie
By 2030, each household will be poorer by £4,600.
They got that figure by guessing a reduction of GDP by 2030 and dividing it by the number of households.
Firstly, the government, bank of England and IMF can't even get forecasts correct 12 months ahead, how the hell do they accurately forecast 14 years ahead? Secondly, GDP is a value that includes materials, energy, cappex and many, many other things, , which does include gross salaries. Even if the guestimate of reduction of GDP was correct, only 1/10th of that, divided by number of households would be close.
2nd Lie
Britain is safer in Europe?
Well, considering we are one of the only two members with nuclear weapons and delivery system, we are 1 of 5 permanent members of the UN security council. We are a member of NATO and along with France, we are the leaders in security, espionage and counter-terrorism. None of this would be effected by leaving the EU.
Those are just two of the lies put out by the Remain campaign.
I think you will find that the Leave campaign is mainly based on what is already happening now, how can that be a lie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you been to America or India or China or anywhere else apart from the EU?
Now lets forget the rubbish the media tell us, first the working time directive. Oh yeah is an EU directive means we get paid healthy but also to make sure we are not working as slaves. Now Americans work time is slightly different, hell so is India and china. Do you get what I am saying they work longer for less.
Secondly you are saying the IMF can't predict anything, well to be honest that is what a prediction is. When all say it will be worse do you surely think they are ALL wrong.
Your second point, i think you have misused the phrase, it does not only correlate to security which I agree would make no difference, actually for the leave campaign to even suggest that there will be more sexual offences caused if we remain in is nonsense. He was talking about non EU immigrants which caused this. This would still happen!
To me i think this is scaremongering!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly, I travel quite a bit with my job, once or twice India.
Secondly, the EU working time directive is a bit of a red herring, don't you think. The working time directive quotes a maximum working week of 48 hours, averaged over 13 weeks. It only effects the number of overtime hours worked. The funny thing is, the sectors where overtime is worked most like police, doctors etc have no protection because as part of their contract, they sign away their rights.
What do you think the massive strikes are across France right now, the French workers aren't getting any protection, are they?
Thirdly, if you understood the structure of the banking world and who owns the banks, you wouldn't be so naïve. They know their figure are wrong, they hatched them up together, the last thing they want is this cushy little money spinner falling down. It's going to fall down, it's a house of cards. Do you not realize that when the EU collapses, which it will, the individual countries will pick themselves up and carry on. The EU adds no value whatsoever.
As for sexual violence, are you completely deaf and blind to what is happening in Sweden, Germany and France. In Germany, particularly Cologne, over 100 women were gang raped on new years eve alone.
In Germany, women are being advised not to wear short skirts or perfume because muslims believe it is an invite.
Don't believe me? do you know how to use google.
Also, whilst you're at it, google "Coudenhove Kalergi".
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to add the working time directive is just an example i used.
So are you telling me all that all the pros are wrong, if so i better leave my job. Yes i too working in the banking industry!
Also you state they are Muslims that concluded the sexual violence (which i agree they were) are they German Citizens? If so why don't you google to find out which Citizens they were (oops Migrants) that are not in the EU unless you truly believe that EU also consumes Egypt, Libya, Iraq and Syria. Clue there mate! This will still happen even if we leave!
posted on 6/6/16
comment by Number 1 unless we are number 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 (U15631)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 9 seconds ago
comment by Number 1 unless we are number 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 (U15631)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Brennie Babes (U8994)
posted 1 day, 17 hours ago
Sorry my computer decided to die just as i posted this thread. @alex. To be honest i was expecting some brexiters to come on here and start stating' facts' but none so far. It's easier to discount individual arguments than make a whole one, especially on something so complex. Here's a starter though....
The remain campaign has been based on facts, statistics and informed opinion, whilst the leave campaign has relied on accusing the remainers of 'scaremongering' (extremely hypocritical really considering their use of statistics), making promises they know they can't keep, and relying on people's emotions rather than evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're so, so wrong.
Some of the facts put out by the Remain campaign.
1st Lie
By 2030, each household will be poorer by £4,600.
They got that figure by guessing a reduction of GDP by 2030 and dividing it by the number of households.
Firstly, the government, bank of England and IMF can't even get forecasts correct 12 months ahead, how the hell do they accurately forecast 14 years ahead? Secondly, GDP is a value that includes materials, energy, cappex and many, many other things, , which does include gross salaries. Even if the guestimate of reduction of GDP was correct, only 1/10th of that, divided by number of households would be close.
2nd Lie
Britain is safer in Europe?
Well, considering we are one of the only two members with nuclear weapons and delivery system, we are 1 of 5 permanent members of the UN security council. We are a member of NATO and along with France, we are the leaders in security, espionage and counter-terrorism. None of this would be effected by leaving the EU.
Those are just two of the lies put out by the Remain campaign.
I think you will find that the Leave campaign is mainly based on what is already happening now, how can that be a lie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you been to America or India or China or anywhere else apart from the EU?
Now lets forget the rubbish the media tell us, first the working time directive. Oh yeah is an EU directive means we get paid healthy but also to make sure we are not working as slaves. Now Americans work time is slightly different, hell so is India and china. Do you get what I am saying they work longer for less.
Secondly you are saying the IMF can't predict anything, well to be honest that is what a prediction is. When all say it will be worse do you surely think they are ALL wrong.
Your second point, i think you have misused the phrase, it does not only correlate to security which I agree would make no difference, actually for the leave campaign to even suggest that there will be more sexual offences caused if we remain in is nonsense. He was talking about non EU immigrants which caused this. This would still happen!
To me i think this is scaremongering!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly, I travel quite a bit with my job, once or twice India.
Secondly, the EU working time directive is a bit of a red herring, don't you think. The working time directive quotes a maximum working week of 48 hours, averaged over 13 weeks. It only effects the number of overtime hours worked. The funny thing is, the sectors where overtime is worked most like police, doctors etc have no protection because as part of their contract, they sign away their rights.
What do you think the massive strikes are across France right now, the French workers aren't getting any protection, are they?
Thirdly, if you understood the structure of the banking world and who owns the banks, you wouldn't be so naïve. They know their figure are wrong, they hatched them up together, the last thing they want is this cushy little money spinner falling down. It's going to fall down, it's a house of cards. Do you not realize that when the EU collapses, which it will, the individual countries will pick themselves up and carry on. The EU adds no value whatsoever.
As for sexual violence, are you completely deaf and blind to what is happening in Sweden, Germany and France. In Germany, particularly Cologne, over 100 women were gang raped on new years eve alone.
In Germany, women are being advised not to wear short skirts or perfume because muslims believe it is an invite.
Don't believe me? do you know how to use google.
Also, whilst you're at it, google "Coudenhove Kalergi".
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to add the working time directive is just an example i used.
So are you telling me all that all the pros are wrong, if so i better leave my job. Yes i too working in the banking industry!
Also you state they are Muslims that concluded the sexual violence (which i agree they were) are they German Citizens? If so why don't you google to find out which Citizens they were (oops Migrants) that are not in the EU unless you truly believe that EU also consumes Egypt, Libya, Iraq and Syria. Clue there mate! This will still happen even if we leave!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If we leave, we will have the rights to export them because we can overrule the ECHR. at present, anybody, of any nationality to claim for a variety of reasons that they have a right to stay in the UK, maybe they have a sister here that needs protecting and we are forced to let them stay.
There are 13,000 convicted criminals both walking free or in UK jails, over half are from EU countries. We cannot deport them because they just claim rights, get a free lawyer, go to the ECHR and we are told that they have to stay.
posted on 6/6/16
comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 58 minutes ago
comment by Number 1 unless we are number 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 (U15631)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 9 seconds ago
comment by Number 1 unless we are number 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 (U15631)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by BaldyBonce (U20818)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Brennie Babes (U8994)
posted 1 day, 17 hours ago
Sorry my computer decided to die just as i posted this thread. @alex. To be honest i was expecting some brexiters to come on here and start stating' facts' but none so far. It's easier to discount individual arguments than make a whole one, especially on something so complex. Here's a starter though....
The remain campaign has been based on facts, statistics and informed opinion, whilst the leave campaign has relied on accusing the remainers of 'scaremongering' (extremely hypocritical really considering their use of statistics), making promises they know they can't keep, and relying on people's emotions rather than evidence
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're so, so wrong.
Some of the facts put out by the Remain campaign.
1st Lie
By 2030, each household will be poorer by £4,600.
They got that figure by guessing a reduction of GDP by 2030 and dividing it by the number of households.
Firstly, the government, bank of England and IMF can't even get forecasts correct 12 months ahead, how the hell do they accurately forecast 14 years ahead? Secondly, GDP is a value that includes materials, energy, cappex and many, many other things, , which does include gross salaries. Even if the guestimate of reduction of GDP was correct, only 1/10th of that, divided by number of households would be close.
2nd Lie
Britain is safer in Europe?
Well, considering we are one of the only two members with nuclear weapons and delivery system, we are 1 of 5 permanent members of the UN security council. We are a member of NATO and along with France, we are the leaders in security, espionage and counter-terrorism. None of this would be effected by leaving the EU.
Those are just two of the lies put out by the Remain campaign.
I think you will find that the Leave campaign is mainly based on what is already happening now, how can that be a lie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you been to America or India or China or anywhere else apart from the EU?
Now lets forget the rubbish the media tell us, first the working time directive. Oh yeah is an EU directive means we get paid healthy but also to make sure we are not working as slaves. Now Americans work time is slightly different, hell so is India and china. Do you get what I am saying they work longer for less.
Secondly you are saying the IMF can't predict anything, well to be honest that is what a prediction is. When all say it will be worse do you surely think they are ALL wrong.
Your second point, i think you have misused the phrase, it does not only correlate to security which I agree would make no difference, actually for the leave campaign to even suggest that there will be more sexual offences caused if we remain in is nonsense. He was talking about non EU immigrants which caused this. This would still happen!
To me i think this is scaremongering!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly, I travel quite a bit with my job, once or twice India.
Secondly, the EU working time directive is a bit of a red herring, don't you think. The working time directive quotes a maximum working week of 48 hours, averaged over 13 weeks. It only effects the number of overtime hours worked. The funny thing is, the sectors where overtime is worked most like police, doctors etc have no protection because as part of their contract, they sign away their rights.
What do you think the massive strikes are across France right now, the French workers aren't getting any protection, are they?
Thirdly, if you understood the structure of the banking world and who owns the banks, you wouldn't be so naïve. They know their figure are wrong, they hatched them up together, the last thing they want is this cushy little money spinner falling down. It's going to fall down, it's a house of cards. Do you not realize that when the EU collapses, which it will, the individual countries will pick themselves up and carry on. The EU adds no value whatsoever.
As for sexual violence, are you completely deaf and blind to what is happening in Sweden, Germany and France. In Germany, particularly Cologne, over 100 women were gang raped on new years eve alone.
In Germany, women are being advised not to wear short skirts or perfume because muslims believe it is an invite.
Don't believe me? do you know how to use google.
Also, whilst you're at it, google "Coudenhove Kalergi".
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to add the working time directive is just an example i used.
So are you telling me all that all the pros are wrong, if so i better leave my job. Yes i too working in the banking industry!
Also you state they are Muslims that concluded the sexual violence (which i agree they were) are they German Citizens? If so why don't you google to find out which Citizens they were (oops Migrants) that are not in the EU unless you truly believe that EU also consumes Egypt, Libya, Iraq and Syria. Clue there mate! This will still happen even if we leave!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If we leave, we will have the rights to export them because we can overrule the ECHR. at present, anybody, of any nationality to claim for a variety of reasons that they have a right to stay in the UK, maybe they have a sister here that needs protecting and we are forced to let them stay.
There are 13,000 convicted criminals both walking free or in UK jails, over half are from EU countries. We cannot deport them because they just claim rights, get a free lawyer, go to the ECHR and we are told that they have to stay.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
While I agree with what you are saying in that we will have more control. Leaving will not stop that thing from happening because if they get into UK then how can this be stopped. True this can be deported but this will only happen once this act has occurred by said individual. By the way just to show you it is scaremongering
Treasury minister Andrea Leadsom, who backs Brexit has said this is wrong!
posted on 6/6/16
comment by Redinthehead - FreeGaza - فلسطين (U1860)
posted 8 hours, 25 minutes ago
Still no facts or figures from the leave camp..
The UK needs the EU as an export market far more than the EU needs the UK as an export market. As was put forward by a contributor earlier, current exports to the EU is 44% of our total exports.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The leave camp can't post facts because they won't be forming a government. If we vote to leave it's still up to the government to decide how to spend the money.
Similarly the remain camp can't post facts about leaving, that's why every comment they make says could or might happen.
Is the 44% the value of goods or the number of goods? Selling one Rolls Royce engine to USA could be seen as better than selling 1000 coat hangers to the EU.
posted on 6/6/16
Gotta be the value of goods, rather than number of pieces / weight or man hour costs.
posted on 6/6/16
This would suggest its number.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36229579
posted on 6/6/16
I think we should team up with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and form our own union to compete with the EU.
posted on 7/6/16
I think it boils down to three main reasons for out voters.
1. They want an end to immigration. This won't happen in my opinion as we'll have to negotiate a deal with the EU like Norway, allowing free movement, thus possibly signing up to Schengen, which will mean more immigration as Schengen visa holders only need to get it in another EU country which allows them free travel, which the UK aren't part of. Some countries not in the EU have agreements for visa free travel to Schengen countries.
2. How much we pay to the EU. This is dwarfed by how much we gain from it, from taxes taken from EU nationals etc.
3. Having our own laws. Whilst this will be partially true in regards to laws needed to trade with EU countries we still have to accept the laws, like free movement, like Norway have to, in order to trade, whilst having to pay more for the privilege. Also we have no say in those laws as we don't have any representation in the EU, which would be worse for us.
For me despite all the nonsense and scaremongering from both sides, it's a no contest. In.
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