comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 23 seconds ago
Or course we make money from selling war. And you and I benefit from that with free education, infrastructure, policing, health care, technological advancement, etc. In all honesty, you probably wouldn't be chatting online in your first world country if none of British history happened.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't want to benifit from it, that's why i try my best to campaign against it with my work. I'm in media so I also can't buy these products if I want to make a change.
It doesn't matter where I move to or what I do I'll be contributing to somebody else's suffering but I can at least try and reduce that suffering.
I could move to Morocco tomorrow but I'd still be living under another corrupt government. I'll carry on doing my best.
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 44 seconds ago
Libyans themselves rose up against Gaddafi, Syrians themselves rose up against Assad.same in Egypt, same in Tunisia...
The Islamic world gave us so much in philosophy, art, science and they have always been led by 'a strong man', be it under the Persians or more recently under individual dictators. All these dictators have been in the pocket of either the Russians or the Americans and lots of times they played one off against the other, now 'the people' want a say but, and its only an argument, they are not conditioned or educated enough in how democracy works or how they would like their version of 'people power' to work and the warlords and general's step into the vacuum and the cycle starts again with new faces and with new actors...Iran and Saudi Arabia filling the vacuum left by Russia's shrinking influence. The West isn't innocent but it's not the only negative force working within Islamic countries and in recent years it's again arguable that Iran and Saudi Arabia have exhacerbated the chaos more than America.
To consistently blame the west for the troubles in the middle east is yesterday's logic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How many people?
Sorry but there is so much information about the Arab spring which point to small factions causing the trouble, espeacially in Libya. Even American documentarians have produced evidence showing that it was only small numbers at these protests.
Egypt was a different matter, they were actually successful in overthrowing Mubarak and a significant number took to the streets.
What happened though?
They democracticlly elected the Muslim Brotherhood in, who I don't like.
They were overthrown illegally by Sisi with the support of America, trump just rolled out a red carpet for him.
Do you remember all of this happening?
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 11 minutes ago
If you work in the cesspit that is media, I suggest you stop using labels as America, West and Saudi Arabia, as you know as well as I do that the countries have little to with it. It is the chosen few, democraticallyelected or not that are the problems.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Haters going to hate
And he has so much hate
You reinforce my point, The Egyptians did elect the brotherhood but as per usual with those not used to democracy, they abused the faith and trust of the people. The power vacuum created by the self serving and disconnected brotherhood was filled by the military, further reaffirming the 'strong man' theory.
Might is right in the middle east. If that means cuddling up to The West to cement power that's what the leaders in that region will do. It's a 2-way street so not entirely the west fault.
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 2 hours, 12 minutes ago
Libyans themselves rose up against Gaddafi, Syrians themselves rose up against Assad.same in Egypt, same in Tunisia...
The Islamic world gave us so much in philosophy, art, science and they have always been led by 'a strong man', be it under the Persians or more recently under individual dictators. All these dictators have been in the pocket of either the Russians or the Americans and lots of times they played one off against the other, now 'the people' want a say but, and its only an argument, they are not conditioned or educated enough in how democracy works or how they would like their version of 'people power' to work and the warlords and general's step into the vacuum and the cycle starts again with new faces and with new actors...Iran and Saudi Arabia filling the vacuum left by Russia's shrinking influence. The West isn't innocent but it's not the only negative force working within Islamic countries and in recent years it's again arguable that Iran and Saudi Arabia have exhacerbated the chaos more than America.
To consistently blame the west for the troubles in the middle east is yesterday's logic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the most concise and coherent posts I have read, Hec!I salute you.
One further thought on the role of America under Obama from some reading today.
Barrack was the thinker who could not lead, whereas, Bush was a leader who could not think....and what was the Obama legacy?
After death and failure in Iraq, Libya and Kabul, Obama stepped back in Syria, for obvious reasons, and the UK agreed in the 2013 bombing vote.However, Obama allowed Russia to enter the void left by the USA, and prior to that, Obama allowed Isis to grow, creating the perfect messy storm in Syria.
Some generals and diplomats believe Obama could have limited the growth of Isis, and Russian influence from 2015 by Limited intervention, not necessarily sending in massive ground troops,,but using some force.
Now, we sadly have refugees spread all over, millions displaced, half a million dead and Russia and Iran acting big.......oh, and Isis!
Caught between another middle east war and doing nothing, Obama wobbled, and sat back way too much, and we are where we are today.
Kung in the media.
I despair😠
Balance anyone?
Great posting Just Shoot, Cal and Hec.
I even read some sense from KFC, among the partizan stuff😃
Here's an example of what happened in Libya to illustrate the treachery and greed of the American and European governments.
All you have to do after this, is apply the same desire to to erase human life, torture, plunder, divide and rape to every other country a single western bullet has been fired since the end of the 2nd World War.
On Libya:
"In a June 7, 2016 posting at Black Opinion, Bob Fitrakis wrote:
The real reasons for the attack have been dealt with most directly by America’s most famous reformed economic hitman, John Perkins.
Perkins points out that the attack on Libya, like the attack on Iraq, has to do with power and control of resources, not only oil, but gold. Libya has the highest standard of living in Africa. According to the IMF, Libya’s Central Bank is 100% state owned. The IMF estimates that the bank has nearly 144 tons of gold in its vaults, Perkins wrote.
NATO went there like modern Barbary Coast Pirates to loot Libya’s gold. The Russian media, in addition to Perkins, reported that the Pan-Africanist Qaddafi, the former President of the African Union, had been advocating that Africa use the gold so plentiful in Libya and South Africa to create an African currency based on a gold dinar.
It is significant that in the months running up to the UN resolution that allowed the U.S. and its allies to send troops into Libya, Muammar al-Qaddafi was openly advocating the creation of a new currency that would rival the dollar and the euro. In fact, he called upon African and Muslim nations to join an alliance that would make this new currency, the gold dinar, their primary form of money and foreign exchange. They would sell oil and other resources to the US and the rest of the world only for gold dinars, Perkins explained."
How well of were Libya?
"Prior to the fall of Gaddafi, oil-rich Libya had cash reserves of $150 billion, and there were 143 tons of gold in Gaddafi’s vaults."
How well of were it's people?
"According to a report titled “Gaddafi’s Libya Was Africa’s Most Prosperous Democracy” by Garikai Chengu that appeared in the January 12, 2013 edition of Countercurrents.org, “. . . Libya was divided into several small communities that were essentially “mini-autonomous States” within a State. These autonomous States had control over their districts and could make a range of decisions including how to allocate oil revenue and budgetary funds."
Chengu writes. “Unlike the West, Libyans did not vote once every four years for a President and local parliamentarian who would then make all decisions for them. Ordinary Libyans made decisions regarding foreign, domestic and economic policy themselves.” Toppling Gaddafi erased a system of government that had functioned smoothly—and fairly—for nearly half a century."
Because it isn't our type of democracy or government it is automatically demonised and freedom bombs begin to rain down of civilians and infrastructure.....
"On July 18, 2011 NATO targeted the Great Man-Made River, a massive irrigation project that brought water to thousands of acres of arid land. The warplanes that perpetrated this heinous act not only destroyed a vital piece of Libya’s infrastructure but on July 22, 2011 also destroyed a factory that according to Ellen Brown in her March 14, 2016 account for The Ecologist produced the only pipes necessary to repair it. This vicious, wanton devastation served no practical purpose whatsoever save for collectively punishing the Libyan people."
This exemplifies the evil western governments are capable of, it's cheerleaders like LQ and Bluebells who enable them to get away with it.
They'ed rather blame 'islamists' whatever that means instead of wasting a single breath on just once calling our government what it is and that's evil for aiding and abetting the desolation of Libya.
"Much has been written about the catastrophe visited upon Libya following the murderous attack by France and the US—400,000 people driven from their homes, an endless cycle of terror and reprisal, the creation of yet another failed state in the wake of a US foreign policy initiative. But the real damage was done to Africa itself, for had Gaddafi’s proposal for a trans-African banking system reached fruition, that unhappy continent for the first time in centuries would have had true freedom and real independence within its grasp, a circumstance the Western powers could not abide. Freedom and justice were never part of the West’s agenda."
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/10/05/the-dreadful-chronology-of-gaddafis-murder/
This is one source of hundreds you can check and re-check to determine what happened in Libya. Everything confirms that western military culture was at play again to extinguish the freedom, justice and more importantly the right to self determination of yet even more Arabs and Muslims for profit.
I then see some despicable characters on here totally in denial of what western governments are up to and decide to blame a religion and if you're bluebells support people like Farage who dehumanise refugees like the Libyans who want sanctuary in Britain even though we helped destroy their homes.
Then I see this...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/10/libya-partition-trump-administration-sebastian-gorka
The Trump administration busy trying to heap even more misery on the Libyans by dividing them further.
If Gaddafi wasn't assassinated North Africa had a likey chance of becoming united. North Africa had a chance of having a currency based on gold, not digits on a computer which has enslaved Africa and plunged the world into economic crises.
It would have given my relatives a chance of a good life in Morocco, instead they face the reality that only one country stands in the way of Daesh in Libya making their way to Morocco and that's Algeria.
How can the Muslim world get back up on it's fit like North Africa tried to when it just gets flattened with bombs? It can't.
Here's a pretty good prediction by Gaddafi before he died.
"It will be a huge disaster if al-Qaida takes over Libya. Al-Qaida would flood Europe with immigrants. We are the ones who prevent al-Qaida from taking over control. They would drag the whole region into chaos … Al-Qaida would take over north Africa."
By they way I forgot to mention we armed and supported the extremists running around Libya now killing everyone... not our fault.
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 1 day, 1 hour ago
You reinforce my point, The Egyptians did elect the brotherhood but as per usual with those not used to democracy, they abused the faith and trust of the people. The power vacuum created by the self serving and disconnected brotherhood was filled by the military, further reaffirming the 'strong man' theory.
Might is right in the middle east. If that means cuddling up to The West to cement power that's what the leaders in that region will do. It's a 2-way street so not entirely the west fault.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
These people are hand picked by the west, they don't gain power then suck off America.
America gives them power and in return they are allowed to rape that country as much as they like.
FYI The Muslim Brotherhood weren't ousted because they abused the trust of the people, they were ousted because of a coup.
Wh could have been involved with that do you think? But then again the CIA also supported The Muslim Brotherhood at certain points.
See where I'm going with this?
comment by LQ (U6305)
posted 1 day, 1 hour ago
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 11 minutes ago
If you work in the cesspit that is media, I suggest you stop using labels as America, West and Saudi Arabia, as you know as well as I do that the countries have little to with it. It is the chosen few, democraticallyelected or not that are the problems.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Haters going to hate
And he has so much hate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd rather pick up a camera rather than a rifle, I'm not a murderer and I won't gleefully back murder like some you who do so by turning a blind eye to our governments dealings.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 1 hour, 41 minutes ago
Is this actually a defence of Gaddafi?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, I have repeated constantly that there isn't a single leader in the Muslim world I like and that includes Gaddafi and Saddam.
I didn't refer to Gaddafi as a good leader a single time, or a good human being. The above is to show you that every time it feels like the Muslim world is making progress, the country gets attacked with freedom bombs.
I HOPE that isn't all you took away from what I wrote, the destruction of a nation should have caught your attention.
comment by Kung Fu Cantona *JeSuisPalestinian* (U18082)
posted 10 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by LQ (U6305)
posted 1 day, 1 hour ago
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 11 minutes ago
If you work in the cesspit that is media, I suggest you stop using labels as America, West and Saudi Arabia, as you know as well as I do that the countries have little to with it. It is the chosen few, democraticallyelected or not that are the problems.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Haters going to hate
And he has so much hate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd rather pick up a camera rather than a rifle, I'm not a murderer and I won't gleefully back murder like some you who do so by turning a blind eye to our governments dealings.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please show me anywhere I have done that.
Like the other day when you called me an atheist you don't have a clue about me.
Yet you are transparent.
Kung Fu
Libya is so rich Gaddaffi wanted to influence the whole of east Africa with his currency, the guy who supplied the provos in ireland with guns and semtex, who's embassy staff killed a British policewoman and kept British diplomats hostage in Tripoli until those embassy staff where flown out of the UK, that blew up pan am 103 and who obliterated Misrata because, like the people of Homs, they objected to his reign. he was to be trusted to destabalise the WORLDS evonomies?
He might indeed have done great things but many dictators have done great things, that doesn't mean his people were happy, if they were happy they wouldn't have rose up against him.
Of course 'the west' is self interested but so are the more powerful Islamic states, Iran and Saudi Arabia. These countries don't live in isolation, they are part of the world, when they deem thrir sphere of influence is threatened they take military action, be It in Syria or Yemen.
Egypt's military receives a shedload of money from the US, its in their interest to maintain good links with the US. happy enough tontake the money in times of peace but they have to back away when the going gets sticky?Morsi, again a guy with good ideas but who wanted absolute power, wanted to be free of prosecution, to suspend egpyts constitution and decimate the military. The egyptian people took to the streets in protest as did the brotherhood in support, nothing to do with western intervention, it was an internal egyptian matter, the military ( a huge power in egyptian politics) gave him 2 days to water down his plans, he didnt, he underestimated the military he faced the consequences. I'm not saying its right or wrong but Morsi could still have been in power if he'd been less extreme, he could have been more astute, like Erdogan.
Kung Fu,
"This is the very reason why Plato suggested only educated people should be able to vote."
Plato was proposing an archetypal form of fascism though... so it seems at best contradictory to use Plato to back up an anti-Facist/Trump/Farage argument.
Honestly.
Sorry, dog with a bone here, but it really is nonsense to use Plato as a foundation for any anti-fascist argument. Amongst some of the 'ideals' that he advocated in The Republic were:
> Three tier class structure with limited social mobility.. the typical far-right belief in natural inequality.
> Censorship, including banishing certain art forms and types of music
> Benevolent dictatorship, where absolute power would sit in the hands of his so-called 'Philosopher King.'
> A rudimentary form of eugenics to weed out the disabled
> Education restricted to those in the top tier
> Lower classes limited to fulfilling state functions
Plato doubtless intended for his ideas to lead to the creation of his 'ideal' society, but does any of the above sound like a society in which any of us would want to live? By modern standards, the guy was a fascist.
comment by The Lambeau Leap (U21050)
posted 2 minutes ago
Sorry, dog with a bone here, but it really is nonsense to use Plato as a foundation for any anti-fascist argument. Amongst some of the 'ideals' that he advocated in The Republic were:
> Three tier class structure with limited social mobility.. the typical far-right belief in natural inequality.
> Censorship, including banishing certain art forms and types of music
> Benevolent dictatorship, where absolute power would sit in the hands of his so-called 'Philosopher King.'
> A rudimentary form of eugenics to weed out the disabled
> Education restricted to those in the top tier
> Lower classes limited to fulfilling state functions
Plato doubtless intended for his ideas to lead to the creation of his 'ideal' society, but does any of the above sound like a society in which any of us would want to live? By modern standards, the guy was a fascist.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think deep down we're all fascists in some way or another. Even Kung Fu.
I won't gleefully back murder like some you who do so by turning a blind eye to our governments dealings.
-
Come on Kung Fu, that's totally unreasonable. You're out of order to suggest that anyone here is backing murder. Nobody here can be held to account for UK foreign policy. That's the same nonsensical reasoning that has people suggesting that moderate Muslims are to blame, by their inaction, for radicalisation.
comment by The Lambeau Leap (U21050)
posted 5 minutes ago
I won't gleefully back murder like some you who do so by turning a blind eye to our governments dealings.
-
Come on Kung Fu, that's totally unreasonable. You're out of order to suggest that anyone here is backing murder. Nobody here can be held to account for UK foreign policy. That's the same nonsensical reasoning that has people suggesting that moderate Muslims are to blame, by their inaction, for radicalisation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And that single argument is why Kung Fu is a hypocrite. He's an intelligent guy but he's focused a lot of his rage in the wrong direction imo. He needs to meet people and his own ideas halfway rather than becoming the very thing he hates
comment by The Lambeau Leap (U21050)
posted 58 minutes ago
I won't gleefully back murder like some you who do so by turning a blind eye to our governments dealings.
-
Come on Kung Fu, that's totally unreasonable. You're out of order to suggest that anyone here is backing murder. Nobody here can be held to account for UK foreign policy. That's the same nonsensical reasoning that has people suggesting that moderate Muslims are to blame, by their inaction, for radicalisation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
His veneer is slipping he's showing his true colours with that comment.
He hates the west it's clear to see.
comment by LQ (U6305)
posted 4 hours, 14 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona *JeSuisPalestinian* (U18082)
posted 10 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by LQ (U6305)
posted 1 day, 1 hour ago
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 11 minutes ago
If you work in the cesspit that is media, I suggest you stop using labels as America, West and Saudi Arabia, as you know as well as I do that the countries have little to with it. It is the chosen few, democraticallyelected or not that are the problems.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Haters going to hate
And he has so much hate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd rather pick up a camera rather than a rifle, I'm not a murderer and I won't gleefully back murder like some you who do so by turning a blind eye to our governments dealings.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please show me anywhere I have done that.
Like the other day when you called me an atheist you don't have a clue about me.
Yet you are transparent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The very fact you use religion as a way out of layingbblame on this government or any other government in the west is turning a blind eye.
Religion didn't cause what happened in Libya, bombs and CIA funding did.
Now if Daesh bomb the tube tomorrow you'll be straight on here blaming religion or "interpretation" instead of looking at the route cause of all of this and it's western imperialism.
All you have are a few snide comments here and there, you can't even answer the questions put forward to you which leads me to believe you really haven't thought out your side of the argument.
The fact that you call Islamic State by their chosen name is even more weird. I suppose if they called themselves British Sharia State you'd go a long with that as well?
Lambeau
I used one example from Plato, it doesn't mean I believe in his entire philosophical approach in politics. Don't forget I'm a Muslim so his idea of a political structure is far away what I deem ethical/moral.
I'm not blaming anybody here for murder I'm blaming people for not seeing beyond the patriotism that blinds them.
It's the same kind of patriotism that makes people call soldiers heros without knowing anything about them. As long as they where the uniform they are heros and fighting for our freedom. Ridiculous!
Read Soldier Box by ex soldier Joe Glenton, he goes into detail about hero worship of our military. It allows them to literally get away with murder.
These are the things I will criticise the everyday person for.
Sign in if you want to comment
The U.S bombs Syria
Page 20 of 22
18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22
posted on 10/4/17
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 23 seconds ago
Or course we make money from selling war. And you and I benefit from that with free education, infrastructure, policing, health care, technological advancement, etc. In all honesty, you probably wouldn't be chatting online in your first world country if none of British history happened.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't want to benifit from it, that's why i try my best to campaign against it with my work. I'm in media so I also can't buy these products if I want to make a change.
It doesn't matter where I move to or what I do I'll be contributing to somebody else's suffering but I can at least try and reduce that suffering.
I could move to Morocco tomorrow but I'd still be living under another corrupt government. I'll carry on doing my best.
posted on 10/4/17
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 44 seconds ago
Libyans themselves rose up against Gaddafi, Syrians themselves rose up against Assad.same in Egypt, same in Tunisia...
The Islamic world gave us so much in philosophy, art, science and they have always been led by 'a strong man', be it under the Persians or more recently under individual dictators. All these dictators have been in the pocket of either the Russians or the Americans and lots of times they played one off against the other, now 'the people' want a say but, and its only an argument, they are not conditioned or educated enough in how democracy works or how they would like their version of 'people power' to work and the warlords and general's step into the vacuum and the cycle starts again with new faces and with new actors...Iran and Saudi Arabia filling the vacuum left by Russia's shrinking influence. The West isn't innocent but it's not the only negative force working within Islamic countries and in recent years it's again arguable that Iran and Saudi Arabia have exhacerbated the chaos more than America.
To consistently blame the west for the troubles in the middle east is yesterday's logic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How many people?
Sorry but there is so much information about the Arab spring which point to small factions causing the trouble, espeacially in Libya. Even American documentarians have produced evidence showing that it was only small numbers at these protests.
Egypt was a different matter, they were actually successful in overthrowing Mubarak and a significant number took to the streets.
What happened though?
They democracticlly elected the Muslim Brotherhood in, who I don't like.
They were overthrown illegally by Sisi with the support of America, trump just rolled out a red carpet for him.
Do you remember all of this happening?
posted on 10/4/17
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 10/4/17
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 10/4/17
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 11 minutes ago
If you work in the cesspit that is media, I suggest you stop using labels as America, West and Saudi Arabia, as you know as well as I do that the countries have little to with it. It is the chosen few, democraticallyelected or not that are the problems.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Haters going to hate
And he has so much hate
posted on 10/4/17
You reinforce my point, The Egyptians did elect the brotherhood but as per usual with those not used to democracy, they abused the faith and trust of the people. The power vacuum created by the self serving and disconnected brotherhood was filled by the military, further reaffirming the 'strong man' theory.
Might is right in the middle east. If that means cuddling up to The West to cement power that's what the leaders in that region will do. It's a 2-way street so not entirely the west fault.
posted on 10/4/17
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 2 hours, 12 minutes ago
Libyans themselves rose up against Gaddafi, Syrians themselves rose up against Assad.same in Egypt, same in Tunisia...
The Islamic world gave us so much in philosophy, art, science and they have always been led by 'a strong man', be it under the Persians or more recently under individual dictators. All these dictators have been in the pocket of either the Russians or the Americans and lots of times they played one off against the other, now 'the people' want a say but, and its only an argument, they are not conditioned or educated enough in how democracy works or how they would like their version of 'people power' to work and the warlords and general's step into the vacuum and the cycle starts again with new faces and with new actors...Iran and Saudi Arabia filling the vacuum left by Russia's shrinking influence. The West isn't innocent but it's not the only negative force working within Islamic countries and in recent years it's again arguable that Iran and Saudi Arabia have exhacerbated the chaos more than America.
To consistently blame the west for the troubles in the middle east is yesterday's logic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the most concise and coherent posts I have read, Hec!I salute you.
One further thought on the role of America under Obama from some reading today.
Barrack was the thinker who could not lead, whereas, Bush was a leader who could not think....and what was the Obama legacy?
After death and failure in Iraq, Libya and Kabul, Obama stepped back in Syria, for obvious reasons, and the UK agreed in the 2013 bombing vote.However, Obama allowed Russia to enter the void left by the USA, and prior to that, Obama allowed Isis to grow, creating the perfect messy storm in Syria.
Some generals and diplomats believe Obama could have limited the growth of Isis, and Russian influence from 2015 by Limited intervention, not necessarily sending in massive ground troops,,but using some force.
Now, we sadly have refugees spread all over, millions displaced, half a million dead and Russia and Iran acting big.......oh, and Isis!
Caught between another middle east war and doing nothing, Obama wobbled, and sat back way too much, and we are where we are today.
posted on 10/4/17
Kung in the media.
I despair😠
Balance anyone?
posted on 10/4/17
Great posting Just Shoot, Cal and Hec.
I even read some sense from KFC, among the partizan stuff😃
posted on 11/4/17
Here's an example of what happened in Libya to illustrate the treachery and greed of the American and European governments.
All you have to do after this, is apply the same desire to to erase human life, torture, plunder, divide and rape to every other country a single western bullet has been fired since the end of the 2nd World War.
On Libya:
"In a June 7, 2016 posting at Black Opinion, Bob Fitrakis wrote:
The real reasons for the attack have been dealt with most directly by America’s most famous reformed economic hitman, John Perkins.
Perkins points out that the attack on Libya, like the attack on Iraq, has to do with power and control of resources, not only oil, but gold. Libya has the highest standard of living in Africa. According to the IMF, Libya’s Central Bank is 100% state owned. The IMF estimates that the bank has nearly 144 tons of gold in its vaults, Perkins wrote.
NATO went there like modern Barbary Coast Pirates to loot Libya’s gold. The Russian media, in addition to Perkins, reported that the Pan-Africanist Qaddafi, the former President of the African Union, had been advocating that Africa use the gold so plentiful in Libya and South Africa to create an African currency based on a gold dinar.
It is significant that in the months running up to the UN resolution that allowed the U.S. and its allies to send troops into Libya, Muammar al-Qaddafi was openly advocating the creation of a new currency that would rival the dollar and the euro. In fact, he called upon African and Muslim nations to join an alliance that would make this new currency, the gold dinar, their primary form of money and foreign exchange. They would sell oil and other resources to the US and the rest of the world only for gold dinars, Perkins explained."
How well of were Libya?
"Prior to the fall of Gaddafi, oil-rich Libya had cash reserves of $150 billion, and there were 143 tons of gold in Gaddafi’s vaults."
How well of were it's people?
"According to a report titled “Gaddafi’s Libya Was Africa’s Most Prosperous Democracy” by Garikai Chengu that appeared in the January 12, 2013 edition of Countercurrents.org, “. . . Libya was divided into several small communities that were essentially “mini-autonomous States” within a State. These autonomous States had control over their districts and could make a range of decisions including how to allocate oil revenue and budgetary funds."
Chengu writes. “Unlike the West, Libyans did not vote once every four years for a President and local parliamentarian who would then make all decisions for them. Ordinary Libyans made decisions regarding foreign, domestic and economic policy themselves.” Toppling Gaddafi erased a system of government that had functioned smoothly—and fairly—for nearly half a century."
Because it isn't our type of democracy or government it is automatically demonised and freedom bombs begin to rain down of civilians and infrastructure.....
"On July 18, 2011 NATO targeted the Great Man-Made River, a massive irrigation project that brought water to thousands of acres of arid land. The warplanes that perpetrated this heinous act not only destroyed a vital piece of Libya’s infrastructure but on July 22, 2011 also destroyed a factory that according to Ellen Brown in her March 14, 2016 account for The Ecologist produced the only pipes necessary to repair it. This vicious, wanton devastation served no practical purpose whatsoever save for collectively punishing the Libyan people."
This exemplifies the evil western governments are capable of, it's cheerleaders like LQ and Bluebells who enable them to get away with it.
They'ed rather blame 'islamists' whatever that means instead of wasting a single breath on just once calling our government what it is and that's evil for aiding and abetting the desolation of Libya.
"Much has been written about the catastrophe visited upon Libya following the murderous attack by France and the US—400,000 people driven from their homes, an endless cycle of terror and reprisal, the creation of yet another failed state in the wake of a US foreign policy initiative. But the real damage was done to Africa itself, for had Gaddafi’s proposal for a trans-African banking system reached fruition, that unhappy continent for the first time in centuries would have had true freedom and real independence within its grasp, a circumstance the Western powers could not abide. Freedom and justice were never part of the West’s agenda."
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/10/05/the-dreadful-chronology-of-gaddafis-murder/
This is one source of hundreds you can check and re-check to determine what happened in Libya. Everything confirms that western military culture was at play again to extinguish the freedom, justice and more importantly the right to self determination of yet even more Arabs and Muslims for profit.
I then see some despicable characters on here totally in denial of what western governments are up to and decide to blame a religion and if you're bluebells support people like Farage who dehumanise refugees like the Libyans who want sanctuary in Britain even though we helped destroy their homes.
Then I see this...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/10/libya-partition-trump-administration-sebastian-gorka
The Trump administration busy trying to heap even more misery on the Libyans by dividing them further.
If Gaddafi wasn't assassinated North Africa had a likey chance of becoming united. North Africa had a chance of having a currency based on gold, not digits on a computer which has enslaved Africa and plunged the world into economic crises.
It would have given my relatives a chance of a good life in Morocco, instead they face the reality that only one country stands in the way of Daesh in Libya making their way to Morocco and that's Algeria.
How can the Muslim world get back up on it's fit like North Africa tried to when it just gets flattened with bombs? It can't.
Here's a pretty good prediction by Gaddafi before he died.
"It will be a huge disaster if al-Qaida takes over Libya. Al-Qaida would flood Europe with immigrants. We are the ones who prevent al-Qaida from taking over control. They would drag the whole region into chaos … Al-Qaida would take over north Africa."
By they way I forgot to mention we armed and supported the extremists running around Libya now killing everyone... not our fault.
posted on 11/4/17
comment by Hector (U3606)
posted 1 day, 1 hour ago
You reinforce my point, The Egyptians did elect the brotherhood but as per usual with those not used to democracy, they abused the faith and trust of the people. The power vacuum created by the self serving and disconnected brotherhood was filled by the military, further reaffirming the 'strong man' theory.
Might is right in the middle east. If that means cuddling up to The West to cement power that's what the leaders in that region will do. It's a 2-way street so not entirely the west fault.
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These people are hand picked by the west, they don't gain power then suck off America.
America gives them power and in return they are allowed to rape that country as much as they like.
FYI The Muslim Brotherhood weren't ousted because they abused the trust of the people, they were ousted because of a coup.
Wh could have been involved with that do you think? But then again the CIA also supported The Muslim Brotherhood at certain points.
See where I'm going with this?
posted on 11/4/17
comment by LQ (U6305)
posted 1 day, 1 hour ago
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 11 minutes ago
If you work in the cesspit that is media, I suggest you stop using labels as America, West and Saudi Arabia, as you know as well as I do that the countries have little to with it. It is the chosen few, democraticallyelected or not that are the problems.
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Haters going to hate
And he has so much hate
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I'd rather pick up a camera rather than a rifle, I'm not a murderer and I won't gleefully back murder like some you who do so by turning a blind eye to our governments dealings.
posted on 11/4/17
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 12/4/17
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 1 hour, 41 minutes ago
Is this actually a defence of Gaddafi?
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No, I have repeated constantly that there isn't a single leader in the Muslim world I like and that includes Gaddafi and Saddam.
I didn't refer to Gaddafi as a good leader a single time, or a good human being. The above is to show you that every time it feels like the Muslim world is making progress, the country gets attacked with freedom bombs.
I HOPE that isn't all you took away from what I wrote, the destruction of a nation should have caught your attention.
posted on 12/4/17
comment by Kung Fu Cantona *JeSuisPalestinian* (U18082)
posted 10 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by LQ (U6305)
posted 1 day, 1 hour ago
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 11 minutes ago
If you work in the cesspit that is media, I suggest you stop using labels as America, West and Saudi Arabia, as you know as well as I do that the countries have little to with it. It is the chosen few, democraticallyelected or not that are the problems.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Haters going to hate
And he has so much hate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd rather pick up a camera rather than a rifle, I'm not a murderer and I won't gleefully back murder like some you who do so by turning a blind eye to our governments dealings.
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Please show me anywhere I have done that.
Like the other day when you called me an atheist you don't have a clue about me.
Yet you are transparent.
posted on 12/4/17
Kung Fu
Libya is so rich Gaddaffi wanted to influence the whole of east Africa with his currency, the guy who supplied the provos in ireland with guns and semtex, who's embassy staff killed a British policewoman and kept British diplomats hostage in Tripoli until those embassy staff where flown out of the UK, that blew up pan am 103 and who obliterated Misrata because, like the people of Homs, they objected to his reign. he was to be trusted to destabalise the WORLDS evonomies?
He might indeed have done great things but many dictators have done great things, that doesn't mean his people were happy, if they were happy they wouldn't have rose up against him.
Of course 'the west' is self interested but so are the more powerful Islamic states, Iran and Saudi Arabia. These countries don't live in isolation, they are part of the world, when they deem thrir sphere of influence is threatened they take military action, be It in Syria or Yemen.
Egypt's military receives a shedload of money from the US, its in their interest to maintain good links with the US. happy enough tontake the money in times of peace but they have to back away when the going gets sticky?Morsi, again a guy with good ideas but who wanted absolute power, wanted to be free of prosecution, to suspend egpyts constitution and decimate the military. The egyptian people took to the streets in protest as did the brotherhood in support, nothing to do with western intervention, it was an internal egyptian matter, the military ( a huge power in egyptian politics) gave him 2 days to water down his plans, he didnt, he underestimated the military he faced the consequences. I'm not saying its right or wrong but Morsi could still have been in power if he'd been less extreme, he could have been more astute, like Erdogan.
posted on 12/4/17
Hector
posted on 12/4/17
Kung Fu,
"This is the very reason why Plato suggested only educated people should be able to vote."
Plato was proposing an archetypal form of fascism though... so it seems at best contradictory to use Plato to back up an anti-Facist/Trump/Farage argument.
Honestly.
posted on 12/4/17
Sorry, dog with a bone here, but it really is nonsense to use Plato as a foundation for any anti-fascist argument. Amongst some of the 'ideals' that he advocated in The Republic were:
> Three tier class structure with limited social mobility.. the typical far-right belief in natural inequality.
> Censorship, including banishing certain art forms and types of music
> Benevolent dictatorship, where absolute power would sit in the hands of his so-called 'Philosopher King.'
> A rudimentary form of eugenics to weed out the disabled
> Education restricted to those in the top tier
> Lower classes limited to fulfilling state functions
Plato doubtless intended for his ideas to lead to the creation of his 'ideal' society, but does any of the above sound like a society in which any of us would want to live? By modern standards, the guy was a fascist.
posted on 12/4/17
comment by The Lambeau Leap (U21050)
posted 2 minutes ago
Sorry, dog with a bone here, but it really is nonsense to use Plato as a foundation for any anti-fascist argument. Amongst some of the 'ideals' that he advocated in The Republic were:
> Three tier class structure with limited social mobility.. the typical far-right belief in natural inequality.
> Censorship, including banishing certain art forms and types of music
> Benevolent dictatorship, where absolute power would sit in the hands of his so-called 'Philosopher King.'
> A rudimentary form of eugenics to weed out the disabled
> Education restricted to those in the top tier
> Lower classes limited to fulfilling state functions
Plato doubtless intended for his ideas to lead to the creation of his 'ideal' society, but does any of the above sound like a society in which any of us would want to live? By modern standards, the guy was a fascist.
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I think deep down we're all fascists in some way or another. Even Kung Fu.
posted on 12/4/17
I won't gleefully back murder like some you who do so by turning a blind eye to our governments dealings.
-
Come on Kung Fu, that's totally unreasonable. You're out of order to suggest that anyone here is backing murder. Nobody here can be held to account for UK foreign policy. That's the same nonsensical reasoning that has people suggesting that moderate Muslims are to blame, by their inaction, for radicalisation.
posted on 12/4/17
comment by The Lambeau Leap (U21050)
posted 5 minutes ago
I won't gleefully back murder like some you who do so by turning a blind eye to our governments dealings.
-
Come on Kung Fu, that's totally unreasonable. You're out of order to suggest that anyone here is backing murder. Nobody here can be held to account for UK foreign policy. That's the same nonsensical reasoning that has people suggesting that moderate Muslims are to blame, by their inaction, for radicalisation.
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And that single argument is why Kung Fu is a hypocrite. He's an intelligent guy but he's focused a lot of his rage in the wrong direction imo. He needs to meet people and his own ideas halfway rather than becoming the very thing he hates
posted on 12/4/17
comment by The Lambeau Leap (U21050)
posted 58 minutes ago
I won't gleefully back murder like some you who do so by turning a blind eye to our governments dealings.
-
Come on Kung Fu, that's totally unreasonable. You're out of order to suggest that anyone here is backing murder. Nobody here can be held to account for UK foreign policy. That's the same nonsensical reasoning that has people suggesting that moderate Muslims are to blame, by their inaction, for radicalisation.
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His veneer is slipping he's showing his true colours with that comment.
He hates the west it's clear to see.
posted on 12/4/17
comment by LQ (U6305)
posted 4 hours, 14 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona *JeSuisPalestinian* (U18082)
posted 10 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by LQ (U6305)
posted 1 day, 1 hour ago
comment by Just Shoot (U10408)
posted 11 minutes ago
If you work in the cesspit that is media, I suggest you stop using labels as America, West and Saudi Arabia, as you know as well as I do that the countries have little to with it. It is the chosen few, democraticallyelected or not that are the problems.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Haters going to hate
And he has so much hate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd rather pick up a camera rather than a rifle, I'm not a murderer and I won't gleefully back murder like some you who do so by turning a blind eye to our governments dealings.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please show me anywhere I have done that.
Like the other day when you called me an atheist you don't have a clue about me.
Yet you are transparent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The very fact you use religion as a way out of layingbblame on this government or any other government in the west is turning a blind eye.
Religion didn't cause what happened in Libya, bombs and CIA funding did.
Now if Daesh bomb the tube tomorrow you'll be straight on here blaming religion or "interpretation" instead of looking at the route cause of all of this and it's western imperialism.
All you have are a few snide comments here and there, you can't even answer the questions put forward to you which leads me to believe you really haven't thought out your side of the argument.
The fact that you call Islamic State by their chosen name is even more weird. I suppose if they called themselves British Sharia State you'd go a long with that as well?
posted on 12/4/17
Lambeau
I used one example from Plato, it doesn't mean I believe in his entire philosophical approach in politics. Don't forget I'm a Muslim so his idea of a political structure is far away what I deem ethical/moral.
I'm not blaming anybody here for murder I'm blaming people for not seeing beyond the patriotism that blinds them.
It's the same kind of patriotism that makes people call soldiers heros without knowing anything about them. As long as they where the uniform they are heros and fighting for our freedom. Ridiculous!
Read Soldier Box by ex soldier Joe Glenton, he goes into detail about hero worship of our military. It allows them to literally get away with murder.
These are the things I will criticise the everyday person for.
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