comment by NPEssimism (U22712)
posted 11 seconds ago
'If Putin does go close to or over Poland or other NATO borders, then NATO has to fight, according to their charter, so I can understand why Ukraine asks, why not for us now?'

You answered you're own question - Ukraine is not in NATO.

Second - when you look at flimsy spending and general rapid expansion of NATO post 90s I dont think many people who signed up to the pledges ever thought they'd be invoked.

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I realise Ukraine is not in NATO, but that will not be a reason to watch Ukraine suffer day after day, imo.

I did not want UK or USA troops involved, but things change.

comment by NPEssimism (U22712)
posted 2 minutes ago
'If Putin does go close to or over Poland or other NATO borders, then NATO has to fight, according to their charter, so I can understand why Ukraine asks, why not for us now?'

You answered you're own question - Ukraine is not in NATO.

Second - when you look at flimsy spending and general rapid expansion of NATO post 90s I dont think many people who signed up to the pledges ever thought they'd be invoked.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair points in second paragraph, bud.

comment by Jonah Bluey TBAB (U22816)
posted 23 seconds ago
comment by NPEssimism (U22712)
posted 11 seconds ago
'If Putin does go close to or over Poland or other NATO borders, then NATO has to fight, according to their charter, so I can understand why Ukraine asks, why not for us now?'

You answered you're own question - Ukraine is not in NATO.

Second - when you look at flimsy spending and general rapid expansion of NATO post 90s I dont think many people who signed up to the pledges ever thought they'd be invoked.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
I realise Ukraine is not in NATO, but that will not be a reason to watch Ukraine suffer day after day, imo.

I did not want UK or USA troops involved, but things change.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

We literally sign military deals with Saudi Arabia while they impose comparable suffering on Yemen.

Russian's invasion of Ukraine is an act of brutal barbarism, but simply put - I am not prepared to risk world war three over the fate of any country other than my own.

comment by 🇺🇦 Boris 'Inky' Gibson 🇺🇦 (U5901)
posted 3 hours, 37 minutes ago
comment by 4zA - 🇮🇹🇺🇦 no al calcio moderno (U22472)
posted 36 seconds ago
comment by son of quebec (U8127)
posted 31 minutes ago
BTW Sammy Hagar performed a song in 1984 called
I Can't Drive 55.
Because that had been the law in the US since the oil embargo of the early 70s.
Because it saves fuel.
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It really does

The difference b-tween drive 55 n 60 is huge in gas milage thingy
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Your average American car does about 12 miles to the gallon though.
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Porsche Cayenne I had did 16mpg, V8, but converted to LPG at 64p a litre, but traded it in last year, now £1.64 for unleaded....Putin is a bassa and that blaady Brexit thingy.

I think Putin thought he and his gang of infiltrators thought they’d done a good enough job of dividing the west that when the time came to invade Ukraine the rest of the world would be too busy sorting out their own shiiiit to stand up to him and now he’s realised he’s not quite succeeded as he underestimated how a common cause can bring together huge swathes or people. Thank fack Trump didn’t get in power again.

I can totally understand smaller nations who share borders with Russia, wanting to join NATO.

Being outside NATO poses an existential threat to their sovereignty and independence. Some like the Baltic states have seen massive improvements in standards of living with having strong ties to the west, especially compared with other Eastern block countries.

There is an obvious downside too. But I really do sympathise with their reasons to join. As much as NATO is problematic, I am rather glad that these nations do have our support.

comment by Jonah Bluey TBAB (U22816)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by NPEssimism (U22712)
posted 2 minutes ago
'If Putin does go close to or over Poland or other NATO borders, then NATO has to fight, according to their charter, so I can understand why Ukraine asks, why not for us now?'

You answered you're own question - Ukraine is not in NATO.

Second - when you look at flimsy spending and general rapid expansion of NATO post 90s I dont think many people who signed up to the pledges ever thought they'd be invoked.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair points in second paragraph, bud.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Given what’s potentially at stake, I do even wonder if NATO would automatically get involved militarily if Putin did go into Poland or something - they might still try some other way. Putin may well be banking on NATO’s weakness, sanity, call it what you will - their reluctance to potentially trigger a nuclear war.

But, as I said, I personally think NATO will end up intervening sooner or later. I fear that a horrible chain of events is in motion and the question isn’t where it will take us but how far.

comment by NPEssimism (U22712)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Jonah Bluey TBAB (U22816)
posted 23 seconds ago
comment by NPEssimism (U22712)
posted 11 seconds ago
'If Putin does go close to or over Poland or other NATO borders, then NATO has to fight, according to their charter, so I can understand why Ukraine asks, why not for us now?'

You answered you're own question - Ukraine is not in NATO.

Second - when you look at flimsy spending and general rapid expansion of NATO post 90s I dont think many people who signed up to the pledges ever thought they'd be invoked.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
I realise Ukraine is not in NATO, but that will not be a reason to watch Ukraine suffer day after day, imo.

I did not want UK or USA troops involved, but things change.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

We literally sign military deals with Saudi Arabia while they impose comparable suffering on Yemen.

Russian's invasion of Ukraine is an act of brutal barbarism, but simply put - I am not prepared to risk world war three over the fate of any country other than my own.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Totally agree on western military supplies and cosy relationship with Saudis, who also kill dissenters and use proxy war; this exposes the hypocrisy among our leaders.

I also stil hold back from NATO fighting Putin on land or air over Ukraine and get your point.

However, as weeks or months go by and we witness death and destruction, matters may take on a life of their own, which could end Putin, or badly for us all?

comment by Clockwork Red: Jadon and the Argonauts (U4892)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Jonah Bluey TBAB (U22816)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by NPEssimism (U22712)
posted 2 minutes ago
'If Putin does go close to or over Poland or other NATO borders, then NATO has to fight, according to their charter, so I can understand why Ukraine asks, why not for us now?'

You answered you're own question - Ukraine is not in NATO.

Second - when you look at flimsy spending and general rapid expansion of NATO post 90s I dont think many people who signed up to the pledges ever thought they'd be invoked.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair points in second paragraph, bud.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Given what’s potentially at stake, I do even wonder if NATO would automatically get involved militarily if Putin did go into Poland or something - they might still try some other way. Putin may well be banking on NATO’s weakness, sanity, call it what you will - their reluctance to potentially trigger a nuclear war.

But, as I said, I personally think NATO will end up intervening sooner or later. I fear that a horrible chain of events is in motion and the question isn’t where it will take us but how far.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I’m sure there would be people who would argue that Poland is sufficiently far enough away to let Russia have without British/French/Spanish lives being lost. Eventually the nuclear bluff will have to be called as Putin could make that threat and go as far west as he likes. Logically speaking he wouldn’t use nukes as it’s a suicide mission and most Russian generals would surely put a bullet in him instead of losing their country to thousands of missiles.

comment by Clockwork Red: Jadon and the Argonauts (U4892)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Jonah Bluey TBAB (U22816)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by NPEssimism (U22712)
posted 2 minutes ago
'If Putin does go close to or over Poland or other NATO borders, then NATO has to fight, according to their charter, so I can understand why Ukraine asks, why not for us now?'

You answered you're own question - Ukraine is not in NATO.

Second - when you look at flimsy spending and general rapid expansion of NATO post 90s I dont think many people who signed up to the pledges ever thought they'd be invoked.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair points in second paragraph, bud.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Given what’s potentially at stake, I do even wonder if NATO would automatically get involved militarily if Putin did go into Poland or something - they might still try some other way. Putin may well be banking on NATO’s weakness, sanity, call it what you will - their reluctance to potentially trigger a nuclear war.

But, as I said, I personally think NATO will end up intervening sooner or later. I fear that a horrible chain of events is in motion and the question isn’t where it will take us but how far.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I depressingly concur, fwiw😰

I also realise how the west has just left Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, the Kurds who fought Isis, etc so have a cynical or realistic view of our leaders.

comment by Jonah Bluey TBAB (U22816)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by NPEssimism (U22712)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Jonah Bluey TBAB (U22816)
posted 23 seconds ago
comment by NPEssimism (U22712)
posted 11 seconds ago
'If Putin does go close to or over Poland or other NATO borders, then NATO has to fight, according to their charter, so I can understand why Ukraine asks, why not for us now?'

You answered you're own question - Ukraine is not in NATO.

Second - when you look at flimsy spending and general rapid expansion of NATO post 90s I dont think many people who signed up to the pledges ever thought they'd be invoked.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
I realise Ukraine is not in NATO, but that will not be a reason to watch Ukraine suffer day after day, imo.

I did not want UK or USA troops involved, but things change.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

We literally sign military deals with Saudi Arabia while they impose comparable suffering on Yemen.

Russian's invasion of Ukraine is an act of brutal barbarism, but simply put - I am not prepared to risk world war three over the fate of any country other than my own.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Totally agree on western military supplies and cosy relationship with Saudis, who also kill dissenters and use proxy war; this exposes the hypocrisy among our leaders.

I also stil hold back from NATO fighting Putin on land or air over Ukraine and get your point.

However, as weeks or months go by and we witness death and destruction, matters may take on a life of their own, which could end Putin, or badly for us all?



----------------------------------------------------------------------

It would still end badly for us all.

Incidentally - the UK couldn't even commit a few thousand troops to Afghanistan when the US withdrew - not sure we are tooled up for WW3.

It's a good question though - anyone in favour of airstrikes: if it leads to WW3 and all men aged 18-60 are asked to fight, are you going to sign up?

Any luck with your old tbbab account ?

comment by Robbb Kanchelskis 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦 RIP Warney 🏏 (U22716)
posted 16 seconds ago
comment by Clockwork Red: Jadon and the Argonauts (U4892)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Jonah Bluey TBAB (U22816)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by NPEssimism (U22712)
posted 2 minutes ago
'If Putin does go close to or over Poland or other NATO borders, then NATO has to fight, according to their charter, so I can understand why Ukraine asks, why not for us now?'

You answered you're own question - Ukraine is not in NATO.

Second - when you look at flimsy spending and general rapid expansion of NATO post 90s I dont think many people who signed up to the pledges ever thought they'd be invoked.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair points in second paragraph, bud.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Given what’s potentially at stake, I do even wonder if NATO would automatically get involved militarily if Putin did go into Poland or something - they might still try some other way. Putin may well be banking on NATO’s weakness, sanity, call it what you will - their reluctance to potentially trigger a nuclear war.

But, as I said, I personally think NATO will end up intervening sooner or later. I fear that a horrible chain of events is in motion and the question isn’t where it will take us but how far.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I’m sure there would be people who would argue that Poland is sufficiently far enough away to let Russia have without British/French/Spanish lives being lost. Eventually the nuclear bluff will have to be called as Putin could make that threat and go as far west as he likes. Logically speaking he wouldn’t use nukes as it’s a suicide mission and most Russian generals would surely put a bullet in him instead of losing their country to thousands of missiles.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I’m increasingly uncertain that Putin wouldn’t use nuclear weapons. It’s obviously the most powerful bluff you could possibly make, so there’s that, but I wonder if he’d have dared go this far if he wasn’t prepared to fire at least the the first one. I was reading yesterday how he might see a smaller nuclear weapon as de-escalation rather than escalation, as it could make NATO back off. For all our misgivings, morally and otherwise, about NATO and the West, I’m sure they’re at least less nihilistic than Putin and he is probably banking on them to show a restraint that he won’t.

I did listen to a military expert say the reason the US cut short the Poland mig ‘trade’ was because the Ukrainian air defence is doing a good enough job without extra planes being sent and that the Ukrainians still have quite a few planes left anyway. The best case scenario is Ukraine holding their own and making Russia fall back and realise they’ve facked up. On the other hand, if Russia get desperate and start using chemical weapons surely the West will have to step in. Or even better yet, China flex their muscle

comment by Black Hawk (U16342)
posted 6 minutes ago
I can totally understand smaller nations who share borders with Russia, wanting to join NATO.

Being outside NATO poses an existential threat to their sovereignty and independence. Some like the Baltic states have seen massive improvements in standards of living with having strong ties to the west, especially compared with other Eastern block countries.

There is an obvious downside too. But I really do sympathise with their reasons to join. As much as NATO is problematic, I am rather glad that these nations do have our support.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
NATO acts as a massive comfort blanket in that respect.

I have only recently discovered that Finland despatched a Kremlin invasion, as did China in 1905, and of course Taliban defeated them, and the west, so Moscow has a poor offensive military record, but defends itself well, as seen with Stalingrad and the natzi invasion failing.

Lessons Putin never learned as he read about Peter the Great during COVID lockdown, and why Putin invading Ukraine has emboldened Ukraine against him, as people fight hard to protect themselves, but moral is weaker for the aggressor.

I never knew chemical weapons was such a sticking point - considering we went into Iraq on partially that basis and were criticised, but didn't invade Syria on that basis and were criticised.

Japan in 1905 tbab

Russia has been invaded countless times btw.

It is not a popular thing to say on here amid the escalating devastation in Ukraine, but the general missed opportunity to rebuild Russia following the collapse of the USSR is deeply regrettable and in many ways what is happening now is a tragedy for Russia too.

comment by Admin1 (U1)
posted 1 minute ago
Any luck with your old tbbab account ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No bud, I did not try the old password, as got fed up fighting with it, but can if you wish tomorrow, after work.

Twelve odd Years ago I logged on with wife's email address and passwords changed, so I just used my own email and new password here this week.

Is that ok, bud...not breaking the rules?
.

comment by NPEssimism (U22712)
posted 3 minutes ago
Japan in 1905 tbab
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't laugh, but boy in Belfast pub mentioned that and Finland last night, while I supped tea watching Hammers.

Is it nonsense?

comment by Jonah Bluey TBAB (U22816)
posted 32 seconds ago
comment by NPEssimism (U22712)
posted 3 minutes ago
Japan in 1905 tbab
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't laugh, but boy in Belfast pub mentioned that and Finland last night, while I supped tea watching Hammers.

Is it nonsense?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Japan’s victory in the Russo-Japanese war was the first time a European power had been defeated by an Asian one

russo-japanese war 1904-5

Humiliating and unexpected Russian defeat - led to the 1905 Russian revolution and October Manifesto which were both quenched but set stage for both 1917 revolutions

comment by NPEssimism (U22712)
posted 5 minutes ago
I never knew chemical weapons was such a sticking point - considering we went into Iraq on partially that basis and were criticised, but didn't invade Syria on that basis and were criticised.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
True, I remember seeing some stop the war activists moan about ousting Saddam, but not ousting Assad, while Aleppo burned, with Putin help.

Abbott, Independent Corbyn, McDonnell, Burgon etc recently signed a letter opposing NATO expansion east and western military intervention at a Stop the War meeting, in relation to the Ukraine war, as Jezza spoke at the Conway hall, and a guy waving a Ukrainian flag rushed in, only to be led away.

Starmer did get the Labour MPs to toe the line and bin this letter, but Corbyn and Claudia Webb as independents are beyond his reach now.

comment by palmers_spur (U8896)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Jonah Bluey TBAB (U22816)
posted 32 seconds ago
comment by NPEssimism (U22712)
posted 3 minutes ago
Japan in 1905 tbab
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't laugh, but boy in Belfast pub mentioned that and Finland last night, while I supped tea watching Hammers.

Is it nonsense?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Japan’s victory in the Russo-Japanese war was the first time a European power had been defeated by an Asian one
----------------------------------------------------------------------
👍

The boy in the pub knows his stuff, and is a long suffering Evertonian.

comment by Jonah Bluey TBAB (U22816)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by Admin1 (U1)
posted 1 minute ago
Any luck with your old tbbab account ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No bud, I did not try the old password, as got fed up fighting with it, but can if you wish tomorrow, after work.

Twelve odd Years ago I logged on with wife's email address and passwords changed, so I just used my own email and new password here this week.

Is that ok, bud...not breaking the rules?
.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nah, jus there is a stigma with high IDs I can flip the details between accountayif you like?